Industrial & Ragged School, Carrick St, Ayr

[janwbay]

Hello there

I hope someone can help.  I am trying to find the records of the Industrial and Ragged School, which was at 34 Carrick Street, Ayr.  I want to know what happened to my relation who was there in 1861 census aged 12.

Ev on this forum gave me a reference to the NRAS in in Edinburgh, and this is their reply:

The records of the above school were listed by the National Register of Archives for Scotland when they were in a lawyer’s office in Ayr in 1957 (NRAS183). Sadly our information is that these records were destroyed when the basement of their offices was cleared nearly 40 years ago. I realise this will be disappointing news for you.

Ayrshire Archives do hold a minute book of the school for the period 1851-1870 (ref: CO3/10/2) and it would be worthwhile your contacting them as they may have knowledge of other sources held locally.

I just wondered if any one has any ideas of where else to try,  or knowledge of where the records could be. I will get in touch with the archives, but have been told to wait until they are in their new building.

Please help, - I am obsessed.

Thanks
Janice

[MonicaL]

Nothing wrong with obsessed Janice, it's what achieves results lots of the time 

How frustrating for you. I've kept any eye out on your post to see what you found on Agnes. That newspaper story of the events leading up to her father's suicide is one of those that has stuck in my head.

Hopefully someone will be able to provide some new pointers for you.

Monica 

[janwbay]

Thanks for your message Monica

I feel so desperate for the bairn.  Her mother died when she was 4.  When she was 11, her father committed suicide.  Her father involved her by getting her to obtain the equipment he used to kill himself.  She could have been the one to find him dead, - thankfully she didn't. 

She ended up in the Ragged School despite having a brother and an uncle.  Her brother erected a stone in Wallacetown Cemetery to his parents Joh Fisher and Agnes Wren (Rann), and did not mention Agnes.  We wonder if somehow she was blamed for helping him, despite her only being a child. 

I know that it was a long time ago, but I would love to know why she went into the school, when she had a brother.  He was a baker in Glasgow and had a family.  Why did they not take her?  Why did her uncle not take her?

I want to know where she went when she left the school.  The records usually say where someone is going if they are going into employment etc.

We have now found out that she married in Glasgow, when she was 42, and died aged 65 in 1913.  She had no children.  Where was she from 1861 census until 1890 when she married?

I really hope that we can find out.

Thanks
Janice

[MonicaL]

You found her marriage - well, that's a major step on  . What details showed on her marriage cert: husband's name, address, occupation, witnesses etc. She was married by the sounds it just before the 1891 census in Glasgow (?), so there is at least 1871/81 to find  assuming she didn't skip over to Ireland in the interim years

Monica

[janwbay]

This is her marriage and death certificate and the 1891 and 1901 censuses of her after her marriage in 1888.

I have looked at the lists of passengers as I thought she may have gone to Canada or somewhere else, but could not find someone who was definitely her.

If anyone else would also like to come in with any idea or opinions, I would be very grateful.

Thanks
Janice

[MonicaL]

Hi Janice

I think John Norval may have been married (or passing off as married) prior to his marriage to Agnes. There is only one John Norval showing in the censuses born in Falkirk anywhere near his birth years. He shows with his family up to 1861 and then disappears from the index for 1871 and by 1881:

John Norval 37, gen. lab. b Falkirk
Rosanna Norval 33, wife b. Ireland

Address: Mungallend, Falkirk

The next entry is the one with him married to Agnes in 1891. Can't see a marriage for him to a Ros* in Scotland prior to 1881 nor can I see a death for a Ro* Norval between 1881-88. So, jury's out on that one.

There is certainly nothing showing for Agnes for the 1871/81 censuses under Fisher in Scotland. One possibility is that she may be down as 'wife' and living with a 'husband' in those census years, although no marriage entry to be able to identify her, only birth year and place of birth. Agnes was very consistent with her place of birth and birth year, in fact, her marriage age is the only one I have seen that is slightly out as she would have been 40 rather than 42 in 1888. All the censuses that have been found for her and her DC confirm her 1848 birth year.

Monica 

[MonicaL]

Janice

Going back to a point made by Flst on one of the previous posts. It might be worthwhile you investigating, for background, whether there is a poor relief application(s) made by John Fisher, father, in the years prior to his death. Also, in the absence of records for the Industrial School, I would imagine there could well be a poor relief application made for Agnes, following her father's suicide in 1859. There would have had to be the involvement of the Authorities (Kirk, Parochial Board etc.) to determine what was going to happen to young Agnes following her father's death and leading up to the decision to send her to the Industrial School, dependent on the on-going circumstances at the time.

I understand that the Ayrshire Archives are in the process of relocating but this is a record of what they hold:

www.ayrshirearchives.org.uk/parishrec.htm

To give  you an idea of what these application can contain, have a look at this link provided by Dave yesterday which includes a film at the Mitchell Library covering Poor Relief applications. Gives a good insight as to what these applications can contain (Lanarkshire is a good area for the maintenance of poor relief applications. Not all were, Edinburgh for example destroyed most of theirs  )

www.scotlandontv.tv/scotland_on_tv/discover/Mitchell_Library_Scottish_Family_Research.html  - click on Part 5 and 6

Monica

[janwbay]

Thanks for all this wonderful information Monica.  Its really helpful.

I have already looked at the website below, but did not find anything re John or Agnes Fisher.  Perhaps the library will have more information?

http://www.ayrshire-roots.co.uk/vSignup/database.php

I should have looked for more information on the poor records before now, but I got them mixed up with the Ragged School records, thinking they were the same, which patently they are not!

I did a search on the Ancestry census records for Agneses born in St. Quivox in 1848, and there were four.  By the way, I have not been able to do a search like that on Scotland's People.

I have tried to follow each one through, and I think that Agnes Smith who is in the 1871 census may be Agnes Fisher.  (I have I may have been watching too many mystery films.) She is a general servant and is listed as a niece of the Stewart family.   William and Agnes Stewart.  He is from Perthshire and there is a second niece Jane, from Perth living with them.  The wife is from Ayr.  Agneses marrying William Stewart's do not seem to show a link with the Fisher or Wren / Rann family.

I have no idea where this is taking me.  I think I am going round in circles.

I have checked the Agnes Fishers who married earlier and none of them are her, until the one in 1890 to John Norval.

I have tried to trace the witnesses at their wedding to see where they were before 1890, but there does not seem to be any link which would point to where Agnes was.

I will get in touch with the library re the Poor Records.

Thanks again for all your help and input.  I really enjoyed the Mitchell Video about the Poor Records.

best wishes
Janice