Joseph Manners Martha Carter Bitton

[orderofthecarter]

Martha Carter and joseph Manners were married about Nov 1879 in Bitton, St Mary, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
church records,
However records office was unable to locate a certificate,

Was that the Bristol records office or the GRO

From GRO index
Marriage Dec qtr 1879 
CARTER    Martha       
MANNERS    Joseph       
Keynsham   reg district 5c   1045

ADDED
FindMyPast have a record from the Bristol Marriage Index  - Archive Bristol for that marriage

Which record office was it that could not locate the marriage record.

Hi, sorry for late reply, 
A copy of the original unavailable from GRO and  Church registries

[orderofthecarter]

Thank you all for your help and suggestions,
 I have been researching My family tree for many years and still unable to find out about two people of interest, I am interested in all of them, anything else anyone may have info on would be a bonus, I have two online trees with ancestry and findmypast, fully loaded with My research so far, although not everything and nowhere near completed,

to recap, in brief,
I am trying to find out what happened to
JOSEPH MANNERS born 1842 approx
MARTHA CARTER born 1861 who was the mother of William Isaac Carter, ( my great great grandfather) have birth certificate,

William Isaac Carter was raised by his grandparents, Isaac and Eliza Carter, beach farm, bitton, upton cheney,A Carter family home,  Martha Carter also lived there, but disappears from 1881 with no further tracability,

I am fairly sure of I searched all records currently available,

Martha Carter is recorded on William Isaac Carter birth certificate, no known father,
Church Baptism, states  Joseph Manners as the Father of william Issac Carter,

there is also a record from the same church a few weeks later saying that Joseph Marners Carter was the father , I have found no other information on this person, so believed to be a mistake,

there is a church inscription suggesting Martha sister Dinah Carter is the mother,of William Issac Carter I think this is a mistake,   as Dinah Carter married a Mr Coles and had a son name William Isaac Coles,

There are also documents suggesting Martha Carter marred a Mr Webb,  but after a detailed search, only a Mary Webb was found, was this Martha

also a unknown significant event happened in approx 1895 as most of the Carter family had simply vanished, and no longer in the known area, I have managed to trace a handful living in Wales approx year 1900, again some moved back to Bitton and Bath,in the early 1900s  I am from Bitton,

The Carter  family core is large, however no one knows much history, in fact not many know / knew of each other, so not much info available there,

Its been a real struggle and have taken many years, for me I really need to find out more, especially about the two people, one of the big reasons is that in my research I may have two Carter families merged together, its has been very frustrating not to mention costly,

any help would be fantastic,
very kind regards

Nathan Carter

[rosie99]

We cannot really progress with Joseph other than what we have already suggested without details from that 'marriage'

When you were searching the registers at Bristol record office was the marriage for George Lewton / Matilda Hunt showing in the register (The marriage on the same reference.) which should have shown as an adjoining entry.  Was there any entry for a marriage 6 Oct 1879 at St Mary, Bitton. 

[Annette7]

For the sake of clarity on this thread, although you firmly state that Martha's son was William Isaac Carter, this form of his name was what he used as an adult - all earlier records (birth, baptism and 1881/1891 census) clearly show him as Isaac William Carter.

Martha Carter married (as we know) Joseph Manners 6/10/1879 - the fact she is shown as still single and with maiden name in 1881 could either be a mistake on behalf of enumerator or that she had split from Joseph Manners and reverted to maiden name (in 1881 anyway).   As Martha Manners she married again to George Francis Webb in Dec.qtr.1886 Bristol - births of their children confirm that her maiden name was Carter.

In 1891 they are in Bristol, 1901 in Monmouthshire where Martha incorrectly shown as 'Mary' and her son William (now married) is with them although incorrectly shown as 'brother in law' of George Webb - it should read 'step son' or, as often used, son-in-law'.   In 1911 still in Monmouthshire and she is once again Martha.

Martha's marriage to George does not appear to be available online but one can only assume she presented herself as Martha Manners, widow (which would appear to be a lie from what I've found).   George F. Webb died Jun.qtr.1936 Pontypool, Martha Webb died Sept.1931 Pontypool.

As to Joseph Manners - I am only able to view a transcription of his marriage to Martha Carter so no idea what his occupation was given as - it would also appear that he was illegitimate as no father is given for him.

I firmly believe that Joseph Manners was the one shown bc.1855 Hinton, Gloucester, a gardener, shown as married in 1881, shown as 'lodger' living with a John and Sarah Manners when he was actually a nephew.   In 1871 he is with his widowed grandmother Phebe Flemming, and in 1861 with Phebe and husband John (surname transcribed as Flemmings) although Joseph listed as Joe, son (?).  Clearly they raised their grandson.

Joseph's birth is recorded in the Dec.qtr.1853 Chipping Sodbury as Joseph Manners Fleming and the new GRO index indicates that he was indeed illegitimate.  You may well already have this birth certificate but it would appear that Joseph was the son of a Matilda Manners - there is a baptism at Hinton of Joseph Manners, son of Matilda, bp.27/7/1859 - again, I can only see a transcription but as he was 4 years old by then I don't know if original states his age at the time.

All indications are that Matilda Manners bc.1832 Abson, was the illegitimate daughter of Phebe Manners bp.20/7/1809 Doynton, dau. of Joseph and Martha Manners.   1841 census would indicate that Joseph and Martha raised Matilda.   Phebe Manners married  a John Flam 25/5/1836 in Bath, Somerset - again, I only have access to transcription so don't know if 'Flam' is an error but John was certainly a Fleming thereafter. (The uncle John Manners who Joseph was with in 1881 was Phebe's brother).

Joseph Manners married again as has been stated to a Lily Rose Blackmore in 1890 - transcription shows him as 'single' (a lie) but again indicates he was illegitimate as no father shown for him.

So, clearly, Joseph Manners and Martha Carter split up soon after their marriage and she remarried to George F. Webb 1886 presumably as  widow as she married in name of Manners, and Joseph Manners remarried in 1890 passing himself off as a single man.  Joseph died Dec.1924 Bristol, and wife as Lilly R. in Jun.1919 Bristol.

Divorce wasn't an option for poor working folk in those days.

Annette

[orderofthecarter]

Martha Carter/Webb and Joseph Manners,

I would like to thank everyone involved with there help and suggestions, and experience, I am very grateful,
Thank you all.

 like I wrote before, I had very little to start my family tree research, a few years ago, at the time I started I did not have much older family left to ask any details and really did not know much of the ones from the past,

I pieced together a puzzle  from years of research, and hoarded a filing cabinet full of documents using as many online sites as possible,  and at times its been, not so much a struggle but more of going round in circles, and have found clarification with some of the replies I have had on here,

And it will continue. will follow the blood line as much as possible, as the surname had jumped a few times in history, but have great clues to work with,

Another strange coincidence, I was raised and still live in the same area as most of my ancestors had lived for 100s of years, but my parents did not come from this area, and they did not know of there past relatives, although my father passed on at a early age, so did not get the chance to ask much,
its strange driving / walking passed old farms, houses and cottages , roads. churches where my ancestors had lived or worked, often thinking to myself if I had a time machine, i would go back and ask them, lol

thanks again and keep up the great work,
kind regards
Nathan Carter

[Annette7]

Martha Carter and joseph Manners were married about Nov 1879 in Bitton, St Mary, Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
church records,
However records office was unable to locate a certificate,

Was that the Bristol records office or the GRO

From GRO index
Marriage Dec qtr 1879 
CARTER    Martha       
MANNERS    Joseph       
Keynsham   reg district 5c   1045

ADDED
FindMyPast have a record from the Bristol Marriage Index  - Archive Bristol for that marriage

Which record office was it that could not locate the marriage record.

Hi, sorry for late reply, 
A copy of the original unavailable from GRO and  Church registries

With regard to your last comment here - I don't understand why the marriage would be unavailable from GRO when it is clearly shown in their index and also why it isn't in 'Church registries'.

FindMyPast have transcriptions of marriages at Bitton (titled 'Gloucester, Bristol Marriage Index') and that, as I stated before, took place 6/10/1879 Bitton.

GRO index shows one other couple's marriage with the same reference details i.e. George Lewton and Matilda Hunt.   FindMyPast have the transcription of this marriage too (except George's surname has been transcribed as 'Leuton') - they also married in Bitton but on 12/10/1879 (6 days after Joseph and Martha), he son of a George, Matilda dau. of a Thomas.

Glad you are pleased with the results you've received on this thread but can I suggest that when you are asked specific questions, as some of the replies have done, that you answer these directly.  It all helps us to help you.

Annette