BROWN/WILLOUGHBY/FORD/COETZEE

[sweet_nomes]

Hello All,

I am attempting to find information regarding my great-grandmother's family in South Africa.

My great-grandmother was EDITH EILEEN BROWN - oldest living survivor of the Titanic, until her death in 1997.  Her parents were a THOMAS WILLIAM SOLOMON BROWN and ELIZABETH CATHERINE FORD.  (married in Aug 1890)

FORD was TWS BROWN's second wife - his first being ISABELLA GRECEILDA WILLOUGHBY (b. 1853, d. 1889)  They were of 1820 Cape Colony Settler Stock.

They had 5 children, William James, (b. 1875), Lillian Hendrietta (b. 1878, d. 1947), Harriet Elizabeth Maria (b. 1880, d. 1961), Thomas Andrew Ralph (b. 1882, d. 1959), and Ernest Herbert Willoughby (b. 1886, d. 1914). 

THOMAS ANDREW RALPH BROWN married a MAGDALENA CORNELIA COETZEE (the youngest of 14 children), her parents were a JOHANNES JACOBUS HENDRIK COETZEE (although some research points to him having the first name, Hendrik) and JOHANNA MARIA ROBERTS, who by all accounts were a highly respecte Free State Family - fighting for the Boers during the war.  Johannes/Hendrik was the cousin of President PAUL KRUGER.

If anybody has information at all (or knows where I can find more) I would love to hear from you - regardless of how small or insignificant you may think it.  I have attempted to do 'internet' South African research, and it has been a nightmare!

I look forward to hearing from anyone,

Warmest Regards,  Naomi

[EmPea]

Hi Naomi

I found a reference for THOMAS ANDREW RALPH BROWN in our National Archives which is probably his Estate file.  Unfortunately I am not in the Gauteng province (formerly Transvaal) where it is housed so cannot look up the actual document for you. The reference is :
DEPOT   :  TAB  (Public Records of former Transvaal Province)
SOURCE    :  MHG (Master of the Supreme Court, Pretoria. Estates (1873-1976)
TYPE   : LEER                                                                 
VOLUME_NO   :  0                                   
SYSTEM   :  01
REFERENCE  :  1445/58
PART  :  1
DESCRIPTION  :  BROWN, THOMAS ANDREW RALPH.                                           
STARTING  :  19580000                                                             
ENDING   :  19580000                                                             
REMARKS   :  PREDECEASED SPOUSE MAGDALENA CORNELIA BROWN.

From this you can assume that he died in 1958.  I can't find an Estate file for her in our Archives.

I did a quick hunt but could not find anyone researching the Coetzee or Roberts families who had a website.

The WILLOUGHBY's were not listed on the 1820 Settlers website although there were 400 odd BROWN's - none of who were named THOMAS WILLIAM SOLOMON though.

Do you understand Afrikaans?

Regards
Moira

[EmPea]

Hi Naomi

Just looking at your message again. 

Did THOMAS WILLIAM SOLOMON BROWN and ELIZABETH CATHERINE FORD  (married in Aug 1890) live in South Africa?  If they did, do you know if there were there any children?

Although you don't specify, am I correctly assuming that your main surname interest is COETZEE?

Regards
Moira

[sweet_nomes]

Hi Moira!

Thanks so much for finding that information for me!!  Do you know of any way I can access that file/document without physically being in South Africa? 

I do not speak Afrikaans, but my grandfather who spent a few years in South Africa as a child does. 

TWS Brown was born in 1852 in Cape Colony, so I can only assume that his parents, to whom I have no details of - were the settlers of 1820.  TWS Brown is my Great Grandfather. 

Regarding your second message, yes, TWS Brown and Elizabeth Catherine Ford did live in South Africa, that is where they met before they married in Aug 1890.  They had 2 children, an Edith Eileen Brown b. 1896 Worcester, and a Dorothy Brown, b. 1900(about) in Cape Colony.  Dorothy died in 1908.

Coetzee is of a big interest to me, however, my relations only married into this family - and I just assumed because they were cousins of the first President, Paul Kruger, that there would be more information to be found on them - hence, hopefully leading to further information regarding the Browns and Fords, who are my main interest in South Africa. 

Elizabeth Catherine Ford's parents were a Frank Ford and a Charlotta Grief - however I do not have any information regarding their births/deaths/residence in South Africa.

Thanks again for providing me with some information regarding the family - I have been looking for quite some time, and it is quite difficult living in Australia, with limited resources and links!!

I look forward to hearing from you again soon, 

Warmest Regards

Naomi

[EmPea]

Hi Naomi

You can't access the actual document online but you can look up names on the website http://www.national.archives.gov.za/index.htm and get more of the same type of info I gave to you.  Some people have said NASA is a nightmare to use but it is really simple once you get the hang of it.  On the LHS choose the 5th link "Search National Automated..."  The best database to choose is RSA as it encompasses all the other databases listed.  Once on the search page, I have found that it is best to split the first name & surname over two lines as you get a better result.  You can then filter that result further.

The Coetzee name is so common here and with the naming convention used it is actually difficult to start with.   There could be more than one, say JOHANNES JACOBUS HENDRIK, around at the same time either in the same generation because the first one died so the next son was named the same, or cousins could share the same name or even uncles being born around the same time.  You have to keep your wits about you.  As you saw MAGDALENA CORNELIA COETZEE was the youngest of 14 children whose parents probably came from families of 14 children each - the numbers are huge and unless someone did something that stood out, they are not easy to find especially using only the internet as a resource.

The reason I wanted to know if you spoke Afrikaans is that Coetzee is considered an Afrikaans surname and there is a Group on Yahoo for SA Genealogy but posts may only be made in Afrikaans.  It is moderated and I assume any posts in English are removed as I have never seen any!

I did some more searches on NASA for Ford & Brown and think I may have found the Estate Files for FRANK FORD (1881) and CHARLOTT HENDRIKA FORD nee GREEFF (1880).  I used a bit of local knowledge on the spelling of her maiden name.  (Notice her first name does not have an "a" on the end of it but it may not be correct)

I also found the Death Notice and two Liquidation & Distribution Account's for THOMAS WILLIAM SOLOMON BROWN (1913) as well as a lot of Mortgage Bond files ranging between 1886 to 1904. 

Both the FORD & BROWN files are in the Cape Town Archives and as I am going there sometime this week (if I can stop getting involved in things that I am not personally researching!!  ), I can look them up for you if you like.

Regards
Moira

[sweet_nomes]

Hi Moira,

Thanks for that information!  I've found a few Coetzee websites and as you say, they're all in Afrikaans, and there are soo many Johannes Coetzee's that I wouldn't know where to start.

That would be absolutely fantastic if you could look up the FORD & BROWN files in the Cape Town Archives for me when you go!  Do those files have to stay in the archives or can they be removed or photocopied?  What type of information is provided? It is going to be very interesting to see what type of information you uncover - I am really excited!!

I look forward to hearing from you soon,

Warmest regards and many thanks for your help. 

Naomi x

[sweet_nomes]

Moira,

Further to my last message, I forgot to say that I am more than happy to pay for any photocopying costs and postage of the details from you to me, regarding the files that you may find in the National Archives in Cape Town.  I am truly grateful for your kindness.

Naomi

[EmPea]

Hi Naomi

Wow, what an experience looking through ggrandfathers Estate File.  I really felt the history.

In answer to your previous questions first - No, one cannot remove the files from the Archive.  Because some of the files are very fragile, they may not even be photocopied anymore.  For those that are still permitted to be copied, it takes a while - 2 weeks I think and it is quite expensive per page.  Most people take digital pictures like I have.

I took quite a few pic's of various documents in his file.  Must I send them to your hotmail address or is there a limit on the size of file you can receive through that account?  I must warn you that the pics are big – around 1,3MB each.  I take them at the biggest I can so that you can zoom in and they still stay clear.

I notice that I didn't take full pics of his actual Liquidation & Distribution Account and if you want those I am going back soon so I can get them for you.  Just let me know.

Some other info which I didn't take pictures of are the daughters’ husbands names:- 
Lilian married Joseph Woolf
Harriet married W A Bosman (no names given and another Afrikaans name for you!)
Edith married Fred T Haisman in Johannesburg on 30 June 1917.  There are some interesting letters from him on file.

I have since found the Estate file number for ISABELLA GRACILLA BROWN nee WILLOUGHBY (died 1889) and can look that up the next time I go into the Archive if you are interested in the contents.  Let me know.

On to the FORD's....

Unfortunately, the FRANK FORD’s I had earmarked was not the guy you are looking for.  (In fact, I think I may be distantly related to one I looked up and may have done some advance research here!)

However, the CHARLOTTE CATHARINA FORD nee GREEFF was the correct one!  The Death Notice is very difficult to read and some words were almost illegible.  I have a scan of a form I normally use to record details and I think I have them recorded as they should be.

The Death Notice has the name Catherina spelt Chatarina for everywhere and I don't think that that is correctly recorded.  I would think that it should be the conventional Catherina.  For Charlotte, I think it should be an “e” at the end of her name.  I just think the guy who wrote up the Death Notice was not very accurate.

I will look and see if I can find anything for Frank Murray Ford.

May I ask who your grandfather is that lived in SA?  Is he a descendant of the Brown's?

You are going to love seeing the documents I have – even I was thrilled to see them.  Just think, your family survived the Titanic…. WOW!  What a legacy.

Regards
Moira

[sweet_nomes]

Hello Moira!

WOW!  Thank you so much!  I look forward to receiving the documents soo much!  Yes, you can send it to my hotmail account - I am a paid subscriber so I do not have a size limit (thank goodness for times like these!!)

I'd love for you to take more pictures when you go back, if that is possible.  Especially the letters from Fred T Haisman (my great grandfather!).  I am also very interested in Isabella Gracilla Brown (nee Willoughby).

My grandfather that lived in South Africa was Donald Leonard Haisman.  He was born in Southampton, Hampshire, but I think he spent about 10 years of his life in South Africa, yes, he is a decendant of the Brown's.  (Edith Eileen Brown's son).

Moira, word's can describe how appreciative I am of your time and help with this.  I can't wait to receive the files!!

Thank you again,

Naomi