Restrictions on viewing images at LDS site Family Search

[andycand]

Hi

I think we need to be cautious about this because we are not privy to any of the agreements between the LDS and Kent Archive

I suspect that the LDS has done the filming/digitising of the registers and the agreement between the LDS and the Archive could be along the lines of, we will do the digitising and in return have some access to the images for our members, Family History Centres etc. This would be a good agreement for an Archive or Diocese to enter into as they could then enter into a seperate business arrangement with a commercial site to allow the general public access.

Ultimately what the LDS can or can't do, or who can or can't access the images is up to the Diocese/Archive and not the LDS. If a Diocese or Archive was considering entering into a business arrangement with a commercial site it is not going to allow a free site such as the LDS to also have general access as that would reduce the value of the commodity.

As far as I'm aware the Parish Registers are the copyright of the Church and in many cases the County Archive is also the Diocese Archive.

Andy

[barryd]

I tried to find the message about Strood restrictions but failed to find any such message on the "Catalog" on either the new or old version of familysearch.org
Most restrictions are placed by commercial enterprises and there will be a statement to the fact that although the film/microfiche/book etc. has been given to the main LDS Library in Salt Lake City but it is not available for distribution to the branch LDS Centres in other places. That is normally to protect the sales of the product by the compiler.

[smudwhisk]

I think Andy is correct that the restrictions on who/where people can access the images will have been included in the agreement between the LDS and the archives.  From what I can see the LDS are simply digitising the microfilms that they already hold of parish registers and are not digitising any registers from scratch.  That way they will be limited to the original agreement unless they can get the archives to agree otherwise.  It shouldn't be forgotten that the original microfilms can only be viewed in FHCs upon payment of an admin charge to the LDS for shipment of the films, so making them available via the internet, even if only at their own FHCs, means that we don't have to pay the admin charge for these registers ... and following the large increase in this charge in the UK a few year's ago I believe the number being viewed at UK FHCs has dropped significantly, not surprising really considering they more then doubled the charge.

Bearing in mind the Medway Archives already provide a free website to view all their parish registers, apart from the most recent which I doubt the LDS have been allowed to film anyway, and in light of recent reports that the Canterbury Cathedral Archives have signed an agreement with FindMyPast to host a lot of their archival records, it's not really surprising that the restrictions for non-members to view at FHCs only has been put in place.  OK LDS members can now view them anyway, but that is their benefit being members of the church.

As to Josephine's comment that the PRs for Strood she wished to view weren't available on the Medway Archives website, I would be very surprised if this was the case since Medway Archives hold all the original PRs for that area anyway.  Most Medway Archives registers seem to end more recently than a lot that the LDS have made available on their own website.  It may be worth double checking ...

Yes I am a little annoyed the restriction remains to view at FHCs only, but at least it saves me having to pay the £7.50 per film admin charge each time when there is no guarantee I will find anything.

[Guy Etchells]

I don't think Guy has said they are restricted to non-Anglicans. He's said their use is restricted to Family History Centres, where anyone can look at them ( I'm an Anglican, and have frequently used LDS Family History Centres, for which I've been very grateful  ).

Jen -- They're restricted to Mormons only on the internet which is where it counts for me.

Sorry but you are wrong again Jen.

Many such records are redacted from the website whether signed in or not the only way to view them is via the intranet network at the family history centers.
I should also mention that members of the general public may sign up on the LDS website they do not have to be members of the Church to be Patrons.

It seems very obvious to me that you have not considered that the licence owners may have an exclusive deal with another provider for online use which bars them form allowing others (including the LDS) from using the images online.

There are many reasons for such deals, some are to promote a specific website, others are to recoup digitising expences, others to maximise online fees. Some of the deals are long term or permanent, others for a limited term.

The best answer would be to contact the Centre of Kentish Studies to find out why such a restriction was put in place and perhaps make them aware of your thoughts on the issue.

The LDS are morally and legally obliged to abide by their licence and should be applauded not castigated.
Cheers
Guy

[Nick29]

I was surprised at Josephine's claim that there was "no LDS centre with that type of setup", because where I live (out in the sticks in the UK Fens) I have an LDS centre 15 miles away.  When I looked up Ontario, Canada, the place is teeming with them ! 

I appreciate that Josephine does not drive and may be infirm, but it's not possible to do family history entirely online.  The records she is moaning about are not unique - a lot of LDS records are on microfilm which they do not lend out, and which are also only available to view at LDS centres.

[rosie99]

You are lucky Nick 

My local LDS closed at least 3 years ago, we were told it was temporary then later that it probably would not reopen as information was now going on to the internet.  I have just looked at my 3 nearest centres on the library list, Aldershot, High Wycombe and Staines and they all carry this message -
Closed to the public
Attention: This Centre does not have film circulation   

Incidentally they are the only ones on the list that carry this message.

Rosie

[Josephine]

As surprised as you may be, I am not moaning nor am I lying.

I was surprised at Josephine's claim that there was "no LDS centre with that type of setup", because where I live (out in the sticks in the UK Fens) I have an LDS centre 15 miles away.  When I looked up Ontario, Canada, the place is teeming with them ! 

I appreciate that Josephine does not drive and may be infirm, but it's not possible to do family history entirely online.  The records she is moaning about are not unique - a lot of LDS records are on microfilm which they do not lend out, and which are also only available to view at LDS centres.

[Josephine]

I'm familiar with concepts in copyright law, etc.

It's too bad the links in question on the LDS main menu don't have a "restricted" symbol on them so non-Mormons wouldn't waste their time clicking all the various links to get to where they think they're going only to be told that only members of the LDS can view them online.

I don't think Guy has said they are restricted to non-Anglicans. He's said their use is restricted to Family History Centres, where anyone can look at them ( I'm an Anglican, and have frequently used LDS Family History Centres, for which I've been very grateful  ).

Jen -- They're restricted to Mormons only on the internet which is where it counts for me.

Sorry but you are wrong again Jen.

Many such records are redacted from the website whether signed in or not the only way to view them is via the intranet network at the family history centers.
I should also mention that members of the general public may sign up on the LDS website they do not have to be members of the Church to be Patrons.

It seems very obvious to me that you have not considered that the licence owners may have an exclusive deal with another provider for online use which bars them form allowing others (including the LDS) from using the images online.

There are many reasons for such deals, some are to promote a specific website, others are to recoup digitising expences, others to maximise online fees. Some of the deals are long term or permanent, others for a limited term.

The best answer would be to contact the Centre of Kentish Studies to find out why such a restriction was put in place and perhaps make them aware of your thoughts on the issue.

The LDS are morally and legally obliged to abide by their licence and should be applauded not castigated.
Cheers
Guy

[Josephine]

It's possible I misremembered the name of the town in question. I know I did a "search" on the Medway Archives site and whichever town whose records it was that I wanted to look at didn't show up.

As to Josephine's comment that the PRs for Strood she wished to view weren't available on the Medway Archives website, I would be very surprised if this was the case since Medway Archives hold all the original PRs for that area anyway.  Most Medway Archives registers seem to end more recently than a lot that the LDS have made available on their own website.  It may be worth double checking ...