Author Topic: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2  (Read 6039 times)

Offline Brian1

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • View Profile
Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« on: Monday 05 September 05 23:30 BST (UK) »
Wonder if anyone can help me. I had an uncle Thomas James Gordon ( 966724 ) serving in 201 squadron during WW2 on Sunderland Flying Boats as an airgunner. His was shot down on 21.8.41. in the area off the Orkney's. In his documents he is described as a leading aircraftsman, the same is true for the Runnymede inscription, but I am under the impression that all aircrew were automatically given the rank of Sergeant. I also thought that this lead to some discontent with older members of the mess who viewed these new n.c.o's as upstarts
Anyone got any views?
Brian1
Arnold ( Lancs ). Gordon ( Lancs, Scotland ). Dowling. ( Ireland, England, Massachusetts, Australia, Buenos Aires ) Pugh ( Pew) ( Cheshire & Lancs). Cordial ( Ireland )

Offline Bryan.

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • 1938 - 2006
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« Reply #1 on: Monday 05 September 05 23:59 BST (UK) »
Hi
Just found this.

Rank could be an A.C.1 or up,but with the start of the war the new Air Gunners badge came into being and then all flying personnel were awarded the rank of Seargant.

Bryan
Brownell...Sheffield.
Rodgers....Sheffield
Harper...Great Barford,Beds. 
Hull...Roxton,Beds
Wostenholme,Sheffield, 
Elliot, Baslow,Derbyshire
Duke, Birmingham.....Sheffield
Palmer, Nottingham....Holbeach
Hall,Nottingham

:-*   8)    ::)     :o

Any census information included in this post is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Brian1

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 06 September 05 00:02 BST (UK) »
Hi Bryan,
As you can see by the details above he was killed in August 1941, so the war had been underway for some month's, but letters from his C.O. to my g. mother and official statistics still list him as a Leading aircraftsman.
Something doesn't quite gell!
Brian1
Arnold ( Lancs ). Gordon ( Lancs, Scotland ). Dowling. ( Ireland, England, Massachusetts, Australia, Buenos Aires ) Pugh ( Pew) ( Cheshire & Lancs). Cordial ( Ireland )


Offline manmack

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,225
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 06 September 05 00:55 BST (UK) »
hello bryan,he could have been killed shortly before promotion,his papers may not have gone through in time so the rank he held when he was killed would be the one given on the cwgc,the MK1 sunderland was used by 7 squadrons at the beginning of the war,only 90 being built,i think your uncle thomas may have been flying on a MK2,they were introduced in august 1941,mack
military history,mainly ww1,manchester pals battalions,tyneside irish +tyneside scottish brigades,leeds,liverpool,accrington,birmingham,hull,barnsley,swansea and salford pals.

Offline Brian1

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 06 September 05 08:12 BST (UK) »
Hi Mack,
Thanks for the info. I have a photo taken shortly before he died and he is wearing sergeant chevrons, but possibly they were allowed to wear them prior to their promotion being made substantive.
Brian1
Arnold ( Lancs ). Gordon ( Lancs, Scotland ). Dowling. ( Ireland, England, Massachusetts, Australia, Buenos Aires ) Pugh ( Pew) ( Cheshire & Lancs). Cordial ( Ireland )

Offline manmack

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,225
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 06 September 05 12:56 BST (UK) »
brian,your right,i have many pictures of lance sergeants in the manchester pals who are still wearing two stripes,a lance sgt is a corporal[paid] who is waiting for the next vacant sgts post,but hes allowed to wear three stripes,its similar to your uncles case,if you can find out the MK sunderland he was flying that may solve it,he was killed in aug and the MK11 was introduced in aug,so there was very little time for his papers to clear,mack
military history,mainly ww1,manchester pals battalions,tyneside irish +tyneside scottish brigades,leeds,liverpool,accrington,birmingham,hull,barnsley,swansea and salford pals.

Offline manmack

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,225
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 06 September 05 13:52 BST (UK) »
brian,this lads father was flt sgt 523695 robert [bob] dickie,he was responsible for sorting out the effects of crew members who were killed,hes looking for others who served with the squadron,this is his e.mail address
[email protected]
and this lady is also looking for others who served with her father,flt sgt 1905022 simon,joseph rutledge,this his her e.mail address
[email protected].
the squadron didnt start re-equipping with sunderlands till early 1941[may]prior to that,they were flying MK11 london flying boats,they operated from the depot ship MANELA at sullem voe in the shetlands.
good hunting brian,mack
military history,mainly ww1,manchester pals battalions,tyneside irish +tyneside scottish brigades,leeds,liverpool,accrington,birmingham,hull,barnsley,swansea and salford pals.

Offline Brian1

  • RootsChat Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 435
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 06 September 05 14:05 BST (UK) »
Hi Mack,
Thanks for your help. Have all details of the incident from W/Cdr Abrams 201 squadron. The Sunderlands number was W 3982 which was flying an anti submarine patrol taking off at midday on 21st August '41. A signal was received at 4.11 p.m. saying that they had sighted an enemy aircraft. Seven minutes later an SOS was sent. At 5 p.m. another Sunderland set off to search as did land based aircraft, but to no avail. The following day two naval vessels and another Sunderland joined the search and the only item found was a bag belonging to the previous member of the crew. The Sunderland was manned by 13 crew.

Thanks again for your help.
Brian
Arnold ( Lancs ). Gordon ( Lancs, Scotland ). Dowling. ( Ireland, England, Massachusetts, Australia, Buenos Aires ) Pugh ( Pew) ( Cheshire & Lancs). Cordial ( Ireland )

Offline manmack

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,225
    • View Profile
Re: Thomas James Gordon R.A.F. WW2
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 06 September 05 19:35 BST (UK) »
brian,she must have been drawn into a trap by the german plane,one enemy aircraft could not survive against a sunderland,thats why they were called the flying porcupine,they were heavily armed,mack
military history,mainly ww1,manchester pals battalions,tyneside irish +tyneside scottish brigades,leeds,liverpool,accrington,birmingham,hull,barnsley,swansea and salford pals.