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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: cathyturner17 on Thursday 02 December 10 10:25 GMT (UK)
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Why are all the men in our family so elusive?
I have a Sarah Alice Wood who married Albert Sydney Simmons in 1913. Several months later they had a son, Sydney William Charles Simmons.
By 1915, Sarah had packed her bags and come to New Zealand with her small son. I hve no idea what she did with Albert, but she did have several different stories.
One being that he was already married and her parents had sent her to New Zealand so that no one knew she was effectively an unmarried mother. )I have my doubts about this as she told some quite good porkies over the next 17 years.
Are there records of bigamists? Albert was born about 1890, they married in Westham, London.
Marriage cert shows him to be a Corn dealer and his deceased father, Walter as a Corn dealer merchant.
Sydney never saw his father again.
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Unless he got caught there isn't any records to my knowledge about bigamists, I have one in my husbands family, seems no one checked, they moved out of an area and that was it
LM
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There does appear to be another Albert Sidney Simmons marriage in 1903 but whether its the same man or not
Wandsworth Jun qu 1903 brides either Ethel Brannam or Alice Fry.Cant find them in 1911
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Is this of interest
Albert Sydney Simmons
bapt 31/10/1888
St Faith Wandsworth
Father Walter occ looks like corn dealer
Mother Julia
374 York Road
also on same page possibly a sister Kate Mabel
Louisa Maud
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1891 census: RG12/447/49/2
374 York Rd, Wandsworth, Surrey
Walter SIMMONS Head M 37 Corn chandler Essex Gestingthorpe
Julia do Wife M 37 Essex Stow Maries
Walter do Son S 13 Scholar Essex West Ham
Sydney do Son S 10 Scholar Surrey Wandsworth [so not an infant when baptised]
Earnest do Son S 6 Scholar Middx Fulham
(Baby Kate Mabel had died in Mar qtr 1890).
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I don't know if I am on the right track but here is more info
Albert Sidney Simmons birth reg 1879 Sept qtr Wandsworth ref 1a 713
Kate Mabel Simmons birth reg 1888 Sept qtr Wandsworth ref 1a 714
Marriage between
Walter Simmons
and
Julia Allen
West Ham reg dist 1876 June qtr ref 4a 32
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1881
Brittania Road Fulham
Walter Simmons 27 Miller born Gestingthorpe Essex
Julia 27 born Stow Maries
Walter 3 West Ham
Albert 1 Wandsworth
1891
374 York Road, same address as bapt
Walter 37 Gestingthorpe
Julia 37 Stow Maries
Walter 13 West Ham
Sydney 10 Wandsworth
Ernest 6 Fulham
I believe Albert on 1881 and Sydney on 1891 are the same person, the fact he married in West Ham he might well have had connections still there in 1913, his brother Walter was born there
Poss death for Julia 1921 aged 68 Wandsworth
Poss death for Walter 1908 aged 54 Wandsworth
I am having great difficulty finding this family onwards from 1891
LM
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1901 census: RG13/483/25/42
374 York Rd, Wandsworth, Surrey
William Walter* SIMMONDS Head M 46 Corn chandler Gesthorpe Essex
Julia do Wife 46 Stow Maries Essex
Walter do Son 23 Carman corn chandler West Ham Stratford
Ernest do Son 17 Assistant in C shop Lon Wandsworth
Frank do Son 9 Lon Wandsworth
Arthur do Son 5 Lon Wandsworth
*Originally William was entered, overwritten with Walter
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There does appear to be another Albert Sidney Simmons marriage in 1903 but whether its the same man or not
Wandsworth Jun qu 1903 brides either Ethel Brannam or Alice Fry.
It looks to me as though he married Ethel Brannam (b Sep qtr 1884 Wandsworth).
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thanks everyone, I have found these also, and am hoping this is our guy. But if it is, the wife is not his, as he would only have been about 15. IF it is him, his brother Walter inherited, as there is no mention of him in Walters will. Walter died 13/03/1908 with an estate of 1938 pnds and 1651 pnds.
At his sons birth, Albert was listed as working at the oil works.
Marriage cert. to Sarah shows him as being 23 in 1913.
Cathy
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Julia Simmons widow was living at 374 York Road at the time of her death 1921, will adm to Ernest Edward Simmons, contractor, amounting to £154:15s;10d. Ernest as born 1888
LM
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Hmmm, sounds like Albert was disowned. Maybe because of bigamy?
Either that, or as I jokingly say to family, Sarah tossed him in the Thames and ran off to New Zealand.
is there any trace of Walter Jnr or Ernest later on? If I can trace them, maybe they have descendants.
Kate died aged 2 years?
Pity that bigamy is not recorded anywhere.
Wish I could be 100% certain this is my guy, (I am currently sitting on about 50%)
Cathy
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Have you thought about tracing what happened to the children of the marriage to Ethel BRANNAM? I really wouldn't rule out that marriage. The age on the later marriage to Sarah may well be unreliable - either because he lied (as bigamists are prone to) or because the age has been mistranscribed from 33 to 23 at some stage in the record keeping. (Unless it is the original marriage cert that you have?). All the other evidence points strongly to his being the chap born in 1879.
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woth considering
1901 RG13/389 FOLIO 87 PAGE 2
64 Bermondsey New Road in house of Thomas Hirst, lic victualler
SIDNEY SIMMONS
aged 22
servant
born Wandsworth
Seems he used whatever name he fancied
LM
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I can't find Ethel BRANNAM birth BUT 1901 shows the following
RG13/483 FOLIO 113 PAGE 35, corrected from Bramam to Brannam
567 York Road
Abraham BRANNAM aged 52 Greengrocer born Devon
Sarah A 44 Farnham
ETHEL aged 16 Wandsworth
George 12 Wandsworth
York Road ??
I am 100% convinced he married Ethel Brannam
Louisa Maud
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Consider these 2 births
Sydney Walter G born Dec qtr 1906 Wandsworth ref 1d 729
Doris Ethel born Mar qtr 1905 1d 799
possible marriage
Sidney W G Simmons marriage to Ethel D Wicken
June qtr 1936
Pancras
ref 1b 53
LM
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I can't find Ethel BRANNAM birth
I posted it at reply #7. Full details from FreeBMD:
Birth, Sep qtr 1884
Ethel BRANNAM
Wandsworth 1d 734
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methinks you might be right.
Marriage cert is a cert. copy of the original, definitely says aged 23 years.
Liars usually stick as close to the truth as possible, saves getting caught out.
I found another marriage to Ellen Grace Pateman, 1903 2q Wandsworth ID 1349, Albert Sidney Simmons.
If its my guy, he was certainly busy!
There is also a "wifes petition for divorce - Ethel Simmons 1929, (National Archives Kew Divorce Court file 7043
Hem ref J77/2470/7043), not sure how to look into this further. Kew is a long way from Auckland!
I am sure I noted a son born to his marriage to Ethel, and wrote it down, can't find it so will check it out and see if it comes to anything.
Cathy
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I found another marriage to Ellen Grace Pateman, 1903 2q Wandsworth ID 1349, Albert Sidney Simmons.
Are you sure? I can see this much later one:
Marriage, Sep qtr 1931
Ellen G PATEMAN
Albert SIMMONS
Pancras 1b 262
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This 1927 divorce file looks very promising (I think it's the one you were referring to, but it's 1927 rather than 1929):
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-3136277&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CSIMMONS%2CSIMMONS&accessmethod=0
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Marriage cert is a cert. copy of the original, definitely says aged 23 years.
Unfortunately errors can creep in, both in the original transmission of the data to the GRO at the time of registration (assuming it's a GRO certified copy), and in the making of certified copies.
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If this marriage was in a church it can be checked against original church ledgers or microfilm, unfortunately I can't get to the record office at the moment, snowed in almost
LM
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wish it was snowing here, the temperature is unreal at the moment.
Insert Quote
Have you thought about tracing what happened to the children of the marriage to Ethel BRANNAM? I really wouldn't rule out that marriage. The age on the later marriage to Sarah may well be unreliable - either because he lied (as bigamists are prone to) or because the age has been mistranscribed from 33 to 23 at some stage in the record keeping. (Unless it is the original marriage cert that you have?). All the other evidence points strongly to his being the chap born in 1879.
Have just had a look, can find Doris Ethel Simmons born about 1904 and Sydney Walter George Simmons born abbut 1907 (1911 cencus) mother Ethel Simmons listed as a lodger and working in a factory. Married 8 years, at the home of Mr Thomas Wimbledon, 29 Penwith Rd, Earlfield.
Looks like our man was fond of the name Sydney (?unusual to spell this way) and his father was Walter.
I can find a Doris Ethel Simmons married to a Frank Lane in Westham, her son could be Leslie F Lane.
So now I am about 95% convinced this is our man!
Cathy
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Its a copy of the original entry, very clear. The ones they provide here in New Zealand aren't nearly as good!
Cathy
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When in Wellington at the NZ Archives, I was able to look at some divorce records, are you able to do that in England? Do they have accessible records?
These were the original books, in the most wonderful smelling rooms of old books, nice and cool, which gave you a sense of "wow".
One of the NZ scandal papers (NZ Truth) used to print divorce court records for anything with a hint of scandal, not sure if they did that in England?
Would be interesting to see what Ethel Brannam Simmons had for grounds for divorce.
After doing a lot more searching this morning, am now 100% convinced that this is our guy. :)
Cathy
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Dear Cathy turner,
Your search, have you considered that the fella could have been a WW 1 casualty ?? hence the widows departure for NZ, new world, new life and all that, you could search Commonwealth War Graves site ( CWGC )?
Just an idea.......
Regards,
Boblima
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I had thought about that, but it was one story she never told! And it would have been more plausible than any thing else.
Especially when the next 3 men (that we no of) were all in uniform. I did have a bit of a look, but could not see anything that looked like our boy.
I am checking out the divorce records mentioned earlier in the forum as there is something about them that keeps nagging me.
Hope you all had a great Christmas. Its been very hot down here, so the sudden storm yesterday was actually quite welcome.
Cathy
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Dear Cathy Turner,
NZ weather ! Yes my sister in Pakuranga, my uncle in Clive, and a girl we know in Christchurch all said much the same...wish were there !!
Regards,
Boblima ( In gloomy, cold, it's starting to thaw Essex, UK )
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Well, the divorce records arrived today and confirm that our man, Albert Sidney Simmons forgot to divorce (or declare) his first wife. She must have lost track of him as she did not serve him with divorce papers until 1927-28.
There is no mention of him in either of his parents probate records, so I assume they dis-inherited him. Interestingly, on both marriage certs, his age is 23 although there is a 10 year gap.
Now to track his last known whereabouts..........
Cathy
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All of the entries on this conversation have turned out to be our people!
Albert definitely married both Ethel and Sarah. After Ethel eventually caught up with him in the ealy 1930's, he went on to marry the woman she caught him with, one Maud Chamberlain!
However, he then died aged 55, on 03/01/1935 in Richmond, Surrey. His address was 50 Raleigh Road, and by some miracle, I found a photo of the property on line! The marriage to Maud I found a couple of weeks ago and his death cert. arrived today!
Is there any one who could locate what cemetery he may be buried in? I have the third edition of the National Burial Index, but cannot find him on it. Maybe he was cremated.
I managed to find his oldest son Sidney married to Ethel D Wickham.
Many thanks for all your help, it has been great to finally track him down.
Cathy
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All the info I have for Richmond cemeteries is the following
Richmond Cemetery
Lower Grove Road
Richmond Upon Thames
Surrey
TW106HP
I am not sure when cremation became popular but I think it was much later than 1935
The office is open Monday to Friday from 9am until 5pm, excluding Public Holidays, Christmas and New Year.
The Cemetery Office
East Sheen Cemetery,
Sheen Road,
Richmond,
TW10 5BJ
Telephone: 020 8876 4511
Fax: 020 8878 8118
Email: cemeteries@richmond.gov.uk
Hope this helps
Louisa Maud
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Found him!
Albert Sidney Simmons
Section 1
Grave 7304
Richmond Cemetery.
Thre are 4-5 other people in the same grave, all buried within a few days of each other, is this normal? None of them appear to be related.
There may be no headstone, but does anyone live in the area who may be able to take a photograph?
Cathy
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This would be what used to be called a communal grave. Not everyone could afford to buy their own plot, and to save space I suppose more than one would be buried in the same plot, in fact I should imagine most couldn't afford their own plot in those days. A photograph would most likely just be a flat piece of ground, like a lawn if it is kept nicely.
Pleased you have finally been able to track him down
regards
LM