Questions about Adoption in 1927/ 1928

[Cell]

Hi,
I have some queries about adoption, which I hope someone with knowledge on this subject can answer some of my questions. I've read the gro website but  still don't quite fully understand it.

If a person was adopted ( I'm talking about 1927/1928) and this person was never told by the adoptive parents (who are long dead now)  that he/she was adopted, how would this person know themselves that they were adopted?

Say for instance, years later, the person  goes to the local reg office to get their own birth cert as they never had one in their own possession ,and he/she only then finds out that there is no such person registered under their own name, or any person registered to the parents in the years they  were born: Do the people at the reg office check the adoption register as a matter of procedure? If they don't check as a matter of procedure when a birth can not be found, and this person then just assumes that their parents did not register the birth  - ie the person does not really delve into why they are not registered so  then carries on with their life without the birth cert - How would this person get a passport?

So many questions I know!

 Also ,can I as a relative , or my parent who's a sibling to the person  ( but obviously I, or my parent are not  blood relatives if he/she is adopted) ,ask the GRO if they can check if my grandparents ever adopted a child in 1927/1928 ?   I understand that the register is arranged by the surname of the adoptive parents?  I  also understand that if he/she was adopted that I can not access their original  birth cert with their real birth name on it whatever that maybe , and the real parents name(s) ( which I  really don't want access that) only he/she can, or the  blood relatives (?) - All I would like to know is; If my grandparents ever adopted a child, would I be able to find out from the GRO if they did- And if so, how do I go about it? Is it just a matter of filling in the online form for an adoption cert, and paying the 10 pound fee? 

 I'm 100% sure the birth is not registered under the Christian name this person was given by my grandparents, or  by any other Christian names under their surname (I've looked through all the births to the surname ) - or even under  any year from the time they married ( I know he/she was born 8 years after they married - so  he/she wouldn't be under my grandmother's maiden name. Even so, if he/she  was registered  under my grandmother's maiden name for whatever reasons  I would have found it- I've also checked that)

It's not just the fact that he/she is not registered under my grandparents surnames in the birth indexes in any year- It's a few other things too ,which leads me to have very strong suspicions that he/she was quite possibly adopted by my grandparents.

Another question I have too is  (Sorry for the long post, and so many questions): In the years of 27/28  did you have to officially adopt, or foster  a child  that you decided to bring up?  For example, could a couple have taken in a child unofficially. For instance a  friend's/neighbour's or relatives child ,and brought the child up as their own without any official documentation at all?

Kind Regards

[Little Nell]

When a legal adoption order is made, a new birth certificate is issued for the adopted child.  There is no link from this birth certificate to the original birth certificate.  If the potential adoptee ever applied for their own birth certificate, it would be the one issued in the new name showing their adoptive parents that they would receive.  They need to look in the Adopted persons register.  They are filed under the date of adoption.

So first question has this person ever applied for their birth certificate?  If they were not adopted until months after their birth or even years, you need to look at a wider time frame than just the quarters around their birthday.

If they were NOT legally adopted, then they may have been taken on by family members.  Prior to 1927, there was no  legal framework for this - it happened.

If children were apparently left orphans by the death of one or both parents, an organisation like Barnados may have become involved and the children put into foster care with strangers or even sent abroad.  This could still happen even if there were family members willing to take them, but I can't say how widespread it was.  All I can say is it happened to some great great uncles.

I also know of a great great uncle who was "adopted" in the early years of the 20th century but not by relatives - his mother was still alive.  His son has now reverted to his father's birth name.  Very confusing.

You might also like to check out this thread

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,129677.0.html

Nell

[Cell]

Thank you for the explanation Nell,
In that case it looks as if my parent's sibling is not legally adopted because I have checked all quarters up until 7 yrs after he was born ( I'll check  further years up until he's 14 to totally rule it out)

I've also  re checked twice , gone through all the quarters again just in case I blinked and missed the entry - The person is 100%  definitely not under their given name or any other name to my grandparents surname in any year in a 15 yr period ( I also went  through 8 yrs before the date I know this person was born ) . It's easy finding the births to my grandparents because  my grandmother has a very uncommon maiden name :so  if this person was registered under my grandparents surnames in the indexes  I would have definitely found the entry.

Perhaps my parent's suggestion maybe the only answer, steal the comb (DNA)  - I don't think my parent is serious- I hope not !!

Kind Regards

[Valda]

It wouldn't just be a passport that would be a problem to obtain without a birth certificate, any other process that needed proof of age and or nationality such as a pension would be fraught with immense complications.
Have you checked with the local registrar where you think the birth may have been registered as well as the GRO index which has errors and ommissions in it. Would there be any reason for the birth to have been registered in the overseas section, Scotland etc.

Regards

Valda

[Cell]

Hi Nell,
My parent's sibling for  100% sure wasn't born overseas, my grandparents lived all their lives in the valleys , where my own parent was born and grew up , where my parent's  father was born , and where  my grandparents died  in the 70's- humble coalminers.

I haven't checked with the local reg office, I'll get my parent to do that ( who is back there - I'm in Aus)  if not , I'll write to them - but for sure this person is not in the GRO indexes . I've got to tread so softly, because the person is alive.

Kind Regards

[Little Nell]

Cell,

Are you checking the normal GRO index of births?  That does not contain adoptions!

You need a check in the register for adoptees and that is not open to public inspection.  See here:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/adoptions/adoptedchildrenregister/index.asp

Nell

[Cell]

Hi Nell,
Yes, The GRO indexes. I was under the wrong  impression that if the person is adopted there should still be an entry for the person in the normal indexes with the given adopted name, but of course it wouldn't say adopted in the indexes.

" a new birth certificate is issued for the adopted child.  There is no link from this birth certificate to the original birth certificate"

This is what I thought : Say the child's birth name was Tom Jones, then my grandparents  legally adopt Tom Jones and they name this child Harry Secombe - A Harry Secombe will then be entered into the GRO Birth Indexes - When a person orders and receives this cert it will have my grandparents names on it, but it will say they are the adoptive parents on the cert .So then the adopted person themselves have to apply to access the info in the adoption registers to track down their original birth cert to find out who their birth parents are.

I've got that all wrong,and there will be no entry with the legally adopted new name  in the normal birth indexes with the GRO -  So coming back to one of my original questions; How would a person know that they were adopted if their parents never told them, and they do not have their original birth cert, or an adoption cert?

 For example, If the person applied to the local reg office or the GRO to get their birth cert with their adopted name ( this person of course does not know it is an adopted name , the person thinks it's their birth name) , the GRO obviously wouldn't  find it in the normal birth indexes - So would they then( the GRO, or local reg office)  as a matter of common procedure ( without being asked by the person in question, who hasn't even thought that they maybe adopted) check the adoption register to see if this person is adopted ?

I'm absolutely clueless on this subject as you can see!!

 I can confirm that this person is definitely not registered in the birth indexes . I phoned my parents last night, and they told me that they had been to the local reg office yesterday, where the person should be registered   -  the person is not registered with them either, so it looks as if it isn't one of the GRO's omissions/errors in their indexes.

I can probably get the baptism of the person, I know which church my parent and sibling were baptised at, but I doubt that will be of any help.

The adoption certificates; I have looked at the GRO site for ordering of them, but it wants an exact birth date  DD/MM.YY(  what if the exact day and month that I believe, and this person themselves believes it to be - is not the real birth date, and they were born say one month before) - Do you know if they check around the given date too?

Also, can a person ask the GRO if an adoption certificate exists for a person born on so and so date, before actually placing an order, and paying 10 pounds for something that may or may not exist?

Thank you for being so patient and the help you've  given me,I'm absolutely clueless on this subject!
Kind regards

[carol8353]

My cousin was adopted in the 1960's- by my aunt and uncle 

She is only registered in the GRO indexes under the name that her birth mother gave her when she was born- luckily my aunt and uncle kept all the papers and gave them to her when they felt she was old enough to understand.

She was not re-regsitered under her new name at all- I presume that at the GRO there is a link in the actual certs to the fact that she now has a new name to the one she was born with....and they would then be able to issue a new birth cert in the case of passport etc.

I also have a friend who had no idea he was adopted till age 36.
He went to the FRC with a pal one lunchtime and whilst there,idly checked for his own birth- which should have been in 1949. Nothing there.
He asked the man at the desk,who then said "is there any chance you could have been adopted. "

When he gave this some thought he realised that it was possible,his parents were quite old,he was an only child and didn't seem to have anything in common with them.....no family traits.

He then had to undergo councilling before they would issue his original birth cert. His adopted mum had alzheimers by then so he couldn't ask her.
He found out who his birth mum was and set off to visit her,but she had died just a year before,but her sister answered the door,and knew immediately who he was.More or less said we'd been expecting you one day.

They sat in the garden and he was told that his real dad was a musician(married!) and everything fell into place.There was no chance of them ever marrying so he was given up for adoption.

So you see that the birth would be under the name his 'real' mum gave him,and only he can apply for his adoption info- no one else.

All the best

Carol

[Valda]

The Family Records Centre hold the GRO indexes

'Public Index to Adopted Children'

which begin in 1927. The indexes contain the person's new name, but not their old name (which would be registered normally in the GRO indexes - remember you have up to 6 weeks to register a birth, so a birth in say December can often appear in the following quarter in that case that would be in the next year), their year of birth and the date of the adoption. There is a special form to fill out and various procedures depending on the date of the adoption (see Little Nell's link). Only the person concerned can access further details from the reference given in this index or presumably a direct descendent if that person has since died.

Since you are indicating the person concerned is probably over 65 they would have to have produced a birth certificate to be in receipt of a pension and various other documentation such as passport or driver's licence.

Regards

Valda