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Census Lookups General Lookups => Census and Resource Discussion => Topic started by: Josephine on Thursday 26 April 12 20:48 BST (UK)
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I just tried to view images from the Strood, Kent baptism register on the LDS site and I got a box that says:
"This image is available: - When using the site at a family history center. - To signed-in members of supporting organizations."
Does anyone know why some of the records are now restricted? If they're online, why aren't they available to everyone?
According to this page, these Anglican Church records are available online only to Mormons:
https://www.familysearch.org/learn/wiki/en/England,_Kent,_Parish_Registers_and_Bishop%27s_Transcripts_%28FamilySearch_Historical_Records%29
"Whenever possible, FamilySearch makes images available for all users. However, ultimate rights to view images on our website are granted by the record custodians. The England, Kent, Parish Registers and Bishop's Transcripts collection is available to the Family History Library, FamilySearch Centers, and to members of the supporting organization, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The images can be viewed at a FamilySearch Center near you."
That doesn't sound right and it completely contradicts something stated higher up on the page:
"These projects are part of an agreement with the Centre for Kentish to digitize and publish our microfilm holdings. The images have all been scanned and delivered. We will be creating waypoint data with the help of the archive, we will publish images for FamilySearch Members and deliver the data to the archive as they are implementing the 'Reading Room Solution'."
Am I reading this wrong? When I signed up for the Family Search website, should I have lied and said I was a Mormon? Would that have allowed me to see the church records of my Anglican family members?
Or is it because they haven't finished the posthumous baptisms of my already-Christian ancestors who were properly baptized by the Anglican church according to the wishes of their parents?
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You are right, at the moment it appears you have to be a member of the LDS church to view the records.
Related thread here: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,594276.0.html
Alexander
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Thanks very much, Alexander!
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The page gives you the answer to your question.
It is very simple the organisation which holds the records (The Centre for Kentish Studies) licenced the images of the records to the LDS with restrictions on who could access them.
These restrictions prevent the LDS displaying the image on their open website but allow access at family history centers.
Instead of shooting the messenger (in this case the LDS) your anger should be directed at the Centre for Kentish Studies who put the restrictions of use on the images.
Incidentally such restrictions of use are nothing new, even back in the days of microfilmed records some archives restricted who the LDS could supply with their microfilms.
Cheers
Guy
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You are right, at the moment it appears you have to be a member of the LDS church to view the records.
No you don't. It's a matter of just walking in the front door and asking to use the search facilities. No, it isn't as convenient as sitting by your own PC, but still hours travel better than going to Kent.
Pauline
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Guy -- Thanks for your response. As a woman I maintain my right to shoot whomever I please with my righteous indignation but in future I will try to improve my aim. ;)
I find it puzzling that the regional owner of Anglican documents would restrict them to non-Anglicans. It seems bizarre to me. I guess no one but the Centre for Kentish Studies and the LDS could tell me the origins and motives for such a rule.
Pauline -- It isn't a matter of a mere inconvenience for me. There isn't an LDS centre with that type of set-up where I live and I don't drive. True, it might be easier than getting on a plane and flying to England, but in the end it's just as impossible. So near and yet so far. I appreciate your response. :)
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Hi Josephine
find it puzzling that the regional owner of Anglican documents would restrict them to non-Anglicans. It seems bizarre to me. I guess no one but the Centre for Kentish Studies and the LDS could tell me the origins and motives for such a rule.
One possibility is that the Archive/Diocese are looking at putting the images on a commercial site. Some other counties such as Cheshire have taken this line whilst Essex have set up their own subscription site.
Andy
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Jospephine, a request on the Kent board for a lookup of your baptism might be worth trying. You might find someone who is planning a visit to the Centre for Kentish studies who may be willing to help. :)
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Thanks so much, Ruskie. :)
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Thanks, Andy, that's an interesting point.
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I find it puzzling that the regional owner of Anglican documents would restrict them to non-Anglicans. It seems bizarre to me. I guess no one but the Centre for Kentish Studies and the LDS could tell me the origins and motives for such a rule.
I don't think Guy has said they are restricted to non-Anglicans. He's said their use is restricted to Family History Centres, where anyone can look at them ( I'm an Anglican, and have frequently used LDS Family History Centres, for which I've been very grateful :) ).
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Are the STROOD registers not avaiable to all on the CityArk site?????
http://cityark.medway.gov.uk
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Hi Josephine
find it puzzling that the regional owner of Anglican documents would restrict them to non-Anglicans. It seems bizarre to me. I guess no one but the Centre for Kentish Studies and the LDS could tell me the origins and motives for such a rule.
One possibility is that the Archive/Diocese are looking at putting the images on a commercial site. Some other counties such as Cheshire have taken this line whilst Essex have set up their own subscription site.
Andy
Yes, I would suggest that money is, as ever, at the root of this situation.
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Are the STROOD registers not avaiable to all on the CityArk site?????
http://cityark.medway.gov.uk
alunno-a is correct, they are on the Medway Archives site which has no restrictions, and in fact they've been on there for a quite a number of years. ;)
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I don't think Guy has said they are restricted to non-Anglicans. He's said their use is restricted to Family History Centres, where anyone can look at them ( I'm an Anglican, and have frequently used LDS Family History Centres, for which I've been very grateful :) ).
Jen -- They're restricted to Mormons only on the internet which is where it counts for me.
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Are the STROOD registers not avaiable to all on the CityArk site?????
http://cityark.medway.gov.uk
There are a few groupings of records for which I've received that notice. I double-checked and was sure that the Strood ones I was trying to look at were not also available online at the Medway Archives site.
At any rate, there is more than one set of Anglican Church records from England that I have been excited to see listed on the LDS website and then very disappointed when I got that message.
I am hopeful that once they have finished making my ancestors proper Christians (i.e. Mormons) instead of heathen Anglicans they will make the records available to us non-Mormons. I am certainly grateful that they are making financial business arrangements that include the descendants of the records in question at some point in time. I personally cannot afford to purchase the rights from the copyright holders and so must rely on the benevolence of strangers.
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I am hopeful that once they have finished making my ancestors proper Christians (i.e. Mormons) instead of heathen Anglicans they will make the records available to us non-Mormons. I am certainly grateful that they are making financial business arrangements that include the descendants of the records in question at some point in time. I personally cannot afford to purchase the rights from the copyright holders and so must rely on the benevolence of strangers.
If the Kent archive does enter into a commercial arrangement regarding the images it is likely to be with the likes of Findmypast or Ancestry as other counties have done, and not the LDS, but until there is more information it is all supposition. Ultimately it is the County/Diocese Archive that has the final say and not the LDS.
Andy
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Thanks, Andy.
I've got a subscription to Find My Past right now and have subscribed to Ancestry in the past. At other times, when I couldn't afford it, kind Rootschatters have done look-ups for me.
The internet is amazing and I'm so happy when I am able to learn more about my or my husband's family. So much of our family history was lost when our ancestors emigrated to Canada. When I started researching our family trees, I was almost completely starting from scratch.
It was disappointing for me to get so excited and happy at the thought of being able to view different records from my ancestors' religious institution only to learn that people who likely had no real connection whatsoever were the only ones allowed to view them (online -- which is the only way I personally could access them).
My questions were fair. Perhaps it was just a financial agreement, something to do with the contract between the LDS and the holder of the copyright (assuming that they are the legal copyright holders), but surely to goodness we can admit that only the Mormon church would make such stipulations a requirement of the business agreement. What would possess an Anglican or secular organization to suddenly insist that only Mormons be permitted to view the records online? In reality, it wouldn't even occur to them.
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Hi
I think we need to be cautious about this because we are not privy to any of the agreements between the LDS and Kent Archive
I suspect that the LDS has done the filming/digitising of the registers and the agreement between the LDS and the Archive could be along the lines of, we will do the digitising and in return have some access to the images for our members, Family History Centres etc. This would be a good agreement for an Archive or Diocese to enter into as they could then enter into a seperate business arrangement with a commercial site to allow the general public access.
Ultimately what the LDS can or can't do, or who can or can't access the images is up to the Diocese/Archive and not the LDS. If a Diocese or Archive was considering entering into a business arrangement with a commercial site it is not going to allow a free site such as the LDS to also have general access as that would reduce the value of the commodity.
As far as I'm aware the Parish Registers are the copyright of the Church and in many cases the County Archive is also the Diocese Archive.
Andy
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I tried to find the message about Strood restrictions but failed to find any such message on the "Catalog" on either the new or old version of familysearch.org
Most restrictions are placed by commercial enterprises and there will be a statement to the fact that although the film/microfiche/book etc. has been given to the main LDS Library in Salt Lake City but it is not available for distribution to the branch LDS Centres in other places. That is normally to protect the sales of the product by the compiler.
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I think Andy is correct that the restrictions on who/where people can access the images will have been included in the agreement between the LDS and the archives. From what I can see the LDS are simply digitising the microfilms that they already hold of parish registers and are not digitising any registers from scratch. That way they will be limited to the original agreement unless they can get the archives to agree otherwise. It shouldn't be forgotten that the original microfilms can only be viewed in FHCs upon payment of an admin charge to the LDS for shipment of the films, so making them available via the internet, even if only at their own FHCs, means that we don't have to pay the admin charge for these registers ... and following the large increase in this charge in the UK a few year's ago I believe the number being viewed at UK FHCs has dropped significantly, not surprising really considering they more then doubled the charge.
Bearing in mind the Medway Archives already provide a free website to view all their parish registers, apart from the most recent which I doubt the LDS have been allowed to film anyway, and in light of recent reports that the Canterbury Cathedral Archives have signed an agreement with FindMyPast to host a lot of their archival records, it's not really surprising that the restrictions for non-members to view at FHCs only has been put in place. OK LDS members can now view them anyway, but that is their benefit being members of the church.
As to Josephine's comment that the PRs for Strood she wished to view weren't available on the Medway Archives website, I would be very surprised if this was the case since Medway Archives hold all the original PRs for that area anyway. Most Medway Archives registers seem to end more recently than a lot that the LDS have made available on their own website. It may be worth double checking ...
Yes I am a little annoyed the restriction remains to view at FHCs only, but at least it saves me having to pay the £7.50 per film admin charge each time when there is no guarantee I will find anything.
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I don't think Guy has said they are restricted to non-Anglicans. He's said their use is restricted to Family History Centres, where anyone can look at them ( I'm an Anglican, and have frequently used LDS Family History Centres, for which I've been very grateful :) ).
Jen -- They're restricted to Mormons only on the internet which is where it counts for me.
Sorry but you are wrong again Jen.
Many such records are redacted from the website whether signed in or not the only way to view them is via the intranet network at the family history centers.
I should also mention that members of the general public may sign up on the LDS website they do not have to be members of the Church to be Patrons.
It seems very obvious to me that you have not considered that the licence owners may have an exclusive deal with another provider for online use which bars them form allowing others (including the LDS) from using the images online.
There are many reasons for such deals, some are to promote a specific website, others are to recoup digitising expences, others to maximise online fees. Some of the deals are long term or permanent, others for a limited term.
The best answer would be to contact the Centre of Kentish Studies to find out why such a restriction was put in place and perhaps make them aware of your thoughts on the issue.
The LDS are morally and legally obliged to abide by their licence and should be applauded not castigated.
Cheers
Guy
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I was surprised at Josephine's claim that there was "no LDS centre with that type of setup", because where I live (out in the sticks in the UK Fens) I have an LDS centre 15 miles away. When I looked up Ontario, Canada, the place is teeming with them ! ::)
I appreciate that Josephine does not drive and may be infirm, but it's not possible to do family history entirely online. The records she is moaning about are not unique - a lot of LDS records are on microfilm which they do not lend out, and which are also only available to view at LDS centres.
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You are lucky Nick ;D
My local LDS closed at least 3 years ago, we were told it was temporary then later that it probably would not reopen as information was now going on to the internet. I have just looked at my 3 nearest centres on the library list, Aldershot, High Wycombe and Staines and they all carry this message -
Closed to the public
Attention: This Centre does not have film circulation ::)
Incidentally they are the only ones on the list that carry this message.
Rosie
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As surprised as you may be, I am not moaning nor am I lying.
I was surprised at Josephine's claim that there was "no LDS centre with that type of setup", because where I live (out in the sticks in the UK Fens) I have an LDS centre 15 miles away. When I looked up Ontario, Canada, the place is teeming with them ! ::)
I appreciate that Josephine does not drive and may be infirm, but it's not possible to do family history entirely online. The records she is moaning about are not unique - a lot of LDS records are on microfilm which they do not lend out, and which are also only available to view at LDS centres.
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I'm familiar with concepts in copyright law, etc.
It's too bad the links in question on the LDS main menu don't have a "restricted" symbol on them so non-Mormons wouldn't waste their time clicking all the various links to get to where they think they're going only to be told that only members of the LDS can view them online.
I don't think Guy has said they are restricted to non-Anglicans. He's said their use is restricted to Family History Centres, where anyone can look at them ( I'm an Anglican, and have frequently used LDS Family History Centres, for which I've been very grateful :) ).
Jen -- They're restricted to Mormons only on the internet which is where it counts for me.
Sorry but you are wrong again Jen.
Many such records are redacted from the website whether signed in or not the only way to view them is via the intranet network at the family history centers.
I should also mention that members of the general public may sign up on the LDS website they do not have to be members of the Church to be Patrons.
It seems very obvious to me that you have not considered that the licence owners may have an exclusive deal with another provider for online use which bars them form allowing others (including the LDS) from using the images online.
There are many reasons for such deals, some are to promote a specific website, others are to recoup digitising expences, others to maximise online fees. Some of the deals are long term or permanent, others for a limited term.
The best answer would be to contact the Centre of Kentish Studies to find out why such a restriction was put in place and perhaps make them aware of your thoughts on the issue.
The LDS are morally and legally obliged to abide by their licence and should be applauded not castigated.
Cheers
Guy
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It's possible I misremembered the name of the town in question. I know I did a "search" on the Medway Archives site and whichever town whose records it was that I wanted to look at didn't show up.
As to Josephine's comment that the PRs for Strood she wished to view weren't available on the Medway Archives website, I would be very surprised if this was the case since Medway Archives hold all the original PRs for that area anyway. Most Medway Archives registers seem to end more recently than a lot that the LDS have made available on their own website. It may be worth double checking ...
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As surprised as you may be, I am not moaning nor am I lying.
I was surprised at Josephine's claim that there was "no LDS centre with that type of setup", because where I live (out in the sticks in the UK Fens) I have an LDS centre 15 miles away. When I looked up Ontario, Canada, the place is teeming with them ! ::)
I appreciate that Josephine does not drive and may be infirm, but it's not possible to do family history entirely online. The records she is moaning about are not unique - a lot of LDS records are on microfilm which they do not lend out, and which are also only available to view at LDS centres.
But the fact remains..... that the majority of records held by the LDS are only viewable at one of their centres. Although there's a huge amount of data available online these days, not all of it is, so some travel is inevitable.
P.S. I'm a member of the LDS, but I'm NOT a Mormon (or anything else, for that matter).
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Is it me? I have lost track of what this discussion is about....
The Strood PRs are on CityArk- all the Medway Prs are there.
The LDS does not own the copyright to these or any other PRs, nor does anyone else including the Churches. They own copyright,if at all, to their images/indexing/transcriptions. PRs are public records.
There are lots of problems with Family Search and the IGI etc, and it is annoying that not all their stuff is freely available on line-annoying, but why should it be free?? It isn't free on any other site, we pay for looking at images at the national Archives site, Ancestry etc etc.
None of us would get very far in our research if it wasn't for the LDS: they must spend millions getting all this stuff- we may not like their motivation, but we should be grateful- and use their data base and records as it should be used, wisely- and stop moaning.
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Nick, I think at one time I signed up to the LDS on one of their websites. As far as I remember it was no more difficult than becoming a member of Rootschat, ie user name, password, e-mail address; is that right?
If you can confirm that's all it takes, then I suggest Josephine does the same and signs up - set up a hotmail account if you don't want to be easily identified; problem solved ;D
If the LDS hadn't bothered to film all those records all over the world and made them available all over the world, along with the transcriptions that they have provided for free, then we'd all find this hobby much harder. Personally I'm grateful to them.
KR
Gaie
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Snip
The LDS does not own the copyright to these or any other PRs, nor does anyone else including the Churches. They own copyright,if at all, to their images/indexing/transcriptions. PRs are public records.
snip
Parish Registers are not and never have been public records they have always been the copyright of the vicar or current incumbent of the parish and were at one time one of the main sources of his income.
The fact that the public have access to records does not mean that the records are in the public domain as far as copyright is concerned.
Parish registers are indeed one of the few works that could be considered to carry perpetual copyright.
The reason for this is unless a parish is amalgamated into another, the parish register is a continuing work of multiple authors. It is only when a parish no longer exists that a parish register may be considered complete and the copyright timetable starts.
Cheers
Guy
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P.S. I'm a member of the LDS, but I'm NOT a Mormon (or anything else, for that matter).
I'm not an expert on the subject, but the LDS church does not allow non-Mormons to be members of their church. Sure, you can make an account on FamilySearch, but this will not give you access to any additional records such as the Kent registers and certainly does not make you a member of the LDS.
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Guy-
Are you sure??
I cannot see how copyright conventions can apply to parish records- they are not creative works, and do not have authors. Copyright does not apply to data sets or information in itself. And PRs are public records, what makes you think they are not? An incumbant making a few bob on them is irrelevent- that was his fee for keeping the record- just like a registrar's salary. The Parish acted as the collector of records required by statute, by the courts etc.and could be looked at and COPIED on demand.
Is this not right??
Sally
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An incumbant making a few bob on them is irrelevent- that was his fee for keeping the record- just like a registrar's salary.
Mammon wins again!! ;)
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Nick, I think at one time I signed up to the LDS on one of their websites. As far as I remember it was no more difficult than becoming a member of Rootschat, ie user name, password, e-mail address; is that right?
Yes, that's entirely correct, and that's what I did. I've not been contacted or pestered since that time.
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It's not that it's not free. It's that only Mormons are permitted to view certain records on the LDS website (not just the Strood records) and these records pertain to Anglicans. (Other records on the LDS website may be viewed online by anyone including non-Mormons.) My question, born out of disappointment and curiousity, was why that was so. It strikes me as more than a little odd.
Is it me? I have lost track of what this discussion is about....
The Strood PRs are on CityArk- all the Medway Prs are there.
The LDS does not own the copyright to these or any other PRs, nor does anyone else including the Churches. They own copyright,if at all, to their images/indexing/transcriptions. PRs are public records.
There are lots of problems with Family Search and the IGI etc, and it is annoying that not all their stuff is freely available on line-annoying, but why should it be free?? It isn't free on any other site, we pay for looking at images at the national Archives site, Ancestry etc etc.
None of us would get very far in our research if it wasn't for the LDS: they must spend millions getting all this stuff- we may not like their motivation, but we should be grateful- and use their data base and records as it should be used, wisely- and stop moaning.
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I did sign up on their website and, as you say, it did not grant me access to those records online.
P.S. I'm a member of the LDS, but I'm NOT a Mormon (or anything else, for that matter).
I'm not an expert on the subject, but the LDS church does not allow non-Mormons to be members of their church. Sure, you can make an account on FamilySearch, but this will not give you access to any additional records such as the Kent registers and certainly does not make you a member of the LDS.
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OK, here's your answer which I found in the help section:
https://www.familysearch.org/help/viewdocument?documentId=113718&sliceId=SAL_Public&userQuery=supporting+organization
There is an address where you can ask for further information.
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Hi
It's not that it's not free. It's that only Mormons are permitted to view certain records on the LDS website (not just the Strood records) and these records pertain to Anglicans. (Other records on the LDS website may be viewed online by anyone including non-Mormons.) My question, born out of disappointment and curiousity, was why that was so. It strikes me as more than a little odd.
The LDS do not have the ultimate say in who can view images of Parish Registers online, the copyright holder of the images, the Church of England in this case, has that say. What we are talking about here is the images of the registers and not the data contained. On at least a couple of occasions the LDS has uploaded images of registers and then had to remove them. Cheshire is one instance but I must admit this is the first time I have seen a case of limited access to the images.
The original agreements between the LDS and the Churches/Archives allowed the general public access to the films through Family History Centres so maybe the wording is such that the LDS believe that they can also put the images online at the Family History Centres without requiring further permission from the copyright holders. If this is the way the LDS are going then that will be good for people who use the FHCs as it means that instead of ordering a film, paying and waiting for it to be delivered, you can just go in and look online.
Andy
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Guy-
Are you sure??
I cannot see how copyright conventions can apply to parish records- they are not creative works, and do not have authors. Copyright does not apply to data sets or information in itself. And PRs are public records, what makes you think they are not? An incumbant making a few bob on them is irrelevent- that was his fee for keeping the record- just like a registrar's salary. The Parish acted as the collector of records required by statute, by the courts etc.and could be looked at and COPIED on demand.
Is this not right??
Sally
Yes I am sure as are the legal advice I have taken on this subject, though it has not been tested in court.
Prior to the 18th century copyright existed at common law, i.e. there was no statute or Act of parliament that provided for copyright it was a right gained by custom and use.
The Statute of Anne (1710) granted copyright to publishers (not authors) for a term of 14 years.
This initial Copyright Act was over centuries developed to include authors and extended to what is covered today.
Database Right was introducted to copyright in 1997.
This gives copyright to data and includes sweat of the brow as well as originality, something which is often claimed is not included in copyright. Under UK and European law it now is.
Parish Registers unlike Civil Registers are not Public Records they do not come under the remit of the various Public Records Acts unlike Civil Registers.
They are the records of the Church of England and dealt with under seperate legislation, it could however be argued that the civil records kept during the civil war and Commonweath periods are included as public records.
The fact that members of the public are allowed to take a copy of an entry in a parish register (since 1644) does not mean they are allowed to copy parish registers.
The incumbent is due a fee for searches and certified copies of entries in his/her parish registers whether he/she holds the registers of not (i.e. those registers held at the Dioscean Archive). It is not recompense for copying the entry.
Before any parish register is copied permission has to be obtained from the current incumbent.
The Parochial Registers and Records Measure, 1929 states it this way.-
"(3) For removing doubts it is hereby declared that subject to the provisions of this Measure the title to or right to the possession of register books of baptisms, marriages or burials in the lawful power and custody of a minister or of a minister and churchwardens is incapable of assignment whether for value or otherwise."
Cheers
Guy
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But there are some parish register images to be viewed on-line via the Family Search website - I've just been looking at the images for marriages in Lancashire and Yorkshire, in the comfort of my own home.
Surely that means that only some of the records have been uploaded in this format!! In the same way that not all parish registers for a county have been uploaded to Ancestry.
We had a talk recently from a member of LDS Library and she said that they are adding records, of one kind or another, every day.
Modified: And they still don't acknowledge burials, so still only a finding aid, and partial at that ::) ::)
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I did sign up on their website and, as you say, it did not grant me access to those records online.
I don't think I ever claimed that it would. I merely claimed that non-Mormons could sign up on the LDS Family Search site, which is true.