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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: dukewm on Sunday 21 March 10 17:08 GMT (UK)
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Hello,
I am trying to clarify some discrepancies that may exist in my DOWNING Family Book and the issue centers on one (or more) Emanuel's.
Please lookup any information that may be available for :
Emanuel DOWNING - possible olde english spellings may be DOWNYNG, or DOWNEINGE
b. (or baptized) 10 DEC 1594
m. 10 APR 1622 - Lucy Winthrop, dau. of Adam Winthrop
d. 26 JUL 1676
Emanuel and Lucy may have had the following issue (among other possible names):
1. George b. 1623
2. Nicholas b. 1627
3. Henry b. 10 MAR 1630 - Henry is believed to have later lived in East Hatley, Cambridgeshire,
but may have been born in Gloucestershire
Any and all confirming or conflicting information on these DOWNINGs would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you and have a good day,
Rick T
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See also.......
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,445392.0.html
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Thanks for your reply.
I actually posted the other inquiry on the Suffolk County site because my Emanuel is believed to be from Suffolk but there seems to be another Emanuel (who may or may not have existed) that married the same Lucy Winthrop and was from Gloucestershire.
Also, not sure that Sherrington is a parish name, but may be a town or village.
If there is an Emanuel DOWNING from Sherrington born on or near the date given and married to a Lucy Winthrop, then I have quite a dilemma.
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Hello Rick,
This is in answer to your message number 6. Re Emanuel and his wife Lucy nee Winthrop and children.
'Emanuell's [sp on doc.] son of George Downing Bapt the 12th August 1585.' This took place at St. Lawrence Church, Ipswich.
Your dates and place for Emanuel and Lucy's wedding are correct. They then moved to Dublin where [Sir] George Downing was born in 1623.
Over the years there have been so many different lists of their children. From surviving letters written by Lucy Downing the following are known -
George the future Sir George
Joshua [nickname Jo] given a job in Customes in Glasgow, Scotland by George.
Robert [Robin] Went to sea.
Lucy Norton married William Norton stayed in America
Ann Bradstreet formely Gardiner " " "
Martha w/o Capt. James Peters. Lived in Westminster, London.
John - In a letter dated 12/2/1639 from John Endicott to Gov. John Winthrop.
"Your sister's son is named for you, John."
Massachusetts Historical Society Collection IV 1:189.
There is no Henry or Nicholas. If there was a Nicholas there would have to be a William as he is named in Nicholas's will as a brother. The Henry I have seen named as Adam Downings father but to date there is no proof this is so. These Downings are complicated!
Good luck Jill.
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Hello Rick,
Shenington is a town, not sure how big, about 10 miles from Banbury. Though physically in Oxfordshire was a detached portion of Gloucestershire untill 1844.
Don't worry there is not another Emanuel Downing from Shenington who married a Lucy Winthrop.
Jill.
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Rick,
Please forgive me for acting as a devil's advocate but I make the following observations.
Submitted entries in the IGI may be fairytales in part or all of their details.
There is no Emanuel D given as b. 10 Dec 1594 anywhere in the country according to the IGI. Without verifiable evidence, the details are not trustworthy.
There is a George D submitted birth/christening in 1632 with the location given as "Of Suffolk". If the submitter had found verifiable evidence of the parish's location it would have been given hence the entry is not trustworthy.
The location given against the Nicholas submitted baptism entry is "Drummond" (or Drummond Deery which sounds like a sort of camel - did the LDS submitter have a sense of humour? ;D) I can find no such British place and even the LDS library Place Search facility gives nothing.
Henry D's baptism is likewise an untrustworthy submitted entry in the IGI.
Further to the above, the LDS film of Sherrington parish church records is in their library catalogue and is given as being in WIL - not that that matters. The Sherrington BT's 1608 - 1880 being the earliest. Had there been earlier records in the WIL record office at Trowbridge, I have no doubt that they would have been filmed.
In conclusion, I recommend that you check the provenance of all your records and any which are submitted IGI entries or found in a another's tree, should be verified by checking reliable contemporaneous documentation such as PR's and BT's.
Regards
Chas
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Hello Chas,
Nicholas Downing was of Drummard, Maghera, Co. Londonderry. [Ref his will]
The name should have been Shenington which is off the A422 near Banbury in Oxfordshire, not Sherrington in Wiltshire.
Hope this helps Jill.
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Hello Chas,
In reply to your post earlier today, I have determined through the help from Accra (Jill) and others that there is indeed only ONE Emanuel Downing b. 1585 from Ipswich, Suffolk and further that he is NOT in my direct line.
I'm also aware that LDS/IGI submittals are unreliable beyond perhaps confirmation of dates due to the many duplicate and incorrect relationships posted.
George b. 1623 of Suffolk is also no longer of my immediate concern.
Henry is one of my "persons of interest" in my direct line (supposedly) and for whom I am seeking additional PROVEN info.
Accra (Jill) has already furnished some valuable data that is helping to mesh some of these puzzle pieces together. From her research, it has been determined that Henry was baptized 14 NOV 1640 at St. John's, Hackney, Middlesex.
I am looking for proof that (this) Henry married Jane Clotworthy 2 JAN 1665 and had the following children:
1. Adam b. 1666
2. John b. 1667
3. George b. 1668
4. Elizabeth b. 1669
5. Daniel b. 1670
6. Anne b. 1672 d. 1674
7. Margaret b. 1675
8. Anne b. 1678
9. Samuel b. ????
If this can be proven, one of my "gaps" will be successfully linked.
Thanks much for your input, all is welcome.
Rick
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Hello Chas,
Nicholas Downing was of Drummard, Maghera, Co. Londonderry. [Ref his will]
The name should have been Shenington which is off the A422 near Banbury in Oxfordshire, not Sherrington in Wiltshire.
Hope this helps Jill.
Thanks Jill, your input has been great.
I have located Shenington on Google Maps (it's apparently too small to appear on my UK Road Atlas).
I'll post an update on how these Downings are meshed together as soon as I get some verified proof on Henry, who I believe to be the son of Calybut(e) (Jr) and father of Adam.
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Hello each,
Well, if the query had had the correct info to start with . . . .
And as I said, I was acting as a devil's advocate which really concentrated the minds it seems :D
Chas
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Hello Rick,
This is in reply to your email 8 to me.
You are correct Henry bapt. 1640, 'St. John at Hackney' is the son of Calybute Downing. [There are many different spellings for Calybute and when I quote from an original document I use the spelling on the document.]. The question is, is Henry the father of Adam Downing b,1666 d. 1719?
Calybute's 4 daughters and son Henry were under 21 when he died. We know they were under 21 because of the wording of their grandfathers will. Their grandfather was Calibutt Downing of Shenington in the County of Gloucester, his will is dated 31 Oct. 1644 and proved 15 Dec. 1644. [PROB 11/192] He used 2 different spellings in the will for his name - Calibutt/Calybutt .
Their father Calybute was already dead because his father wrote - "... my late son Dr Calybute Downing deceased..."
Jill.
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Thanks Jill!
It seems like every time you submit more details on these DOWNINGs, another piece of the puzzle fits together or confirms what I already had.
Are any of these DOWNINGs in your direct line ?
If so, you may have more verification I'm seeking and I may have something to add.
Meanwhile, I'll focus now on Henry, bap. 1640 at St. John's Hackney, whom I believe is the same Henry, father of Capt/Col Adam.
Will search the PR's of Henry's marriage to Jane Clotworthy on or abt. 2 JAN 1665 but as yet, I don't know where they may have married.
thanks again and please "stay tuned"
Rick
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Hello Rick,
This is in reply to your email number 7 to Chas.
I'm interested in the list of Adam Downing's siblings and their birth dates plus 1 death date. Where did you find them?
Facts we know - From Adam Downing's will dated 4th Jan 1716 his mother was named Jane and 2 brother named George and Samuel.
Facts we know - From Nicholas Downing's will dated 18th Feb. 1698 [ Nicholas being the uncle of Adam and siblings ] Adam had brothers named John and George, Nicholas names them as Adam's brothers.
Samuel Downing is a nephew in Nicholas's will, and Adam's will names a brother Samuel.
That leaves 3 other Downing nephews named in Nicholas's will -
Daniel
Abraham
Bernard
Apart from leaving Adam the bulk [with wife Mary] of his estate - to go on to nephews John, and then George if their brother Adam had no children - the only other nephew who was left more than money was Daniel Downing and I quote -
"I leave and bequeath unto my nephew Daniel Downing all my tentant right &
profits in and to the townlands of Moyagall he paying the yearly rent payable
to the Lord Viscount Masserene for the same."
This is just a thought - Because Daniel received more than other nephews, apart from Adam, I wonder if it means he was an eldest son of another of Nicholas's brother and not from the father of Adam and siblings, so therefore a cousin to Adam and siblings. I have no idea.
I have never found any female siblings for Adam I would love to know where you found their names and dates. Jill.
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Hello Rick,
Sorry I forgot. Yes Adam is my line, his son John and John's son Dawson, [here we part company] and Dawson's son John. Jill.
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Hello Jill,
Yes, I have pieced in the names as you have mentioned from the wills of Nicholas and Adam, some of which matched my previous "collection" and some which added to it.
As to the nephews mentioned in Nicholas' will, my source already had Daniel as a brother of Adam and unless proven otherwise, I'll leave him as such.
I offer the explanation that he was treated separately (from how John and George were mentioned) due to his tenancy rights with the Vintner's Proportion (as you've indicated).
On the siblings of Adam:
I am in possession of a limited edition (50 copies) book titled "Genealogy of the Downing Family", by William Colwell Downing and R. Wilberforce, Dando Printing and Publishing Co., 1901.
William b. 1860 was a brother of my great-grandfather and Mr. Wilberforce attended Edinburgh Univ. and was a member of the Historical and Genealogical Society of Pennsylvania.
This publication has been proven to contain several inaccuracies, however, much of it is correct.
This source lists Henry b. 10 MAR 1630, d. 25 SEP 1698, m. 2 JAN 1665 to Jane Clotworthy and having issue:
1. Adam b. 18 MAR 1666 (our guy)
2. John b. 1667, d. 1736
3. George b. 1668, m. 1690, d. 1729
4. Elizabeth b. 1669, m. 1692, d. 1740
5. Daniel b. 1670, m. 1696, d. 1733
6. Anne b. 1672, d. 1674
7. Margaret b. 1675, m. 1696, d. 1723
8. Anne b. 1678, m. 1702, d. 1757
Since the Will of Nicholas mentions nephews Adam, John, George and Daniel AND Daniel is listed as another son of Henry as above, I'm leaving it as such for now.
The focus from here (at least for me) is HENRY.
My book has him b. 1630 and at some point having been from "East Hatley", Cambridgeshire.
The HENRY, son of Calybut(e), bap. 14 NOV 1640 at St. John's, Hackney, London presents a problem with dates and perhaps location.
My book also gives the father of Henry as Emanuel, son of Calybut (Sr).
Emanuel has since been eliminated from this line as we have previously found out, the only verified Emanuel from that era being from Suffolk (bap. 1585) and unrelated.
At this point I am only piecing together clues and considering it possible that Adam's father was indeed named "Henry" (we know his mother was Jane), and his father Henry may have been the son of Calybut(e) (Jr).
All the time lines are close enough to consider and the names are at LEAST coincidentally alike.
On your line from Dawson (Sr), son of John, grandson of Adam:
Do you have any siblings of Dawson documented ?
I have Dawson b. 17 MAR 1739 m. 3 APR 1762 to Catherine Fullerton, d. 23 DEC 1808
All I have is one son of Dawson (Sr) named George Alexander b. 30 NOV 1775
I also ran across a Dawson Downing listed as living in western PA (I think Pittsburgh) on a census return that caught my eye (perhaps 1840 or 1850, can't remember).
Any link "closer to home" there ?
enjoy (what remains of) your Easter weekend,
Rick
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Hello Rick,
This is in reply to your email number 14 dated Sun. 4th April.
My family tree, started in the late 1800's by my great-grandfather, also has Daniel as one of Adam's brothers, but no more information on him so until I have found documented sourced proof he is Adam's brother he will have to stay on the sideline.
Certainly one of the inaccuracies in your Downing book was made centuries before your great-great uncle gathered information for his book and it was possibly the most misleading one for Downing researches. It was written by Anthony Wood b.1632 d.1695 of Oxford, also known as Anthony `a Wood. He wrote that Emanuel Downing was the son of Calybute Downing[snr] and through the generations his mistake gathered momentum and was written in many books and papers!
My search is also for the same man - the father of Adam Downing but I don't yet know if he is named Henry.
I don't think Henry, bapt. 1640, the son of Calybute Downing junior is the father of Adam Downing, I say this because of Nicholas Downing's will - 1698.
Nicholas named a brother as William in his will and Calybute Downing senior only named one grandson in his will - Henry. There is no mention of a Nicholas or a William.
The Henry, b.1630, in your book may possibly have been from East Hatley, Cambridgeshire but it would not have been until after Jan. 1661 which was the date Sir George Downing bought the estate ['The Godfather of Downing Street' by John Beresford - p.125 Ref 2. Feet of Fines of the county in the P.R.O.]
I find in interesting that your g-g-uncle and my g-grandfather came up with the same first name and surname for the mother of Adam Downing and the first name we know is correct because of Adam's will.
For his fathers name my g-grandfather hedged his bets and he named a Henry Downing, birth 1630 death 1698, as being a Major in the 1st Foot Guards, and/or a John Downing birth 1640 who also served in the 1st Foot Guards and listed his rank from Ensign to Major.
The 1st Foot Guards are now the Grenadier Guards and their 'Nominal Roll of Officers of Royal Regiment of Guards, raised in England, 1660 by Colonel John Russell' has no Henry Downing listed. They have 2 Johns and one has the same 'history' as the John on the tree, but that doesn't prove he is the father of Adam.
The Dawson Downings siblings I have are -
Alexander Clotworthy Downing b.1727 d.1812.[Date on Downing vault]
Rowe b.? died of fever
John b.? d.? Capt Royal Artillery [I have a Rosegift deed dated 10th Oct. 1788.
signed by brothers John and Dawson].
Margaret b.? d.1775 [Date on Downing vault] Married Capt. James Hand.
Sarah b.? d.? Married Charles Dawson. Their son married Medici eldest dau.
of Alexander Clotworthy Downing.
My date from the Downing vault for the internment of Dawson Downing is the 4th July 1807. His birth year is the same as yours, I don't have a marriage date for his 1st wedding which was to Catherine Fullerton. They had 2 sons the 1st was George Alexander and the 2nd David Fullerton and when they changed their surname to Fullerton David became David Fullerton Fulerton.
Dawson's second wife Anne Boyd was the 1/2 sister of his first wife.
I have not heard of a Dawson Downing of PA. There may be links to our Downings but I don't know.
Jill.
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I have come to this rather late in the day but am assisting Peter Fullerton of the Irish Downing family. There were two Henry Downing's. This Henry was the son of Rev. Emmanuel Downing and Lucy Winthrop. He was born on 10 March 1630. Some records say that this was in Salem Massachusetts, but this is unlikely as his father Emmanuel did not go there until 1638, returning to London in 1652. His closest siblings, Nicholas Downing was born in London in 1629 and Ann was bp in St Brides Fleet Street, so it is likely that Henry was also born there, but probably travelled to Massachusetts temporarily with his parents. There can be little doubt that it was this Henry, who married Jane Clotwothy as it was his unmarried brother, Nicholas who left money to their children (including Adam Downing) in 1698. There is also a record that Adam lived in Downing Street, built by his uncle Sir George Downing.
There was a second Henry Downing, the son of The Rev. Calybute Downing and Margaret Brett. He was baptised at St. John Hackney on 14 Nov 1640. His father was the Rector of St John, from 1636 to 1644. There is a record that this Henry changed his surname to Brett, presumably to inherit from a relation of his mother's. I have found no record that he married.
I share the general difficulty in trying to establish the antecedents of Jane Clotworthy. While the location of the marriage has not been found, the date on 2 Jun 1665 looks about right as her eldest son Adam was b. 16 March 1666. There is a portrait of 'Jane Downing' at Downing College Cambridge. This has been lent by the Fullerton family. I am in little doubt that this is Jane nee Clotworthy and she became the matriarch of the Irish Downing/Fullerton family. The portrait says that she was born in c. 1640. It has often been assumed that she was a daughter of Sir John Clotworthy, 1st Viscount Massereene, b. c. 1595. This is biologically possible. The 1st Viscount returned from Ireland to London in c. 1640, where he became a member of parliament and was closely involved in the impeachment of Thomas Wentworth, Earl of Strafford. He certainly had a daughter, Mary, who married Sir John Skeffington, later 2nd Viscount Massereene, in 1654. This suggests that Mary was born in c. 1634. There is no record that I have seen of the 1st Viscount having another daughter. He was also strongly puritan and dressed to match in his portraits. Jane, who was probably painted at the time of her wedding (coincidently the time of the 1st Viscount's death), wore bright blue silks and a rather decolte cut for her portrait. This suggests that she was not particularly puritan in her outlook, although this was after the restoration. I err on the side of those, who doubt that she was the 1st Viscount's daughter. I also have no evidence that she visited Ireland. As the Irish Downings were always keen to demonstrate their elevated status, I rather suspect that they would have been keen to let it be known if she was Massereene's daughter. They only knew that she was 'Jane'!
I have done quite a lot of research on Ireland, having written 'Men of Substance' which is a history of the London Livery Companies in Ireland.
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Hello again Robert,
I am dying to find out as much as possible on the Jane Downing portrait at Cambridge.
The connection I find very interesting, is that it was lent by the Fullerton family.
The Fullerton's of northern Ireland were definitely woven into the Downing branch by virtue of the marriage of Dawson Downing, grandson of Adam, b. 1739, to his first wife, Katherine Fullerton on 3 Apr 1762.
Whether or not this was the "Jane Clotworthy" I am trying to prove remains to be seen, but your reference is very intriguing.
We are not even certain that Adam's mother was a Clotworthy. All that is known for sure, is that she was named "Jane" because he mentions her in his Will, dated 4 Jul 1716. It is presumed (but not certain) that Adam's father predeceased his mother and that his name was "Henry" as suggested by the book, "Genealogy of the Downing Family and Immediate Collateral Relations" by William Colwell Downing and R. Wilberforce, © 1901. William Colwell Downing was my great great uncle.
Another interesting fact, is that Col. Adam Downing (a Captain during the Siege of Londonderry), rode under the command of Col. Clotworthy Skeffington, 3rd Viscount Massareene, an association that may, or may not, have been arranged due to his father's marriage to Jane Clotworthy.
However, my research indicates that Sir John Clotworthy, 1st Viscount Massareene, had only ONE daughter, Mary, who married Sir John Skeffington, as you mention.
The first arrival I have found in northern Ireland of the Clotworthy's was (Sir) Hugh and his brother Lewis, who emigrated from Devonshire in 1573 with the 1st Earl of Essex under the Ulster Expedition. This is speculation and you have to believe the birth years for Hugh and Lewis given by ancestry.com (1563 - twins ?) for it to be true, but when they got there isn't important to this discussion. They were followed by an older brother, Simon, probably sometime after he married in 1582/3. Sir Hugh, knighted by King James I, was the father of the aforementioned Sir John and Lt. Col. James. James was seated at Muckmaire, County Antrim and Monnimore, County Derry.
Little else is known on James, Lewis, and Simon in my notes, so it would be of great interest to find out if Jane may have descended from one of those male Clotworthys.
As for Sir George, 1st Baronet; he was the son of Emanuel Downing and Lucy Winthrop and did indeed go to Massachusetts in 1638. However, as evidenced by family letters of Lucy (nee Winthrop) Downing, Sir George had no brothers named Henry or Nicholas.
Rev. Calybute Downing, Rector at St John Hackney, likely baptized all his own children and they are well documented. He had only TWO known sons, Calybute, who died age 6, and Henry, bp. 14 Nov 1640, as you state. The additional info you give on Henry is of interest but we have discounted him as being Adam's father because there is no Nicholas.
We know Adam had an Uncle Nicholas because he is mentioned as Co- Executor, in the Will of Nicholas Downing of Drummard, County Derry, dated 18 Feb 1698 and "Drummard" is just up the hill (perhaps adjacent) to "Rocktown", which Adam described as his homestead.
In other words, there can be no link between Sir George and Adam Downing, unless it can be tied into an earlier generation.
The bottom line and moral of the story is that we need to talk.
I'll sign off using my favorite quote from an old Firesign Theater bit,
"Forward Into the Past"
Rick Turner
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One other notable fact:
The Will of Nicholas Downing, dated 18 Feb 1698, also mentions a brother "William".
The way it is worded indicates "William" was NOT Adam's father.
So, what we must find is the origins of brothers Nicholas and William Downing along with a third brother, perhaps but not necessarily, named "Henry".
I found a Nicholas (with years of birth and death matching exactly) and Henry (with years that are close) from Bradfield, Yorkshire, but no "William".
The Nicholas and Henry of Bradfield were both baptized and died there and were sons of "John".
There was however, a William, son of John, bap. 1628 (a year after Nicholas) at Sedgley, Staffordshire. Sedgley is about 65 miles southwest of Bradfield.
This is the closest group I have found.
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Rick,
An assessment of Downing Family trees
You are right that I am an author and I have most recently written a history of the London Livery Companies in Ireland. I am thus quite familiar with the Williamite Wars. I was approached by Peter Fullerton of the Irish Downing/Fullerton families, who happens to be a connection by marriage. He sent me his assessment of a memoir of the family prepared by Alexander Fullerton in in 1893. The memoir as it turns out is a highly fanciful document providing some unrealistic family trees.
You may not be aware that there was an earlier Downing family in Ireland. Lt. (later Major) John Downing b. c. 1581 served under Sir Francis Berkeley at the siege of Dunboyne Castle in 1602. In a recent history, Regions and Rulers of Ireland 1600-1650, he is described as ‘a native of Suffolk and one of the ruthless commanders who oversaw mass execution at Dursey Island near Cork,’ after the battle of Kinsale in 1601. He later was posted to Ulster, where he married Margaret and had a son George. George became a landlord of 3,000 acres on the Fishmongers’ proportion, living at what is now New Walworth House at Ballykelly, then the Fishmongers’ castle and bawn. Although there is no record of George’s marriage, he had a son George who became Comptroller of Customs for the Irish Society and married Jane daughter of Hugh Montgomery of Ballygowan.
It had long been assumed by the Irish family that Colonel Adam Downing was the son of George Downing and Jane Montgomery. It was also assumed that the portrait of Jane Downing, lent to Downing College Cambridge by the Fullertons, was of Jane Montgomery. There was a complication in this theory that the Irish family were aware that there was also a Jane Clotworthy somewhere in the family, particularly as Adam had a grandson, Clotworthy Downing, and they assumed that she was connected to Sir John Clotworthy, 1st Viscount Massereene. Yet there is no mention of her in Clotworthy of Massereene family trees. Sir John was b. in 1595, and his only known child Mary m. Sir John Skeffington, who became the 2nd Viscount Massereene in right of his wife. The Downing family even wondered if Jane Clotworthy were the missing wife of George, the Fishmongers’ tenant. Yet they had no evidence for this.
When I came on the scene, I looked at the family tree of WC Downing and R Wilberforce prepared in 1903 and read that Adam Downing had arrived in Ireland from London with his own regiment in about1689 fighting with distinction in support of the Williamites at the siege of Londonderry and the Battle of the Boyne. As a result he was granted a large area of land near Bellaghy. The Downing/ Wilberforce family tree also claimed that Adam was the son of Henry Downing and Jane Clotworthy, no less, and that Henry (and his brothers Nicholas and William) were the sons of Emmanuel Downing and Lucy Winthrop. If this is correct, it makes Adam a nephew of Sir George Downing, who made his name fighting for Cromwell, and would have had deep enough pockets to fund a regiment for Adam. I was now in little doubt that the Irish family were wrong in their assumption that Adam was in some way descended from George and Jane Montgomery (and there is no evidence for this Jane having children), and that the portrait of Jane b. c. 1640 was likely to be of Jane Clotworthy. As Jane Clotworthy and Henry Downing lived in London, and there is no evidence that they visited Ireland, it became less likely that she was the daughter of Massereene. Yet Masserene was in London in c. 1641 and became a member of Parliament, closely associated with the impeachment of Thomas Wentworth, Earl of Strafford. (As an aside, if Jane Clotworthy were a Massereene connection, you might think that Adam would have mentioned it at the Mausoleum at Bellaghy. He mentions his Devonshire connection (when we know that the Downings came from Norfolk and Suffolk) and this can only refer to the Clotworthy family. As he mentions his wife’s family, the Jacksons, and their significance in Ireland, you might assume that he would mention the Clotworthy family, given their important role in the development of Ulster, if he were Massereene’s grandson.
I have had to cut this message in half as it is too long for Rootsweb.
I will send a second message with the rest.
Robert
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This is the second part of my earlier message.
Enough on Jane Clotworthy.
You are skeptical of the view that Henry, Nicholas and William Downing were the sons of Emmanuel Downing and Lucy Winthrop, notwithstanding their inclusion in the family tree of Downing and Wilberforce. These three are not included in the visitation family tree in the Suffolk manorial records. Yet this tree has been pieced together from the known wills and letters that the Heralds had available to them, and Lucy Winthrop’s letters do not mention Henry, Nicholas and William. Lucy Winthrop was a fecund lady well capable of popping out a child every year or so. I have gone through all the family records that I can find (proven or unproven) and I have found the following offspring for her:
Sir George b. 1623 St Michael Cornhill V
Lucy b. 13 3 1625 Ipswich Suffolk V
Joshua b. 1627 V
Nicholas b. 1629 London
Robert b. 24 3 1629 London V
Henry b. 10 3 1630
Adam d. 1631 V
Ann bp 12 4 1633 St Bride’s Fleet, St V
Martha b. 1636 V
John b. 1 3 1640 Salem Massachusetts V
Dorcas b. Abt. 1641 V
I have not found a birth record for William (only mentioned in Nicholas’s will), but there are gaps in the list able to fit him in, and Robert and Nicholas could be twins. I have also read in one family tree that there were twelve children (although it only named some of them). I mark with a V those mentioned in the Visitation family tree. It is perfectly reasonable for Lucy to have had a few more and the dates fit. It is also worth noting that there was an Adam (not a particularly usual name), and Henry, might have named his eldest son after a favorite brother. Given that Lucy was also responsible for 6 step children and that they were spread between Massachusetts and England, keeping tabs on them all would not have been straightforward!
I accept that I am dealing in probabilities and you like facts, but it is not unreasonable conjecture and no one has provided a plausible alternative.
I would now like to turn to Emmanuel’s father. Stirnet 1 has followed Burke’s Extinct Baronetage in making Emmanuel the son of Calybute Downing and hence a descendant of Jeffrey / Geoffrey Downing and Elizabeth Wingfield. We know from the visitation family tree, confirmed by the wills, that Emmanuel was the son of George, the Ipswich Schoolmaster. The Visitation makes the Schoolmaster’s wife Miss Bellamy. In other family trees on line, particularly on Geni, she is shown as Dorcas Blois but with an identical death date of 21 12 1610 to Miss Bellamy. There are various family trees of the Blois family at Grundisburgh (generally misspelt Gundisberg in the Downing trees) near Ipswich in Suffolk. There is a later Baronetcy. On some of them they mention Dorcas as the wife of George the Schoolmaster. I am not very convinced about any of them but she seems to be the daughter of William Blois and Frances Tye, and was b. 1560 in Ipswich and d. 21 12 1610 at Kesgrave, Ipswich. She is reputed to have married the schoolmaster in 1576 at Ipswich.
At this point, if we accept the Visitation family tree, based as it is on the wills of George Sr. who d. in 1556 and the Schoolmaster who d. on 8 10 1610 at Beccles, Suffolk,( it is difficult to refute them) then Emmanuel is not descended from Geoffrey/Jeffrey Downing and Elizabeth Wingfield. This presents a problem. Alexander Fullerton in his Memoir produced a magnificent coat of arms for himself quartering him to the Wingfield family, who descend from the FitzAlans, Edward I etc. It is probable that he thought he was! Yet if he is not a descendant of the earlier Downing family in Ireland who seem to descend from Arthur the indisputed son of Elizabeth Wingfield or from Calybut Downing as shown in Burke’s extinct baronetcy, and George the Schoolmaster is not the son of Elizabeth Wingfield as often assumed, then Elizabeth is not his ancestor! The question is, was this Coat of Arms registered with the College of Heralds and did they approve it. If so, we may have got it all wrong and we would need the College of Heralds to explain, which would cost money. If not as seem more likely given all the uncertainties along the way, then he was a bit of a poser!
One further find. Geoffrey is often described as of Poles Beecham. This was St. Pauls Belchamp.
I welcome your comments, but will be away for ten days from Monday evening.
Robert
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I am away for 10 days from this evening and no one has responded to my messages above, perhaps because you have all long since rejected my views. i have re-read a lot of the evidence and one has to accept that there is much in the Downing/Wilberforce memoir that is of very doubtful veracity. I am slightly put out that Nicholas Downing was living at Drumard (not Drummond), a townland near Maghera, Co. Londonderry at the time of his death in 1698, and he is buried apparently at Church Island (no longer an island) at Lough Beg. This is very close to Bellaghy. He was not buried in the Mausoleum at St Tida's, Bellaghy, presumably because it was not built until 1719, but it is surprising that the Mausoleum makes no mention of earlier Downing ancestry in Ireland, if Nicholas (and his wife Mary) had been living there for a long time (or were a member of an Irish Downing family). I think that I have searched about all i can do on line. The position that we are in is extraordinarily unsatisfactory. I feel that we need someone to do some research at PRONI. I will try to put this in train on my return.
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Hi Robert,
Thank you so much for your detailed messages.
Sorry, I was working on some pressing issues the last few days and am just now getting back to this. You have provided some excellent insight that I will digest and respond to but it will probably take me some time.
I was aware of a George Downing who was of Londonderry City, as I recall, in about 1620, but had no follow up info on him, so he was always in the back of my mind as a potential link to Adam.
As for facts and speculation, I'm afraid I am somewhere between the two.
Just so you know, I am deeply into the process of writing the sequel to our "Downing Book", the © 1901 WC Downing "masterpiece", which we know contains some inaccuracies.
Until I can "prove" my two "broken links", some of my sequel remains speculation whereby I propose several plausible theories. So I am facing the dilemma of publishing a genealogical volume that may be largely "fact" but currently relies on fiction.
I am also aware of the Norfolk and Suffolk Downings, which may or may not, relate to MY branch, and of course, Geoffrey and Calybute (the elder) married into royal descent. We have three descendants of the Irish Downings working on all of this, and all of us agree that Mr. "R. Wilberforce" may have been something of a charlatan "genealogist" who gave WC Downing a set of highly questionable data that would have been hard for WC to dispute at the time, all in the effort to portray my closer ancestors as royal descendants, and perhaps a nice "tip", or bonus.
Anyway, I'll put together some more and send you an email so we can communicate further.
I hope you don't mind, but I think it wise to forward your recent messages to my family researchers for additional input. I'll keep your email to myself.
I am most grateful to have "met" you and look forward to sharing what we know.
Forward Into the Past.
Rick Turner
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Dear members of this group,
I was delighted to read your contributions about the Downing family of Northern Ireland. I have to admit that it is quite a puzzle! Col. Adam Downing is my 6th great-grandfather and I come from the Australian branch of the family on my mother's side.
Please also see a story I wrote under my pseudonym Jack Hammersley here:
https://jack-hammersley.com/2009/07/12/colonel-adam-downing-and-the-siege-of-londonderry-1689/
Kind regards,
Tim Mansfield
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This message has been posted on behalf of Robert who sent the message to me in error.
Regards
Sarah
I have read your write up with great interest. You might like to look at my recent book, Men of Substance (see Amazon) which is a history of the London Livery companies in Ulster. This has a full chapter on the siege of Londonderry. A lot of the people mentioned in your list of names are mentioned in my book, but not Adam Downing. Peter Fullerton als has a write up about Adam in Ireland and I will send this on my return from holiday
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While in The Gambia, I worried about another issue. The poem written after the siege of Londonderry, says:
On angry foes proud frowning
From Dawson's Bridge his fair abode
Came gallant Adam Downing.
Assuming that this is genuine verse, it implies that Adam was living at Dawson's Bridge before the siege. Yet I have assumed that he was granted land as a result of his heroics at the siege and at the Battle of the Boyne.
James II provided a list of those who should be considered guilty of treason during the siege of Londonderry. This includes 'Captain Adam Downing of Bellaghy'. This again implies that he held land at Bellaghy before the siege.
It would also seem that Nicholas Downing was buried at the Island Church at Lough Beg. This suggests that he was living in Ireland at the time of his death and left his Irish estates to Adam. Perhaps he had lived there all his life.
None of this seems to coincide with Colonel Adam Downing raising a regiment and arriving from England.
I have looked up the Dawson's Bridge web site, and there is no mention of the Downings there before the acquisition of Rowe's Gift. It would seem that the Dawsons acquired the township from the Phillipses and continued to hold it thereafter. Why was Adam's grandson 'Dawson Downing'. Was he a Dawson godson, or did he have a maternal Dawson forebear?
All tantalisingly confusing. Do we know where Nicholas Downing was at the time of writing his will?
I am trying to arrange some research at PRONI.
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Hi Robert,
I have been busy on another project but literally can't wait to delve into your insights and the content of your recent messages.
Considering the amount of content and the comments that could potentially follow, I decided to tackle things in small increments.
(today's message is in TWO parts)
Let me reference the 2nd paragraph of your message dated 25 Feb 2017, Part 1 of 2, as it contains something that "jumped off the page" to me.
Your quote:
"You may not be aware that there was an earlier Downing family in Ireland. Lt. (later Major) John Downing b. c. 1581 served under Sir Francis Berkeley
at the siege of Dunboyne Castle in 1602. In a recent history, Regions and Rulers of Ireland 1600-1650, he is described as ‘a native of Suffolk
and one of the ruthless commanders who oversaw mass execution at Dursey Island near Cork,’ after the battle of Kinsale in 1601.
He later was posted to Ulster, where he married Margaret and had a son George. George became a landlord of 3,000 acres on the Fishmongers’ proportion,
living at what is now New Walworth House at Ballykelly, then the Fishmongers’ castle and bawn. Although there is no record of George’s marriage,
he had a son George who became Comptroller of Customs for the Irish Society and married Jane daughter of Hugh Montgomery of Ballygowan."
What struck me was 1. "John b. c. 1581" ; 2. he being "of Suffolk" ; and 3. 'Jane' being the name of Adam's mother.
Although there were plenty of 'John' Downings roaming around in the era of interest, we need to follow any leads that develop.
One avenue of investigation is to determine whether Maj. John Downing, b. abt. 1581, could have been the son of Arthur Downing of Lexham.
Arthur Downinge, son of Jefferry Downinge, bap. 10 May 1543 at Belchamp St Paul, Essex (Essex Parish Regesters)
The 1901 Downing book claims that Geoffrey (Jefferry) of Pynest, Poles Belcham (present day Belchamp St Paul), County Essex , was “the first of whom detailed information can be obtained”.
Lexham, Norfolk is located about 47 miles north, and slightly east, of Belchamp St Paul.
From The Visitations of Norfolk 1563, 1589, and 1613 ; page 113, we know that Arthur Downing, son of Geoffrey, had a son John,
followed by Calibutt (Calybutt Sr, or the elder), Dorothy, Anne, and Susan.
If the order shown was the actual birth order, John would have been the presumed heir.
The 1901 Downing book shows Calybut as the first born in 1574, followed by John (1581), Dorothy (1584), Anne (1586), and Susan (1589)
We also know that Arthur Downing was "of Lexham, County Norfolk", and that he married
Susan Calybutt, daughter of John (not Thomas) Calybutt of Castle Acre, Norfolk.
From the Clare, Suffolk Parish Register FL 501/4/1, we can see they were married 22 Nov 1570, rebuking the 1901 Downing book claim of a 1573 marriage.
The 1570 marriage also leaves plenty of time for John to have been born before Calybut.
Clare, Suffolk is only about 3 miles northeast of Belchamp St Paul, Essex.
Clearly, Arthur and Susan married near his father and at some point migrated north to Lexham.
It is reasonable to believe that their son, John, may have been "of Suffolk", which lies between Essex and Norfolk.
Let's bring Rattlesden into the picture. Rattlesden, Suffolk is just 16 miles northeast of Belchamp St Paul and about 35 miles south of Lexham.
from familysearch.org: (all have documented folios)
1. John Downinge, son of John Downinge, bap. 27 Dec 1610 at Rattlesden, Suffolk - mother: Hester
John, the father, could have been born about 1581, but almost 100% certainly NOT 'Maj. John', who was in Ireland by 1601.
However, he can not be discounted as Arthur's son, and he could have been born as early as 1571 (considering the 1570 marriage).
Some accounts have John, son of Arthur, having been born about 1581 and died 1617. These dates are undocumented and may be unreliable.
2. Hester Downing, dau. of John Downing, bap. 5 Mar 1637 at Rattlesden, Suffolk - named after her paternal grandmother
3. John Downing, son of John Downing, bap. 27 Dec 1638 at Rattlesden, Suffolk
great grandson of Arthur and father of Adam ?
Line (speculated): Arthur, b. 1543 > John, b. 1571/81(?) > John, b. 1610 > John, b. 1638 > Adam, b. 1666
NOTE: this John had a brother named William but how would Nicholas fit in ?
We know from the Will of Nicholas Downing, dated 18 Feb 1698, that Adam was Nicholas' nephew and that he had an uncle William.
4. William Downing, son of John Downing, bap. 31 Jan 1641 at Rattlesden, Suffolk
5. John Downing, son of John Downing, bap. 11 Mar 1669 at Rattlesden, Suffolk
Adam did have a brother John, but also had brothers George, Samuel, and perhaps Daniel. None of them have surfaced via online research.
continued
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Part 2
Additionally, here is a list of recorded baptisms I found for Arthur Downing: (all have documented folios)
from familysearch.org – I did a search for any forename (blank) , children of “Arthur” , surname “Downing” , born between 1570-1590 and got the following results :
1. John Downinge, son of Arthur Downinge, bap. 1 Jan 1578 at Saint Bartholomew, Chichester, Sussex
2. Grissell Downing, dau. of Arthure Downing, bap. 12 Jun 1580 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
3. Margaret Downinge, dau. of Arthur Downinge, bap. 10 Jun 1581 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
4. Edmund Downinge, son of Arthure Downinge, bap. 13 Jun 1581 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
5. George Downeinge, son of Arthure Downeinge, bap. 3 May 1584 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
6. Arthure Downinge, son of Arthure Downinge, bap. 20 Apr 1585 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
7. Robert Downeinge, son of Arthure Downeinge, bap. 29 May 1586 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
8. Wingfilde Downeynge, son of Arthure Downeynge, bap. 17 Apr 1587 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
9. Francis Downinge, dau. of Arthure Downinge, bap. 3 Nov 1588 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
10. Ellen Downeinge, dau. of Arthure Downeinge, bap. 2 Nov 1589 at Weasenham All Saints, Norfolk
Lexham is only a little over two miles east of Castle Acre and two miles south of Weasenham.
The notable exception to the above list is John, the eldest, baptized in Sussex in 1578.
Was John the son of the same Arthur, or were these two different families ?
Perhaps Arthur (and Susan) were away from home on military campaign or for some other reason.
Could this 'John', baptized in Sussex, have followed his family to Suffolk at some point, then found himself in Ireland by 1601 ?
On the surface, it appears that Arthur (Arthure) Downing (Downinge, Downeinge, Downeynge), who had 9 children baptized at Weasenham, would have been Arthur of Lexham.
However, we have yet to find any documented baptisms near Lexham, for Arthur's children (John, Calibutt, Dorothy, Anne, and Susan) as given by The Visitations of Norfolk.
Could there have been two Arthur Downings who frequented locations only 2 miles apart in the same time frame ?
In any case, I wanted to bring to light a few 'John' Downings as potential members of our Downing branch.
Maybe one of these 'Johns' migrated to Ireland by 1601 and could have been the great grandfather of Adam ?
I was aware of a George Downinge (Householder) listed on the Rent Roll for Londonderry, taken 15th May 1628.
from: Ellis MS 42. Published in facsimile with introduction by R. G. S. King, then dean of Derry, as "A particular of the howses and famylyes in London Derry, May 15, 1628"
http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-Rent_Roll_of_Derry.html
Could he be the son of Maj. John and in his early twenties in 1628 ?
I see there is a village 'Ballykelly' on the A2 just east of Londonderry which has an intersection with Walworth Road leading north off Main Street (A2),
so I'm sure that is the place you mention and it is close enough to the city to weigh on the probability that George the younger, could have migrated to Londonderry
from his father's homestead.
As for the timeline, if we assume an average generational split of 25 years and John was b. abt. 1581, we could estimate George the elder was b. abt. 1606, and
George the younger abt. 1631, give or take a few years. Assuming Adam's birth year of 1666 is correct (he is described as having died in his "53rd year" on the Downing vault in Bellaghy),
George the younger would have been about 35 years old at Adam's birth. Adam's youngest sister wasn't born until 1678 (according to the 1901 Downing book),
so that might suggest George the younger was born a little later.
If we speculate that George the younger was Adam's father, and he did marry Jane Montgomery:
• it is likely one of Adam's grandsons was named in honor of Col. Clotworthy Skeffington, under whom Adam served during the Siege of Derry and/or The Battle of the Boyne.
• We must also note that Adam had younger brothers named John and George, and he named two of his own sons John and George, but there were no descendants named 'Hugh' (that we know of).
All comments are welcome and any additional information could be a major breakthrough.
Even a seemingly insignificant detail might be the key that unlocks a huge mystery.
Forward Into the Past,
Rick Turner
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Hi Robert.
I am absolutely fascinated by your comments and those of Rick Turner! This is a lot of new information to absorb from these new possibilities. It does strike me (referring to one of your previous posts which make makes a lot of sense) that it seems strange that Adam Downing appeared out of the blue from Dawson's Bridge in the 'nick of time' at the siege from outside to the main gate!
As a young officer he would have restricted from coming or going, and would certainly been killed by James' army if he had done so. Perhaps the poem was made up at a later time? I have idea of the origin of it or the full version.
Rick, Penny and Tia are already members (as well as several of my siblings and Downing cousins) but so far I have not been able to invite Peter Fullerton. If you are in touch with him please could you forward this message to him?
Kind regards,
Tim Mansfield
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Just to add to the debate about Adam Downing and his uncle Nicholas, i have done a bit of research on the location of land around Bellaghy. This may be of interest.
There is no doubt that Bellaghy, Drumard and Rocktown were on the Vintners' proportion. Drumard and Rocktown (in the Irish Baile-na-carraig or perhaps Ballymacragg) are adjacent townlands to the west of Bellaghy. The head tenant ('Farmer') of the Vintners was Sir John Skeffington, 2nd Viscount Massereene, so Nicholas and Adam will have been or have become his under tenants. It is apparent that Adam served under Sir John's son, Clotworthy Skeffington in the Williamite wars, so he could have been offered a tenancy either before of after 1689.
In 1695, on the death of Sir John, Clotworthy Skeffington, became 3rd Viscount Massereene and took over as the Vintners' Farmer. He fell into arrears of rent causing much litigation with the Vintners. The Vintners' Agent, William Conolly, later Speaker of the Irish House of Commons, seized possession of the estate. On the 3rd Viscount's death in 1714, Conolly took over as Farmer, and tried to buy out the Vintners for £6,000 and a continuing rent of £200 and 'two fat bucks'. After protracted negotiations, Connolly's descendants acquired the estate from the Vintners in 1737 at a cost of £15,000. (see my book p. 469)
None of this should have affected the under-tenancies on Nicholas and Adam (until 1737, by when both were long since dead). When Nicholas died in 1698, Drummard passed to Adam, who will now have leased both Rocktown and Drummard. Yet this could not be land that he was granted by William III. Adam is also described as being of Dawson's Bridge. This is a bit further south and is on land originally granted to Sir Thomas Phillips. Phillips's sons sold the lands to Thomas Dawson in 1633 at a time when Sir Thomas was taking on the Livery Companies in the Court of Star Chamber. I have so far found no evidence that Adam lived at Dawson's Bridge except for the poem during the siege of Londonderry, but it is entirely possible that he was granted a freehold in recognition for his valour at Londonderry and the Boyne. Yet the Dawson's remained the principal landowners there.
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Rick,
I will try to comment on the relevant parts of your very helpful post of yesterday.
I entirely share your uncertainty on whether Lt./Major John Downing is the son of Arthur. I can add very little to what you have said. I have to leave you to research these issues. All I can say is that I know both Castle Acre and Lexham. They were and are both huge estates, and so the Downings, Wingfields and Calybutes must have been extremely well to do. It follows that the children are likely to have married into their own milieu. It seems very likely that the family baptized at Weasenham All Saints (a beautiful church) are the children of Arthur and Susan Calybute (but not necessarily John, born in Chichester). I am sure that you are aware of this but I have picked up somewhere that Arthur seems to have had a wife prior to marrying Susan Calybute. He had a son George and daughter, who married a Mr. Bellamy. I have no dates for them and the evidence may be suspect. George may have died young, if there is a son George by Susan Calybute. Calybute Downing is generally described as of Sherrington, Gloucestershire. I have been unable to locate where this is. Have you found it? This is a long way from north Norfolk (but he did marry another Wingfield - whose family records are in impeccably good order!) Do we know what happened to the Lexham estate. It would be surprising if it were sold.
I would incline to the view that if John the son of Arthur went to Ireland as a soldier, he is likely to be a younger son. You may well have found a good alternative at Rattlesden, but it is clear that Nicholas, the maker of the will lived in Ireland (in the latter part of his life at least).
My focus for now is to try to follow John’s family in Ireland and to establish whether Adam and Nicholas descend from him. I posted a message on Rootschat earlier today which goes someway to sorting out the locations of Rocktown, Drumard and Dawson’s Bridge. You may want to look at this.
Ballykelly was on the Fishmongers’ proportion, which they renamed the Manor of Walworth after a distinguished Past Master and Lord Mayor of London. The castle was NW of Ballykelly and I have visited the site, now New Walworth House, where the original bawn now forms part of a walled garden. I quote from James Stevens Curl, The Londonderry Plantation 1609-1914, p. 233: ‘The Castle [at Walworth], occupied by Mr. George Downinge and Mr. Higgins stood inside a bawn with four flankers.’ This was in c. 1620.
I like your suggestion that Clotworthy Downing might have taken his name from Clotworthy Skeffington. I have also read on Rootschat that Alexander Clotworthy Downing, to give his full name, took his name from his godfathers, Lords Caloden (Alexander) and Massereene (Clotworthy Skeffington). This would also account for the naming of his brother Dawson Downing as a godson of one of the Dawsons. Was Jane Clotworthy a figment of the imagination of the Downing / Wilberforce family tree?
Robert
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Tim, I have found your excellent website on the siege of Londonderry on line. You again mention the poem of 'Gallant Adam Downing' from Dawson's Bridge. Have you found the full poem and do you know when it was written?
The Memoir written by or for Alexander George Downing in 1893 also mentions the same three lines of the poem, but it associates them with the Battle of the Boyne and not the Siege of Londonderry. In one sense this seems more logical as Adam could have been granted land at Dawson's Bridge after the siege and before the battle. Yet it is less likely that Adam would merit a mention among 40,000 Williamite troops. The Ballad of the Battle of the Boyne mentions the death of William's senior general, the 73-year-old Duke of Schomberg, as he crossed the river, but does not mention the Rev. George Walker, the real hero of Londonderry, who died beside him.
I would welcome any information as the date of the poem, could explain a lot. Robert
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I suppose that I have reached a point where it is worth summarising where my investigations have led, and I have changed my mind in the light of conflicting evidence that you have all provided. I have arranged for some research at PRONI to try to clarify the ancestry of Adam Downing, so I will not anticipate this, but it may be worth summarising my assessment of the conflicting records that we have in England. I do not think I am now saying anything very different from Accra (Jill), but I may put it in a more forthright manner!
1. The initial problem with the English research seems to have been caused by Wood, in Athenae Oxoniensis, where he claimed that Sir George Downing (1st Bart) was the son of the Rev. Calibute Downing D.D. We now know from Lucy Winthrop's letters that Sir George was the son of Emmanuel Downing.
2. When Burke prepared his Extinct Baronetage. He followed Wood in making Sir George the son of Calibute Downing. As he was aware that Calibute had a son, Henry, he made Henry a brother of Sir George. Yet he went further and claimed that Adam Downing, was the son of Henry. It is not clear how Burke came to this conclusion.
3. We are aware from Nicholas Downing's will in 1698 that his nephew was Adam of Bellaghy, and that his brother Adam's father had married 'Jane', and he had another brother William. If Henry, the son of Calibute, were the father of Adam, then he had brothers Nicholas and William. As the children of Calibute are extremely well documented, it is inconceivable that Henry would have had brothers, Nicholas and William without them being recorded.
4. In the meantime, the Downing of Gamlingay family tree was published by the heralds in their Visitation of Suffolk. This demonstrated with wills and the letters of Lucy Winthrop (the wife of Emmanuel) that Sir George was the son of Emmanuel Downing. It also showed that Emmanuel was the son of George Downing, the schoolmaster in Ipswich, who was the son of George Downing of Beccles.
5. When Downing and Wilberforce produced their family tree in 1901, they had become aware that Sir George was the son of Emmanuel. They were also aware that Adam was the nephew of Nicholas. It can only be assumed at this point that they became 'economical with the truth'. It suited them to believe that Adam Downing was descended from Geoffrey Downing and Elizabeth Wingfield (the Rev. Calibute was Geoffrey and Elizabeth's great-grandson). Without more ado, they prepared a tree that showed Sir George, Nicholas and Henry (who was Calybute's son) as children of Emmanuel, but ignored all Emmanuel's other children as shown in the Downing of Gamlingay family tree and ignored William, who was shown as a brother in Nicholas's will. Having imposed Emmanuel as their ancestor, they made him a brother of the Rev. Calibute and a son of the Rev. Calibute's father (also Calibute). This maintained the line back to Geoffrey and Elizabeth. Yet this conflicted with the Downing of Gamlingay family tree, based as it was on confirmed evidence.
6. Not content with all this subterfuge, Downing and Wilberforce, retained Adam Downing as a son of Henry Downing and, in keeping with Nicholas's will, they named his mother as Jane. As Adam had a grandson, Alexander Clotwothy Downing, I can only assume that they created a surname for her of Clotworthy. Yet we now know that Alexander Clotworthy took his name from his godfathers, Lords Caloden (Alexander) and Massereene (Clotworthy). I can only conclude that Jane Clotworthy is an invented name.
To be continued.
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Follow on from previous message.
7. We know that Nicholas held leaseholds on the Vintners' proportion near Bellaghy. He left Drumard to Adam, who already held a lease over Rocktown, which was adjacent. He also left the leasehold of Moyagall (adjacent to Drumard) to his nephew Daniel (who seems to have been a cousin of Adam). It looks likely that these Downings had lived in Ireland for some time - if not always.
8. Yet Downing and Wilberforce conclude that Adam arrived from England at the age of 23 having raised a force of soldiers and was reportedly conspicuously gallant at the siege of Londonderry and the battle of the Boyne, such that William III granted lands to him at Bellaghy (or even Dawson's Bridge). He could not have been granted lands at Bellaghy, as these were Vintners' Company freeholds and the Downings held an underlease from the head tenant Clotworthy Skeffington, later 3rd Viscount Massereene. I can find no evidence that Adam was granted land at Dawson's Bridge, which was outside the Vintners' proportion.
9. The evidence for Adam's gallantry comes from 19th Century ballads (I have found three) about the siege of Londonderry, which mentions his name among a whole list of other people who were involved. There is no doubt that he was at the siege, and he probably arrived there as a Captain serving under Colonel Clotworthy Skeffington after the defeat of the plantation forces at Dromore. I have gone through all the contemporary histories of the siege of Londonderry and Adam receives a mention as part of a Military Court Martial investigating cowardice among the defenders, and he signed Walker's humble address to William III at the end of the siege. His cousin, Major John Dobbin (see Nicholas's Will) was involved in sallying out to recover Windmill Hill, but Adam does not seem to have been involved. I can find no mention of Adam at the Battle of the Boyne. Nothing that I have found suggests conspicuous gallantry, although the researchers may unearth something.
10. All this leads me to believe that Adam's arrival from London is a fiction. It is much more likely that he was the son of George Downing, the Comptroller of Customs of the Irish society and his wife Jane Montgomery of Ballygowan. Hopefully PRONI will reveal some evidence one way or the other.
Robert
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I failed to cover one further piece of evidence in my two part assessment.
11. The inscription to Adam Downing at the Mausoleum at Bellaghy states:
In this place are deposited the remains of Adam Downing descended from an Ancient Family in Devonshire and honourably allied in this Kingdom, being married to Anne, daughter of John Jackson of Coleraine Esq. He gave signal proof of his courage at the Siege of Derry and Battle of The Boyne where he commanded an independant Company in confidence of Will. In consequence of which, he was appointed by Government in the year 1715 one of the Commissioners of Array. Soon after was made Lieutenant Colonel of Militia Dragoons and on the 18th January in the same year Deputy Governor of this County.
Age: 53
Date of Death: 15/12/1719
It does not state that Adam Downing came from England. It does not state that he is descended from the Clotworthy family as Downing and Wilberforce claimed it said. It does not claim that he was granted land by a grateful King in thanks for his services.
It does say that he commanded a Company at the Battle of the Boyne but not that he raised it at his own expense. It does say that he gave signal proof of his courage at the Siege of Londonderry and Battle of the Boyne. Just being there would have justified that comment, but we have not found any heroic event that would cause him to stand out from the crowd. It does state that he came from Devonshire. This seems surprising if he knew that he were directly descended from the Norfolk or Suffolk families. It is much more likely that his ancestors had lived in Ireland for several generations, and he thought that they may originally have come from Devon. Possibly Lieutenant John Downing b. c. 1575 was not a son of Arthur, but of Devon stock. Certainly there is early ancestry recorded as being from Devon, although this may be to satisfy the comment at the Mausoleum.
Robert
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A FAMILY RECORD OF THE DOWNING FAMILY IN IRELAND
Forgive me if I repeat some of my earlier RootsChat messages, but I am now bowing out of the complexity of the Downing family, and between Rick Turner and myself we have researched a few additional matters. The following is a slightly abbreviated copy of a message sent to Rick and to Peter Fullerton. I will send ie as several separate message as I can only send 5,000 words as a time.
Part 1
Piecing together a history of the Downing family both in England and in Ireland has been fraught with difficulty. Although there are numerous historic records for this well-connected name, in almost every instance, they conflict. The process is made more complicated, because Downing was not an unusual name in either England or Ireland, making it difficult to establish which individuals belong to these family lines. Although tradition dictates that the family came from Devon, as confirmed by the inscription at the family mausoleum at Bellaghy, and some of the early parts of the family trees show a descent from Devonshire, the more certain ancestry of the families that we have been researching is from East Anglia.
It has now been established that there are two families of Downing, for which no verifiable link has been found, despite their similar but not identical coats of arms. Most of the confusion has been caused by generations of genealogists, trying to shoehorn the two families together. The Memoir provided by Alexander George Downing is a good example of this problem.
The Norfolk family
The Norfolk family descends with certainty from Geoffrey Downing of St. Paul’s Belchamp in Essex, who married on 8 October 1549 Elizabeth Wingfield. There are Wingfield family trees which confirm Elizabeth’s descent from a galaxy of Norman knights including the Plantagenet kings. The Wingfields were often employed as soldiers and diplomats around the Crown, and Elizabeth’s second cousin, Sir Richard Wingfield was the Queen’s Marshal in Ireland at the time of the battle of Kinsale in 1601. She was the daughter of Thomas Wingfield of Dunham Magna (Great Dunham) in Norfolk. Her only son, Arthur Downing, was married at Belchamp St. Paul on 20 November 1570 to Susan Calybute of a family of wealthy land owners at Castle Acre in Norfolk. This resulted in Arthur occupying the adjacent estate at Lexham.
Arthur Downing had two sons by Susan Calybute, Calybute Downing, who married another Elizabeth Wingfield (a remote kinswoman of his grandmother) living at Shennington in Oxfordshire, and John born in about 1581. It is now thought that this John Downing went to Ireland, possibly in the service of his kinsman, Sir Richard Wingfield. Calybute Downing, had a son, The Rev. Calybute Downing, who graduated from Oxford University, and was an acolyte of Archbishop Laud, through whom he hoped to gain a prelacy. When Laud fell from grace before the execution of Charles I, the Rev. Calybute had to settle for becoming Rector of Hackney. To the horror of his former colleagues at high-church Oxford, he began to espouse non-conformist views. He had a surviving son, Henry, amongst a number of daughters by his second wife, Margaret Brett. According to a record on Geni https://www.geni.com/people/Margaret-Brett/6000000011002715652?through=6000000011002715646, Henry changed his name to Brett. He was baptised on 14 November 1640 at Hackney, but we have no verifiable record that he married or had children.
The Suffolk family
The Suffolk family, was, initially at least, of less exalted standing. The earliest known ancestor was George Downing of Beccles in Suffolk, whose will was dated 15 December 1561. By his wife, Cicely, he had a large family, of whom George, the third son entered Queen’s College, Cambridge in 1569, and later became headmaster of the grammar school in Ipswich. According to a family tree for Downing of Gamlingay (the Baronetcy family - see below), he married a Miss Bellamy, who was buried at St Lawrence, Ipswich in 1610. He made a will on 17 January 1611, proved in Ipswich on 3 October 1611, mentioning his unmarried daughters, but he also had a son, Nathaniel Downing, whose will, dated 7 May 1616, refers to his brothers, Joseph, Joshua, and Emanuel (sic) in addition to other family members.
End of part 1
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Part 2
Emmanuel Downing born on 12 August 1588 at Edwardstone, near Ipswich, was an exceptional personality. He graduated from Cambridge University, qualified as a barrister at the Inner Temple in London and became a non-conformist preacher. He married twice, firstly in 1614 to Anne, daughter of Sir James Ware, the Secretary for Ireland based in Dublin, and secondly to Lucy, the sister of John Winthrop, the founder of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, and its first Governor. There is a biography of Emmanuel written by Frederick Johnson Simmons in 1958, based on his correspondence and that of his second wife, Lucy. He moved with his first wife to live in Dublin but, following her death in 1620, he came home temporarily. After remarrying Lucy in 1622, he returned with her to Ireland until 1625. In 1629, he was invited by his brother-in-law to join the Massachusetts Bay Colony, but deferred travelling to America until the education of his younger children was completed. Yet some of his elder children joined John Winthrop in America. It was not until October 1638 that Emmanuel and Lucy set out with the remainder of their voluminous family. He became a key member of the colony, advocating slavery as a means of resolving the shortage of labour, and suggesting that native Indians should be traded for black African slaves. He was one of the founders of Harvard University, and George Downing, his eldest son by Lucy, was the second student to graduate from there. In 1652, Emmanuel and Lucy returned with some of their family to England, where he was appointed Clerk to the Council of State of Scotland, but died in Edinburgh on 26 September 1660.
George Downing also returned to England, where he became a strong supporter of the Commonwealth, preaching to Cromwell’s troops during the Civil War and serving as a diplomat at The Hague. Yet, following Cromwell’s death, he became a moving force in seeking the restoration of the monarchy, and was well rewarded by Charles II, becoming a baronet on 1 July 1663 and Secretary to the Treasury. He soon became extreme wealthy, building Downing Street in London, and amassing the fortune, which ultimately founded Downing College, Cambridge.
The conflicting family trees
Although the family trees provided by the Heralds in their Visitations of Norfolk and Suffolk must have been available well before this, the record of Downing of Gamlingay (the country estate of Sir George Downing) does not appear to have been published in printed form until 1900, when it formed part of a collection of Suffolk Manorial Families edited by Joseph James Muskett of New England. The resultant family tree demonstrates that George Downing of Beccles, who died in 1561 could not have been born much after 1530. It follows that he could not have been descended from Geoffrey Downing, who was born in 1524, notwithstanding numerous records, which provide links at various levels to amalgamate the two families. As this family record is based on the Heralds’ visitations and the various wills already mentioned, it can be assumed with some assurance that it is accurate. Muskett makes the following note on the similarity of the armorial bearings and the complexity of linking the two groups:
Armorial seals of Emmanuel Downing, his Wife, Lucy, and their son, Sir George Downing establish the fact that they used the arms attributed to Godfrey [presumably Geoffrey]Downing by Le Neve.
The arms of Downing of Norfolk, as given in the visitation of that county ... were used by the two Calibut Downings, father and son in 1613. The precise relationshio between the Norfolk and Suffolk Downings, however, has not yet been ascertained, and has been the subject of much misconception and misstatement.
There were several early genealogical records, but errors seem to have crept in, initially as a result of a biography of the Rev. Calybute Downing, included in Athenae Oxoniensis Vol. III, pp. 105-108 written by Anthony à Wood in 1649. This avers, incorrectly, that he was the father of Sir George Downing, the first baronet. It would seem that John Burke, in his Extinct Baronetage published in 1838, followed Wood in making the Rev. Calybute the father of Sir George. As he probably knew that Calybute had a son, Henry, he included him as a brother of Sir George. As explained above, this Henry seems to have changed his name to Brett. Burke then went further and claimed that Colonel Adam Downing of Bellaghy, the acknowledged ancestor of the Irish Downing family, was a son of this Henry Downing (or Brett). We have established no logical explanation for Burke to make this unlikely connection, but it has confused generations of later genealogists.
End of Part 2
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Part 3
In 1893, Alexander George Fullerton a great-great-grandson of Adam (his father had changed his name from Downing to Fullerton), produced a ‘Memoir’ of his family with coats of arms to demonstrate his descent from Geoffrey Downing and Elizabeth Wingfield. He needed to look no further than Burke to be able to show this connection and he produced two versions of his family tree, the first of which follows Burke. He included a short biography of each of the family members, and he fleshed out Henry Downing as follows:
We now revert to HENRY JOHN DOWNING Esq 2nd Son of the Reverend Calybute Downing and only brother of Sir George the lst Baronet. He was an Officer in the Guards of Charles 2nd, a body of Troops of about 4000 men, horse and foot, commanded by the Duke of Albermarle, "consisting of Gentlemen of quality and Veteran soldiers excellently well clad and well mounted and ordered”, as Evelyn remarks, who saw them reviewed July 4 1663. He married Jane, daughter of [BLANK] and died circa 1698 leaving two sons, Adam and George, the latter had a son Adam who died S.P.
While it is possible that Henry, the son of Rev. Calybute Downing, was an officer of the guard, he may have changed his name to Brett and we have no evidence that he married and had children or travelled to Ireland. Alexander George goes further than Burke, he claims that Henry had two sons, Adam (the Colonel) and George, who had a son, Adam.
Sometime before the production of the second version of his family tree in 1893, Alexander George must have seen the will of Nicholas Downing of Drumard near Bellaghy dated 1698, in which Nicholas makes bequests to his nephew Adam, among several other nephews and nieces. We know that Alexander George became aware of it, because, in the second version of his Memoir, Nicholas is positioned as Adam’s uncle.
Although Nicholas does not provide a name for Adam’s father in his will, he mentions a brother William. Yet there is no Nicholas or William included among the children of the Rev. Calybute Downing in English parish records. Nicholas’s will refers to Adam’s mother, ‘Jane’, and there is an implication that Adam is a member of a well-established Irish family. It mentions Adam’s siblings, John, George, and Samuel, and William’s daughter, Sarah. Other cousins are Tobias Mullhollen, and Daniel, Abraham and Bernard Downing. There is no record, as claimed in the first version of Alexander George’s family tree, of George marrying and having a son Adam. Among his bequests, Nicholas provides the leases of the township of Drumard to Adam ‘of Rocktown’, and of Moyagall to Adam’s cousin, Daniel. Moyagall, Drumard and Rocktown are adjacent townships on the Vintners’ estate near Bellaghy.
End of part 3
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Part 4
At some point before 1893, Alexander George and his genealogist produced a second version of their Memoir. This claims that Adam is a descendant of Lieutenant John Downing, who fought at the battle of Kinsale. They also claim that it was this John, who was the second son of Arthur of Lexham. They show that John married a ‘Margaret’ with a son, George, who assisted the head tenant of the Fishmongers’ proportion at Ballykelly. George, in turn, had two sons, Nicholas (from the will) and George, the Comptroller of Customs for Londonderry, who, so they claim, married Jane, daughter of ‘Hugh Montgomery of Ballygowan’, becoming the parents of Adam Downing.
As Alexander George Fullerton never lived in Ireland, where he might have been able to research these new connections, his conclusions may have seemed a bit controversial. Yet his genealogist will have had access to the Dublin Public Records Office, which was destroyed in the troubles in 1922. The second version of the Memoir still assumes that Sir George Downing is the son of the Rev. Calybute, and hence a descendant of the Norfolk family, and Calybute’s son Henry remains in the tree but without issue.
In 1901, yet another family record was produced by WC Downing and R Wilberforce in Pennsylvania. This was well received and there is a copy in the Library of Congress at Washington, DC. Closer inspection shows that it is full of flaws and it conflicts with the Downing of Gamlingay tree mentioned earlier. They pick up on Burke’s assertion that Adam was the son of Henry Downing, and provide Henry with a brother, Nicholas, (but not William), showing that they had seen Nicholas’s will. In an apparent effort to overcome the difficulty that Calybute did not have sons, Nicholas or William, they make them the sons of Emmanuel of the Suffolk family, who is included as a brother of the Rev. Calybute Downing. Yet Emmanuel and Lucy Winthrop in their extensive correspondence do not mention sons Henry, Nicholas or William, and we know that Emmanuel was the son of George, the Schoolmaster of Ipswich. It is also apparent that they had seen the first version of Alexander George’s Memoir, as they copy its description of Henry as an officer of the guard of Charles II almost word for word. They then make an addition of their own. They identify Adam’s mother Jane as ‘Jane Clotworthy’. After extensive research, it can be shown that there was no suitable Jane among the members of the Clotworthy of Massereene family. She seems to be a spurious person named Jane, to fit with Nicholas’s will, and Clotworthy, because Adam had a grandson, Alexander Clotworthy Downing, whose name needed explanation. (It has now been found that he was named after his godfather, Clotworthy Skeffington.)
Downing and Wilberforce present Adam as a hero of the siege of Londonderry, being granted land at Bellaghy by a grateful William III for his conspicuous gallantry. Contemporary histories confirm that Adam was present at the siege, but there is no mention of any great heroism on his part, and no record that he was at the Battle of the Boyne. Furthermore, the land at Bellaghy was a leasehold from the Vintners’ Company and was not within the giving of a grateful King. Nevertheless, the Downing and Wilberforce record has confused those who have seen it, including myself. (Please see an assessment of the part played by Adam Downing at the siege of Londonderry in Appendix 1.)
Dorcas Blois
It has often been recorded that Dorcas Blois married George Downing, the schoolmaster at Ipswich, rather than Miss Bellamy, as recorded in the Visitation family tree. There was a Dorcas Blois, baptised on 2 September 1592 at St. Nicholas Ipswich, who married a George Downing. This is confirmed in Blois family trees. Unfortunately, this Dorcas was too young to have married the Schoolmaster, whose children (including Emmanuel) were born between 1578 and 1606. This calls into question who her husband was. Perhaps because of this, Alexander George Downing named her as the wife of George Downing of Ballykelly, who happened to be a contemporary. Yet we have confirmation of Dorcas’s husband, George, being buried in 1655 at St. Peter’s Spexhall in Suffolk, and his gravestone mentions Dorcas and her father, William Blois. We also have a record that George of Ballykelly in about 1663 sought to be buried on Church Island, Lough Beg. This still leaves Dorcas’s husband unaccounted for.
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Part 5
Evidence to link Adam Downing to Arthur Downing of Lexham
It has been explained above that Alexander George identified Lieutenant John Downing, who arrived in Ireland prior to the Battle of Kinsale, as the son of Arthur Downing of Lexham. Apart from the Memoir, the only tenuous evidence to corroborate it is the knowledge that Sir Richard Wingfield, the Queen’s Marshal in Ireland, was his grandmother’s second cousin. Perhaps he took a young kinsman under his wing. We also know that Sir Richard came to Derry in 1608 to put down O’Doherty’s rebellion, so it is possible that Lieutenant John was left behind there as part of a peace keeping force. We have nothing to confirm Alexander George’s assertion that John married a Margaret and had a son George. Certainly, a George Downing is recorded in a Muster of Londonderry in 1628 and was a tenant on the Fishmonger’s proportion with leases mentioning him there up to 1659. We have found no record that he married or had children. We have found no record of a second George Downing, purportedly George of Ballykelly’s son, mentioned in the Memoir as the Comptroller of Customs, or of his wife, Jane, daughter of Hugh Montgomery of Ballygowan. The Montgomery Manuscripts (the principal source of Montgomery genealogy) do not record a Hugh Montgomery of Ballygowan. A Hugh Montgomery of Ballymagawn, who is mentioned, does not fit with the dates. Yet Hugh Montgomery of Gransheogh, acquired lands at Maghera (near Bellaghy) and provided ‘several daughters who he matched well’. He had a son and a grandson, both William. We have found a document confirming that Colonel Adam Downing lent £800 to the grandson, William, secured on his estates. It seems probable that this was a loan to a cousin.
A leap of faith is required to accept that Adam Downing is a descendant of Arthur Downing by this route, but it seems a lot more plausible, than making him a son of some Henry Downing in England. The motive of Downing and Wilberforce is clear; they wanted to demonstrate the Irish family’s connection to the Downing baronetcy. This now looks less likely.
The impact of our findings
If we accept the hypothesis that Arthur Downing of Lexham is the ancestor of Colonel Adam Downing, it means that the Irish Downings are descendants of the Norfolk rather than the Suffolk families. As there is no known connection between the two groups, it means that the Irish Downings are not related to Emmanuel Downing, Sir George Downing and his baronetcy, or to Downing College, Cambridge. This causes a significant change to our previous assumptions.
What is astonishing is that Alexander George Fullerton and his genealogist, seem to have been correct in linking Adam to Arthur Downing through these earlier generations living in Ireland. The Memoir is the only record which we have found which follows this route, and, in the absence of the Dublin Public Records Office, we have not been able to find the evidence that they must have established. Sadly, they appear to have left no notes.
Alexander George was not entirely right, as he continued to follow Burke’s erroneous contention that Sir George Downing was the son of the Rev. Calybute Downing, and hence a member of the Norfolk family and thus Alexander George’s kinsman. Although he included Henry as another son of the Rev. Calybute, he is no longer shown as the father of Adam. Unfortunately for him, he had quartered the Brett coat of arms with his own. As he was now contending that he was not descended from the Rev. Calybute Downing and Margaret Brett, he must have known that his coat of arms was wrong!
It can be assumed that Downing and Wilberforce, who published their record about eight years after Alexander George, saw the first but not the second version of his Memoir. Notwithstanding that they had seen Nicholas’s will, they concocted yet another Irish connection to the baronetcy by linking Emmanuel as a son of Calybute Sr.
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Adam Downing at the siege of Londonderry
Part 1
Some of you have shown an interest in Adam Downing's role at the siege of Londonderry and the battle of the Boyne. I have undertaken some considerable research into this, which you may find of value.
Adam Downing’s role at the siege of Londonderry and the battle of the Boyne
The principal contemporary record of the siege of Londonderry is the published diary of the Rev. George Walker, a transcript of which can be examined on http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=eebo;idno=A67017.0001.001.
This does not focus particularly on the events of the siege, but is designed to promote the efforts of Walker himself and the Anglican Church of Ireland. The only mention of Adam Downing and his Dobbin cousins, John and his son William, (Major John Dobbin was Nicholas’s cousin and an executor of his will), is as members of a Court Martial to ‘rectify all misdemeanours’ in the City. They were all signatories to a humble address expressing their loyalty to William and Mary signed by 146 survivors. Of these John Dobbin was the twelfth signatory. William Dobbin and Adam Downing signed much lower down the list. Mackenzie’s Narrative of the Siege of Derry written largely as a Presbyterian criticism of Walkers’ diary, adds nothing more about them.
At the beginning of the siege, ‘Captain Adam Downing of Bellaghy’ is named by James II in a long list of ‘traitors’. It is likely that he joined his landlord, Colonel Clotworthy Skeffington, in an attempt to hold the line of Dromore, prior to the siege, and when this failed he went with Skeffington to seek refuge within Londonderry’s walls. (Skeffington threatened to burn down the gates to gain entry.) Yet, according to William R. Young in The Fighters of Derry (1932). Skeffington set out from Antrim with his father, the 2nd Viscount Massereene, and a list of their original officers does not include Adam. At some point, Major John Mitchelburne (later Colonel and, after Baker’s death, Governor of Londonderry) took over command of the Skeffington Regiment. Adam’s name is still not in a list of the regiment’s new officers. Nevertheless, it is reasonable to assume that he was associated with Skeffington.
The first record of Adam Downing’s heroism comes from the inscription on his tomb at the Mausoleum at St. Tida’s Bellaghy, which may have been written by his son John. It says:
He gave signal proof of his courage at the Siege of Derry and Battle of The Boyne where he commanded an independent Company in confidence of Will. In consequence of which, he was appointed by Government in the year 1715 one of the Commissioners of Array. Soon after was made Lieutenant Colonel of Militia Dragoons and on the 18th January in the same year Deputy Governor of this County.
End of Part 1
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Adam Downing at the siege of Londonderry
Part 2
In 1794, to commemorate the centenary of the siege, G. Douglas produced Derriana, a compilation of records of the siege, including Walker’s Diary and Mackenzie’s criticism. Although it includes numerous short histories and poems, Adam is not mentioned in them. At the end of the compilation there is a poem, Londeriados, thought to have been written about ten years after the siege. It runs to twenty-seven pages, but makes no mention of Adam. Nevertheless, it mentions Major John Dobbin in the section, outlining the battle for Windmill Hill. This was an outcrop outside the Bishop’s Gate that had been taken by the Jacobites. It was imperative that it should be recaptured, as it threatened the gate. The defending forces launched an attack with 5,000 men led by Colonel Ramsey. 2,500 of them, including Ramsay, were killed. At this point:
Major Dobbin led some valiant men
Who presently the Irish trenches gain.
In 1823, the Rev. John Graham, MA (1774-1884), Rector of Magilligan, north-east of Newtown Limavady, compiled ‘A History of the Siege of Londonderry and the Defence of Enniskillen’. In a later edition, it incorporates parts of Lord Macaulay’s History of England, which devotes a chapter to the detailed events of the siege. This mentions Adam’s role in the Court Martial, and Major Dobbin’s part in the retaking of Windmill Hill (which may well have been sourced from Londeriados). It records that ‘great services were also rendered to the City by’ Major Dobbin among others. Captain William Dobbin, who was an advocate, was appointed as one of six commissioners to treat with the enemy on 13th July to try to gain time for the relieving ships to arrive. He was also sent by Walker on 4th August, as part of a deputation to congratulate Major-General Kirk on his arrival.
It would appear that Graham was a strong supporter of the Orange Order; he also wrote a series of ballads, particularly to commemorate the ancestors of prominent Orangemen, which will, by then, have included the Downing descendents. In one of these, which extends to thirty-two verses, the twenty-seventh verse says:
From Charlemont came Caulfield's force
Chichester from Dungannon
With horse and foot that from Dromore
Escap’d the Irish cannon;
Colhoun from Letterkenny came,
On angry foes proud frowning.
From Dawson’s Bridge, his fair abode,
Came gallant Adam Downing.
It then provides a short biography for each name. For Adam, it states:
Captain Adam Downing, of the county of Londonderry, was attainted by King James’s Parliament. He was ancestor of the late Rev. Clotworthy Downing, Rector of Leckpatrick, in the County of Tyrone, who inherited from him a considerable property in the neighbourhood of Castledawson and other places. He died at his residence near that town, many years after the revolution, and was buried in the family vault at Bellaghy, in the county of Londonderry, where a handsome monument was erected to his memory.
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Adam Downing at the siege of Londonderry
Part 3
There is a second version of this poem by Graham, known as the Catalogue, written in 1841. The 29th verse reads:
From Charlemont came Caulfield’s corps,
Chichester from Dungannon,
With many more who at Dromore
Escaped King James’s cannon.
Porter strong, Leslie and Long,
Macartney and brave Downing,
Spike and Spaight held shipway gate,
At the boom we lost brave Browning.
In this version, the biography on Adam states:
Captain Adam Downing, a distinguished defender of the city, ancestor of the late Rev. Clotworthy Downing, rector of Leckpatrick, in the county of Tyrone. The family has long been respectably settled in the county of Londonderry.
In a book of poems dedicated to the Orange and Conservative Societies collated in 1822, one verse reads:
George Walker and Murray rode here in a hurry,
With Saunderson, Cairnes, and Noble, renown’d
Stout Canning and Rawson, with Downing and Dawson,
Unmov’d on their post here in Derry were found;
With Knoxes and Rosses, Hills, Grahams and Crosses,
And Beresford brave, from the town of Coleraine,
Dunbar, Halls and Rices, with Blairs, Brookes, and Prices,
All fac’d the proud foe with a noble distain.
In a ballad forming part of a collection in the Bodleian Library in Oxford published in 1869, the 4th verse reads:
Here our noble fathers bled,
For the truth so glorious, O.
When all earthly hopes had fled,
Battling - yet victorious, O.
Till brave Downing - townsman born -
Saved his birthplace when forlorn,
And the First of August Morn
Dawned on a Maiden City, O.
This implies that Adam was born in the City of Londonderry, which now seems quite plausible. While not too much emphasis, perhaps, should be placed on poems designed to highlight the heroism of Orangemen, an aura has gathered around Adam Downing, which may not be entirely warranted.
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Adam Downing at the siege of Londonderry
Part 4
Major John Dobbin, whose family had long since emigrated to America, is not forgotten for his part in in the retaking of Windmill Hill. Graham writes:
In the attack was valiant Ramsay slain,
Of full five thousand scarcely half remain.
Dobbin, as Major, some bold heroes led,
Before whose sword the frightened Irish fled.
William Young in Fighters of Derry (p. 164), reports on Adam that ‘After the relief of Derry, he received a commission in King William’s army, serving at the Boyne and in the subsequent campaign. He signed the address to King William.’ Although there is a list of officers at the Boyne, including Colonel Clotworthy Skeffington, Adam is not mentioned in it. While not too much emphasis, perhaps, should be placed on poems designed to highlight the heroism of Orangemen, an aura has gathered around Adam Downing.
Alexander George Fullerton’s Memoir provides another biography of him, which states:
ADAM DOWNING Esquire, eldest son and heir, was born in 1666 and accompanied William 3rd to Ireland and held the rank of Colonel in his Army. At the conclusion of the campaigns of l689/90, he was made Deputy Governor of the County of Londonderry, Colonel of a Regiment of Horse, and a Commissioner of Array, having already received a large tract of land, now worth about £6000 a year, as a reward for his services in the Field, called Ballaghy, Magharefelt County of Derry. It is still in the possession of the Family, together with the sword, which he wore at the siege of Derry and the Battle of the Boyne - the Title Deed according to tradition of the Estate. He was one of the Defenders of Derry, where the sufferings from the protracted siege of 90 days and the heroic valour displayed by the officers and men won for them the admiration of their country. Colonel Downing immediately after it raised a body of men at his own expense to serve in the campaign, which terminated in the Battle of the Boyne, where he displayed considerable ability and obtained the title of Gallant, for in a contemporary Ballad called the Battle of the Boyne are the following lines [see above]:
From Dawson‘s Bridge his fair abode
Came gallant Colonel Downing.
His popularity was very great on his estates, for although he lived at a period when political and religious feelings were wound up to their highest pitch, he was just and tolerant towards those who were opposed to him in opinion and severely condemned the penal enactments exercised against the defeated party. and foretold the evil consequences likely to ensue from a Policy at once so unjust and so impolitic. He was charitable and hospitable and imbued with a strong sense of religion. His will which is dated 1716 presents a curious picture of the times, begins thus - First I commend my Soule to Almighty God that through the blessed merits of my Redeemer Jesus Christe my sins may be forgiven. [Most wills of this period begin in a similar vein] He died December 15th 1719 deeply lamented by his relations and friends and was followed by thousands to the Mausoleum in the Church Yard of Bellaghy, where he lies buried.
He married Margaret [in fact Anne, who was a niece not a daughter of the Coleraine family] Daughter of John Jackson Esq of Coleraine, an honorable alliance as he himself terms it, and had two Sons,
Henry named after his Grandfather died a minor, and
John, his successor in the Family Estates.
The Epitaph on the monument of Colonel Downing gives the descent from Devonshire.
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Adam Downing at the siege of Londonderry
Part 5
Despite clearly implying that Adam arrived from England, Alexander George later changed his mind, probably in the light of seeing the will of Adam’s uncle, Nicholas Downing. He now claimed that Adam’s family had been in Ireland for three generations before him. Again, it is probable that Downing and Wilberforce had access to this Memoir, as they recorded with some embellishment:
COLONEL ADAM DOWNING was a distinguished partisan of King William III, and went to Ireland with him in 1690. He held the rank of Colonel in his army, raised a body of men at his own expense, and was present at the siege of Derry, where he gave early and signal proofs of his courage, participating in the Battle of the Boyne (July 12, 1690), and contributing eminently by his gallantry and skill to the success of the party with which he was engaged. He received the appointments of Deputy Governor of the County of Derry, Colonel of the Militia, and was one of the Commissioners of Array. He was also granted by the King a large tract of land in County Derry. He died May 17 1719, and was buried at Bellaghy. The inscription on his monument mentions his descent from the ancient Devonshire family of Clotworthy [which it does not!].
According to Young, ‘he acquired considerable estates in the neighbourhood of Bellaghey (sic), marrying a Miss Jackson of Coleraine, and was a Deputy-Governor of Co Derry’. Yet Young does not say that he did anything conspicuously gallant.
Robert Stedall
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Very nicely summarized Robert.
I saw only two minor errors:
1. Adam's mother was named as 'Jane' is Adam's own Will, not the Will of Nicholas, and
2. Adam's eldest son, Henry, did not die a minor. He was born 1695/6, went to Trinity College, Dublin. His Will was proved in 1766 as 'Henry Downing, Esq. of Dublin'.
Great post that hopefully clears up many "foggy" misrepresentations.
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I entirely accept both are my errors. Thanks!
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By way of disseminating some further information on the Downing family, which has been taxing several of us in recent weeks. I attach some further findings on this thread (which should actually be for Downing of Shenington not Sherrington).
THE CHILDREN OF ARTHUR DOWNING OF LEXHAM
Part 1
It has long been established that Arthur Downing of Lexham was the son of Geoffrey Downing and Elizabeth Wingfield of Great Dunham in Norfolk. Arthur was born or baptized on 10 May 1543 at Belchamp St. Paul in Essex and he had two sisters, Elizabeth and Katherin, both born at Belchamp St Paul. This is confirmed by Parish records. It is also known that Arthur married Susan Calybute of Castle Acre in Norfolk on 1 August 1570 at Clare Parish Church next to Belchamp St Paul. Susan, who was aged seventeen, was Arthur’s second cousin through his Wingfield connection; she was a considerable ‘catch’. The Calybutt family were substantial land owners at Castle Acre, and Susan was one of four daughters, without a brother, named as heirs to their father. As a result of this, Arthur seems to have inherited the substantial Lexham estate, adjacent to Castle Acre, through his wife.
It had always been assumed that Susan Calybute was Arthur’s only wife, as confirmed by the combined version of the 1563, 1589 and 1613 Visitations of Norfolk, prepared by the Harleian Society in the 19th Ccntury. Yet, if the visitations are looked at separately, the 1563 visitation shows Arthur with four children John, Dorothye, Anne, and Suzan, suggesting that they were born prior to the date of the Visitation. This cannot be right, as Arthur was 20 in 1563 and Susan was 10. Although there is an addendum, included in 1570, confirming that Susan Calybute had now married Arthur at the age of seventeen. John and his three sisters can only have been born after 1570. The visitation record does not mention Susan’s son Calybute Downing, suggesting that he was born after the visitation had taken place. We have an unverified record that Calybute was born in on 1 June 1574, 43 months after the marriage, but as he was the fifth child he could not have been born until later, unless Susan had twins beforehand, and we have no evidence of this.
To add to this complication, there are baptismal records of nine children of ‘Arthur Downing’ at Weasenham All Saints between 1580 and 1589. These do not include Susan’s son Calybute, but do include a son called Wingfilde baptised in 1587. Weasenham is about three miles north of Lexham, and although it was badly damaged in Cromwellian times, it remains significantly more imposing than the Saxon churches at East and West Lexham. We also have a record that ‘Arthur Downing’ married Anne Pears, a widow, on 28 November 1587 at Swaffham, about five miles south of Lexham. It is thus possible that Anne was the mother of the two youngest children born at Weasenham All Saints in 1588 and 1589.
See part 2
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THE CHILDREN OF ARTHUR DOWNING
Part 2
We do not know if the first seven children at Weasenham were the children of Arthur and Susan, but it seems likely given that one of them is named Wingfilde. Nevertheless, there is no mention of any of them in the range of later genealogical records that we have explored. We have examined the possibility that there was a second Arthur Downing living in the vicinity of Weasenham. The only record that we have found is of an Arthur, son of John Downing, who died at Little Dunham (about three miles from Lexham and six miles from Weasenham) on 8 March 1578. The fact that his father is mentioned suggests that this is the death of a child. It is also unlikely that he would make regular use of a church six miles from his home when there were others much closer. Even if he did, he died in 1578 and cannot be the father of the Weasenham children.
The question is made more complicated by the evidence of the 1589 visitation, which was signed by Arthur. This mentions his wife Susan, his son John and his three sisters, but not Calybute or the Weasenham children or Anne Pears. If you accept this at face value, you have to conclude that Arthur of Lexham did not marry Anne Pears and was not the father of the Weasenham children. You also have to conclude that Calybute was born after 1589. Yet Calybute married another Elizabeth Wingfield, a widow aged 34, on 13 December 1604 in Tinwell, Rutland and if he were born after 1589, he would have been no more than 15 at marriage to a lady 19 years older than himself, and his eldest child was born a year later. This does not seem likely. Against this, there is no mention of any of the children other than John and Calybute in any subsequent genealogical records or in the 1613 Visitation (which does not mention the Downing family at all). Nevertheless, the dating of the 1589 Visitation record has to be questioned.
The College of Heralds has confirmed that Arthur Downing was granted arms in 1576. This may seem surprising as the College records that Arthur received a visitation in 1563 (and only those holding arms would have been eligible for this). Yet the information in the so called 1563 visitation could only have become available in about 1576. There is a similar problem with the information in the 1589 visitation signed by Arthur Downing, which appears to relate to the time of the granting of his arms in 1576. If it does relate to the earlier period, everything seems to fall into place. Susan’s first four children would have been born by 1576; Calybute, could have been born in 1577 or a bit later, making him about 27 at marriage; and the first seven Weasenham children could have been born to Susan between 1580 and 1587 when she died. Arthur would then have married Anne Pears in November 1587, and she provided two further children in 1588 and 1589.
Did the College of Heralds get it wrong?
Robert
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I have had an interest in Lieutenant John Downing and have done some research on him and his children. I have collated what I have below:
John Downing (the 1st)
John Downinge (Downing) was a Protestant soldier. David Edwards in “Regions and Rulers in Ireland 1100-1650” notes that John Downing was a servant of Robert Dudley (1st Earl of Leicester) when Dudley was Governor-General of the United Provinces. A “John Downinge” does indeed appear in a list of Dudley’s household members dated November 1587 where he is clearly shown to be a musketeer in Dudley’s bodyguard. Mr Edwards says that John the musketeer is the same person who subsequently went to Ireland. I do not know how that link was established.
John was certainly in Ireland by the late 1590s and he fought in the Nine Years’ War against the Irish who opposed the expansion of English power in the island. He served in Munster as the Lieutenant in Captain Sir Francis Barkely’s company of foot. He was present in 1602 with the English army in Co. Cork and was one of the officers present at the capture of a stronghold on Dursey Island prior to the surrender of Dunboy Castle. Irish prisoners from both sites were executed after capture. The war finally ended in 1603.
Subsequently, the strength of the English army in Ireland was reduced and in October 1604 Barkely’s foot company was ordered to be disbanded (Calendar State Papers Ireland 1604). Accordingly, Downing was discharged from the army on a pension of 2 shillings a day granted by King James 1 (Calendar State Papers Ireland 1606). By April 1606 he was living in Clonshire, Co. Limerick. At that time martial law was in force and the Lord President of Munster had granted him a commission to act as a commissioner of martial law. On one particular occasion Downing was accused of maliciously exceeding his powers of summary execution while exercising his duties. He was tried for murder of malice which in Ireland was a treasonable offence carrying an automatic death penalty. He was tried at Limerick on 12-13 April 1606 and found guilty but the Lord Deputy of Ireland granted him His Majesty’s pardon on account of his previous good service as a soldier in the late wars. In the Calendar of State Papers John is described by the Earl of Thomond (who had a personal interest in the trial) as “Lieutenant to Sir Francis Barckley” and “a very bloody murderer”.
One of the men on the trial jury was Sir Richard Boyle the future 1st Earl of Cork. John Downing subsequently became a tenant and trusted follower of Boyle who leased John land at Ballysaggard, Co. Waterford. John must have been at Ballysaggard by June 1619 because Boyle gave him ten bars of cast iron for the windows of his new stone house (Lismore Papers Series 1, Vol 1 page 224). Boyle notes on 3 June 1629 “My honest tenant Leeftennant downinge departed this lyfe.” (Lismore Papers Series 1, Vol 2 page 325).
John Downing made a will dated 1 June 1629. In the will he is styled John Downinge, gent, Ballmanagh, Co. Tipperary and in it he mentions by name three sons, Robert, Thomas and John. It is known that he also had a daughter named Catherine. In his will he left his farm at Pobalfentarragh to his wife but unfortunately he does not reveal her name. Pobalfentarragh (also known as Pobalnaskagh) was a townland in Co. Limerick near Clonshire. Ballymanagh was a townland near Clonmel now known as Monkstown. His original will no longer exists; only a summary extract of it survives made by Jennings (National Archives of Ireland: Jennings Collection).
Continued in next post:
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His son - Robert Downing
His eldest son Robert was mortally wounded on 18 or 19 February 1641/42 near Lismore serving as a Cornet in Lord Broghill’s troop of horse. Broghill was a son of the 1st Earl of Cork. Writing to the Earl on 26 January 1641/42 Broghill stated “I have made my choice of Robinge downinge for my Coronet,…..” (Lismore Papers, Series 1, Vol 4 page 255). Robert’s wife Elizabeth of Ballysaggard, Co. Waterford made a deposition in August 1642 recording the death of her husband and enumerating her property that had been lost, stolen or ruined due to the rebellion. Elizabeth’s deposition is held in Trinity College Dublin. Robert had leases of land at Ballyduff and Ballysagard, Co. Waterford. On 1 May 1627, the 1st Earl of Cork had granted “my servant Robert Downing an estate in so much of Ballyduff as lyes on the northside of Awmore for his own lyfe, his wives and his sons” for an annual rent of £25 sterling (Lismore Papers Series 1, Vol 2 , p216-17). Robert was buried in the Cathedral Church, Lismore by Urban Vigors, Chaplain to Lord Broghill.
In the Civil Survey of County Waterford 1654-1656 a man named Richard Downing gent (a protestant) is noted to be in possession of land owned by the Earl of Cork at Ballysaggart-more. In the 1659 Census of Ireland Richard is recorded as one of only three English residents out of the 74 residents of the townland of Ballsaggard. Richard could have been the son of Robert Downing killed in 1641/42 but that is conjecture.
His son - Thomas Downing
His son Thomas made two depositions on 24 November 1652. In both he is referred to as Major Thomas Downing of Lismore, Co. Waterford. One deposition records that rebels came and pillaged the house belonging to his mother Catherine. He recounts that this incident occurred at the time of the siege of Lismore in 1645 when Catherine was living in Ballysaggard, Co. Waterford. She left to complain about her treatment but was overtaken at Ballygarran (now called Glencairn) and set upon and killed. His second deposition states that his brother-in-law Edward Croker was murdered by rebels at Ballyanker (Ballyanchor). In addition, Thomas related that during the rebellion his own wife Anne and his three young children had been murdered in a house at Miltowne, Co.Limerick. Both of Thomas’s depositions are held in Trinity College Dublin. Lord Broghill writing to the 1st Earl of Cork from Lismore on 26 January 1641/42 states “Here is Tom Downinge whos wife has bin most barbarously killed and whos children he fears are so, continues here without {any} of money and clothes, that it pities me to see him.” (Lismore Papers , Series 1, Volume 4, page 256). Thomas also served at Lismore, in 1645.
His daughter - Catherine Downing
His daughter Catherine married Edward Croker. They lived at Ballyanker (Ballyanchor), near Lismore, Co. Waterford. In February 1641/42 her husband was taken from his home by rebels and killed in a field nearby. At the time she made her deposition on 27 November 1652 she was living at Ballynyroone and had not remarried. Catherine’s deposition is held in Trinity College Dublin. She is thought to have died in 1654.
His son - John Downing (the 2nd)
His son John married Catherine Browne. During the Irish Rebellion of 1641 this John Downing (the 2nd) was a Lieutenant tasked by the President of Munster (Sir William St Leger) to defend Doneraille Castle (Co. Cork) against the Irish Catholic forces. John made a deposition on 30 June 1642. In his deposition he is styled John Downing, Lieutenant of Lissown, Co. Tipperary. He describes his losses since the start of the rebellion in 1641 in particular becoming dispossessed of his farm in Lissown. He estimated his losses to be one thousand pounds sterling which included unrecoverable debts owed by Edward Spring and Walter Travers “disabled protestants”. He names several persons who he knew to have been killed by the rebels and they included an Ann Downing, Robert Downing and Richard Downing. One of John and Catherine’s children was also named John (the 3rd)
His grandson - John Downing (the 3rd)
John Downing (the 3rd) married Aphra Maunsell. John died at Broomfield, Midleton, Co. Cork on 1 Oct 1691 aged 57 and is buried in Midleton Church of Ireland churchyard. Aphra died in 1708 aged 68. They had at least 10 children.
Continued in next post.
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Observations
I have not come across any evidence to support the claim made in the memoir that Lieutenant John Downing went to Ulster after the Nine Years War or had a son George by a wife named Margaret. We do know that he was still in the army in Munster till 1604, then living in Limerick in 1606 and surfaces in Co Waterford by June 1619 as a tenant of Boyle. Edwards cites evidence that Downing was in Co. Limerick as late as June 1617.
The John Downinge son of Arthur Downinge baptised on 1 Jan 1578 in Chichester, Sussex would appear to be too young to be the same John Downing who was a soldier in the Earl of Leicester’s bodyguard in 1587.
I have not discovered the birthplace of John Downing (the 1st), his place of marriage or the name of his wife. Some pedigrees of related families say that his wife's maiden name was Travers or Traverse (without specifying her first name). However, the Blennerhassett pedigree, states that his wife was Annabella Traverse. Yet in Thomas Downing's deposition mentioned above Thomas says that his mother's first name was Catherine not Annabella.
I have not yet found any evidence to suggest that he ever held any rank higher than Lieutenant in the army.
Paul
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Hello Paul,
Thank you for posting your message on this thread.
We have a team of DOWNING researchers who have been trying to prove a few theories for many years and it is always good to hear from another genealogist who may have an interest in the subject matter.
May I ask how you may be connected to the DOWNING family ?
It seems that the depth of your research indicates more than a casual interest.
On the content of your research, I can confirm that much of the information you have provided corroborates what we have found from various sources. I have seen excerpts from the Lismore Papers and the 1652 testimony of Major Thomas Downing in several sources, regarding the 1642 raids at Ballyanker and Ballysaggard that resulted in the murders of several of his family members by Captain Edmund Fennell. On the other hand, we have developed a family tree (unpublished) that shows the relationships of the descendants of Lt. John Downing (d. 1629), including his sons, Robert, Thomas, John, and daughter Catherine, who married Edward Croker, and there may be a few things to clarify among those relationships.
I know I have recently reviewed parts of the Lismore Papers, but unfortunately cannot seem to access most of the parts you cite in your 3-part message, and the only part I can view, Series 1, Vol IV, does NOT contain the reference you cited on p.256 (as far as I can tell).
I found your reference to Robert Dudley in your 1st message, regarding a 'John Downing' as a musketeer in 1587 to be a high value clue which I had not seen before, and it IS possible that the 'John Downing' you mention fits the requirements that would link him as the son of Arthur Downing, but more information would be necessary to confirm that.
Assuming your interest is more than casual, I'd like to invite you to join our group and perhaps we can help each other out. We have a virtual "ton" of data we can share.
I don't particularly like posting personal email addresses on here and perhaps you agree, but I'd like to send you a "private message" somehow and maybe Facebook could facilitate that (if you have a Facebook page). Please reply with any ideas you may have on how to connect privately.
Thanks again,
Rick T
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I have been researching Downings since discovering I am descended from them.
Lieutenant John Downing that married Catherine Browne for example would be my 9th Great Grandfather.
I am currently stuck on figuring out whether Catherine Browne was the daughter of Sir Valentine Browne, 1st Baronet of Molahiffe, County Kerry or Sir Valentine Browne, 2nd Baronet of Molahiffe, County Kerry.
I have not yet read this thread so shall start that now.
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In reply to Sir Rob,
I am VERY interested in your connection to "Lieutenant" John Downing, who married Catherine Browne.
Not to confuse you but the "Lieutenant" you mentioned actually attained the rank of Captain, and he was the son of Lt. John Downinge (1571-1629).
Capt. John married Catherine Browne, daughter of Sir Valentine Browne, FIRST Baronet of Molahiffe, County Kerry, by his second wife, Juliana McCarthy.
Sir Valentine Browne, 2nd Bt, was Catherine's older 1/2 brother, by the 1st Baronet's first wife, Lady Ellice FitzGerald, dau of Gerald FitzJames FitzGerald, 14th Earl of Desmond.
Capt. John and his wife, Catherine (nee Browne), had at least three sons, Maj. John, who was a Capt. when he joined in the Horse Guards of Charles II in 1660, Robert, who joined the Horse Guards in 1667, and Richard, who made a Will dated 5 Jun 1707.
Lt. John Downinge, son of Arthur Downinge of Lexham, Norfolk, was a soldier adventurer of some notoriety, and the first of his branch to go to Ireland.
I would love to hear about your branch and how you connect to Capt. John.
I have much to share and you may have found some of it in this thread, but I'm going to post an update as a reply to "Olden Times" based on research of the past several years.
Please stay tuned.
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In reply to "Olden Times" Paul,
I have a copy of Edwards book and can confirm/agree with your details found in the last chepter of the book.
On your Part 3 "Observations", I'm assuming you refer to some of the info I may have asserted in the earliest parts of this thread, although admittedly, I have not reviewed them recently. and some of it may have come form other replies.
Notwithstanding, it has been several years since these comments were made and I have conducted pretty thorough research in the interim.
Firstly, I'll agree that the "John" baptized in Chichester 1578 is certainly NOT the "John" we are interested in. With that, I'll copy a set of notes I've written that addresses much of the points of concern, to wit:
Apparently, this must be posted in "parts", so here goes: all Footnotes in last "Part"
Notes on Lt. John Downing
The English soldier-colonist and Government representative, John Downing, who possessed a commission of martial law granted
to him by the provincial governor, Lord President Sir Henry Brouncker, was "a prominent local resident" in the village of Clonshire,
County Limerick, when on a Sunday morning at the beginning of April 1606, two mentally handicapped jesters, or "idiot fools",
straggled into the village and caught the attention of Downing, who had them arrested and immediately hanged.
One of the jesters was employed by the regional magnate, Donough O'Brien, 4th Earl of Thomond, and the other by the County Clare Knight,
Sir John MacNamara. The hangings enraged Thomond, MacNamara and other Gaelic leaders, but also alarmed senior crown officials such as
Sir John Davies, the Solicitor General, and Sir Nicholas Walsh, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. Within days, Thomond had Downing
indicted of treason on charges of murder.[1]
In defense of Downing, it should be noted that the terms of his commission as County Provost Marshal required him to "stem the tide of lawlessness
by attacking the free movement of the poorest social groups". As well as being required to seek out and kill men who had borne arms
in the late war, he was also empowered to execute by martial law "masterless men" and "vagabonds", or wanderers of no fixed abode. [2]
It was Brouncker who got enraged at the trial's verdict (guilty of treason), based on the duties of his commission, and saved Downing from sentencing
when he stormed out of the court, thereby forcing the judges to suspend proceedings.[3]
The trial of John Downing took place at Limerick Crown Court on 12-13 April 1606, during which time his reputation for ruthlessness,
was brought up. He had served the crown as a Lieutenant in the English army at the close of the Nine Years War (1594-1603), and played a
prominent part in "mopping-up" operations after the Siege of Kinsale. On the 12th of June 1602, he had been sent to Dursey Island,
where he and his fellow commander defeated the rebels after a two-hour fight the next day (13 June), compelled them to surrender,
and led them away to the English camp where they were executed.
A more detailed description of the assault at Dursey Island, can be found in Pacata Hibernia, Vol II, pp.195-196.
Lt John Downing was sent to Dursey Island by Sir George Carew under the command of Capt. John Bostock in HMS Pinnace with four other boats and 160 men of foot.
Downing was described as "approaching middle age, probably a native of Suffolk and a one-time client of the Elizabethan Earl of Leicester".[4]
see Part 2
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Part 2
"While his kinsman Thomas Downing appeared as a new settler at Bearehaven in Co. Cork, Downing had stayed close to Barkeley at Limerick." [5]
Barkeley was Sir Francis Barkeley (Berkeley), John Downing's former Captain, then Constable of Limerick Castle, a kinsman of the Lord Lieutenant,
Earl of Devonshire, a war hero who possessed a large plantation estate at Askeaton (Askettin), County Limerick, and a seat on the newly revived Munster Council.
On the 20th October 1590, Barkeley was granted 7,000 acres of land that was confiscated from the Earl of Desmond and distributed among the "undertakers". [6]
John Downing continued to live in County Limerick until about 1617, farming the rectory of Ballintankard in the deanery of Kilmallock. [7]
After 1617, if not a little earlier, his interests had spread to neighboring counties. He had become a tenant of Sir Richard Boyle, Earl of Cork,
of the 'five quarters' of Ballysaggart in the Parish of Lismore, County Waterford, an estate comprising 1,000 plantation acres that straddled
the River Blackwater. [8]
By 1619, he was erecting a new 'stoan howse' at Ballysaggart [9]
At the time of his death, he was residing at Ballymanagh, County Tipperary, a townland near Clonmel, now known as Monkstown.
According to an abstract of his Will, he owned a middling but substantial farm there. In addition to the main part of his estate, that passed to
his eldest son and heir, Robert Downing, the Lieutenant was able to leave the land of Pobalfentarragh, 20 milch cowes, a longmare, the sorell geldings,
and 100 sheep to his wife, together with various silver utensils. For the record, Pobalfentarragh (alias Pobalnaskagh) was a townland in County Limerick
near Clonshire, sometimes also known as Finniterstown. Lastly, the Lieutenant also attended adequately to the material needs of his second son, Thomas,
to whom he bequethed 100 young stock, two yearlings, 100 sheep and a black mare. [10]
Lt John Downing died peacefully in his bed at Ballymanagh on 3rd June 1629 and was buried inside Lismore Cathedral a few days later.
see Part 3
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Part 3
UPDATE: in May of 2018, during my visit to Ireland, I toured the areas in Counties Tipperary and Waterford where Lt. John and his descendants lived.
I walked the south bank of the River Blackwater on lands adjacent to St. Mary's Abbey and came to the conclusion that Catherine Downinge (nee Travers), widow of Lt. John,
crossed the river just upstream of the abbey where two tributaries enter the river opposite each other, which would create a shallow ford by virtue of sediments
washed into the river on both sides. It was there, in the old "peppers orchard" that Tibbot Butler's men tracked her down and "stab'd & cutt her till she died" in 1642.
The sister historian at St. Mary's confirmed there was an old orchard behind (upstream of) the abbey.
I visited the Lismore Cathedral and bumped into the current "minister" of the church, who advised me that there was only one known person buried INSIDE the cathedral, and it was
NOT Lt. John or his son, Robert, the Coronet killed in 1642.
I walked into the pub at Ballysaggart, the only commercial business in the small village, and asked if anyone had known of any old ruins of what may have been Lt. John's Ballysaggart "stoan" house.
No one was aware of any, but we must remember the "estate" was 1,000 acres straddling both sides of the river. The terrain is steep, rising from the river to the village on the north bank.
The village is a good mile or more up the road from the R666 road that runs along the north side of the river, and we know that Catherine crossed the river from her house, which was being ransacked,
to the south bank, so we know the house was somewhere on the north side, probably closer to the river than the present day pub and village.
It would take some time and effort to search the hillside for ruins but I'd be willing to bet, there are at least foundation ruins there somewhere, and probably near the aforementioned tributary on the north side,
wherefrom Catherine would have taken a likely direct downhill approach.
We also toured the area around Pobalfentarragh (Finniterstown) tracking what would have been Lt. John's leasehold, and found that there is a village by the name of Kilfinny just 1/2 mile south of the present day
pub/restaurant. Hickson's Old Kerry Records claims Capt. John Downing of County Cork, or Waterford, married "Annabella Travers", dau of "Traverse" of Killfallyny, Co Kerry.
We know Mary Agnes Hickson was referring to Capt. John Downing, son of Lt. John, because she lists his two sons who served in the Horse Guards of Charles II.
Capt. John Downing (John the 3rd, later attained the rank of Maj.) joined the Horse Guards in 1660. His younger brother, Robert, joined in 1667.
We know Hickson had Capt. John's wife incorrect, because he married Catherine Browne, dau of Sir Valentine Browne, 1st Baronet of Molahiffe, County Kerry.
Catherine (NOT Annabella) Travers married Lt. John Downinge of Ballysaggart and Ballymanagh, and was Capt. John's mother. We know this because Thomas Downing,
Capt. John's younger brother, named her as his mother who was killed in the Butler raid of 1642 in depositions given 24 Nov 1652.
We know from the Edward's book, that Lt. John served in the household of Lord Robert Dudley when he was Governor at Flushing in the Low Countries, 1587-1588.
We also know Edwards places THE SAME "John Downing" in Ireland and "credits" him as a junior officer in the Dursey Island massacre of 1602.
And we know that Lt. John was the 2nd cousin twice-removed of Sir Richard Wingfield. His grandmother, Elizabeth Wingfield, was a 2nd cousin of Sir Richard.
She married Jefferry Downinge, Lt. John's grandfather and father of Arthur of Lexham, Norfolk.
The only "John Downinge" of East Anglia who would would have been of an age suitable to serve in Dudley's household by 1587, was (Lt.) John, born about 1571.
We know he was the first child and we know Arthur married Susan Calybutt in 1570. By 1587 Arthur had 12 children and had been granted arms (in 1576).
We know that Richard Wingfield served under Sir John Norris in the Low Countries during the same period (Lt.) John was there.
Sir John Norris led a 2,900 man expedition into Ulster in June 1595 to subdue Hugh O'Neill, who had been declared a traitor. Wingfield was one of his commanders.
We know that Lt. John served under Capt. Francis Barkeley (Berkeley) at Kinsale in 1602, and that Barkeley had been granted 7,250 acres at Askeaton in 1590,
under terms that he build over 50 freehold houses thereon. Askeaton is close enough for Pobalfenterragh to be encompassed within 7,250 acres.
We know that "George" Downinge was Associate Chief Tenant at Ballykelly, about 12 miles northeast of Derry City in County Londonderry, Northern Ireland, by 1619.
We have ONE source that names George as a son of Lt. John, but that source is a private publication that has not been corroborated.
Lt. John names THREE sons in his 1629 Will, Robert, his heir who was to inherit "Fever'agh" (Pobalfenterragh), John, and Thomas, as well as ONE daughter, Ales,
presumably a minor who was to have her marriage approved by Robert.
see Part 4
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Part 4
PUTTING PIECES TOGETHER, based on the updated information and subsequent research:
It is my theory that -
- it is likely Dudley would have known of Arthur and Arthur would surely have been agreeable to sending John off to serve such an influential host
- it is quite possible that Lt. John went to Ireland with Wingfield and served directly under Barkeley during the campaign into Ulster.
- it is quite possible Barkeley offered a freehold to Lt. John after the Ulster expedition, which placed him at Pobalfenterragh in 1595.
- Kilfinny is quite similar in sound and spelling to the town of "Killfallyny", the home of "Traverse" as described by Hickson, and it is 1/2 mile from Pobalfenterragh.
I believe Lt. John met ALL of those presumptions and married a local girl, Catherine Travers of Kilfinny, County Limerick, by about 1596, and had by her,
two sons, Robert (b. 1597) and George (b. 1598) before he went off to war, under Barkeley, against the rebels and their Spanish allies at Kinsale in 1601.
- Although Lt. John does not name George in his Will, he also omitted his daughter Katherin, who was then married and cared for by her husband Edward Croker.
Holding faith in the ONE family source, we stay with the belief that George was omitted from the Will because Lt. John gave him the 3,000 acres at Ballykelly as his inheritance
shortly before the Fishmonger's took control of it and offered him the Associate Chief Tenant's position as compensation. This is based on the unproved assumption that
Lt. John was offered land at Ballykelly in lieu of pay for his services to the crown during the O'Doherty Rebellion of 1608, under the command of Sir Richard Wingfield.
Lt. John simply preferred Munster to Ulster and gave those lands to his second son, then omitted him in the Will.
[1] Regions and Rulers in Ireland, 1100-1650, David Edwards Ed., Four Courts Press, © 2004, p.237
[2] Ibid., p.244 ; from (CSPI) Calendar of the State Papers, Relating to Ireland: 1603-1606, p.470
[3] Ibid., p.256
[4] Ibid., pp. 238-239
In footnote 7 on page 238, it says, "Downing appears in the records as a servant of Leicester in 1587, when he served in the Earl's
household at Flushing, where Leicester was stationed as Governor of the United Provinces. He accompanied Leicester home to England in December 1587:
S. Adams (ed.), Household Accounts and Disbursement Books of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, 1558-61, 1584-6 (Camden Soc., 5th series, 6,
London 1995), 438, 441. The Downings were middling Suffolk gentry, and early in the seventeenth century several of their number became involved in
English colonisation projects in Ireland and the New World: R. Thompson, Mobility and Migration: East Anglican Founders of New England, 1629-40
(Amherst MA 1994), 37,; J.J. Muskett, Suffolk Manorial Families (Ipswich 1900), i, 97. A junior member of the line called 'John Downing, gentleman',
clearly a younger son, was included on a commission of escheat for Suffolk in 1584: PRO, C66/1229, m.3d."
The following is from Wikipedia: The Siege of Sluis (1587) - 12 Jun to 4 Aug
Here I will note that Flushing where Robert Dudley was stationed is actually 'Vlissingen', Netherlands, on the north side of the mouth of the
River Scheldt, downstream from Antwerp. On 12 June 1587, Don Alexander Farnese, Duke of Parma, and Commander-in-Chief of the Army of Flanders,
laid siege to the strategic deep-water port of Sluis, defended by English and Dutch troops under Sir Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, and Governor-General
of the United Provinces. Sluis is located on the border between the Netherlands and Belgium, south of the River Scheldt and about 13 miles southwest
of Flushing (Vlissingen). Flushing could be reached by sailing down the River Orwell from Ipswich and crossing the Channel in a southeasterly direction.
[5] Ibid., p. 240 ; from J. Appleby (ed.), Calendar of Material Relating to Ireland in the High Court of Admiralty Examinations, 1536-1641
(IMC, Dublin 1992), 297
[6] Sir Francis Berkeley of Askeaton, by Thomas Johnson Westropp, 11 March 1902, p. 125
www.limerickcity.ie/media/046%20vol%202.6%20Berkeley%20Askeaton.pdf
[7] Regions and Rulers in Ireland, 1100-1650, David Edwards Ed., Four Courts Press, © 2004, p.261
Downing was still in Limerick in June 1617: Esmond to Boyle, 13 June 1617 (Chatsworth House, Lismore MSS, Vol 8).
A summary of this letter can be consulted in the Calendar of Devonshire (Chatsworth) MSS: Lismore Papers, 222, held in the National Register of Archives
in London (NRA 20594).
[8] Ibid., p.261
If the lease at Ballysaggart renewed by his son, Robert, in 1635, was a 21 year lease, it's possible John Downing first went to Waterford in 1614.
(NLI, MS 6142, fol. 27)
for the Blackwater reference see: NLI, MS 6242, fol. 89; Civil Survey, vi: Co. Waterford, 5
[9] Lismore Papers (1st series), i, Grosart (ed.), p. 224
[10] Regions and Rulers in Ireland, 1100-1650, David Edwards Ed., Four Courts Press, © 2004, p.261
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In reply to dukewm
Thanks for such a quick response, unexpected as this thread had gone quiet.
I have leaned much from this thread and your latest posts contain plenty for me to absorb.
As for my link to the Downings, I struggled for years to even go back the first few generations from here in Ballinamult to Lismore but DNA tests and Ancestry have confirmed those links and beyond.
I came across a pedigree for Rev. Pierce William Drew on other peoples ancestry trees that traced back to Edward I through the Downings but didn't take it too seriously at the time as we hadn't done the DNA tests yet.
My version of this pedigree:
Edward I Plantagenet King 1239-1307
23rd great-grandfather
Elizabeth of Rhuddlan Countess consort of Holland 1282-1316 - Daughter of Edward I Plantagenet King
Eleanor de Bohun Countess of Ormonde 1304-1363 - Daughter of Elizabeth of Rhuddlan Countess consort of Holland
James Butler 2nd Earl of Ormond 1331-1382 - Son of Eleanor de Bohun Countess of Ormonde
James Butler 3rd Earl of Ormond 1359-1405 - Son of James Butler 2nd Earl of Ormond
Richard Butler Sir of Polestown 1395-1443 - Son of James Butler 3rd Earl of Ormond
Edmund MacRichard Butler Sir of Polestown 1420-1464 - Son of Richard Butler Sir of Polestown
James Butler Sir of Polestown -1487 - Son of Edmund MacRichard Butler Sir of Polestown
Piers Butler 8th Earl of Ormond 1467-1539 - Son of James Butler Sir of Polestown
Helen Butler -1597 - Daughter of Piers Butler 8th Earl of Ormond
Conor Groibleach (Long Nailed) O'Brien 3rd Earl of Thomond 1535-1591 - Son of Helen Butler
Donough O'Brien 4th Earl of Thomond and Baron of Ibrickan 1550-1624 - Son of Conor Groibleach (Long Nailed) O'Brien 3rd Earl of Thomond
Margaret O'Brien Lady - Daughter of Donough O'Brien 4th Earl of Thomond and Baron of Ibrickan
Julia McCarthy 1575-1633 - Daughter of Margaret O'Brien Lady
Catherine Browne BEFORE 1627- - Daughter of Julia McCarthy
John Downing Maj. 1645-1692 - Son of Catherine Browne
Martha Downing 1682-1755 - Daughter of John Downing Maj.
William Garde Esq 1702-1791 - Son of Martha Downing
John Garde -1809 - Son of William Garde Esq
William Garde 1785-1845 - Son of John Garde
Mary Garde 1815-1900 - Daughter of William Garde
Henry Edward Fitzgerald 1855-1921 - Son of Mary Garde
Catherine (Kitty) Miller 1901-1988 - Daughter of Henry Edward Fitzgerald
William Tobin 1925-1950 - Son of Catherine (Kitty) Miller
PRIVATE - Daughter of William Tobin
Myself - Robert Thomas Corrigan
We have confirmed back to William Garde Esq (my 6th great-grandfather)
BIRTH 1702 • of Broomfield and Ballinacurra, Ireland
DEATH 23 MAY 1791 • Buried at Cloyne, Ireland
Son of Martha Downing (youngest daughter? of Maj. John Downing 1645-1692)
1682–1755
BIRTH 1682 • Broomfield, Monaghan, Ireland
DEATH MAR 1755 • Cork, Cork, Ireland
Via DNA matches shared by at least 7 people so far.
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One of the jesters was employed by the regional magnate, Donough O'Brien, 4th Earl of Thomond, and the other by the County Clare Knight,
Sir John MacNamara. The hangings enraged Thomond, MacNamara and other Gaelic leaders, but also alarmed senior crown officials such as
Sir John Davies, the Solicitor General, and Sir Nicholas Walsh, Chief Justice of the Common Pleas. Within days, Thomond had Downing indicted of treason on charges of murder.
This part jumped out at me because, if correct, Lt. John Downings son later married Donough O'Briens great granddaughter Catherine Brown:
Donough O'Brien 4th Earl of Thomond and Baron of Ibrickan 1550-1624 (my 12th great-grandfather and descendant of Brian Boru)
Margaret O'Brien Lady
Daughter of Donough O'Brien 4th Earl of Thomond and Baron of Ibrickan
Julia McCarthy 1575-1633
Daughter of Margaret O'Brien Lady
Catherine Browne 1627-
Daughter of Julia McCarthy
If true it would make a nice little addition to the story.
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Part 3
UPDATE: in May of 2018, during my visit to Ireland, I toured the areas in Counties Tipperary and Waterford where Lt. John and his descendants lived.
I walked the south bank of the River Blackwater on lands adjacent to St. Mary's Abbey and came to the conclusion that Catherine Downinge (nee Travers), widow of Lt. John,
crossed the river just upstream of the abbey where two tributaries enter the river opposite each other, which would create a shallow ford by virtue of sediments
washed into the river on both sides. It was there, in the old "peppers orchard" that Tibbot Butler's men tracked her down and "stab'd & cutt her till she died" in 1642.
The sister historian at St. Mary's confirmed there was an old orchard behind (upstream of) the abbey.
We live a 40 minute drive from here (other side of Lismore) and once this 5km lockdown is over and the weather improves I hope to poke around this and many other locations.
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Hello Rob/Robert ? , as you prefer:
I hope and pray for posts from potential cousins all the time, and therein lies the beauty of such old, seemingly dormant RootsChat threads.
Thank you so much for your pedigree, which has several generations of commonality to my tree, but no common direct ancestors. I have an Ancestry DNA kit, but not sure we would find any connection, because my (supposed) 10th great grandfather was Lt. John Downinge (1571-1629), father of Capt. John who married Catherine Browne. So it was a different son of Lt. John who would be my 9th great grandfather, and your branch goes up through the McCarthy line to Edward I.
HOWEVER, we both intersect again at Elizabeth of Rhuddlan through different branches, my line going up through Eleanor de Bohun's younger brother, William (1312-1360).
So perhaps we should compare our DNA results.
On another note, I have significantly differing dates on some of the names in your pedigree, and I'm not challenging anything you have, but I'd like to make sure whether mine are correct or not.
The first thing I noticed was that you have Catherine Browne's year of birth as 1627, and her mother Julia (Juliana) McCarthy as born 1575, which would make Julia about 52 years old when Catherine was born. Not unheard of, but questionable. To look at that deeper, I have an estimated birth year of Capt. John, who married Catherine, as 1608-1610. It's not that Capt. John could not have married a much younger woman, but I'm pretty sure their eldest son, Maj. John, was born much sooner than 1645, because he joined the Horse Guards in 1660. I have a birth year for Maj. John as 1634, which would make him about 26 years old when he joined the Horse Guards. That date (1634) is corroborated by Paul (see Olden Times Reply # 50 in this thread), who stated that Maj. John died on 1 Oct 1691, aged 57 years. In the very next sentence, Paul claims that Aphra (nee Maunsell) who married Maj. John, "died in 1708 aged 68", which would place her birth year as about 1640 and it's unlikely that Maj. John would have married a woman 5 years older than himself.
Secondly, I note that you have confirmed dates for Martha as born 1682 at Broomfield, County Monaghan, and died March 1755 at Cork, County Cork. That is quite helpful, in that now I must find a way to work her birth year into synchronicity with the dates I have for her older brother Rev'd Richard Downing, whom I have as baptized 1665. I have no birth years for their other siblings.
Nor am I certain of Rev'd Richard's birth year but keeping in mind, their father, Maj. John was born in 1634, I thought it plausible for his children to have been born in the 1660's.
The children I have for Maj. John and his wife, Aphra (b. c.1640), are Rev'd Richard, Martha, Thomas, and Frances. I do not know the birth order, and the only dates I have for any of them other than Richard, is that Frances married in 1697. It is certainly possible that Martha was born in 1682, when her mother was about 42 years old. It would seem that Frances was an OLDER sister and Martha was perhaps the youngest child.
As for my own connection to this branch, I must disclose that I have a broken link with my 4th great grandfather, William Downing, who has not been confirmed by any official records but several family records claim he was from County Londonderry in Northern Ireland. We have ONE source that was published for private circulation, that claims the County Derry branch was headed by 'George' Downinge of Ballykelly, who was claimed to be the 2nd son of Lt. John. Yet George was not mentioned in Lt. John's 1629 Will. I developed a tree of the descendants of Lt. John in an effort to trace all the branches that could be potential ancestors, although I am fairly certain of my Ulster roots. The connection to Lt. John, through 'George', is admittedly "thin", BUT, that family history was published with the help of a professional genealogist BEFORE the 1922 fire at the Four Courts Building in Dublin, which destroyed many Irish records, so we have no good reason to dismiss those findings.
Although I have the Ancestry DNA kit results, which I DID submit to GedMatch, I have done NO further investigation into matching anyone other than known close cousins. It may be a long shot if our only common ancestor is Elizabeth of Rhuddlan, but it may be worth comparing.
Any suggestions ?
All I can think of is that I could search for your name in my long list of possible distant cousins.
Or is there an easier way ?
thanks, Rick
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In reply to Sir Rob's Reply # 60,
YES, that is correct, Donogh O'Brien (in 1606) indicted the father of the man who would later marry one of his great granddaughters (Catherine). I noticed that when I was piecing it together.
And, to reiterate, Catherine Browne was certainly born much sooner than 1627, because her son, Maj. John was certainly born about 1634. So I would guess she married Capt. John about 1632 or 1633.
I believe she was probably born about 1610, give or take 2 years or so.
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In reply to Sir Rob's Reply # 60,
And, to reiterate, Catherine Browne was certainly born much sooner than 1627, because her son, Maj. John was certainly born about 1634. So I would guess she married Capt. John about 1632 or 1633.
I believe she was probably born about 1610, give or take 2 years or so.
As far as challenging the info I have I welcome it as I often come across mistakes, some major ones.
Catherine Browne in my tree is listed with :BIRTH BEF. 1627
But when copying this over here it appears to claim she was born in 1627 specifically.
Similarly, I had Maj. John Downing as being born "before 1645" in my tree and not during.
Maybe I should add those important details to the previous post.
I have various notes attached to names along the lines of "before" "after" "not confirmed" etc, forever a work in progress. I will go over your last post and check some more things out.
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my (supposed) 10th great grandfather was Lt. John Downinge (1571-1629), father of Capt. John who married Catherine Browne.
Surely, if Lt. John Downinge (1571-1629) is your 10th great grandfather and at the same time my 10th great grandfather that would be our first common ancestor in this line.
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A cut n paste from my tree for the children of Maj. John Downing:
I don't have my references right now, will try to find asap.
Richard William Downing Rev
1665–1708
Elizabeth Downing
1666–
Elizabeth Downing
1667–
Robert Downing
1669–
Thomas Downing
1669–
Catherine Downing
1671–
Sara Downing
1673–
Frances Downing
1675–
Maria Downing
1676–
Susanna Downing
1678–
Rachel Downing
1680–
Martha Downing
1682–1755
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In reply to Sir Rob’s Reply # 65,
Yes, I must have had a “senior moment”. Of course Lt. John would be our most recent common ancestor, and that makes us 11th cousins IF, in fact, my line can be corroborated by another independent source.
And thank you for the children of Maj. John and Aphra Mausell. I only had 4 of them and not much in terms of dates.
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Hello,
The Reverend Pierce William Drew had a keen interest in his family history and contributed genealogy articles/family trees to various publications the 1850s. “The Royal Families of England, Scotland, and Wales” Volume 1, by J B Burke published 1851 contains a pedigree of the Rev. Pierce William Drew (Pedigree 14). I suspect that Rev. Drew submitted this pedigree to Burke.
The Rev Drew claimed that John Downing had married Catherine Browne and that she was the daughter of Sir Valentine Browne (1st Baronet of Mohaliffe and Ross) by his second wife Juliana McCarthy. Drew claimed direct descent from Edward I through ancestor Sheely/Shelly/Sheila (otherwise known as Julia/Juliana/Julian) McCarthy.
However, there is problem with Drew’s claim. There are documentary sources that say that Catherine Browne was a daughter by Sir Valentine’s first wife Ellis/Ellice/Elizabeth Fitzgerald rather than his second wife.
Evidence of Ellis being Catherine’s mother can be found in:
a. Sir Valentine Browne’s (1st Baronet) funeral certificate from 1633 held in the Pockocke Collection in the British Library (Add MS 4820, volume 10, folio 32 recto). The funeral certificate says:
“Sr Valentine Browne of Mollahoff in the County of Kerry Baronett deceased 7th 7br 1633 he had to his first wife Elizabeth daughter of Gerratt Earle of Desmond (that was atainted) by whom he had issue, Sr Valentine Browne Baronett, James Browne, Nicholas Browne, Ellenor, Mary and Katherin Browne, his second wife was Shelly Daughr of the Right Honble Sr Charles McCarty Knt visc Carty of Muscree by whom he left issue Thomas Browne, Margarett and Mabel Browne he was buried in the Church of Killarny.”
b. “The Kenmare Manuscripts” by MacLysaght published in 1942. This publication contains several pedigree charts of the Browne family based on original documents held in the PRONI. On page 474 are pedigree charts showing the 5 youngest of the 6 children of Sir Valentine Browne by his first wife and all his children by his second wife. Catherine is shown as his third daughter and the youngest child by his first wife.
Rev. Drew further claims that this same Catherine Browne married John Downing. However, there is also a problem with that claim. The problem is that several publications state that Sir Valentine’s daughter Catherine married Sir Terence/Turlough Magrath 2nd Baronet of Allevollan, Co. Tipperary. Those publications are:
a. Lodge’s “The Peerage of Ireland” volume 7 page 55 (as revised and enlarged by Archdall in 1789).
b. “Complete Baronetage”, Volume 2 (1625-1649) by G. E Cockayne, published 1902 - pages 259-260.
c. The Browne family pedigrees published in 1942 in “The Kenmare Manuscripts” on page 474.
I haven’t discovered anyone before Rev. Drew making the claim about the Catherine Browne/John Downing marriage or claiming that Catherine’s parents were Sir Valentine Browne (1st Bart) and Julia/Juliana/Julian McCarthy. Circa 1905 Colonel James Grove White in his “Historical and Topographical Notes” Book 3 page 44 says his (Grove White’s) ancestor John Downing married ”Catherine, dau of --- Browne, Esq of Mollahiffe”. Significantly, he does give a first name for Catherine’s father.
This begs a question. If Sir Valentine Browne’s daughter Catherine married Sir T Magrath, Bart then Rev. Drew has incorrectly identified the person who became John Downing’s wife. Is there another woman called Catherine Browne who could have become John’s wife? I have not yet discovered any source earlier than the pedigree in “The Royal Families of England, Scotland, and Wales” that says John’s wife was called Catherine Browne. It raises the possibility that John’s wife might not have even been called Catherine Browne.
In addition, the Rev. Drew’s claim that he himself had a direct link to Edward I via Julia/Juliana/Julian McCarthy would be erroneous if his ancestor was Ellis FitzGerald rather than Julia/Juliana/Julian McCarthy.
I have not been actively researching the Drew and Downing families since my posts in 2017 but I remembered from my prior searches that there was documentary evidence that contradicted Rev. Drew's identity of Catherine Browne. The recent new posts caused me to dust off my notes to make sure that this new post of mine was an accurate summary of what I had discovered earlier.
In my previous post in 2017 (reply #50) I quoted as a reference the Lismore Papers , Series 1, Volume 4, page 256 when I was discussing Thomas Downing. That reference should have been Series 2, Volume 4, page 256. Sorry for the confusion caused.
Paul
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Thanks Paul (Olden Times) I definitely want an accurate tree so for now at least I've scrapped the Browne and up section of my tree.
For general information, I do share a distant DNA match with dukewm and it seems the shared ancestor is likely from the first generation of Downing to come to Ireland.
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Thanks Paul (Olden Times) I definitely want an accurate tree so for now at least I've scrapped the Browne and up section of my tree.
For general information, I do share a distant DNA match with dukewm and it seems the shared ancestor is likely from the first generation of Downing to come to Ireland.
Oh WOW Sir Rob,
Can you tell me anything about what you found with the "distant" DNA match ?
That's HUGE for me because we have just one source that links my line as far back as the aforementioned Lt. John Downinge of Ballymanagh, County Tipperary (b. c.1571-1629).
I haven't explored the DNA "theater" at all, and have not found any matches that have a tree that goes that far back.
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Oh right, I thought you already knew because we traded gedmatch Kit numbers.
To be fair, when doing the comparison, you need to reduce the cM number to get our matches but you did indeed match myself and my mother.
To do this I went to the "GEDmatch® Autosomal One-to-one Comparison - V1.0"
Reduced the cM: "Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM"
I will send you my mothers kit number also.
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Ahhh, yes. Thank you Rob. I just found my note with your GEDmatch Kit No and went to the GEDmatch site to punch it in as you outlined.
Like I said, I haven't explored the DNA angle much. I guess the boxed details above Chromosomes 2, 7, 10, etc. and the little summary at the bottom indicate you and I have some significant matches.
I'd like to compare some data through a PM thread if you are willing.
As a result of my own trees being PARTIALLY filled in with some unverified connections, I can't actually publish them, but I've built various extensive trees that are pieced together from bits of evidence.
I have a tree headed by Jefferry Downinge of Belchamp St Paul, Essex, which asserts that his eldest grandchild is Lt. John Downinge (a theory based on several bits of circumstantial evidence). John's downline is partially complete. The Catherine Browne data outlined in the Olden Times Reply seems to be in question. Regardless of all that, looking back at your Reply # 59, I see that you have established your tree running back through Martha Downing, Maj. John Downing, Catherine Browne, and then it branches off through her mother, Julia McCarthy. Of course going through her husband, Capt. John, you can also claim descent from Lt. John as your 10th great grandfather, making you and I 11th cousins, assuming I can prove my link to Lt. John.
THEREFORE, your DNA match, although by relatively few SNPs, helps to confirm my connection.
I've noticed that Ancestry only lists down to POTENTIAL 8th cousins, so assuming you and I ARE 11th cousins, the few SNP matches makes good sense.
I see while I was reviewing this, you've posted more info about your tree and your mother's kit, which I will look at. Thanks so much.
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Very much willing, PM away!
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Hello,
The Reverend Pierce William Drew had a keen interest in his family history and contributed genealogy articles/family trees to various publications the 1850s. “The Royal Families of England, Scotland, and Wales” Volume 1, by J B Burke published 1851 contains a pedigree of the Rev. Pierce William Drew (Pedigree 14). I suspect that Rev. Drew submitted this pedigree to Burke.
The Rev Drew claimed that John Downing had married Catherine Browne and that she was the daughter of Sir Valentine Browne (1st Baronet of Mohaliffe and Ross) by his second wife Juliana McCarthy. Drew claimed direct descent from Edward I through ancestor Sheely/Shelly/Sheila (otherwise known as Julia/Juliana/Julian) McCarthy.
However, there is problem with Drew’s claim. There are documentary sources that say that Catherine Browne was a daughter by Sir Valentine’s first wife Ellis/Ellice/Elizabeth Fitzgerald rather than his second wife.
Paul
Hello Paul,
Re: your Reply # 68, partially copied above
It looks like your documented evidence that Catherine was the daughter of Sir Valentine's first wife, is well-sourced and I have no reason to question, or challenge, your findings. I believe Rob said he was setting the Browne tree aside and I'll probably edit mine as well.
Thank you for digging up and reporting your info.
As you say, it was likely Rev'd Drew was driven to show a link to Edward I, which was apparently a rather common endeavor "back in the day" for families to bolster their social status.
Rob has compared his GEDmatch DNA kit with mine and it seems we are 11th cousins, with Lt. John Downinge of Ballymanagh being our most recent common ancestor. He has posted his pedigree in this thread (Reply # 59) which is proven and verified back to his 6th great grandfather, the great grandson of Capt. John Downing and the disputed Catherine Browne. At that point Rob follows Catherine's tree, but if we follow Capt. John's side, we see that he was the son of Lt. John aforementioned.
If you go back and review my 5 part series that begins on Reply # 54 of this thread, you will see that I have amassed a rather extensive set of notes on the life of Lt. John. Although some of it is UNVERIFIED, the full body of circumstantial evidence is too voluminous to be brushed off as coincidental. Ironically, Lt. John can also claim direct descent from Edward I, through his father and paternal grandmother, Elizabeth Wingfield.
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Hi all,
Another Downing descendant here. There are many of us from the Revd Richard and his wife Aphra nee Maunsell, then down through the Lloyd's of Tipperary.
I have my Gedmatch number if you'd like, and those of other relatives on that line, if you wanted to compare. The link will be a long, long way back however I'm often astonished to see old family connections in the paper trail confirmed by DNA in the various DNA sites. Some DNA seems have 'stuck' for a long time, down the ages.
Very interesting to read of all your research (Rob, Rick and Paul, and others) and I didn't know that Catherine (widow Downing) was hacked to death by rebels. How very gruesome. She would be my 9x Great-grandmother.
Best wishes, Dee
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Hello Dee,
Always great to hear from another cousin.
My GEDmatch DNA Kit No. is ZK6098473 for your comparison.
Rob and I share 53 fully identical SNPs across 6 segments, which I hear is pretty significant for 11th cousins. I'm sure he won't mind sharing his Kit No. with you, but I'll leave that up tp him.
If you find that my DNA matches yours to some degree, please let me know.
By the way, I've been to the area where Catherine was murdered and almost certainly pinpointed the location where she likely forded the River Blackwater, just upstream from St. Mary's Abbey.
The "old pepper's orchard" was directly behind the abbey. She was my 10th great grandmother.
respectfully,
Rick
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Hello Rick,
Thanks for your Gedmatch number. You match my Mum and some other relatives, though I had to drop down to 3cM in the one-to-one comparison.
The match is on chroms 1, 8, 15, 21 with Mum; 1, 2, 5, 9, 12, 14, 21 with a cousin; 1, 4, 13, 15 with another cousin; 1, 8, 9, 15, 16 another cousin; 8, 9, 13, 16, 19 with yet another.
We all descend from Rev Richard Downing (a long time ago :)
I also did the 'people who match two kits', but that threw up different names in each set, so I won't pursue that avenue.
Regards, Dee
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Hi Dee,
Well, those matched segments look pretty convincing to me.
Would you mind sending me the GEDmatch Kit No. of at least the cousin who matches the 7 segments, and his/her name ?
Do you and all those cousins reside in County Tipperary ?
Thanks for checking,
Rick
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Hi Dee,
I meant to say you could PM me if you wish to keep GEDmatch No. confidential.
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Hi Rick,
Happy to help. How do I send you a private message?
Cheers, Dee
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Hello Dee,
That’s a good question.
I don’t see any link to initiate a PM, although I know I’ve done it before.
All I can think of is to post my email address in this thread, but I think that is discouraged.
I’ll have to investigate further and get back to you.
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I have Downing relatives from Derry and now I'm researching the Colwell family. I would like to know more about Colwell Downing.
I'm actually researching Capt. John H. Dilworth who immigrated from Ulster to Delaware, British America before the Revolution (ca. 1773-4). He named one of his sons James Colwell Dilworth. I am exploring the possibility that his use of Colwell as a middle name could be because his mother or grandmother was a Colwell. Does anyone have any information on the Colwell family in Ulster for the 1700-1750 period?
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Let me get back to you on COLWELL.
Getting ready to shove off for the weekend but this caught my eye.
My 4th great grandfather supposedly married a Jane Colwell. Her first husband was (reportedly) William Downing, father of my 3rd great grandfather, who may have died in 1803, leaving a widow and two young sons. She almost certainly moved near Moneymore to be closer to family and remarried Felix Devlin, who is listed in Slater’s Directory of 1846 as a “turner in wood” of Coagh. My 3rd great grandfather’s older brother is buried just outside town at St. Luke’s.
We have been searching for her roots for over 20 years. County Derry only has a few similar spellings found from online records, without considering CALDWELL.
The COLWELL spelling is rare is 18th century lists, so it’s very intriguing to hear you mention it.
Stay tuned and let me know in the meantime if you have any further info on the Colwell surname.
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Thank you. I have been doing Dilworth research for several years. I've just begun the Colwell research. My 4th great grandmother was Elizabeth Sharon Downing 1798-1882. I have done quite a lot of research on her and have concluded that she is not a descendant of Adam Downing (at least not direct). There evidently were two Downing families in Derry. I would have to look back at my rootschat Downing communication to recall what I discovered. She married Robert Henry from Loughgiel, Co. Tyrone in 1820. They immediately immigrated to America through South Carolina to Alabama and finally to Texas.
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dukewm,
It seems we have communicated previously, maybe two years ago on the All things Downing thread. My Sharon Elizabeth descends from Stafford Downing of Drennan I believe. After she and her husband arrived in America, they named one of their sons Stafford and this name continued to be used in the family for a while. I never absolutely identified who her parents were but all the evidence points in this direction.
Cheers
Carson
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I've just been reading about these Downings. Whether I'm any relation rather depends on whether one of them married a Travers (or Traverse). Unfortunately, there seems to be a lot of confusion about the surnames of the Downing wives. Brown or Travers? Assertions have been made, but no proof advanced. In my tree, I have followed Capt Blennerhassett and tentatively entered the name of Annabella Travers(e) as Capt John Downing's wife. Annabella was the granddaughter of the Annabella Brown who married Thomas Spring (d. 1597). The father of Annabella Brown was John Brown who was 'Master of Awney' in Co Limerick - nothing to do with the other Browns mentioned. Still Browns and Travers - just not the same ones! Can anyone tell me that I'm wrong?
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In response to Stricpa, regarding the Downing/Travers/Brown relations:
Your connections may be fairly accurate and I am anxious to discuss further because the names you reference are in my own tree.
Here is what I have, some of which is speculative based on what I have gleaned from various clues. My data could be flawed but I believe it to be at least partially true.
I will start with the name Lt. John Downing of Ballymanagh, County Tipperary (his residence when he died on 3 Jun 1629.
It is my THEORY that he married Catherine Travers of Kilfinny, County Limerick because he was living in a village named Pobalfentarragh, County Limerick, while serving as Provost Marshal, when he was put on trial for the murder of two vagabonds in 1606. It makes sense that his commander, Capt. Francis Berkeley, may have awarded him some land there, part of his vast 7,250 acre estate at Askeaton, for his service during the 1595 Ulster campaign.
Pobalfentarragh is known today as Finnerterstown, and is just 1 mile north of Kilfinny. It’s not hard to imagine those two bumped into each other in such a small rural area.
We do not have verified confirmation of Catherine’s maiden name, but Catherine was certainly the name of Lt. John’s wife as she is named in a 1642 deposition describing her murder by Irish rebels on the south bank of the River Blackwater, upstream from Lismore, when her house was raided, causing her to briefly escape.
I tentatively have her placed as the daughter of (?) Travers and Susanna Spring, 3rd daughter of Capt. Thomas Spring of Kilcolman, County Kerry.
I have Capt. Thomas Spring as the eldest son of Robert Spring, and Thomas as married to Annabelle(a) Brown, eldest daughter of John Brown, Master of Awney, County Limerick.
I have Capt. John Downing, of Ballymanagh, County Tipperary, son of Lt. John by his wife Catherine, as married to Catherine Brown, daughter of 1st Sir Valentine Browne of Molahiffe, County Kerry.
As you can see, some of these names are common to the data we both have, although with differing relations.
Please reply as it seems we need to discuss further. Perhaps we can nail down something verified.
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Thanks for your very interesting reply. I am travelling at the moment but will get back to you over the weekend.
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Hi. Now back from my travels.
Is there any evidence at all for Catherine's maiden name being Travers? Travers is one of the main branches in my tree but I can't see any sign of a Catherine who married a Downing. She is more likely to have been a Brown(e), but not the daughter of Sir Valentine, whose own daughter Catherine appears to have married someone else. She could, I suppose, have been the daughter of a brother or a cousin of his or she might have been related to another Brown(e) family entirely, though I'm not sure what exactly the evidence is for her being a Brown(e) anyway.
Given that the Blennerhassett Pedigree mentions a Travers as marrying Susannah Spring, and Susannah being the daughter of Thomas Spring and Annabella Brown, it is more than likely that one of their daughters should be called Annabella. And so Annabella Spring marries a Travers, who I believe to be Alexander Travers, a former Ensign and sometime Sheriff of Co Kerry, who is also mentioned by the Earl of Cork in the Lismore Papers. Blennerhassett also states that Alexander was an 'uncle or cousin german' to Sir Robert Travers (my 8th great grandfather) which, if true, would cement my relationship to the Downings who, I have just remembered, are cousins of mine anyway through the Springs.
I'm sure there is more to say on this, but I will wind it up here for now.
Paul S.
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Hello again Paul,
Re: Reply of Aug 9, 2025
The data I have is an UNverified “work-in-progress” regarding these Travers(e)/Spring/Brown(e) relationships, and several sources seem to be partially correct, conflicting, or erroneous.
However, some of the connections are likely accurate. It’s quite complicated.
The Downing family connection to Travers is based on info sourced from Mary Agnes Hickson’s “Selections from Old Kerry Records: Historical and Genealogical: with Introductory Memoir Notes and Appendix”, 1872, Watson & Hazell.
In that reference, Hickson claims Annabella Brown, eldest dau. of John Brown and Katherine O’Ryan, on the death of her 1st husband, William Apsley, married secondly, Capt. Thomas Spring . . . and had issue two sons and five daughters, the third of which was Susanna. She then states that Susanna, 3rd dau. of Capt. Thomas Spring and Annabella Brown, married “Traverse of Killfallyny, Co. Kerry and had issue nine sons and two daughters.
She further states that “Annabella the elder dau. of Traverse and Susanna Spring married Capt. John Downing in the County Cork and Waterford and had issue two sons, viz., Robert Downing a Major in Holland, and John Downing a Captain in King Charles the seconds Guards.
I know for a FACT that Capt. John Downing, estimated DOB c.1608, apparently married Catherine BROWN (not a dau. of Sir Valentine, but another branch), and had by her two sons, Maj. John, and Maj. Robert, who BOTH joined the Horse Guards of King Charles, in 1660 and 1667 respectively.
Capt. John swore in a Deposition dated 30 Jun 1642, that he had suffered unrecoverable debts owed by Edward Spring and Walter Travers, apparent kinsmen.
On Capt. Thomas Spring, it has been determined by examination of his paternal ancestry that was certainly born in 1519 and would have been about 61 years old when he married the widow Annabella Apsley (nee Brown), who was about 30 years younger. One of their aforementioned two sons, was Walter Spring, and Susanna, the 3rd dau. were both born “after 1580” according to an UNverified source, which conflicts with the estimated birth year of her (SUPPOSED) daughter, Catherine (Travers), who I have as born c.1578.
Getting back to Travers as the suspected husband of Susanna Spring, and father of Catherine, remember that Hickson said Travers was of Killfallyny, a nonexistent place name today. Her forename was Catherine, not Annabella, and she married Lt. John Downing, not his son Capt. John.
Also, it’s plausible that “Killfallyny” may have been misinterpreted to refer to a place named Kilfinny, Co. Limerick, which is just 1.1 miles south of the present-day village of Finniterstown, where Lt. John was almost certainly granted a freehold by his former Commander, Capt. Sir Francis Berkeley of Askeaton. Finniterstown was then known as Pobalfentarragh, an estate inherited by Lt. John’s eldest son, Robert, so named in his Will, dated 3 Jun 1629.
So, as you can see, these surnames are certainly linked, and circumstantial evidence from various sources suggest connections. The data DOES need further proof though before definitive conclusions can be “etched in stone”.
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I agree with you that it is complicated. I think I'll just start at the beginning of your latest and work my way through it if I can.
From the Travers side, I still find Hickson/Blennerhassett persuasive. Annabella Browne married Capt Thomas Spring in 1583, almost immediately after the death of her first husband, which means that Susanna, their third daughter, could not have been born much before 1587. Susanna married a Travers, who I believe to have been Alexander Travers, an ensign in the army and sometime sheriff of Co Kerry. Alexander would have been born c1570-75, and he would have married Susanna c1607, and they had numerous children - but only two girls according to Hickson (Annabella and Alice - no sign of a Catherine). These dates allow for Annabella marrying John Downing Jr whose own dob would seem to be 1605-10.
In stating that you know for a fact that JD Jr 'apparently' married Catherine Browne, how sure are you exactly? The CB who was a daughter of Sir VB and Ellis Fitzgerald married Sir Terence Magrath (who wasn't born until 1628 at the earliest - his parents married in 1627) and so would have been too young to have married JD Jr. The CB we seek is far more likely to have been the daughter of his father Nicholas Brown, Esq. and Julia O'Sullivan, since for CB to have married JD Sr., and to have had a son JD Jr. approximately when she did, she would probably have been born c1580-85. (But she could have been some other Browne altogether - there were plenty of them, after all.) Moreover, quite a lot of the Brownes were strong Catholics - VB even married a Desmond, so I can't see many of them wanting to marry a Downing!
Moving back to the Springs. There is some uncertainty here about the sequence of the generations, but I am fairly certain that Capt Thomas Spring was not born in 1519. That would make him 48 when he first went over to Ireland - quite old to be just a lieutenant, which he was when he went out there - 65 when he was appointed Constable of Castlemaine and 73 when appointed High Sheriff of Co Kerry (note possible Travers connection!). A dob of 1519 would also make him the son of Thomas Spring of Lavenham, the wealthy cloth merchant, although he is usually described as his grandson or even great grandson, with a dob of 1545-50.
I look forward to hearing what you think.