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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: AlexStewart on Thursday 08 August 13 21:17 BST (UK)
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I note that John Bayes married Elizabeth on 25 Dec 1834 at St Mary's, Rushden.
In the census material of 1851 and 1861 Elizabeth was from Dean or Upper Dean.
From one of the online databases I note that Elizabeth Burgess married John Bayes on
Christmas Day in 1834. However, I cannot find any firm reference to a birth or christening
for an Elizabeth Burgess in Dean. Is anyone able to discover her there or would she be found
in a larger parish nearby?
Alex
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Can you include details of her birthyear please
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One of the Ancestry trees has a document evidencing the birth of their son William in Rushden on 19 Sep 1835 where Elizabeth's father was named as William Burgess, tailor. As this was a dissenters' document filed at Dr Williams' Library there's every chance that Elizabeth's family were dissenters too, so her baptism may not have been in an established church.
The NBI on www.findmypast.com shows a burial of William Burgess in Dean in 1824 aged 56, plus various children in Dean, the dates of which can be established by trial and error. Censuses show possible siblings of Elizabeth, but there are no baptisms in Dean on the IGI around 1800. I think you need to research all Burgesses from Dean to try to establish the mother's name to see if you find their marriage - there is a possibility on the IGI at Yelden which adjoins Dean, in 1790. But I can't see a burial at Dean of a possible wife of William.
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Thank you for those replies. I estimate Elizabeth's birth as 1808 or 1809.
If she became Elizabeth Bayes in 1834 in Rushden, we can expect to find them living
in Northamptonshire. I believe there is evidence that she died in Rushden in 1863.
Your point about dissenters is a good one, although after 1834 the Bayes family are
connected with the established church.
There is evidence of a brother born in Dean who turns up in Raunds near Rushden who
is connected with a tailor there, so that would fit your point about William Burgess.
Thank you for the point about Yelden. I will look at other villages near by.
AS
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..... although after 1834 the Bayes family are connected with the established church.
but clearly the Bayes family were still dissenters when the birth of their son William was registered in 1835
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You are right. I should have checked information from a Bayes descendant. The marriage in 1834
was at St Mary's, Rushden, but William's christening is not listed there in 1835. Their son James was married there in 1860, but I will now check what happened to his daughter Rebecca born in 1866!
Thanks for your helpful comments.
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The house of William Burgess in Dean was licenced as a dissenters meeting house on 13 Apr 1811. The record doesn't give which flavour of non-conformity the meeting house belonged to. (Bedfordshire Chapels and Meeting Houses: Official Registration 1672-1901, Ed Edwin Welch, Bedfordshire Historical Record Society 1996).
The 1834 marriage can be found at http://www.rushdenheritage.co.uk/genealogy/registers/stmarym-1813-1837.html
Yelden/Yielden marriages are on Freereg at http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl The marriage on 18 Oct 1790 describes him as William Burgess of Dean, tailor, and Elizabeth White. Even without a baptism for Elizabeth Burgess c 1808, the birth document for her son which names her father as William Burgess of Dean, tailor gives an audit trail through to the 1790 marriage.
It seems to be coming together!
David
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Thank you so much, David. That is very interesting and much appreciated.
Alex
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On the Rushden heritage site they have a link to the Old Baptist Church book where it lists the members, on page 273 Elizabeth Burgess joined 26/06/1808 and died 11/02/1844, buried 12/02/1844.
In the Dean PRs I found at the Hunts Archives today there's burial of Eliz wife of William Burges on 4 Aug 1797
John
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On the Rushden heritage site they have a link to the Old Baptist Church book where it lists the members, on page 273 Elizabeth Burgess joined 26/06/1808 and died 11/02/1844, buried 12/02/1844.
In the Dean PRs I found at the Hunts Archives today there's burial of Eliz wife of William Burges on 4 Aug 1797
John
Thank you, John
I will have another look at the Rushden Research site and the area you suggested.
The 1808 date is interesting and may well fit, but the 1797 and 1844 are puzzling.
I now have Elizabeth Burgess, senior, as 1779-1833. Elizabeth, the daughter, lived until 1863.
Alex
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I now have Elizabeth Burgess, senior, as 1779-1833
??? I don't follow this.
As I see it, in the light of John's findings, the position may look something like this
William Burgess c1768 – 1824 m i) 1790 Elizabeth White c1770-1797
ii) 1797-1804 Elizabeth (–?--) b1881-6 - 1844
Children
Hannah c1792 m Packwood
Thomas c1796
Ann bef 1800 m White
John c1804
William c1805
Elizabeth c1808 – 1863 m Bayes
Children assumed to all be from father William, from censuses, and marriages in Dean from IGI
I can't see a second marriage for William, but a look up request in Northants Marriage Index might be fruitful.
Where's Elizabeth in 1841?
David
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Where's Elizabeth in 1841?
Ancestry has her mistranscribed as Bettger - the Rushden Heritage site had her correct
Elizabeth Burgis age 55 Lacemaker, in Little Street Rushden
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What's significance of Ann Colson age 80 living with John & Elizabeth Bayes in 1841
A William Burgess, widower of Dean, married Ruth Colson in Rushden on 29 June 1802
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Do stop asking awkward questions which mess up my preconceived ideas!
Is there a death/burial of a Ruth Burgess c 1807?
I'm beginning to go round in circles, so it's time to go to the market. Stage is down by the way
David
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Sometimes I forget an obvious source. A Muster List was taken in early August 1803 covering all men aged 17 to 55. That for Dean includes:
Wm. Burges, taylor, 2 children under 10, class 3
John Burges, taylor, class 1
Class 1 included men between 17 and 30, unmarried, no children living under 10.
Class 3 covered men between 17 and 30, married, OR having 2 children under 10
In my reply #11 below I was clearly wrong in applying 3 children to William before 1800 - one of the three couldn't have been his. And his age seems to have been younger than his burial age implies.
Non-conformists can be very frustrating!
David
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While I've not found burial of Ruth Burgess the Dean PR baptisms show on 26 Nov 1826 Mary daughter of William & Ruth Burgess, of Upper Dean, Taylor age 17 years. This was on same day as baptism of Ann daughter of Thomas & Hannah Packwood of Upper Dean.
There is also baptism on 26 June 1831 of William son of William & Ruth Burgess of Upper Dean, Taylor, age 26. This is on same day as baptism of Mary Ann daughter of William & Martha Burgess of upper Dean, Taylor
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Thank you to John and David for those replies.
So if William Burgess married Elizabeth White in Yelden in 1790 and Ruth
Colson in Rushden in 1802, that means that Ruth was the mother of Elizabeth who
married John Bayes. That also explains why Ann Colson was living with the Burgess
family at the age of 80 in Rushden.
Thanks again
Alex
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Alex; So what is the relationship of Ann Colson to Ruth Colson ? You say that explains it, so what info do you have?
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Alex; So what is the relationship of Ann Colson to Ruth Colson ? You say that explains it, so what info do you have?
As Ann Colson is found in 1841 at 80 living in High Street, Rushden with John Bays and Elizabeth Bays, the daughter of William Burgess and Ruth Colson, it is reasonable to assume that Ann may well be in close relationship to Elizabeth's mother Ruth. By the word explain I simply meant it may well account for the reason she was there with them. As she is about 80 in 1841 she must have been born around 1760. I note that Ruth was admitted to the Old Baptist Church at Rushden in 1791, so it is quite possible they were related but I do not know what the precise relationship was.
Alex
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On the Rushden heritage site they have a link to the Old Baptist Church book where it lists the members, on page 273 Elizabeth Burgess joined 26/06/1808 and died 11/02/1844, buried 12/02/1844.
Think she is Elizabeth Burgis aged 55 on 1841 census living in Little Street Rushden, who has death index in Wellingborough RD in Mar 1844 .... however the baptist church entry would have joined/baptised date in the child's name so if the entry is correct she did not marry ? Seeing as she was born 1786 she may well have joined the baptist church after her marriage to a Mr Burgess
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There is a burial entry at the Old Baptist Church of Ann Colson on 17 May 1846 that tallies with the death index in Wellingborough RD in June 1846. So if Ann is Elizabeth Burgess's mother - assumed to be Ruth Colson, who was admitted into Baptist Church on 4 Oct 1791 then we're looking for marriage of a male Colson to an Ann born c 1761 prior to this ? As Ruth married William Burgess in 1802 she must have been born prior to her admission to Baptist church in 1791. Also William was born 1768 so I would expect wife Ruth so be born 1775 onwards
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....next.... after William Burgess of Upper Dean burial on 25 Mar 1824 age 56 (he died of small pox - as per Dean burial register) interestingly there's a Rushden marriage on 5 June 1827 of Ruth Burgess to Thomas Smith. Transcript does not state spinster nor widow
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Thank you for your points about William's death through smallpox. I appreciated also the
points made about Ruth Colson's second marriage and those about Ann Colson and the Baptist
Church.
Alex