Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi battista,

Thanks for giving us all this update.  I didn't know that - that you can pay the GRO to search for the death certificate of a missing ancestor and if they can't find one to provide a certified letter of no record.  I do hope they can find him or that one day you may locate him back in Italy.

Whatever, it is true that you have done and are doing everything in your power to find him.

There is another really good book about the Wellesley which I have just come across at the library:

'The Tyne Training Ship Wellesley Remembered' by Brian Godfrey.  This looks really informative about the history of this ship and the routines of life on board (everything including things such as the timetabled routine of the day and the menu of plain food provided) and there are plentiful photographs too.  It appears That the boys had to be up at 6 am and then were given a very structured day of activities and schooling until bedtime at 9 pm.

That book that I mentioned yesterday is quite heartbreaking in parts when you see the photos of the young children who perhaps stole out of desperation and were sent off to be birched ..      

There is one photo of a boy who purportedly had been told by his Mother to steal something.  Apparently he had burst into tears on being charged.  There are photos of both in the book.  He looks so young and his Mother looks much older than her years, perhaps due to a very hard life - more like his elderly Grandmother.  He looks so young and she looks so frightened as she looks towards the camera.  Poor woman .. she looks as though she is not physically strong and yet was sent off to do hard labour.  By the look of her I would be very surprised if she survived this.  The poor boy was given a good birching. I suppose those were the tough times then.  When individuals committed acts of desperation I think because there was so much of this situation it was perhaps easier to punish people for their extreme poverty rather than to help them.  Sorry, I have gone a bit off topic here of Giovanni .. it is just I have found myself so moved by the plight of the poor children in the book who were subject to such cruel punishment .. truly heartbreaking  .. I wish I could reach back in time and rescue them  all.

I do wish you the best with this search, as I am sure many others do.

[River Tyne Lass]

Oh my goodness battista!!   On page 29 of the Wellesley book I have mentioned today by Brian Godfrey I have just discovered that there is a letter which specifically mentions your ancestor (John George) Private Battista.  It is from another soldier and he reports back with regret regarding the death of this ancestor of yours.  His date of death is given so that is how I know for certain that he is your ancestor.

There is also a photo of a Wellesley poster with photos of ex Wellesley boys with the caption 'Wellesley Honours War'.  The names are tiny under the photos and I can't make these out but there could be a possibility that John George may be one of these photos.  Perhaps you might be able to look further into this.

[battista]

You can sometimes get them to provide a "letter of no trace" for a record, however, it depends on the person who ends up seeing your request. Unfortunately, my request was rejected, however they simply said to order the certificate despite the fact that it doesn't request and they'll send an email I presume stating they don't have it. Not really what I was looking for, but oh well.

Newcastle Registrars months ago said I should contact TW Archives, I did a few days ago. Got a response today, among the information provided, this was in the email:

"I have recently undertaken research for details of John G Batista through a Police identification book, North Shields, 1902 – 1916 held here ref no DX1388/1.  I located two mugshots, one dated1910, the other 1913.  If this is related to your research and you require a copy of these images we could forward medium resolution jpegs to you at a cost of £14.00."

Must have been Sophie

I will certainly check out those books, very exciting to find a letter mentioning JG Battista!

I wonder if I should pay for an hour or so of research at TW Archives to try and find a record of his death. With all the effort that's already been done, I'm not sure if it'd be worth it.

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks for the update battista.  I agree with your comment regarding .. 'it depends on the person who ends up seeing your post.'

Yes, I imagine this may have been Sophie who requested the photos of John G Battista.  I think she was going to do this after I posted the information on here.

I am not sure if it would be worth it to pay for research at the archives either.  I don't know if you would have to give them specifics of where you would like to them to search.  A full-out search would likely take more than just two hours and even if they searched every cemetery in the area over a dozen years - the mind boggles at how much this might cost! - there still may be nothing found.  There just does not seem to be a death registration where we can think - yes! that looks like it this is him.  It is still very much a mystery what happened to him.   I suppose you could enquire by email at the archives - just in case a professional with a 'fresh pair of eyes' may be able to suggest something new regarding research which we may not have thought of.  Archivists there with many years experience may be able to advise if professional research would be worth undertaking or not.

Could it be a case of desertion?  Did he go back to Italy?  Could he have gone off to look for work somewhere and died away from home?  He might have been one of the unidentified dead some place.  Also, I suppose there may be a tiny possibility he may have changed his surname slightly to a more Anglicized one. So many possibilities.  All we know from a workhouse for Orselina is that he seems to have been alive and at Turpin's Bank (North Shields) on 17 July 1902.

battista, have you considered chasing up the Italian death records again, just in case he may have returned.  Perhaps, he may have gone home for work with the intention of getting his family back over to Italy but then died before this could happen.  It was fascinating to look through the workhouse records.  I get the impression from these that sometimes people may have gone in to lessen the number of mouths to feed.  People sometimes seemed to just go in for short spells and then be taken out again by a family member such as a Mother, or husband perhaps when financial circumstances improved.

I think one thing to consider is that Giovanni may have been dead when most of his children were admitted to the workhouse on 17 November 1902.

When I next get a chance to go to the Newcastle Library I could look up Vincenzo's (brother) burial record if you like to see if there may be any suggestion that he may have had a grave stone.  If he had one perhaps Giovanni might be named on this (In Memory Of) and a death recorded.

Yes, this is quite something that the letter recorded in the book I mentioned concerns the war death of John George.   I wonder where this author found this letter - it must still exist somewhere in the original.

[battista]

Yes, I do need to go back and look at the Italian death records. Just a bit hard to do manually, I'm very slow to read the names in handwriting. One free weekend I'll certainly give it a crack.

[Love&Leaves]

Hi Battista, RTL et al.. so sorry I haven't kept up with this thread, I wasn't aware of your posts until today when I logged in.  Some more amazing leads RTL - it is so great to get into the history as it really helps you to understand these people and the world they lived in and I agree, it can be incredibly moving.

I didn't make it to Newcastle but did indeed request and receive the photos of Lily and John George from the Archives - they are amazing.  They ironed out a case of mistaken identity for John George and I think the family resemblance between the two is clear.

I am very interested in the books you mention - fantastic to come across the letter!  I will be looking into getting some copies

I recently watched a Who do you Think You Are episode featuring Twiggy - her ancestors were resident in London workhouses and the information they gleaned from the records of the children regarding their parents was very detailed... Battista, as RTL suggested earlier in the thread, I think this would definitely be worth paying the Tyne & Wear archives to look into for you.  Either the Tynemouth Workhouse or the Industrial ship records, particularly for the youngest of Giovanni's children William and James.

My take on the mystery so far is that Giovanni has for some reason deserted second wife Anastasia and his children.  Anastasia having no children by Giovanni (there only son Leo dying as a baby) and no bond with her step children, has actually gone back to her first husband.  Then sadly, the children have ended up in various institutions.  I think it is a common story for the time.. but it still puzzles me as to why Giovanni doesn't seem to have kept up with his brothers Vincenzo and Antonio and that they don't appear to have supported him at all.  I have a number of photographs of some of the three brothers children together (male cousins including my Gt Gf Antonio, John George & Vincent) so the families must have remained in touch and even close.

I think the workhouse records would show why Giovanni was not capable of supporting his children - he would have been liable to provide for his children, if able and it it would have been an offence if he did not.  If he was not able then there ought to be a record as to why he was not able, e.g. having died, having been imprisoned etc.

Regarding my GGt Gf Vincenzo's funeral, the library could not find any article which is a real shame - perhaps it was not the done thing to write about immigrants in such a positive light at that time?  Also RTL thank you for your kind offer of checking his burial record re headstone... I did this on my last visit to the archives and there is nothing but a grave reference.  He was buried in un-consecrated ground, section T, Grave 85.  He did not own the plot as he is buried with another man, William Tait, who I do not believe he is related to.  Incidentally the neighbouring grave no.86 his youngest son Nicola buried in it who died 2 months after he did.  So sad (   We weren't able to actually visit Elswick to find him... maybe you are familiar with the cemetery and whether that area has any old stones? 

I feel positive we will get to the bottom of this mystery one day!

[JenB]

I think this would definitely be worth paying the Tyne & Wear archives to look into for you.  Either the Tynemouth Workhouse or the Industrial ship records, particularly for the youngest of Giovanni's children William and James.

Hi Sophie  the records for the training ship 'Wellesley' are held at Northumberland Archives and were checked back in May by another Rootschatter see reply #113 which I have also quoted below.

There was no mention at all of the Battista boys in the records.

William Armstrong Battista, 13 - Sculcoates, Yorkshire-East Riding, inmate.
James Battista, 11 - Tynemouth, Northumberland, inmate.

I see that Giovanni's son, James Battista, was in fact on the training ship 'Wellesley' in 1911.

There is interesting information about this ship here http://blog.twmuseums.org.uk/the-training-ship-wellesley-at-north-shields-1868-1914/

The admission books for 'Wellesley are at Northumberland Archives reference number is NRO 07146/3/2.

A Rootschatter who visits Northumberland Archives on a regular basis was kind enough yesterday to check on the Wellesley Admission Books, in the hope that there might be some family details relating to the two Battista boys who were admitted there.

Sadly she reports that she could find nothing at all relating to either boy    Staff at the Archives confirm that they have had several people search in the books for boys who they know for certain were there but have found nothing in the records at all.

So, I'm afraid, another dead-end.

Also (and I'm happy to be corrected  ) I think RTL has done a thorough search of all the available workhouse records and has recorded all her various findings on this thread.

[River Tyne Lass]

What a wonderful response Sophie!  I am glad you have been able to obtain the photos.  I agree they are wonderful.  I also got one of my ancestor Jacob Conroy from the same album a good while back.  Makes you almost glad they got themselves into a bit of bother, almost. (Did I really say that )

I know the two photos look a bit different for John George, he has a fringe I remember in one and was a bit heavier built in one photo.  But when you look closely at the face, especially the nose I believe it is the same man.  And how many John George Battista's would you be likely to come across.  The photo of Orselina (Lily) in her lovely hat is fantastic too.

I am not sure if Tyne and Wear Archives may be able to help any further in our quest to find Giovanni.  However, I suppose if an enquiry was made giving them info to date they may be able to let you know if they might realistically be able to explore any other avenues.  Just an enquiry would be free and then it could be said that another box has been ticked if they come back and say it would be doubtful that they would be able to find him following on from all the research done already.  I suppose they are the experts and may have an idea we have not already thought of.  I once came across a baptism of an ancestor which said that my ancestors were from Lock Gilley in Ireland.  I happened to be at Northumberland Archives at the time and spoke to the staff about this.  They looked into this for me and no such place.   However, they then went on to explain that there was a Loughgilley which is pronounced as Lock Gilley.  This is just an example of how archives staff may be able to come up with things we have not thought of.

I am still willing to help at the archives so if the staff or anyone else can think of something that has not be considered by any of us and is a good lead let me know and I will look it up for free.

Yes, regarding the book I mentioned about the Wellesley I was amazed to find after I had made a post on here, to turn the pages and come across a letter from a fellow soldier sadly reporting back on the death of John George.  Quite a case of serendipity that I should chance upon such a letter.  Almost like it was meant to be.  If this was my ancestor I think I would be sending a letter to the author care of the publisher to ask where he had come across this letter.  It must still be in existence somewhere.

Actually I was going to post about Vincenzo's burial.  I did look for this recently.  You will have seen the entry and noticed that the writing is a bit fancy.  I thought the section looked like a 'J' but I could be wrong and it could be a T.  The writing looks a bit fancified it is hard to say but I did think it looked like a J.  You will have also seen that the entry 33993 also records his address as 'Stowell Street'.  This is now part of Chinatown in Newcastle with various good shops and restaurants.  I think from the burial record and the cost that was paid for the grave which seemed about average he is unfortunately unlikely to have a grave stone.

I think it seems as if Anastasia may have gone to her family rather than her previous husband as he had died in Morpeth in the Sanatorium if I recall correctly.  I have no doubt that times were hard for large families living in North Shields (or indeed anywhere).  I got the impression when going through the workhouse records that individuals probably went in from time to time to lessen the load of number of mouths to feed. 

I think the date in 1902 when most of Giovanni's children went into the workhouse is probably the time frame to focus on most when carrying on this search.  I think this is quite likely to have been the time when he died or left, perhaps to look for work.  Whatever, the case must have been quite desperate as people lived with privation in the workhouse and this could weaken some of the most vulnerable and lead to their death.  I read a book about workhouses a while back.  Apparently, Whitehall had rules which they laid down regarding how much people were given to eat.  People were meant to have a set portion according to their sex, age etc.  Food was often poor and limited in choice.  However, in this book, the title escapes me at the moment, it is written that officials were once sent to the Tynemouth Workhouse when 'horror of horrors' it had become known that they were not as stringent as they were apparently meant to be.

I can understand if Giovanni felt he could not turn to his brothers if he needed help.  Perhaps this may have been because he didn't want to be a burden on them.  I think it was really a case of survival then and perhaps if he had sought help from family they may have all ended up in the workhouse, including your ancestors too, Sophie. 

I hope this mystery does get solved one day - what a party we will all have when hopefully that day arrives!

[River Tyne Lass]

Hi Jen,

I have just seen your post after the time when I managed to get my long one posted.

Yes, I made a thorough search of the workhouse records that are available to the general public.  There are restrictions to access to those with less than the 100 year mark.  I have been told that this is because you may come across a record for someone who is still living.

I once researched for my Grandmother's death record and found this at this place - Preston Hospital/Tynemouth Workhouse.  This confirmed her cause of death and other details.  However, when I tried to access the record of her actually going into the workhouse hospital I was politely turned down.  They told me I could pay for them to look it up but I would not be allowed access myself in case I also saw a record of a still living person.  Understandable I suppose.