Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794071.18

Although, Elizabeth Lawson is referred to as the first spouse on this thread I have noticed that on the register office marriage certificate on the above link Giovanni is referred to as a 'Widower' at time of marriage to Elizabeth.

This would make Elizabeth his second wife and Anastasia the third wife.

Battista, do you think there might be a possibility that Giovanni may have been the one who married in 1903 to Marta Camilla Brenta (possible fourth wife?) - not long after his last sighting recorded at Turpin's Bank, North Shields in July 1902? (Orselina's workhouse entry).

It would be interesting to see what Father's name is - if this took place in a Church and could be looked up possibly by a Roots Chatter - If it is Antonio perhaps this may indicate that this Giovanni might be this missing one.

I know there is a recorded age difference e.g. at time of death, but I think this may be worth consideration.

[Love&Leaves]

Hi, I have been reading this post with much interest as I am also a Battista descendant.  My GG Grandfather was Vincenzo Battista, Giovanni's brother.  I have already been in touch with the originator of this thread 'Battista' via Ancestry and am in the process of sharing what info I have.  I have also been in search of Giovanni's fate but do not have any information to add I'm afraid.. other than I have a copy of his eldest child Pasqualino's marriage banns from 1910 where he is recorded as deceased.  I would like to thank River Tyne Lass in particular, as well as Jen and all the other contributors.. it is AMAZING the effort you have gone to and to hear all of this info and discussion - it is really helping to bring my ancestors lives more into perspective. 

River Tyne Lass - I think we have actually met!  I visited T&W Archives drop in centre with my mother earlier this year to research Vincenzo and you and your colleagues were very helpful then .

I know a lot about Vincenzo and he did very well for himself, becoming a well respected member of the community as well as having a strong trade in Confectionery, selling Ice Cream on the Quayside and having a shop in Gallowgate.  When he died over 300 people attended his funeral and his widow received a letter of condolence from the Italian Consultate thanking him for his efforts in helping the Italian immigrant community to settle and integrate.  In contrast it seems his brother did not fare so well.  I am intrigued as to why this was.. given the Italian strong sense of family and Vincenzo's obvious interest in community. 

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Sophie,

You are welcome!  I am glad this research has been of interest.  We probably haven't met as I don't actually work at the archives.  I am just a very avid genealogist!
I have access to local resources at local libraries and Tyne and Wear Archives so I try to help RootsChatters out when my shift work permits.  I also do voluntary local war research when time permits.. 

By the way Sophie, did you see the wonderful photos of John George and Lily/Orselinawhen you were at the archives?  I would be over the moon to see such pictures of my ancestors.  In fact, one of my ancestors is in the album - Jacob Conroy.  I bought a copy of the latters photo.  Sadly he was killed in the Great War in 1915 four years after the photo was taken.

It is a shame the end story for Giovanni has not yet been uncovered but who knows, one day the answer may emerge.  I have found this story a fascinating one.  My son and I  were born at the hospital which was the former workhouse and which is now housing.  This was also the hospital of some of my ancestors and our local hospital for many years  so I am very familiar with what that building was like. 

Going on with the research I found that a Jacob Miller was also on trial with John George at one point.  Although, I will never know for definite I think he may well have been one of my ancestors. 
It was fascinating too to look through the old workhouse records.  I often came across the same people entering and leaving.  It definitely seemed a port of call during tough episodes for local people. 
I will view this as an 'open case' and if I do come across any more leads concerning Giovanni I will of course share these.
If I can ever be of further help, Sophie please let me know.  I am always happy to help others get answers using the local resources available to me.
Thank you for adding this story about Vincenzo and your own thoughts.  This certainly adds to the colour on this thread and gives human interest.  I must say, this Battista story is one of the most intriguing family history stories I have come across. 

Thank you again for adding your most interesting post on this thread Sophie:)

[Love&Leaves]

You are welcome too RTL . I haven't actually seen the photos from the Criminal mugshots but I would love to..  can I ask, have the records been catalogued so you can search by name or is it a case of looking at each photo manually?  I will be in Newcastle on 14th August for a few days so am thinking of coming to have a look!

[River Tyne Lass]

They have a police identification file and this will provide the names and page number.  The staff will help you.  You can then fill out a slip of paper to obtain the album which is fascinating.  The album is massive and comes in a huge box and this is a real treat to look through.  The photos are of very good quality and I am sure it will be a real treat to see your ancestors in this way.  (I know I was highly delighted to see my ancestor Jacob.)

There are two photos of John George and one of Orselina/Lily.  There will be one of her husband to be too who had the name of Robert Guthrie.  They were jointly involved in a crime and sentenced to hard labour.

If you take a camera I would recommend paying for a day photography pass (I can't remember exact charge but I think it is no more then £10 to - £16) - then you will be able to take photos of these photos and any other records which interest you.  However, you also have to sign a short form and agree not to pass on the photos to other parties as I remember it.

You will also be able to order the workhouse records!

The dates on the photos in the album are the dates people were convicted.  The only bad thing about visiting the archives is that time goes too quickly when you are there - a whole day can seem like only half an hour.

I would also recommend a visit to the North Shields library, local studies department and you will be able to see the Shields Daily News on microfilm which recorded many of the trials, including those of these ancestors of yours (as well as some of my ancestors who appeared in court cases).  This library also has some of your ancestors burial records - however you will also be able to see these at the archives.  In the city centre of Newcastle is the library where you can view your ancestors death notices (and some burials).  Check the times - but on some evenings the library is open until 7 pm.

I know it will be hard to fit everything in in but this is just to let you know what is avaiable.  It will be very easy for you to access the criminal mugshots album - the staff are very helpful.

I hope you have a brilliant time!

[battista]

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794071.18

Although, Elizabeth Lawson is referred to as the first spouse on this thread I have noticed that on the register office marriage certificate on the above link Giovanni is referred to as a 'Widower' at time of marriage to Elizabeth.

This would make Elizabeth his second wife and Anastasia the third wife.

Battista, do you think there might be a possibility that Giovanni may have been the one who married in 1903 to Marta Camilla Brenta (possible fourth wife?) - not long after his last sighting recorded at Turpin's Bank, North Shields in July 1902? (Orselina's workhouse entry).

It would be interesting to see what Father's name is - if this took place in a Church and could be looked up possibly by a Roots Chatter - If it is Antonio perhaps this may indicate that this Giovanni might be this missing one.

I know there is a recorded age difference e.g. at time of death, but I think this may be worth consideration.

I don't think so, but it's always possible. The Giovanni married to Marta was born in 1870 according to his gravestone and 1911 census. That would make a 25 year age difference between the two, surely he couldn't pass that off.

Gravestone: https://i.imgur.com/A81j6nB.jpg

An ancestry tree claims the father's name was Raffaele (they seem to know a lot about this family, uploaded many pictures and sources). This Giovanni also claims to come from Naples, not Cassino. He might be the guy travelling from the US and back a few times mentioned earlier in this thread.

[battista]

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794071.18
Although, Elizabeth Lawson is referred to as the first spouse on this thread I have noticed that on the register office marriage certificate on the above link Giovanni is referred to as a 'Widower' at time of marriage to Elizabeth.

This would make Elizabeth his second wife and Anastasia the third wife.

Their marriage certificate is here: https://i.imgur.com/R7ultSe.jpg

Yes, he's listed as a widower. I believe he was married in Italy, potentially had children there as well. That would explain why he was a bit old for his first marriage. I'm trying to locate those records, haven't got around to it just yet.

[Love&Leaves]

They have a police identification file and this will provide the names and page number.  The staff will help you.  You can then fill out a slip of paper to obtain the album which is fascinating.  The album is massive and comes in a huge box and this is a real treat to look through.  The photos are of very good quality and I am sure it will be a real treat to see your ancestors in this way.  (I know I was highly delighted to see my ancestor Jacob.)

There are two photos of John George and one of Orselina/Lily.  There will be one of her husband to be too who had the name of Robert Guthrie.  They were jointly involved in a crime and sentenced to hard labour.

If you take a camera I would recommend paying for a day photography pass (I can't remember exact charge but I think it is no more then £10 to - £16) - then you will be able to take photos of these photos and any other records which interest you.  However, you also have to sign a short form and agree not to pass on the photos to other parties as I remember it.

You will also be able to order the workhouse records!

The dates on the photos in the album are the dates people were convicted.  The only bad thing about visiting the archives is that time goes too quickly when you are there - a whole day can seem like only half an hour.

I would also recommend a visit to the North Shields library, local studies department and you will be able to see the Shields Daily News on microfilm which recorded many of the trials, including those of these ancestors of yours (as well as some of my ancestors who appeared in court cases).  This library also has some of your ancestors burial records - however you will also be able to see these at the archives.  In the city centre of Newcastle is the library where you can view your ancestors death notices (and some burials).  Check the times - but on some evenings the library is open until 7 pm.

I know it will be hard to fit everything in in but this is just to let you know what is avaiable.  It will be very easy for you to access the criminal mugshots album - the staff are very helpful.

I hope you have a brilliant time!

Thanks again RTL - I am indeed looking forward to my visit!  I did have one other query you may actually know the answer to.. where would I find newspaper back copies for 1900?  I have searched the britishnewspaperarchives.co.uk and what is available on Ancestry and Findmypast, but they don't seem to have been digitised that far back for the Newcastle titles.  Would these be held in the T&W Archives or the main city Library?  I'd love to see if there was an article written about my GG Grandfathers funeral.

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Sophie,

Yes, you are correct - not all copies are digitised yet.  The Newcastle City library holds the newspapers in the Local Studies department on the 6th floor - there is a lift and a staircase - you can choose how to get up there.

The back copies of the Newcastle Evening Chronicle and the Journal are stored on microfilm for anyone to view and are kept in a filing cabinet next to the microfilm readers.

There are other Newcastle newspapers too and these are stored in huge tomes and kept out the back.  You have to sign a slip of paper with your name and address and staff will bring these out for you.  The staff will be able to let you know the whole list they hold.  I would bring some ID just in case they require this.  I have my own library card already so I have never been asked for further ID.

However, I think that if there is a write up about your ancestor Vincenzo you are most likely to find it in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle or the Newcastle Journal both on the microfilms.

The burial entries are also kept on microfilm.  I think he would most likely have been buried at Elswick.  As he was such a notable figure I wonder if he may have a grave stone?  If you had time when you come to Newcastle you might want to look around the relevant section.