Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80

[Garen]

A member of my family is trying to find information relating to two soldiers who were in the 66th (Berkshire) Regiment of Foot:

B1395 Joseph Butler killed in action 27th July 1880 at Maiwand.  He enlisted on 30th September 1878.

588 Charles Butler died at Killa Abdoola.  Crossed frontier on 25th August 1880 at Sibi.  He enlisted on 21st August 1877.

My relative has been in contact with the National Archives at Kew but they have suggested a visit.  The information he has came from 3 rolls covering the regiment in WO100/52 at Kew.

Both soldiers are mentioned on the war memorial for the second Afghan War of 1878-1880 in Forbury Gardens, Reading.

Do you think it is possible to find out any more about these two soldiers?  Any pointers would be gratefully received.  Thanks.

Hello KSD - a late reply, my apologies.

Charles Butler crossed the border into Afghanistan on 25 Aug 1880, most probably as part of a detachment that had been left at Karachi in Feb 1880 (when the rest of the regiment marched off to Kandahar) and was now coming up to join what was left of the regiment after the disaster at Maiwand.

As he died at Killa Abdullah (on 14 Sep 1880) it looks like he didn't make it, likely falling ill en-route (possibilities include disease or heat stroke). Killa Abdullah lies between Quetta and Chaman on the way to Kandahar.

It might be worth you getting in touch with the Rifles museum at Salisbury to see if they have any more info.

http://www.thewardrobe.org.uk

Incidentally, they produced an excellent book on Maiwand a couple of years ago - it includes an index of all the men of the 66th, but does not add much to what you have. It does state that Charles was part of the smoothbore battery at Maiwand, but this is a transcript error (that info is supposed to be under James Butler, where it is missing - this info from the author).

It says that Joseph Butler's medal was unclaimed. Perhaps the museum have it in their archives?

Can I ask if these Butlers were brothers?

Best - Garen

[toedwar]

Garen – My information comes from three sources; 1. notes my father left of stories his grandmother (Arthur O’Regan’s sister) had told him; 2. A letter Arthur O’Regan wrote to his sisters dated Feb. 21st (presumed 1884) from Suakin, after his troopship (HMS Jumna) had been diverted to the Sudan when returning to England from India; 3. Information from the book - “Troopships and their History” by Col H C B Rogers OBE, which corroborates and adds to the information in his letter.   The key points of information from these sources relate more to the Sudan than Afghanistan but it hopefully helps to identify his regiment.  From these sources I think his regiment was most likely the 10th Hussars, the M-I (M-1?) Battery RA, or 1st Battalion York & Lancaster (but I don’t see the Y&L in Afghanistan).

1. Family stories - “Her brother, Jack O’Regan, took part in the Afghan campaign, as well as fighting in the Sudan against the Mahdi.   Her first account of his experiences concerns the march of his regiment from Kabul to the relief of Kandahar which was besieged by the Afghanis.  Her brother had said that his regiment was so short of water on a very long, dry and dusty march across the plains that one pint of water per day was all that they were allowed for drinking and washing.   On the way home to England the troopship was stopped at Aden and the troops sent to the Sudan. “ (I suspect the reference to the K to K march may be incorrect)

2.  Letter from Roland O’Regan:  “When we arrived at Aden we were sent on here at once to check a follower of the Mahdi's.  We reached here on the 19th and with the 60th Rifles and with the 2nd Brigade Royal Irish Fusiliers are on our way now to relieve Tokir which is besieged.   We sailed at noon today and shall arrive about 5pm.

We expect to be in action tomorrow, the sooner the better and then I hope they will send us home.   We were served out with arms and accoutrements yesterday.  I suppose you have seen in the paper that the Jumna was ordered here.   ......  I am sure that I will see you all again soon and I hope to have another medal and a little kudos.   (Signed) Roland O’Regan”

3.  “Troopships and their History” by Col H C B Rogers OBE - “On 6th February 1884 the regiment (10th Hussars) embarked at Bombay on board the troopship Jumna, commanded by Captain Uvedale Singleton, R.N.  The 'Tenth' at any rate liked the Jumna, for it is recorded that there was considerable enthusiasm in the regiment at finding itself embarking in the same ship which had brought it out to India eleven years before.

M-I Battery (M-1?), Royal Artillery, was also embarked at Bombay, and then the Jumna sailed down the coast to Vingorla to take on board the 2nd Battalion The Royal Irish Fusiliers. The ship then left for Aden. Approaching Aden she was intercepted … and directed to call at the port for orders. The ship entered the harbour and the troops learned that they were to take on board camp equipment and to disembark at Suakim, ….

On 18th February the Jumna arrived at Suakim, and the following day the 10th Hussars disembarked. On 20th M-I Battery landed, but The Royal Irish Fusiliers remained for the time being on board the Jumna.

The 'Tenth', having been equipped with horses from the Egyptian Gendarmerie, now re-embarked on board the small transports Zag-a-Zig and Hodeida which were to carry them four hours steaming south of Suakim to the harbour of Trinkitat. There they were to join an expedition for the relief of the garrison of Tokar, some twenty miles inland.

In the meantime The Royal Irish Fusiliers had disembarked at Suakim, and had been joined by the 1st Battalion The York and Lancaster Regiment.”

[Garen]

Thanks for all that info, Tom.

We need to establish whether he served in Afghanistan or not. The only evidence you have so far is the testimony of his sister, as told later in life. Family stories - as you'll be well aware, I'm sure - must always be treated with caution, however, I would certainly give this some credence as I doubt the story would have come out of thin air (though that has happened too in the past!).

So which was his regiment? Your regimental info comes from after the Afghan conflict, by which time he could have transferred, but let's check them out first.

10th Lancers: they did serve in the Afghan War, but there is no O'Regan (or similar) on the medal roll. As this regiment is a strong candidate, thanks to the Suakim/Jumna data, the possibility must be considered that he served under an assumed name or he was missed off the roll (unlikely, but anything is possible).

M/1 RA: this battery did not serve in Afghanistan, but many men in the Royal Artillery changed batteries a fair bit. The RA batteries that marched from Kabul to Kandahar were 6/8 and 11/9, with C/2 joining at Khelat-i-Ghilzai - there is no O'Regan (or similar) on the rolls for these units.

I did check a few other RA batteries, particularly those that may have marched from Quetta to Kandahar, but could not see his name either. This is a big list, so my search was not exhaustive - more of a quick scan. He could be there somewhere.

You mentioned the York and Lancaster Regiment - a handful of men from the 65th Foot (its pre-1881 title) were in the Afghan War. Again, no O'Regan on their roll, I'm afraid.

Let's have a quick look at the other British regiments that were on Roberts' Kabul-Kandahar march, in order of likelihood -

9th Lancers: no; 60th Foot: no, there's a James Regan; 66th Foot: no; 72nd Foot: no, there's a Francis Regan; 92nd Foot: no

There are plenty of other regiments that can be checked, but without a pointer it's a big exercise. Of course they all marched over Afghanistan's hot and arid plains, so the medal roll is still an option.

I think the next thing to do is to see if you can find his service record at Kew - that should contain all the answers. Also see if there are any clues on the census - particularly the 1871 and 1891 (as he's likely to have been in India 1881).

Best for now - Garen

[toedwar]

Garen - Thank you so much for your help!  I'm quite certain the story about his service in Afghanistan has merit, but I'm less certain on the Kabul to Kandahar march - it could very well have been a different march.   I've wondered about the question of an assumed name, but as his letter was signed Roland O'Regan I tend towards his actual name, although it could have been misspelt as Organ, or dropped to a surname of Thomas on the rolls.  As you say anything is possible, I agree!

I have him on the 1861 census with his family in Shropshire, and he is listed in the Cambridge Alumni as enrolling in 1874.   I have not been able to find him in the 1871 census nor the 1891 census.  I also found an entry in the Access to Archives from the Gazette dated 15th June 1886 for the dissolution of a business partnership in which he was the guarantor of any business debts.   This is consistent with another family story that he emigrated to South America within one or two years of returning to England, i.e. about 1886-1887.

Cheers, Tom

[martha42]

Sorry mod - duplicate post can you erase please.  Thank you.

[wendyel]

Hi
I have just found the miltary records of my great grandfather Charles Clark and found that he served in South Afghanistan between 1878 -1880. He was awarded the Afghan medal.  Prior to that he was based at Camp Ghariel, Murree then Rawalpindi, Peshawar, Nowera, Dera Ismail Khan and Multan.  His campaigns are listed as Afghanistan and what looks like "LuaRin Expedition" - any ideas about this would be welcome.
Following his time in Afghanistan he was based at Subathu and Umballa and two other place names I cannot as yet decipher before returning home via 'Messiyeh'? Egypt on the troopship HMS Himalaya (September 1884).
If anyone could help me fill in the details, it would be much appreciated, thanks. 

[Garen]

Hello wendyel

Are you able to confirm Charles' regiment? If he was on the Himalaya in Sep 1884, I'm guessing he might have been with the 2nd East Surrey Rgt (previously the 70th Foot) - and if that is the case, was he a Hospital Sergeant? There is a Charles Clark, Hospital Sergeant, with the 70th in Afghanistan.

For 'LuaRin' my best guess would be Suakin, part of the Egypt campaign - and the 2nd East Surreys were there in 1885.

As for 'Messiyeh' - I'm not at all sure*. The troopships traversed the Suez Canal from Bombay to Portsmouth, usually stopping at Port Said. Ismailia is on the Suez. I believe the East Surreys were at Alexandria in 1884 - though actually, that was the 1st battalion.

If you want to scan in some of the difficult words, they might be more recognisable to accustomed eyes.

Best - Garen

*Edit: since worked out this is Abbassiyeh, near Cairo.

[drummo]

In the 1871 census Colour Sergeant James Drummond aged 31 was living in Aberdeen with his wife and children.  His regiment was the 92nd foot Gordon Highlanders.

Some time later, we understand that he was posted with his family to India.  While serving in India, he was awarded the Empress of India medal.

He was then posted to Afghanistan (1878-1880) where he subsequently died.  His family returned to Scotland and his two sons were put in an orphanage with no further trace of his wife and two daughters.  His wife received the Indian medal postumously.

We would like to know how, when, where he died and where he was buried and any further information on his medal?

[Garen]

Hello drummo

James Drummond was killed on 13 December 1879 - he received a gun shot to the abdomen during hand to hand fighting at the assault on the Takht-i-Shah near Kabul. Surgeon Duke described his death:

"…a Highlander stood over his fallen body [that of Lt. St. John Forbes] and bravely defended him, shooting one [Afghan] and endeavouring  to bayonet another, who seized the Highlander's rifle, and a deadly struggle took place, during which he was cut down from behind and killed, and then the officer he had tried to save. Such is the manner in which Lieutenant St John Forbes and Colour-Sergeant James Drummond met their death."

The regimental history notes that:

"Colour-Sergeant Drummond had twenty-one years' service; he was a native of Stanley in Perthshire, and an athlete who excelled in putting the stone and throwing the hammer."

There is a photo of him next to the famous Hector MacDonald in the regimental history (it shows most of the sergeants of the regiment in 1879). I've attached an enlargement below - Drummond is on the left, MacDonald on the right.

James Drummond received the Afghan War medal with two clasps, for Charasia and Kabul. His army number was 488. On the occasion of the Imperial Assemblage at Delhi to honour Queen Victoria being proclaimed Empress of India (1876), one sergeant from each regiment present received a commemoration medal - for the 92nd this was James Drummond.

Do you have any more information about his wife and children (names, dates etc?)

Hope this is useful, all best - Garen