Author Topic: Unknown document in Latin - probably late 16th c?  (Read 1192 times)

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Unknown document in Latin - probably late 16th c?
« Reply #9 on: Monday 17 September 18 17:03 BST (UK) »
I will attempt to answer your questions to the best of my limited understanding.

1.  It's going too far to say that the cases which resulted in fines were fictitious.  They were real cases processed in the real courts before real justices.

The difference is that both parties colluded willingly in the process, and everyone involved (including the justices) would have known all along exactly how the matter would end up.

I have recently transcribed documents from around 1505 relating to a fine involving my ancester.

In this case a number of the intermediate deeds and writs survived with the fine.  They are all very real.

2.  The land is being transferred from the 7 Harrys to John Broade.

As far as I know, the only clue this document provides* to the nature of the transfer (regarding sale/lease) is that they remise and quitclaim from themselves forever.  So it probably isn't a lease, because the owner would retain a reversionary interest in leased land.

This doesn't have to do with the copyhold relationship between a manorial tenant and the lord of the manor.

However, if a manor were conveyed from one lord to another by fine, I'm sure the manor court rolls would acknowledge the transfer.

3.  I'm not sure what is signified by the warranty against the grantor.  In a basic sense the warranty should cover the grantor, but why it is stated explicitly here instead of as part of the contra omnes homines isn't clear.

My instinct is that this is just process, rather than a reflection of previous trouble, but who knows?

4.  Correct.  Sometimes the date and other brief notes are on the back.

5.  Correct, unless I am badly mistaken.


*  However I would like to know more about the meaning of the words between Egidio Harrys and de tribus on the top line.  There may be a clue in this section, which I can't fully transcribe.

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Unknown document in Latin - probably late 16th c?
« Reply #10 on: Monday 17 September 18 17:17 BST (UK) »
Hi

Out of my depth with Latin but for, tribuarius, a, um, adj. [tribus], of or belonging to a tribe or tribes ...

Perhaps belonging to more than one person?

Does that make any sense?

Mark

Added: tribulis, is, m. [tribus], one of the same tribe with another. ...

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Unknown document in Latin - probably late 16th c?
« Reply #11 on: Monday 17 September 18 17:29 BST (UK) »
Thanks Mark.  That word is tribus, which just means 3.  It refers to the number of messuages.

The words I would like to understand are either side of Joh(ann)i Broade.

...q(uo)d iuste &c [ten(?)] Joh(ann)i Broade [Con(?)]...

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Unknown document in Latin - probably late 16th c?
« Reply #12 on: Monday 17 September 18 17:33 BST (UK) »
Hello

In the document for the Medieval Stockingford Grange, Stockingford (now Galley Common) and in the Nuneaton and Stockingford Court's Baron and Court Rolls there are some abbreviations for Tenement.

Could Ten'  be short for Tenement?

Mark


Offline Bookbox

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Re: Unknown document in Latin - probably late 16th c?
« Reply #13 on: Monday 17 September 18 21:24 BST (UK) »
The words I would like to understand are either side of Joh(ann)i Broade.

...q(uo)d iuste &c [ten(?)] Joh(ann)i Broade [Con(?)]...

... q(uo)d iuste (et sine dilatione) ten(eant) Joh(ann)i Broade con(ventionem inter eos factam) de tribus ...

... that in accordance with the law, and without delay, they should hold to an agreement with John Broade made amongst themselves concerning three ...


Offline Bookbox

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Re: Unknown document in Latin - probably late 16th c?
« Reply #14 on: Monday 17 September 18 21:33 BST (UK) »
2.  The land is being transferred from the 7 Harrys to John Broade.

I think the property has already been transferred as a gift from the Harrys family to John Broade --

line 5 Joh(ann)es Broade h(ab)et de dono... (= John Broade holds as a gift ...)

The Harrys are now agreeing to recognise (individually) that Broade is the rightful owner and to undertake not to interfere with his rights of possession.

This doesn't have to do with the copyhold relationship between a manorial tenant and the lord of the manor.

Agreed. I can't see any indication that this is a manorial document.

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Unknown document in Latin - probably late 16th c?
« Reply #15 on: Tuesday 18 September 18 05:46 BST (UK) »
... q(uo)d iuste (et sine dilatione) ten(eant) Joh(ann)i Broade con(ventionem inter eos factam) de tribus ...

... that in accordance with the law, and without delay, they should hold to an agreement with John Broade made amongst themselves concerning three ...

Many thanks for the translation, Bookbox.  It's no wonder I couldn't work it out.

Another one to add to my little library of standard legal Latin.