Mystery picture found near site of Canadian plane crash in Wales...who is he?

[Janice M]

I showed the photo to a friend of mine who served in WW2, and he believes that this is an "Enlistment" photo, so that is why he looks so young.

He also pointed out something else. The young man has dark hair, and there are only 3 men in the crew photo with dark hair. One of them, we have already discounted. The other three men have light coloured hair.

Also the two men on either end have quite narrow noses, as well as fair complexions. The young man has in the single photo has a wide nose and medium to dark complexion.

Just something else to think about.

Janice

[J.J.]

Am also asking my sister see if my father can identify anything about them, as he was RCAF, also...I'll let you know what he says...
Caroline, are you receiving the personal messages?

[dennford]

The scarfe has no significence as all aircrew wore scarves to combat the cold.
                                                       Denn

[KarenM]

Perhaps he was in Air Cadets prior to enlisting and that's when the picture was taken?

http://www.cadets.ca/intro_e.asp

Karen

[dennford]

        That's something I had never even considered, but it is certainly a possibility.
        I don't know about others but I for one keep scanning backwards and forwards through the posts, and to be quiet honest - the more posts we get the more I get confused.
         I think it's about time to make two lists - list one being what is known as fact, and list two, the possibilities. That way duplicated facts can be seen and we may also be able to easier marry one thing with another.
                                               Denn
         

[kat2004]

I am not a betting person (too stingy) but I would put  tenner on your man being the one on the right.  I agree with janice, the original photo appears to be an enlistment photo. Wouldnt it be wonderful if you can solve this in time for the weekend with it being Remembrance sunday.

[J.J.]

Here's the summary I put together, with the help of Eillo...
For the newspaper...not that they will use it as is, but to help lessen
confusion. As Denn says, I read through at least 6 times and my head
was spinning...



Over 60 years ago six young Canadian airmen lost their lives while on Training Duty over the Midlands of Wales.

 Caroline ‘s story:

“My grandfather, Eric Price was in his early 20's when the crash happened and lived a village called Ynyswen, in the Swansea Valley, South Wales, UK.  On the night of the crash, he, and a few others he was with, heard the plane in the sky .  A little later he saw a glow in the mountains...the plane had crashed into the mountain and caught fire.  At the time nobody knew what had happened or anything about the crew.  The following day there was talk in the village about the crash and it was confirmed that the plane had come down and had caught fire and this was what they had seen.

Three days later he went for a walk to the wreck.  The mountain range can be seen from his front door and there is a sheep path which leads you along the range (his dog went too!).  He walked around the wreck and picked up what he thinks was a piece of the wing.  Underneath he saw a piece of white card.  He turned it over and it was a picture facing down.  He said that if it had been facing up he thinks it wouldn't have been in such good condition.  He didn't know who to give the picture to and didn't want to throw it away.  He put it in his pocket not wanting to leave it at the crash to blow away etc so it went home with him.  With no idea what to do with it or how to return it, the picture has been kept safe at his home for 61 years this month. 

A while ago he mentioned it to a cousin who found out from some internet sites that it was a Canadian plane and crew.  Until my cousin found out this information he had no idea.  I've been looking into my family tree lately and mentioned to him about what information you can find on the internet these days so I posted this picture on an internet site for the Armed Forces and the response has been amazing. 

 

Since the posting on Rootschat.com she has received this information on the crew:

Flight History: Wales
Aircraft MF509 a Wellington MK10 took off from Stratford-Upon-Avon, satellite airfield to RAF Wellesbourne Mountford ( No22 Operational Training Unit) at 19.26 hours on Nov.20th 1944 for a night cross country navigation training exercise.. Shortly before 20.50 hrs the crew sent a radio message asking permission to go below cloud as they were having trouble with the starboard engine, perhaps due to icing in the carburetor. Permission was granted and as they descended over the mountains of the Brecon Beacons their aircraft flew into the South West slope of Carreg Goch. There is a small memorial at the crash site to honour the crew who died there.


Information extracted from The Canadian Virtual War Memorial:
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/remembers/sub.cfm/collections/virtualmem

Nationality: Canadian RCAF   Service numbers ommitted   
All are buried at Blacon – Chester  Cemetery


JOSEPH PAUL ERNEST  BURKE
Rank:   Sergeant (W.Op./Air Gnr.)
Age:   20
Service No:   R/206904
Son of William & Dorine Burke, of West Bathurst, Gloucester Co., New Brunswick. 

JOSEPH ARTHUR EDMOND GROULX
Rank:   Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Age:   22
Service No:   R/111476
Son of Arthur & Alexandrine Groulx, of Hull, Quebec
 
JOSEPH LIONEL UNDERIC DU SABLON 
Rank:   Sergeant (Air Gnr.)
Age:   20
Service No:   R/174038
Son of Lionel Olivier & Mary Lea Du Sablon, of De Gaspe, Montreal, Quebec

WILLIAM JOSEPH ALLISON
Rank:   Flight Lieutenant (Air Bomber)
Age:   28
Service No:   J/20861
Son of William Earle Allison & Mary Ruth Allison, Montreal, Quebec

JULES ROBERT RENE VILLENEUVE,
Rank:   Sergeant (Nav.)
Age:   22
Service No:   R/199834
Son of Jean B. Villeneuve & Clara Villeneuve, of Verdun, Quebec
his half brother was Senator Earl Scofield. *

CHARLES HAMEL
Rank:   Pilot Officer (Pilot)
Age:   21
Service No:   J/92169
Son of Dr. Paul Hamel & Bertha Ellen Hamel, of Montreal, Quebec

 
 

**Also some information and a photo have been found for W.J. Allison, and some genealogy on J. R. R. Villeneuve***

 

Caroline goes on to say:

“If there are any family members out there who would like the picture returned I will be more than happy to do so and end a 60 year old mystery to find the identity of the man in the picture.”


 

* See page 11 of http://www.metisnation.org/metisVOYAGEUR/mv05may.pdf

**  http://www.education.mcgill.ca/ww2fields/mcgill/lists/abrams2.htm

 **  http://www.education.mcgill.ca/ww2fields/mcgill/wrc/allison-wj.jpg

*** http://www.geocities.com/MathurinVilleneuve/

 


Other web sites found:

wreckage in the mist:
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/ww/cg/cg.html
http://www.clwb-cerdded-ystalyfera.i12.com/pages/mf509.htm
http://www.gpswalker.cwc.net/wellington.htm
(hover over photo to see wellington ) http://us.geocities.com/warrenvadams/621adventure.htm

 



~~~~~~~~

[Janice M]

Hi Caroline

I have heard from the family of J.P. Ernest Burke, and they are so excited about seeing the photo of the crew.

The lady who wrote to me is Ernest's neice. In her letter, she states that she would like to thank you directly.

Ernest's sister is still alive, and her daughter Suzanne is going to show her the photo.

The city of Bathurst had also put an article in the paper with a picture of Ernest's brother Eric receiving the letter and photographs. They have forwarded this to me which I am posting for all to see.

Janice

[liverpool annie]

How cool is that??

Wonderful - wonderful work you guys!!

I'm so glad there has been some results .... 

Congratulations!!

Annie