Author Topic: Inconsistent literacy  (Read 2246 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Inconsistent literacy
« Reply #18 on: Monday 29 January 18 18:40 GMT (UK) »
So many of you have set my mind at rest. It was niggling me because I've never seen an example of it anywhere else in my family history, people either sign with marks all their lives or signatures all their lives.

I've enjoyed the stories and suggested reasons. I suppose eyesight could also have been a reason for people who could sign changing to marks.
No National Health spectacles in those days. Probably no opticians either.
Cowban

Offline pharmaT

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Re: Inconsistent literacy
« Reply #19 on: Tuesday 30 January 18 05:44 GMT (UK) »
I have an ancestor whom I know was literate (he was a schoolmaster) yet on some certificates he signed with 'his mark'.  As other people have said it was very uncommon to question authority.  My Mum very much has that attitude 'just told what you're told'. These days they show you what has been entered on certificates before saving and printing.  My mum was horrified that I told the registrar she'd spelt my name wrong on my daughter's birth certificate and asked her to change it.
Campbell, Dunn, Dickson, Fell, Forest, Norie, Pratt, Somerville, Thompson, Tyler among others

Offline CelticAnnie

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Re: Inconsistent literacy
« Reply #20 on: Wednesday 31 January 18 17:08 GMT (UK) »
What a fascinating thread! 

My ggg grandfather made his mark when registering his marriage (as did his bride) in 1782; but in 1822 signs a legal document with his name (as do all his children and his daughters' husbands).  His father, named Owen Davies, at his marriage in 1754, writes a very child-like signature of 'OwenOwen' (his first name repeated) -- as if he had had some rudimentary education at some stage but had done no writing since so that he had in part forgotten how to write his name; and then he sets his mark after that signature, too. 

I find the suggestions made by others that our ancestors frequently just did as they were told when invited to 'make their mark' by clergymen very convincing.

Something that has always intrigued me is whether the inability to write (even where that is known to be definitely the case) necessarily reflected that one also could not read.  Nowadays, given that these two skills are taught together at an early age, it is easy to slip into thinking that of course it does; but I suspect (although with no hard evidence to support it) that that may not necessarily always have been the case.  Being able to read (particularly the Bible) would surely have been of far greater importance to many folk in our history than being able to write.

CELTICANNIE
PEPLOE/PEPLOW: Shropshire, Inverness
DAVIES: Inverness, Montgomeryshire, Ruabon
OWEN: Edinburgh, Aberystwyth, Middlesex, Essex, Kendal, Berwick, Montgomeryshire
TROLLOPE: Warwickshire, Middlesex
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Offline Dinkydidy

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Re: Inconsistent literacy
« Reply #21 on: Thursday 01 February 18 00:09 GMT (UK) »
Being able to write only one's signature - in whatever form - may well be the coming thing. Where I live (South Australia) schools are no longer teaching cursive handwriting, and some of my well-educated, middle-aged children do not use it either. Keyboards and text-speak are rapidly making handwriting of any kind obsolete.

Didy


Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Inconsistent literacy
« Reply #22 on: Thursday 01 February 18 19:45 GMT (UK) »

 I find the suggestions made by others that our ancestors frequently just did as they were told when invited to 'make their mark' by clergymen very convincing.

Something that has always intrigued me is whether the inability to write (even where that is known to be definitely the case) necessarily reflected that one also could not read.  Nowadays, given that these two skills are taught together at an early age, it is easy to slip into thinking that of course it does; but I suspect (although with no hard evidence to support it) that that may not necessarily always have been the case.  Being able to read (particularly the Bible) would surely have been of far greater importance to many folk in our history than being able to write.

CELTICANNIE
I have the example of a soldier (1888) making his mark when he married, as did bride and both witnesses. A few years later he'd left the army and become a postman, so he could obviously read, or had learned in the meantime.
A report of an inspection of an elementary school in early 19thC Preston, Lancs stated that the boys could write on their slates but when they were given pen, ink & paper their efforts were very poor. The school charged 3d a week per pupil, who had to be clean and neatly dressed, so was attended by working-class children whose families had a few pence spare each week for schooling and could afford soap & water for washing. Later the same school opened a department for older/ more advanced/slightly better-off children, charging 4d, including cost of paper and books. Some pupils wouldn't have progressed beyond the writing on slates stage; some may not even have got so far. A later log book of the same school a few decades later during the Lancashire Cotton Famine mentions children not being able to attend school because their clothes had been pawned. The school roll went down when mills reopened and required older boys and girls. Before compulsory education schooling was sporadic for some children.

A report to Parliament (C1840) on employment of children in mines: (I've quoted this before on RC.)
One Scottish mine owner said he only employed boys who could read and who could write their names. He made them read an application form and sign it in his presence. It was also a way of checking they were old enough to work.
Some Scottish mines stopped a few pence from every adult man's wage for schooling of his child. If he had no child he could nominate a child belonging to someone else. A problem with this system was that the shools were so overcrowded the schoolmaster found it difficult to teach the pupils much. One school inspection found that it was standing-room only. No room to practise writing at that school, they had no desks, only benches on which they stood for lessons.


 
Cowban