Author Topic: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset  (Read 8363 times)

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #45 on: Saturday 11 August 18 17:11 BST (UK) »
Snippet #21:

...and singulier parsonne and parsonnes that now be seasid or that herafter shalbe seased of all and

singulier the said lordeshppes manours londis ten(emen)tis and other the premisses or of any other londis

ten(emen)tis and hereditamentes wherof I have pour and auctorite to declare my will shall shall from hens

forthe stand and be seased therof to thusis and intentes specyfied and declarid within this my laste

will and testament & to the p(er)fourmance of the same and I renownce and forsake all other

will and wylles by me before the date of this presentis made and affirmie this to be my last

will and testament And executours of the same I ordeyne constitute and make my Entierly welbe

lovid Lady Margaret my wiff and my speciall frendis Cutbert Tunstall now electe busshopp

of Durh(a)m Sir John ffytziames now cheif Justice of the kynges benche William Shelley one...

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #46 on: Saturday 11 August 18 17:22 BST (UK) »
Regarding your questions in Reply #44:

First, I would say that Mary was possibly the oldest daughter but we can't definitively say so based on the evidence we have so far.

Secondly, I agree with your conclusions regarding Anne and the Willoughby marriage.

Thirdly, Marye Tomason could be anything based on what we have so far in the will.  I feel that the small amount given makes it unlikely that she's an illegitimate daughter.

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #47 on: Saturday 11 August 18 18:37 BST (UK) »
I agree with HD's views on your questions in Reply #44.

=====

Snippet 22

... of the kynges Iustices of his com(m)on place Edwarde Wotton knyght William Ashebye Esquire

and Robert Brocke clerke and to every of my said executours I gyve and bequethe xxli and

their reasonable Costes and expens(es) that they shall susteyne and be at in and abowte the

execucion and p(er)fourmance of this my will  And I will that my lady my mothers will

concerninge the findinge of ij preestis in the Chapel of Asteley and the contynuance of the

same ij preestis be observid and kept accordinge to my said Ladye my mothers will  In

wyttnesse wherof I the saide Thomas Marques Dorset have to this my wyll put my seale*


     * -- insertion in the right-hand margin?

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #48 on: Saturday 11 August 18 20:57 BST (UK) »
Snippet #20:

... And the Chapell at Asteley to be buyldid And my tombe to

be made there by thadvise of my said executours  And the said Chapel buyldinge and

Tombe to be made in as Convenient tyme as it may resonablye I will that phillip the

Eremyte have xijd by weke as longe as he contynuethe at Asteley to pray for my faither

and my mother soules my wifes soule and all christen soules allso I will I will that all...


"phillip the Eremyte" = Phillip the Hermit? Or was Eremyte a religious order?

Edit. eremite was a Christian hermit or recluse.  (Collins English Dictionary)
Cowban


Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #49 on: Sunday 12 August 18 00:52 BST (UK) »
Regarding your questions in Reply #44:

First, I would say that Mary was possibly the oldest daughter but we can't definitively say so based on the evidence we have so far.

I agree. She could simply be the favourite daughter, or maybe she loved those properties dearly even though she was but a small child making her father want her to have them, or some other reason that has been lost between the testator writing his will in 1530 and us nearly 500 years later.

Chronology-wise it makes absolutely no sense for Mary to be eldest and Anne to be the second daughter. If Anne was born after 1518, as we have now established that she was, she must have been born after Elizabeth.

I have seen Katherine referred to as the second daughter in a usually reliable source and Anne as the third daughter in another seemingly reliable source. Katherine could have been born right after Elizabeth, that would have worked chronology-wise, but then the numbering of the girls would not make sense unless Mary was actually the youngest ...

Like I wrote previously, I have been inclined to dismiss the numbering of the girls as 'Elizabeth, Katherine, Anne', as I had been operating on the assumption that Anne was the eldest as she married first, in 1528. Now that it seems as though she was indeed the youngest, (or at least youngest out of the of the three of them, Elizabeth, Katherine and Anne), I have been forced to rethink that. Those two others could be refering to some reliable source that I have yet to find. But the numbering does not work if Mary were the eldest. Unless she died so young that she 'didn't count'. I have experienced this once before. Another Elizabeth, in the 1700's, I think. She clearly had two elder sisters, I found their christening records, but she was always referred to as the eldest daughter in documents, including her father's will. She also had younger sisters, but the two girls born first died very young.


Secondly, I agree with your conclusions regarding Anne and the Willoughby marriage.

Yes. It has never made sense to me, that if Anne and Henry Willoughby were already cohabiting in 1528, why their children only started being born over 12 years later in the 1540's. These things do happen of course, it just never seemed that likely. Especially for a family that had the habit of marrying their daughters off ridiculously young, if you ask me.

Alas, in the event, they did not.

(Katherine's daughter Jane was married off between 13 and 15, her daughter Mary at 15, Anne's daughter Margaret Willoughby was married of in 1559 at the age of 15 and Elizabeth's daughter Margaret Audley must have been between 12 and 13 when she was married to Lord Henry Dudley, younger brother of Lord Robert Dudley and Lord Guildford Dudley, as they were already married when the failed attempt to put Jane Grey on the throne occurred. She was not only Lady Jane Grey's first cousin through her mother and Jane's father, but also her sister-in law.

She would later marry as his second wife the widower of her cousin Mary.

They would both marry this chap:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Howard,_4th_Duke_of_Norfolk#/media/File:ThomasHoward4HerzogvonNorfolk.jpg

Of the above, Jane would have no surviving children, and Mary and Margaret Audley, the Duchesses of Norfolk, would both die in childbirth.

At some point, you would have thought that it would have pegged for these people that these super-early marriages with a baby every year weren't necessarily the wisest. *sigh* The matter was of course exacerbated by the higher classes' practice of hiring wet nurses. One important reason for wet nurses was for the mother to conceive again quickly. Breastfeeding works as a natural birth control, which was known at time. The working classes took full advantage of this, naturally, due to the expense and work of another child so soon after the last one, without realising it giving the mother's body time to heal after birth (it is said to take a year for the body to be fully restituted), resulting in a stronger mother and baby. The higher classes took the opposite course of action, inadvertantly resulting in the opposite ...

Of course, many siblings, also today, are born within a year of each other, and people have babies young, these things happen, and fortunately everything usually turns out fine :) But year after year after year ... And so many of them. And so planned. And with the, to put it mildly, severely lacking prenatal care and childbirth care of the time ... )

Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #50 on: Sunday 12 August 18 00:58 BST (UK) »
Thirdly, Marye Tomason could be anything based on what we have so far in the will.  I feel that the small amount given makes it unlikely that she's an illegitimate daughter.

I agree. I did play with the thought that she might have been the 'daughter in base' by his father mentioned in that other will, since he seemed to have quarreled with his mother and that entire side of the family (he has mentioned none of his many, many, many other siblings so far, which is very unusual), but she would have to have been at least 27 years old (based on the year of the death of his father) and then it seems strange to put marriage as a stipulation rather than just handing them to her outright.

I agree with HD's views on your questions in Reply #44.

=====

Snippet 22

... of the kynges Iustices of his com(m)on place Edwarde Wotton knyght William Ashebye Esquire

and Robert Brocke clerke and to every of my said executours I gyve and bequethe xxli and

their reasonable Costes and expens(es) that they shall susteyne and be at in and abowte the

execucion and p(er)fourmance of this my will  And I will that my lady my mothers will

concerninge the findinge of ij preestis in the Chapel of Asteley and the contynuance of the

same ij preestis be observid and kept accordinge to my said Ladye my mothers will  In

wyttnesse wherof I the saide Thomas Marques Dorset have to this my wyll put my seale*


     * -- insertion in the right-hand margin?


That is so weird. I cannot see any insertions. Perhaps in the original document? One that didn't get copied to this clerical copy of that one?

I am so glad that we are all in agreement about Mary, Anne and Henry Willoughby :)

Sir Edward Wotton was his brother-in-law, Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset's brother. Henry VIII would later nominate him as one of his executors and a privy councillor to his son Edward, the later Edward VI .

William Ashebye Esquire - Probably this chap:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/ashby-william-1470-1543

Quote
Robert Brocke clerke

The same Roberte Broke scolemaster that he left xxli yearly to earlier?

And executours of the same I ordeyne constitute and make my Entierly welbe

lovid Lady Margaret my wiff and my speciall frendis Cutbert Tunstall now electe busshopp

of Durh(a)m Sir John ffytziames now cheif Justice of the kynges benche William Shelley one...[/b]

Cutbert Tunstall now electe busshopp of Durh(a)m
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuthbert_Tunstall - He seems to have been a very good man indeed. How sad that it ended like that. I would like to think that he would have been given his liberty again if he had lived longer.

Sir John ffytziames now cheif Justice of the kynges benche
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_FitzJames

William Shelley one of the kynges Iustices of his com(m)on place - Probably this guy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_William_Shelley - He seems also to be a distant relation of Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, through the Belknap connection.

Snippet #20:

... And the Chapell at Asteley to be buyldid And my tombe to

be made there by thadvise of my said executours  And the said Chapel buyldinge and

Tombe to be made in as Convenient tyme as it may resonablye I will that phillip the

Eremyte have xijd by weke as longe as he contynuethe at Asteley to pray for my faither

and my mother soules my wifes soule and all christen soules allso I will I will that all...


"phillip the Eremyte" = Phillip the Hermit? Or was Eremyte a religious order?

Edit. eremite was a Christian hermit or recluse.  (Collins English Dictionary)

LOL! Yes, I noticed that too. When in doubt, always get an hermit to pray for you, I always say  *g*

Thank you all so very much!!! This is all so very wonderful! :) :D :)

Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #51 on: Sunday 12 August 18 03:14 BST (UK) »
I am actually wondering if Robert Brocke or Broke could be this bloke:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Broke

Broke was admitted to study for a BA at Oxford university in 1521. As a very minor member of the landed gentry, Broke needed to seek sources of income outside his own locality if he were to prosper, and he did so through London and the law. He studied at Strand Inn, and from there was admitted to Middle Temple at some point between 1525 and 1528. He studied pleading with John Jenour, a famous Prothonotary who influenced a whole generation of judges and jurists.

From the Wikipedia article: 'Broke's judicial career began in 1536 when he was appointed Common Serjeant of London on the recommendation of Henry VIII and the queen, Jane Seymour; how he gained such royal favour is unknown.'

Well, if he were, that would certainly have given an answer to that.

Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #52 on: Sunday 12 August 18 04:18 BST (UK) »
Snippet 5

sonne Henry to have xxli yerely out of suche landes and ten(emen)tis whereof myne executours
shall take the proffitts by this my will unto suche tyme as he be promotid to spirituall dignite
to the yerely valewe of xxx pounds.And likewise that doctor Johannes sysytsion have x li
yerely out of the said landes and tene(men)tis unto suche tyme as he be promotid to one spirituall
dignite to the yerely value of xxli AND allso I will that the said Robert Broke and the said doctor
Johannes shulde be furst promotid by my executours Allso I will that Edwarde Mountague
have yerely iiijli during his liff out of the Manour of Growbye and other landes and ten(emen)tis
in Growbye in the countie of Leic, And that william horewood have yerely out of the said Manor
landis and ten(emen)tis in Growbye  lxvj s viij d for terme of his lyff every of them gevyinge their
counsell to my lady my wiff and to my heires And I will that Elizabeth Stafferton
wif to Cristofer Stafferton have yerely out of the said Manours landes and ten(emen)ts in Growby
aforeaid lxvjs viijd for terme of hir lyff, Allso I will that every of my sonnes Thomas


Someone  might like to check the surname of the good doctor John on line 3  :)

Edwarde Mountague - Could be this man:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Montagu_(judge)

Amongst other things, he was a member of the Privy Council of King Henry VIII of England, who appointed him one of sixteen executors of his last will, and governor to his son Edward.

Ironically, during the crisis of 1553 when Edward VI wished to alter the succession in favour of Lady Jane Grey, the granddaughter of our testator, Thomas Grey, 2nd Marchioness of Dorset, Montagu protested at the illegality of the proceedings. However, when the Duke of Northumberland called him a traitor and threatened him with physical violence, he withdrew his protest. Mary I imprisoned Montagu in the Tower of London, once she took the throne, but he bought his way out.

william horewood (oh dear) - In all likehood this chap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Whorwood

William Whorwood (Horwood) (*snickers* *is twelve*) - History of Parliament Online biography here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1509-1558/member/whorwood-%28horwood%29-william-1505-45

In another one of those little strange vagarities of life, William's daughter Anne ended up married to Ambrose Dudley, elder brother of Robert Dudley, Guildford Dudley and Henry Dudley, therefore making her the sister-in-law of both Lady Jane Grey and Margaret Audley, the granddaughters of the testator.

Certainly an impressive list of people!

Still no luck with the good doctor or the Staffertons, goldie :)

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #53 on: Sunday 12 August 18 04:47 BST (UK) »
Snippet #23:

...the daye and yere abovesaid And whereas I before in this my present testament have

willid and gyvyn to Edwarde my sonne after he comyth to the age of xxj yeres my manour

of Bedworthe and Packington with thappurten(a)nces and all the Landis and ten(emen)tis in

Bedworsthe and Packyngton in the Countie of Warwike for terme of his lif and allso

where as I willid and gave unto my said sonne John after he comyth to thage of xxj yeres

Bardon Parkes and the pasture of Bardon with thappurtennces for terme of hys Lyff...