Help with Catholic Baptisms in Carlisle Cumberland 1860's

[Maiden Stone]

Website The Churches of Britain has a page Carlisle, Cumbria. (Link from a RootsChat enquiry about St. Mary's R.C. Church, Carlisle.)
www.churches-uk-ireland.org/towns/c/carlisle.html
It says building of St. Mary & St. Joseph began in 1822. There's a photo of it as a gym. It also says the first post-Reformation chapel in Carlisle was built in 1799 "behind the Bush Hotel".

Wiki: R.C. chapel 1798 at West Walls. A church was built in Chapel Street 1824-5. By 1870 this was too small so it was proposed to build a larger church (Our Lady & St. Joseph).

[Gan Yam]

If the family lived in Abbey Street, they are likely to have used the Catholic Chapel in Chapel Street, which was the predecessor to Our Lady and St Joseph's church, and would have been only a 5 min walk for them.

St. Mary & St. Joseph, Chapel Street, Carlisle, founded pre 1881 and Roman Catholic Chapel, City Wall, known to have existed 1821 are on GENUKI church database. Accompanying maps show location of each church. According to GENUKI exact site of the 1821 chapel is not certain but was also quite near Abbey Street. Was the old chapel succeeeded by St. Mary & St. Joseph which was in turn replaced by Our Lady & St. Joseph or did any of them co-exist for a time ? (GENUKI says closure date unknown.) Overlap of years in registers might be explained by more than 1 church operating in the parish.

I think that they are all the same church. From what I remember from last looking at the records for this church they are stored as one church, originally in West Walls, moved to Chapel Street (was a gym but now a fancy dress hirer) and then moved to Warwick Square where it still is today.
For the birth of Margaret in 1850/60's the church would be in Chapel Street

[Gan Yam]

Hi

I have checked the church records for the Martin children for Our Lady and St Joseph Catholic Church which includes its predecessor churches. Below is a list of the children cross referenced their GRO registration.

Mary: Longtown Dec 1/4 1856 mmn Raggen.
born 25/8/1856 baptised 26/10/1856 mmn Hanley. God parents Simon Martin & Anna Mooney

Margaret: June 1/4 1858 mmn Hanley
born 13/5/1858 baptised 6/6/1858 mmn Regan. God parents Nicholas Martin & Julia Martin
Died November 1858

John: Dec 1/4 1859 mmn Hanley
born 07/11/1859 baptised 05/02/1860 mmn Regan. Godparents Thomas Martin & Julia Martin

Edward: March 1/4 1862 mmn Ragan
born 28/12/1861 baptised 02/01/862 mmn Regan. Godparents Julia Martin only.

Elizabeth: Sept 1/4 1866 mmn Hanley.
Born 02/07/1866 baptised 27/07/1866 mmn Hanlon. Godparents Jacob McCullock & Maria McCollings. (I'm sure that Hanlon is just a mistake and should be Hanley!)

Sarah Jane: June 1/4 1870 mmn Hanley.
Born 30/01/1870 baptised 19/07/1870 mmn Regan. Godparents Agnes Conway only

Hugh: Mar 1/4 1872 mmn Regan. 
Born 31/01/1872 baptised 31/03/1872 mmn Regan. Godparents Patrick & Maria Metcalf.

As you will see the baptism for Ann born Sept 1/4 1864 is missing.  I checked the baptisms prior to this date and well after this date but could find no baptism for a child to Patrick and Margaret of any name.  The records are also indexed up to 1866 and I checked the indexes for Martin births and then checked the corresponding record to see if I had missed the baptism but with no joy.  As all the other children are baptised within a short time from birth, I wonder if Margaret went home or to one of her relatives and the child was baptised somewhere other than Carlisle.  I also checked the records for her baptism being listed under both Hanley and Regan/Ragan, but there were no baptisms under those names. Its just typical that the one you are most interested in, isnt there!!

As you can see there is no firm name for Margaret, as with the GRO births there is a mixture of Hanley and Regan, but I'm sure that she is the same person.  There are not a lot of Martin baptisms, and judging by some of the godparents, they all belong to the same wider family, possibly brothers or cousins of Patrick?

I see that various trees on Ancestry have Julia Martin (wife of Simon) maiden name as McLauglin, but the baptism records show her consistently as Burke.

I dont know whether this has anything to do with your Margaret Martin, but there was a 'baptism' on 31/03/1861 for a Margaret (Margarita) Martin (DOB: 14/12/1841) recorded as sub conditiona, which i think means either a conversion to catholic or a baptism when it wasn't or arent sure it was done as a child.

Sorry the information that you wanted wasn't there but I hope the above may go on to help you solve the mystery.  If there is anything else I can help with let me know.

regards

Julie

[Maiden Stone]

I came across this while browsing through a book (1901) about name variations written by Irish Registrar-General. The Registrar of Tuam District reported that mother's maiden name was sometimes used instead of father's name. Short title of book is "Variations of Surnames and Christian Names in Ireland" by Robert Matheson. It's on the Internet Archive https://archive.org
 Perhaps the mother of these children was known by both her mother's and father's surnames, hence confusion at registrations and baptisms of her children.

[Linda Dawson]

Thank you so much Julie for looking up the baptisms for me. I will have a look at the wider family and see if that helps. Trust me to be interested in the one that isn't there, seems to be a common theme in my family.

Thanks again to all who have replied, I have learnt so much from all the answers.

Regards Linda

[Maiden Stone]

A free online source of parish register transcriptions is FreeReg https://www.freereg.org.uk
Transcriptions are done by volunteers. Coverage varies.