Help with finding Thomas HAINES (1820), John HAINES (1820) William HAINES

[Chev]

Hi solidrock, thank you very much for contacting them, I wouldn't have thought of that 

And their reply is interesting because I spent a good chunk of yesterday back at the library trying to find more military records for him and didn't find any new original documents (just clearer versions and all listed under service number 7841).

I found the following for service number 17136 which shows he died at "home" but there was not an original document. (supports the idea he may not have served overseas per your info)

The info that you found initially proves that service number 17136 is linked to Annie Griffiths (nee Jones) at Heelis Street which is in turn linked to service number 7841 which clearly shows his spouse as Annie Griffiths at Heelis Street - so I'm deducing it's the same Mont GRIFFITHS (despite the curly stories about his age - maybe he knew he was ill and older and wanted to shave some years off and had a burning desire to enlist ....).

I will order a death certificate and let you know - and hopefully solve the mystery.

I have more questions (or "things to ponder" for you) in relation to this and will post these next (need to find my info first)

[Chev]

Some things to ponder.... Mont GRIFFITHS

1. Tattoo
I have attached a clearer document showing details about tattoo - do you think it says HMS IRIS (as in a ship / boat?)

2. Religion
On his he was marked as Roman Catholic but buried in a Church of England cemetery?

3. Discharge
I have attached a clearer document relating to his discharge on 31/10/1914

4. Annie's letter (previously attached)
She wrote this on 13th November 1914 (after he was discharged 31/10/1914). Would he have been back home by then? Or perhaps she was unaware that he had been discharged? Or perhaps he's off enlisting in the Lancashire Fusiliers? Maybe he never returned home (to Manchester) before he died? Any thoughts?

5. Places of abode
I've summarised where I think he was living (there are some holes), he seemed to live somewhere different every year - would this have been common to jump around so much (when I look at a map all of the streets are relatively close). I'm guessing that they were probably quite poor, had very few possessions and for some reason (maybe affordability / employment) kept having to vacate and move (doesn't sound very nice)

- 1881 CENSUS - 2 Winson Street, Birmingham, Warwickshire, England (possibly with parents listed as "Shant")
- 1891 CENSUS - ?
- 1895 MARRIAGE - 6 Haughton Court Cross Street, Manchester, England
- 1897 RATES BOOKS - 5 Silver Street, Manchetser Township
- 1899 BAPTISM (son Thomas Griffiths) - Cheltenham Street, Collyhurst, Manchester, England
- 1900 RATES BOOKS - 8 Buckingham Street, Manchetser Township
- 1901 CENSUS - ?
- 1901 BAPTISM (son Joseph Griffiths) - 58 Montague Street, Collyhurst, Manchester, England
- 1903 BAPTISM (daughter Esther Griffiths) - 7 North Kent Street, Collyhurst, Manchester, England
- 1906 BAPTISM (son Alfred Griffiths) - 29 Francisco Street, Collyhurst, Manchester, England
- 1908 BAPTISM (son Montague Griffiths) - 37 Burton Street, Collyhurst, Manchester, England
- 1910 BAPTISM (son Henry Griffiths) - 5 Burton's Buildings, Collyhurst Road, Collyhurst, Manchester, England
- 1911 CENSUS - 20 Heelis Street Manchester (Rochdale Road), Manchester, Lancashire, England
- 1912 BAPTISM (daughter Elizabeth Griffiths) - 152 Montague Street, Collyhurst, Manchester, England
- 1914 WWI RECORDS - 19 Heelis Street, Buckley Street, Rochdale Road, Manchester, England

6. Children listed on war records

Elizabeth ("Lizzie") GRIFFITHS - I was able to find her birth / baptism records as she was born after 1911 (and didn't appear on the 1911 CENSUS). I have copies if you're interested.

Henry GRIFFITHS - I was able to find a possible death record for him as he did appear on the 1911 CENSUS records and should have been on the 1914 War Records but was absent.

Esther GRIFFITHS - using her birth date listed on war records I found that she married a Thomas CONNOLLY (found marriage certificate) and I found her and a child in 1939 CENSUS. (Not sure what happened to Thomas CONNOLLY in 1939 CENSUS as he doesn't appear with them and she is listed as married not a widow). My understanding is that the women and children were moved out of the cities (for safety) due to the impending WWII. I am quite excited to see where this branch leads as perhaps I'll find a "non-dead" person...


Happy pondering....

[solidrock]

I'll start with No.1.  There were 8 HMS Iris's but the one that fits the time scale is this one.

HMS Iris was an Iris-class second-class cruiser of the Royal Navy. The Iris-class ships were the first all-steel ships to serve with the Royal Navy and were employed as armed dispatch vessels. She had a double bottom and her Maudslay machinery produced 7,300 hp (5,400 kW), slightly less than her sister ship HMS Mercury, but her 17.35 knots (32.13 km/h) still made her one of the fastest ships of her day. Mercury was identical in most respects, though she had an upright stem and a different arrangement of head sail.

She was laid down at the Pembroke Dockyard on 10 November 1875, launched on 12 April 1877 and completed on 18 April 1879. She was commissioned on 27 April 1880 and her first commander was Captain Edward Seymour, with Lieutenant Robert Archer as First Lieutenant. She served in the Mediterranean from 1879 to 1887, then in the Portsmouth Reserve from 1887 to 1903. She was a tender to HMS St Vincent in 1903 and 1904 and was sold off in 1905.

ADDED     On his short service record there is a question, "Have you ever served in the Royal Navy"   to which he answered "no". So did he or did'nt he?

[solidrock]

Regarding Mont's discharge there is an interesting hand written sentence at the top, I think it reads...

"If a non European soldier of troops in the colonies considered unlikely to become an efficient soldier"

I know he was born in Birmingham but were his parents non european. The only marriage I can find for a Griffiths to a Whitchurch is this one...


Rev. Edward James Griffiths  married  Annie Whitechurch.  April 1864  Chesterton, Cambridgeshire.

Thats on Familysearch and uploaded by a member so it may not be correct, as I can't find the record.   

[solidrock]

Regarding his religion and burial, Philip's Park Cemetery is for all denominations.

Shant Griffith. I don't think thats Mont.

[Chev]

Hi solidrock,

I have Mont GRIFFITHS and Annie JONES marriage certificate, it shows his father as Thomas Edward Griffiths, occupation "filler/filer" (?) . I'll keep searching through what I have in terms of identifying his parents and origin.

I suppose we may never know about HMS IRIS and whether he did or didn't serve (whether he told another curly or not). How would I go about getting records for HMS IRIS? Maybe the tattoo doesn't say that? Would you get a tattoo if you didn't serve on it?

I think I found the record between Edwards James and Annie Whitechurch. If his occupation was a reverend then I don't think (?) this is Mont's father who was a "filler/filer"

I'll be back 

[Chev]

I'm back.

I believe this is the CENSUS information for Mont's parents and siblings (for 1861, 1871 and 1881. I can't find them in 1891  ). I also cannot find a marriage between his parents Esther (WHITCHURCH?) and Thomas Edward GRIFFITHS (so incredibly frustrating). When you get to the 1881 Census I believe what has been transcribed is not entirely accurate and that Mont has been incorrectly transcribed as Shant. I can't find a clearer copy of the 1881 original - this would help.

I'll post more info on Esther and Thomas's children next showing that they all tie into the surname WHITCHURCH.

[Chev]

 1881 - best of luck reading this 

[Chev]

I believe the following are the children of Esther WHITCHURCH and Thomas Edward GRIFFITHS (can't find a marriage):

There was an Aquila Griffiths born in 1854 (OCT-DEC QTR) in Bristol, Gloucestershire, England. Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH GRO Reference: 1854  D Quarter in BRISTOL  Volume 06A  Page 11. There was an Aquila Griffiths died in 1855 (APR-JUN QTR) in Gloucester, Gloucestershire, England aged 0 years born approx 1854/1855. He would have been 9 months old or less. GRO Reference: 1855  J Quarter in GLOUCESTER  Volume 06A  Page 178

There is an Albert John Griffiths born in 1856 (APR-JUN QTR) in Cardiff, Glamorganshire, Wales. Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH GRO Reference: 1856  J Quarter in CARDIFF  Volume 11A  Page 249

There was a Theodore Griffiths born in 1857 (OCT-DEC QTR) in  Buckingham, Buckinghamshire, England. Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH GRO Reference: 1857  D Quarter in BUCKINGHAM Volume 03A  Page 458. There was a Theodore Griffiths died in 1860 (OCT-DEC QTR) in Warrington, Lancashire, England aged 3 years born approx 1857. GRO Reference: 1860  D Quarter in WARRINGTON  Volume 08C  Page 71.

A Henrietta Griffiths was born in 1860 (JAN-MAR QTR) in Chorlton, Lancashire, England. Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH GRO Reference: 1860  M Quarter in CHORLTON  Volume 08C  Page 510  MY GREAT GREAT GRANDMOTHER WHO MARRIED THOMAS HENRY PHILLIP HAYNES

There was an Alfred Griffiths born in 1861 (OCT-DEC QTR) in Derby, Debyshire, England. Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH GRO Reference: 1861  D Quarter in DERBY 445  Volume 07B  Page 345

There was a Georgina Emily Griffiths born in 1864 (JAN-MAR QTR) in Medway, Kent, England. Mother's maiden name: WYCHURCH (WHITCHURCH?) GRO Reference: 1864  M Quarter in MEDWAY  Volume 02A  Page 383

There was a Tom Griffiths born in 1866 (OCT-DEC QTR) in Bristol, Gloucestershire, England. Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH GRO Reference: 1866  D Quarter in BRISTOL  Volume 06A  Page 3

There was a Sarah Griffiths born in 1870 (JUL-SEP QTR) in Birmingham, Warwickshire, England . Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH. GRO Reference: 1870  S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM  Volume 06D  Page 131  ***NEED TO FIND A DEATH AS SHE IS NOT ON 1871 CENSUS***

There was a Maud Beatrice Griffiths born in 1871 (JUL-SEP QTR) in Birmingham, Warwickshire, England . Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH. GRO Reference: 1871  S Quarter in BIRMINGHAM  Volume 06D  Page 136. There was a Maud Beatrice Griffiths died in 1872 (JAN-MAR QTR) in Birmingham, Warwickshire, England aged 0 years born approx 1871/1872. She would have been 9 months old or less. GRO Reference: 1872  M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM  Volume 06D  Page 8

And finally our mate ...

There was a Mont Griffiths born in 1873 (JAN-MAR QTR) in Birmingham, Warwickshire, England . Mother's maiden name: WHITCHURCH. GRO Reference: 1873  M Quarter in BIRMINGHAM  Volume 06D  Page 14