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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Aberdeenshire => Topic started by: daisypetals01 on Sunday 25 August 13 06:37 BST (UK)
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Am completely stumped! Need help, please.
Have traced back to Charles Fraser, only son of Thirlow Fraser and Elspet Skene, who was born in either Tarves or St. Nicholas Parish in 1881.
A Thirlow Fraser was found listed in the Mormon Church website as being born in 1858 or 1859 and only his mother was listed. Her name was Margaret Fraser. No father is listed. No other information.
Anyone know of:
1. Margaret Fraser possibly from Tarves or nearby?
2. Is Thirlow a misspell of Thurlow?
3. Where does Thurlow come from?
4. Any info that can give me a thread to follow in this branch of the family.
Thankyou very much!!
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Hi and Welcome to Rootschat
I see that Charles Fraser was born 1st Nov 1881 at 46 Loch Street, Aberdeen to Thirlow Fraser, farm servant and Elsie Skene*, domestic servant (domiciled at Aucha/edly, Tarves). As they weren't married, both signed the birth cert. Thirlow gives his address as Hawkhillock, Old Deer.
On the 1881, the most likely Thirlow is a Thirlow Fraser, 23 (so b. circa 1858) , farm servant, b. New Deer, living at South Auchedly, Tarves.
In 1871, it looks as if he is working at Lower Oldwhat?, New Deer:
Thirlow Fraser, 12, farm servant, b. New Deer
In 1861, he is with his parents at Mains of Barrack, Savoch
William Fraser, 43, cattleman, b. Fraserburgh
Isobella, w, 38
Peter, s, 10
Isobella, d, 8
James, s, 6
barbara, d, 4
Thurlow, s, 2
All but William b. New Deer
His birth is recorded as 22 July 1858, New Deer with parents William Fraser and Isobele m.s. Mitchell:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XYY8-4L3
The son of Margaret Fraser was born Tyrie which is a way from New Deer.
This is just my take on it and it would be worth doing more checks.
* I think Elsie/Elspet is at home in Tarves with her parents on the 1881 census
Gadget
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A couple of general points. First, the Mormon web site is an absolutely wonderful finding aid. However it is not infallible, and it does contain some trees and some 'community contributed' information that is unreliable. The 'community indexed' information is generally more reliable. However it is an index, not a primary source, so you need to check the original source for each bit of information to make sure.
Second, the concept of 'correct spelling' didn't really arise until the late 19th/early 20th century. The spelling was how the person writing down the name thought it should be spelled. So it is meaningless to ask if 'Thirlow' is a misspelling of 'Thurlow' or vice versa.
The International Genealogical Index lists the birth of Thirlow Fraser, mother Margaret Fraser, in the parish of Tyrie on 20 May 1859.
Interestingly, it lists three more. The son of George Fraser and Jean Ranken, born in the parish of Gamrie on 30 June 1841; son of William Fraser and Isobel Mitchell, born on 22 July 1858 in the parish of New Deer, and the son of Thurlow Fraser and Jane Cowie, born on 23 December 1863.
The census transcriptions at FreeCEN http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl list Thirlow Fraser, aged 15, as a male servant in the household of George Fraser, innkeeper, and his wife Jean and five children in the parish of Gamrie in Banffshire. So just three weeks after the census, Jean gave birth to a son who was named Thurlow.
In 1851 George Fraser, aged 37, innkeeper, born Fraserburgh, is listed in New Pitsligo, parish of Tyrie, with wife Jane and eight children including Thirlow, 9, born Mcduff (the town of Macduff is in the parish of Gamrie).
The 1851 lists a 25-year-old Thurlew Fraser, born Fraserburgh, working as a farm servant in the parish of New Deer.
According to the IGI William Fraser and Isobel Mitchell had seven of a family, all born in New Deer, and the 1851 census transcription at http://www.freecen.org.uk/cgi/search.pl lists at Land of Old What, parish of New Deer, William Fraser, aged 32, farm servant, born Fraserburgh, with wife Isobel and four children (of whom the eldest is not listed in the IGI).
Thurlow Fraser and Jane Cowie were married on 22 September 1860 in New Pitsligo.
So we have, so far, Th*rl*w Frasers linked to:
George Fraser, born 1813/14 in Fraserburgh
William Fraser, born 1818/9 in Fraserburgh
Thurlow Fraser, born 1825/6 in Fraserburgh
So far, everything points to Fraserburgh. The 1851 census lists seven Margaret Frasers born in Fraserburgh. Two can be discounted as too old to have a child in 1859. Three of them, aged 9, 10 and 12, are in the parish of Fraserburgh, and two, aged 19 and 28, are in the parish of Tyrie.
I speculate that the 19-year-old is the most likely candidate to be the mother of your Thurlow. However she is a domestic servant in 1851 and I have yet to find her in 1841.
Unfortunately the 1861 and 1871 censuses for Aberdeenshire are not yet available at FreeCEN, because the obvious thing to do is to look for your Thurlow and see if he is living with either his mother or possibly his grandparents. It is available on Scotland's People, which is a pay-per-view site. I have, however, looked at the index at SP, and I note with interest that there is a Thurlow Dunlop, aged 11, in Pitsligo in 1871. Could this be your Thurlow using his father's surname?
So, where do you go from here?
First, you should go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and invest in a few credits at modest cost. Use these to view and download image of the original birth certificate of Charles Fraser. I note that there is no listing of a marriage of Th*rl* to a Miss Skene, so it may be that Charles, like his father, was illegitimate and registered under his mother's surname.
You should also view Th*rl*w's own birth certificate. This will tell you where his mother lived at the time of his birth, and if you are very lucky the birth might have been registered by a grandparent, uncle or aunt.
If you think there is merit in my ramblings above, you could also view the originals of the various censues, birth/baptisms and marriages referred to above.
One source you should also investigate is whether the Tyrie Kirk Session had anything to say about the birth of an illegitimate child to Margaret Fraser. If so, they would almost certainly have obliged her to name the father. Unfortunately the KS minutes are not available online, so you would need to hire a professional searcher, or find a kind volunteer who is going to the National Archives Records of Scotland or one of the other archives that has these available, to take a look on your behalf.
Happy hunting!
Edit: My reply crossed with Gadget's above. However I will leave mine to stand, as I have come to a slightly different conclusion from hers. Given that there is a birth certificate of a Th*rl*w Fraser to Margaret Fraser in 1859, which matches the original information you provided, I think you would need more evidence to deduce that the son of William F and Isobel Mitchell is your one.
Tyrie and New Deer are neighbouring parishes. See
Oldwhat http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8651
New Pitsligo http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8855
which are less than 5 kilometres from one another.
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Hi Forfarian :)
I'd be interested in your view of my theory of Thirlow/Thurlow - I did look at Charles's birth cert so had more info to go on.
Gadget
(he was in the right place at the right time! )
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I'd be interested in your view of my theory of Thirlow/Thurlow - I did look at Charles's birth cert so had more info to go on. (he was in the right place at the right time! )
He was indeed, and it is perfectly possible, but one still has to eliminate the illegitimate son of Margaret Fraser, who matches daisypetals' original information and may be in the census as Dunlop. I don't have enough spare credits to cover all the possibilities. If I had, I would look at the marriage of Thurlow Dunlop in (New) Aberdour in 1885 and see who his mother was.
South Auchedly http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8932 is over 20 kilometres from New Pitsligo.
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Incidentally I see that Thurlow Dunlop, aged 41, born Scotland, is in the 1901 census of Lisgar, Manitoba, Canada with wife Annie, two children born in Scotland and five born in Canada. A Thurlow Dunlop, aged 75, died in Manitoba on 4 May 1936, date of birth stated as 26 May 1860. There is no matching birth in the SP index, or in the IGI. The only Thurlow Dunlop born in Scotland was born in 1886 in Aberdeenshire, and the eldest son of this family in Canada is Thurlow, aged 15. Thurlow Dunlop, son of Thurlow Dunlop and Annie Ross, born January 1886 in Aberdeen, died in Vancouver on 29 July 1977.
So if the Thurlow Dunlop married in 1885 to Annie Ross is the son of Margaret Fraser, I think this would nail him.
However it wouldn't prove that he was the father of Elsie Skene's son Charles, and I agree that the coincidence of addresses makes it look likely that it was the son of William Fraser and Isobel Mitchell who fathered Charles. In which case, daisypetals' original information must have been incorrect, and we need to know why (s)he thinks that his/her Thurlow Fraser was Margaret Fraser's illegitimate son.
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So if the Thurlow Dunlop married in 1885 to Annie Ross is the son of Margaret Fraser, I think this would nail him.
OK - took the hint ;D
The marriage - July 17 1885, Aberdour
Thurlow Dunlop. Blacksmith, living Pitsligo
Parents - John Dunlop (clerk) and Margaret Fraser afterwards Imlak
So, if Thurlow Fraser/Dunlop was a blacksmith in 1885, I don't think he was likely to be a farm servant in 1881 and,I think, that Charles Fraser's father was the Thirlow, son of William - or someone that we've not yet found!
Gadget
PS - I see that Therlow Dunlop was a blacksmith on the 1881 in New Maud, New Deer
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In for a penny, in for a few credits :-X
I find Thirlow Fraser, 42, b. Scotland with wife Mary, 36, b. Scotland and 4 children in Elswick, Wesgate, Newcastle upon Tyne in 1901 - RG13/4774/57/. A daughter, Elsibella/Isabella is listed. In 1891 - Westgate, N upon T - RG12/4200/136/26
Tracing back, there is a marriage between a Thirlow Fraser, farm servant, aged 25, living Old Deer and Mary Park, aged 19, on 22 Nov 1884, Belhelvie. His parents are given as William Fraser, Ag Lab and Isabella, m.s. Mitchell.
Gadget
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Allowing for some awful transcription (b. New Queen, Aberdeenshire) , I think this is him in Newcastle in the later census:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XWM4-5RM
Gadget
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Good stuff, Gadget. I am now quite convinced that Charles Fraser's father must have been Thurlow son of William and Isabella, as you say. However we still don't know why daisypetals said he was the illegitimate son of Margaret Fraser.
The marriage of Margaret Fraser to Mr Imlach would clinch her identity, of course. I am willing to bet that she is related to George, William and Thurlow, all of whom were born in Fraserburgh, and that all the Thurlow Frasers, and Thurlow Dunlop, are related to one another.
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Thankyou so much Gadget and Forfarian! :) :)
I am very much a novice at geneaology and am so impressed at how you both came up with so much information. This is wonderful!
First, I didn't mean to imply that Margaret had Thirlow illegitimately. The sketchy info that I saw didn't list a father's name.
Interesting that Thirlow Dunlop was a blacksmith. Charles Fraser was also a blacksmith in Grosse Isle Manitoba.
What is confusing is the spelling of the name Thurlow (Thirlow or Thurlew, or...). When a person is trying to chase and nail down information, the names change and it makes like chasing a rabbit in the bushes. Also, confusing is the changing of partners. I gather that Thirlow and Elspet (Elsie) didn't last as a relationship much past the birth of Charles.
I am looking at all the above information and trying to fit the pieces into what I have gotten.
Of interest, I saw somewhere, cannot remember, that there was a Margaret Fraser who came to Manitoba and died there in the early 1900s. I wonder if this is the same Margaret Fraser (Dunlop) that had Thirlow. If it is, it makes sense then that he changed his name from Dunlop to Fraser if she came alone and was still going by Fraser.
The tie to William Fraser and Isobel Mitchell is one that I did investigate before and it seems to be valid, too. I will have to see where their child Thirlow ended up. If he ended up in Canada and in Manitoba, I will have to seriously look at him, too.
If you two have anymore info. I would love to have it.
Take care
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According to the certificate that Gadget looked at, Margaret Fraser had married a Mr Imlah, and the IGI lists the marriage as Margaret Dunbar Fraser to James Imlah in 1863 in Aberdeen. A Margaret Imlah or Fraser died in Scotland in 1904, aged 66. You would have to check that this one's death certificate matches the one in the marriage certificate of course, but it looks very likely that this is the mother of Charles Fraser. If she is, and assuming that her age on the death certificate is accurate, she was born in 1837/8, and she did not emigrate to Canada.
According to the IGI, Margaret Dunbar Fraser and James Imlach had four children
Joan Bonna Fraser, born 5 September 1864 in Keith
Margaret Thomson Fraser, born 20 March 1867 in Keith
Jane Fraser Imlah, born 11 November 1868, birth registered both in Strichen and in Abernethy and Kincardine
James, born 30 May 1871 in Abernethy and Kincardine
William Forsyth, born 29 June 1874 in Abernethy and Kincardine
but there could be more because the IGI stops at 1874/5.
Unfortunately I don't have access to my 1881 census CD-ROM just now, but when I do I'll look them up and check Margaret's birthplace.
daisypetals, you wrote, I didn't mean to imply that Margaret had Thirlow illegitimately.
The absence of a father's name on a birth certificate always indicates that the child was illegitimate. The law assumes that the father of the child of a married woman is the husband, unless the woman specifically declares that he is not. So you didn't have to imply it or otherwise, it was perfectly obvious from the entry in the IGI.
What is confusing is the spelling of the name Thurlow (Thirlow or Thurlew, or...).
Just be thankful you are not trying to cope with the 53 documented ways of spelling the surname 'Taylor' then. Or the almost uncountable ways of spelling MacDonald or MacGregor. In 'Scotland's People' use 'th*rl*' and it will pick up all the spelling variants.
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According to the certificate that Gadget looked at, Margaret Fraser had married a Mr Imlah, and the IGI lists the marriage as Margaret Dunbar Fraser to James Imlah in 1863 in Aberdeen. A Margaret Imlah or Fraser died in Scotland in 1904, aged 66. You would have to check that this one's death certificate matches the one in the marriage certificate of course, but it looks very likely that this is the mother of Charles Fraser. If she is, and assuming that her age on the death certificate is accurate, she was born in 1837/8, and she did not emigrate to Canada.
I think you m^e^an that she was the mother of the other Thurrlow/Thirlow Dunlop/Fraser (who was not Charles' father)
daisypetal - Margaret was not Charles Fraser's grandmother, she was his great aunt.
According to the IGI, Margaret Dunbar Fraser and James Imlach had four children
Joan Bonna Fraser, born 5 September 1864 in Keith
Margaret Thomson Fraser, born 20 March 1867 in Keith
Jane Fraser Imlah, born 11 November 1868, birth registered both in Strichen and in Abernethy and Kincardine
James, born 30 May 1871 in Abernethy and Kincardine
William Forsyth, born 29 June 1874 in Abernethy and Kincardine
but there could be more because the IGI stops at 1874/5.
Unfortunately I don't have access to my 1881 census CD-ROM just now, but when I do I'll look them up and check Margaret's birthplace.
1881
Boat of Garten, Duthil, Inverness
James Imlah, 43, railway brakeman, b. ? , Aberdeenshire
Margrat, w, 42, b. Fraserburgh
Margrat, d, 14, b. Keith
Jean R F, d, 11, b, Strichen
Hamish, s, 9, b. Abernethy - (assume this is James)
William F, s, 6, b. Abernethy
William Duff, boarder, 39, Assistant minister, b. Logierait
Gadget
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I think you man that she was the mother of the other Thurrlow/Thirlow Dunlop/Fraser (who was not Charles' father)
Yes. Slip of the brain.
James Imlah, 43, railway brakeman, b. ? , Aberdeenshire
Margrat, w, 42, b. Fraserburgh
Margrat, d, 14, b. Keith
Jean R F, d, 11, b, Strichen
Hamish, s, 9, b. Abernethy - (assume this is James)
William F, s, 6, b. Abernethy
William Duff, boarder, 39, Assistant minister, b. Logierait
So she was indeed born in Fraserburgh, in 1838/9.
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I can't find her on the IGI as yet - maybe I'll get out my credits out and see what her marriage cert has.
William was a lot older - 43 on the 1861.
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Margaret Fraser's parents were Alexander Fraser, forester and Christiana m.s. Burnett - both deceased by 1863.
daisypetal - you say The tie to William Fraser and Isobel Mitchell is one that I did investigate before and it seems to be valid, too. I will have to see where their child Thirlow ended up. If he ended up in Canada and in Manitoba, I will have to seriously look at him, too.
This is the most likely father of Charles Fraser and I found him married to Mary Park and living in Newcastle upon Tyne:
I find Thirlow Fraser, 42, b. Scotland with wife Mary, 36, b. Scotland and 4 children in Elswick, Wesgate, Newcastle upon Tyne in 1901 - RG13/4774/57/. A daughter, Elsibella/Isabella is listed. In 1891 - Westgate, N upon T - RG12/4200/136/26
Tracing back, there is a marriage between a Thirlow Fraser, farm servant, aged 25, living Old Deer and Mary Park, aged 19, on 22 Nov 1884, Belhelvie. His parents are given as William Fraser, Ag Lab and Isabella, m.s. Mitchell.
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I can't find her on the IGI as yet - maybe I'll get out my credits out and see what her marriage cert has.
William was a lot older - 43 on the 1861.
Yes. We have the given name Th*rl*w associated with
George Fraser, born 1813/14 in Fraserburgh
William Fraser, born 1818/9 in Fraserburgh
Thurlow Fraser, born 1825/6 in Fraserburgh
Margaret Fraser, born 1837/9 in Fraserburgh
None of whose baptisms are listed in the community indexed IGI.
Incidentally Thirlow Fraser, aged 80, died in Newcastle-upon-Tyne in 1940.
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:D
On the 1891 census, William F Fraser and Isabella are living in Longside.
Here is his death ~
Longside - William Findlay Fraser, married to Isabella Mitchell, died 21 February 1904. aged 88.
Parents - Alexander Fraser, forester and Christina m.s. Burnett
Margaret Fraser's parents were Alexander Fraser, forester and Christiana m.s. Burnett - both deceased by 1863.
So he was the brother of Margaret as you thought!
Gadget
arggggggggggh - laptop needs charging !
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So to summarise (if only to get things straight in my own mind).
We have several different Thurlow Frasers
(1) Born 1825/6 in Fraserburgh
(2) Born in the parish of Gamrie on 30 June 1841
(3) Born 22 July 1858 in the parish of New Deer
(4) Born on 20 May 1859 in the parish of Tyrie
(5) Born on 23 December 1863 in the parish of Ellon
No 1 married Jane Cowie. His son is No 5.
No 2 is the son of George Fraser, born 1813/4 in Fraserburgh, and Jean Rankin.
No 3 is the son of William Fraser, born 1819/9 in Fraserburgh. He was a farm servant. He had an illegitimate son, Charles Fraser, whose mother was Elspet Skene. Subsequently he married Mary Park and moved to England, and Thurlow died there in 1940.
No 4 was the illegitimate son of John Dunlop, clerk, and Margaret Fraser, who was born 1837/9 in Fraserburgh. He was known throughout his life as Thurlow Dunlop. He was a blacksmith. In 1885 he married Annie Ross. Their eldest son was named Thurlow, born 1886. The family emigrated to Manitoba in 1887, and Thurlow Sr died there in 1936.
No 5 was the son of No 1.
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Just done something similar:
Charles Fraser 1881
Parents - Elspet/Elsie Skene and Thirlow Fraser
Thirlow Fraser 1858
Parents - William Fraser and Isabella Mitchell
William Fraser 1818
Parents - Alexander Fraser and Christiana/Christina/ Christian Mitchell
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Having problems with laptop - charging on and off and connection is a bit iffy (Wester Ross!) - any chance of finding Charles Fraser on the 1891/1901 censuses, please.
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I am so glad that you two summarized this!! :) I was buried knee deep in notes.
This information has been very helpful. I am liking the William Fraser connection.
Just wondering about something. I have an Alexander Fraser being married to a Jean Bruce and then to a Christine Burnett. Is this the same Alexander Fraser, forester to Lord Saltoun who was married to a Catharine Thurlow with no issue? I read a story somewhere that she wanted the Thurlow name passed down via one of Alexander Fraser's, (forester) children. He had a Thurlow listed as one of his sons who had a son William.
I dug up in my notes another loose thread. It goes back to the Margaret Fraser possibility.
I have a Margaret Fraser born in 1839 in Tarves. Parents unknown. Child Thirlow? She married a George Mutch in 1860 and immigrated to Manitoba. A Thirlow Fraser was in Tarves in 1881 census.
Just curious. It might be a wrench thrown into the works.
sigh...it's like a jigsaw puzzle.
I do thankyou for your efforts. It is making my pile of notes shrink!
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Read about Thurlow Dunlop's life in a History of LaRiviere, Manitoba website. LaRiviere is near Winnipeg, Manitoba. He stayed with the name Thurlow Dunlop and established a family base there. He came there as a blacksmith.
Which brings me back to Charles Fraser who was also a blacksmith at a place north of Winnipeg, Manitoba called Grosse Isle.
Was being a blacksmith a common trade in Scotland in the late 1880's? Was it a trade readily available to farm servants and domestics?
I haven't any information on when he emigrated to Canada.
When he came here to Canada he married a Helen Harley Whittit Reid and had 11 children. Even though that he had a large and close family, there were no other "aunts and uncles or cousins" that the 11 children could ever remember associating with on his side of the family and apparently he was quite closed mouth about his parentage/family. Wonder why? Was it a big secret to be born on the 'wrong side of the blanket"?
So, what I have found here does help very much. Still, some questions do crop up.
Hoping to find some more answers as this is a very interesting challenge.
Thankyou! :)
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Hi again
Just wondering about something. I have an Alexander Fraser being married to a Jean Bruce and then to a Christine Burnett. Is this the same Alexander Fraser, forester to Lord Saltoun who was married to a Catharine Thurlow with no issue? I read a story somewhere that she wanted the Thurlow name passed down via one of Alexander Fraser's, (forester) children. He had a Thurlow listed as one of his sons who had a son William.
It would seem a strong possibility that it was the same one as Alexander is down as a forester. However, William was born in 1818 and Margaret was b. 1838 and Alexander and Christian/Christiana are both given as their parents, so Christian (variations) could have been a second wife.
Note that Thurlow Dunlop was the son of Charles Fraser's great aunt and, as such was not in a direct line to Charles. Thurlow Dunlop and Thirlow Fraser(son of William and Isabella) were first cousins.
I see that Charles was at 785 William Avenue, Winnipeg, Manitoba on the 1911. Emmigrated in 1908.
Did he marry Ellen Reid in 1912?
I see from the 1916 census of Manitoba, Sas, and Alb. that he and Nellie had daughters *M and *E
Have you managed to get hold of this marriage cert - if so, it should show hiw parents' names.
Gadget
* Added - as at least one of them is still alive, I've edited out their names
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I'm not sure that Alexander Fraser would have been related to the Saltoun Frasers though as "he died on 18 August 1853 at age 68, without issue" ( http://thepeerage.com/p3085.htm ).
Added - there's this tree on Family Search: not sure of the accuracy.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MNG7-46X
Other info suggests that she was the illegitimate daughter of the first Baron Thurlow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Thurlow,_1st_Baron_Thurlow and http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Thurlow,_Edward_%281731-1806%29_%28DNB00%29
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I'm not sure that Alexander Fraser would have been related to the Saltoun Frasers though as "he died on 18 August 1853 at age 68, without issue" ( http://thepeerage.com/p3085.htm ).
No, I don't think he was either. I just wanted to know if that Alexander Fraser, forester, was the same one that was forester for Lord Saltoun who had died with no issue with Catharine Thurlow. She was an illigitimate daughter of Baron Thurlow. That much I did find out in my searches of Thurlow.
This way, I can keep these Frasers straight and find out about Alexander Fraser, forester and who his parents were.
Interesting family as I pick up stories here and there, but I see there are two distinctly different branches. I am more interested in the Frasers from Aberdeenshire.
As for information of Charles Fraser's arrival in Canada, thankyou!
I haven't looked at his birth certificate yet. I do know that his parents are Thirlow Fraser and Elspet Skene. I just didn't know which Thirlow Fraser it was.
Yes, His first two children were girls and their names were (*) and (*) His wife's name was Helen, not Ellen and were together until he died in 1952.
(*) just had her 100th birthday party!(*) Moderator Comment:
Edited in accordance with RootsChat policy of not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living. This is to protect all concerned from spam, identity abuse, internet abuse, etc, etc.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
They were a happy, active and close family who all did well for themselves and they still have reunions as the direct family of Charles Fraser grew to over 75 direct descendents. Included were two grandsons who played professional hockey in the NHL.
Again, you two have been such a help. Thankyou!
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His wife's name was Helen, not Ellen
Helen (or Hellen) and Ellen are interchangeable, and both are often found as Nell or Nellie. You find people named Hel(l)en on their birth certificates turning up as Ellen in later records, and vice versa. So you can't really say with certainty 'Helen, not Ellen' or 'Ellen, not Helen'. Nell(ie) also turns up as an abbreviation for Eleanor.
The same applies to several other pairs of names: Janet/Jessie is the one that most often causes confusion. Then there's Jean/Jane, Donald/Daniel, Peter/Patrick. Occasionally an Elizabeth turns up as Beatrice (via Betty or Betsy) or Isabel(la), the latter being originally a Spanish version of Elizabeth.
See www.whatsinaname.net
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I have come to the realization that there are two separate Alexander Frasers that have been confused as being one and same. This is in the time period of 1804-6.
One Alexander Fraser born 1778 (Pitsligo?) was married to Jean Bruce and had two sons: Alexander born 1804 and George born 1806.
He couldn't have married Christian or Christina, Christine Burnett in Jan. 1806 when his wife Jean Bruce was present at their son's birth later in the year!!
This line seems to be fairly well documented even with the mix-up of Alexanders.
I would like information on the Alexander Fraser that married Christian Burnett. There was a Thurlow born to them. There are so many Alexander Frasers that I am going cross-eyed!
Still nagging at me, would like to have more information of the following, only because the spelling of Thirlow is correct:
Thirlow Fraser born 20th May 1859 Tyrie, Aberdeenshire. Only lists the mother Margaret Fraser.
There is a Margaret Fraser Born Jan. 1844 Skene, Aberdeen with a father named Findlay Fraser.
Coincidence that William Fraser's middle name is Findlay who married Isobel Mitchell?
Are they related?
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Hi daisypetal
I would like information on the Alexander Fraser that married Christian Burnett. There was a Thurlow born to them. There are so many Alexander Frasers that I am going cross-eyed!
Both Forfarian and I have been looking for Alexander Fraser and Christian Burnett details since the weekend but so far nothing has come up. None of their children are showing in the parish records so it is possible that there might not be anything for them. Information can be lost/destroyed/ etc. I recall that someone mentioned that only about 30% of parish records survive.
According to his daughter/son's records (already given), Alexander was a forester and dead on their certs.
Fraser is a very common surname and Alexander also a common forename. As far as ascertained their first child was born circa 1813 and the last one circa 1838.
If I find anything, I'll put up the details.
Gadget
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Still nagging at me, would like to have more information of the following, only because the spelling of Thirlow is correct
Please don't get hung up on spelling. In the early 19th century there was no such thing as 'correct' spelling. Just accept that there are several ways of spelling Th*rl*w, all of which are equally valid.
Thirlow Fraser born 20th May 1859 Tyrie, Aberdeenshire. Only lists the mother Margaret Fraser.
There is a Margaret Fraser Born Jan 1844 Skene, Aberdeen with a father named Findlay Fraser.
Coincidence that William Fraser's middle name is Findlay who married Isobel Mitchell?
Are they related?
Another excellent way to waste time is to speculate unnecessarily about possible relationships, especially when you are dealing with names as common as Fraser, Mitchell and Fin(d)lay. You know from the census that Margaret Fraser was born in Fraserburgh about 1838, so why speculate about someone born 5 or 6 years later than your Margaret, in a parish 40 miles distant, at the other side of the county from Fraserburgh, who would have been only 14 years old when Th*rl*w was conceived?
There is a very easy way to find out who Margaret Fraser's parents were. You know from the marriage certificate of her son Th*rl*w Dunlop that she married James Imlah, and from correspondence here that the marriage took place in Aberdeen in 1863. Go to Scotland's People and get that marriage certificate. It will tell you the full names of both parents of Margaret Fraser.
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Hi Forfarian :)
There is a very easy way to find out who Margaret Fraser's parents were. You know from the marriage certificate of her son Th*rl*w Dunlop that she married James Imlah, and from correspondence here that the marriage took place in Aberdeen in 1863.
Think I've already given this - I certainly have the marriage showing in my SP records :)
Margaret Fraser's parents were Alexander Fraser, forester and Christiana m.s. Burnett - both deceased by 1863.
Gadget
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PS
daisypetal - I'm not sure now if you've read all the information that we've given on this thread. It is sometimes difficult for newcomers to understand how Rootschat works.
Rather than read the e-mail notifications (where you might miss something) , could I suggest that you go to the top or bottom of this thread and click on the Print icon (see attached for details) and then save the resulting document to your computer and read it carefully. You'll then see all the information in one place.
Gadget
The thread is at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=659044.0
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Hi Forfarian :)
Think I've already given this - I certainly have the marriage showing in my SP records :)
Yes, sorry, this thread has got quite confusing - I forgot you had already paid for that certificate.
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As far as ascertained their first child was born circa 1813 and the last one circa 1838.
Have we actually ascertained that George Fraser, innkeeper, married to Jane/Jean Ranke/in, and father of one of the Th*rl*w Frasers (the one born 30 June 1841) was the son of Alexander Fraser and Christian Burnet(t)?
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Sorry - thought that you'd liked them but I see that it was the Thurlow association only. We've got evidence for William (c. 1818) and Margaret (c. 1838)though.
I can't find her on the IGI as yet - maybe I'll get out my credits out and see what her marriage cert has.
William was a lot older - 43 on the 1861.
Yes. We have the given name Th*rl*w associated with
George Fraser, born 1813/14 in Fraserburgh
William Fraser, born 1818/9 in Fraserburgh
Thurlow Fraser, born 1825/6 in Fraserburgh
Margaret Fraser, born 1837/9 in Fraserburgh
None of whose baptisms are listed in the community indexed IGI.
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Using 1 credit only, there's a death for a George Fraser, 1860, aged 46, Old Deer. Mother's mn Burnett - so looks likely
Gadget
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Found a tree online for George. b. 1814, Fraserburgh
Info given is
father - Alexander Fraser 1789 - 1848
mother - Chirstina Burnett 1789 -1860
I don't trust these trees but will explore and report back.
Got to sort out some missives though!
Gadget
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The tree lists their children as:
Alexander Dalrymple Fraser (1808 -1883)
John Fraser (1810-1875)
George Fraser (1814-1860)
William Findlay Fraser (1816-1904)
Donald Fraser (1820-1883)
Isabella Fraser (1821-1883)
Mary Fraser (1824)
No Margaret - if Christina was b. 1789, she'd be just about within range for a late child.
The tree also has parents for Alexander.
No proof for this at the moment.
The Tree would be available via Mundia.com
Gadget
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No proof for this at the moment.
No. I am always suspicious of online trees, and especially of trees that have both parents born in the same year. That one requires both to be aged 18/19 at the time of the birth of the first child. Possible, but very unlikely, and would just about rule out the possibility that Alexander was the widower of Catherine Thurlow or anyone else.
Actually, if the date of marriage of Catherine Thurlow to Alexander George Fraser in the IGI is correct - 1815 - Alexander cannot be her widower because we know from the census and his probable death certificate that innkeeper George was born before 1815. And at least one online source http://www.pcuk.net/sinclairwillis/getperson.php?personID=I448&tree=main names the husband of Catherine Thurlow as Lord Alexander George Fraser KT KCB and gives her date of death as 1826. Another one http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I205339&tree=EuropeRoyalNobleHous names her husband as 16th Lord Saltoun. So it looks as if, whoever the Alexander was who was married to Christian Burnet(t), he wasn't the one married to Catherine Thurlow!
Not sure where the marriage date of 1806 came from - it isn't in the IGI as far as I can see - but if Christian was born in 1789 that would mean she was married exceptionally young for that time. On the other hand, if she wasn't unusually young when she married, she could not have had Margaret in the late 1830s.
There isn't a death of a Ch* B*rn*t or Fraser in 1860 or anywhere near in the SP index. And I have failed, so far, to find either Alexander or Christian in the 1841 census, or Christian in the 1851, in Scotland.
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There isn't a death of a Ch* B*rn*t or Fraser in 1860 or anywhere near in the SP index. And I have failed, so far, to find either Alexander or Christian in the 1841 census, or Christian in the 1851, in Scotland.
Same here - I've looked at all the known sources. I did find a Christian Fraser on the 1841 in Fraserburgh, aged 40 (-44) with a Margaret Fraser, aged 12. She is down as an Female Servant (F.S.) so not sure it's them. Not finding Margaret on the early cenuses at the moment - have used Marg*t Fra*er.
Could I stress, yet again to daisypetal, that Margaret was Charles Fraser's great aunt - sister to William - and therefore not a direct line.
Gadget
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Another thought:
1851
Land of Oldwhat, New Deer
William Chalmers, 33, farmer of 140 acres arable. b. New Deer
....
.....
Margaret Fraser, serv, unm, 20, House servant, b. Fraserburgh
The other two Margarets showing on the 1851, b. Fraserburgh don't seem to fit.
1861
Aden Arms Inn, Deer
Jane Fraser, wid., 52, innkeeper and farmer, b. Strichen ( this looks like George's widow?)
...
....
Margaret Fraser, serv, unm, 31, waiting maid, b. Fraserburgh
Could Margaret have manipulated her age to bring her more into line with James Imlah's age (both 26 on marriage cert). If so, then the 12 year old Margaret with Christian on the 1841 might be her!
Gadget
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Another thought:
1851
Land of Oldwhat, New Deer
Margaret Fraser, serv, unm, 20, House servant, b. Fraserburgh
1861
Aden Arms Inn, Deer
Jane Fraser, wid., 52, innkeeper and farmer, b. Strichen ( this looks like George's widow?)
Margaret Fraser, serv, unm, 31, waiting maid, b. Fraserburgh
Looking good. The 1851 age would give DoB 1830/1 and the 1861 would give 1829/30, both of which are more plausible for the birth of Christian's youngest child than 8 or 9 years later.
Could Margaret have manipulated her age to bring her more into line with James Imlah's age (both 26 on marriage cert). If so, then the 12 year old Margaret with Christian on the 1841 might be her!
Good thinking. And she continued to massage the truth in the later censuses.
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The 1841 could very well be Christian and Margaret - I've looked at the 1841 again and the address is North Lodge, Philorth, Fraserburgh. It's between Kirkton and the Toll Bar
Christian Fraser, 40, F.S.
Richard, 15
Isabella, 20
Margt, 12
All born Aberdeenshire
Note that in the 1841, those aged 15 and over were supposed to be grouped into 5 year age bands - thus 15 = 15-19; 20 = 20-24; 40 = 40-44
Full ref - 1841 196/00 005/00 013
This suggests that Alexander might well have been a forester on the Saltoun estate at Philorth!
Isabella is in one of the trees - married Peter Mitchell 26 Feb 1842 and died 12 July 1883. Nothing seems to be shown for Richard.
Approx location of North Lodge, Philorth ~
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0vxo/
(Forfarian - I expect you'll be able to find a map and photo :D )
Gadget
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Hmm. Isabella's death certificate ought to nail that.
(Forfarian - I expect you'll be able to find a map and photo :D )
Map is no problem http://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ9964 - North Lodge is represented by the little pink rectangle where the track from Philorth House meets the main road.
A photograph might take a little longer - I see that there's rather a dearth of images in that square, and in the neighbouring ones. I'll see what can be done about it.
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I've been looking too but I got lots of pics of Fraserburgh beach!
There is a marriage/banns showing on SP for Christn Burnet and Alexr Fraser in Fraserburgh 19 Jan 1806.
I also note that there was a George Burnett given as father to a son, Charly, in Fraserburgh in 1794. This would be after the stamp duty for BMBs was removed - maybe Christian wasn't entered in the registers because of this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stamp_Duties_Act_1783
http://www.euppublishing.com/doi/abs/10.3366/jshs.2010.0005
Gadget
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Curiously, SP has only 93 baptisms of Frasers in Fraserburgh before 1854 (and the IGI has only 23 community indexed ones), none with mother named B*rnet*. Given that FreeCEN finds 62 people born in Fraserburgh in 1851 alone, there must be an awful lot of missing ones.
I have been wondering whether they might have been episcopalians, but I have no idea what episcopalian registers (if any) are still extant and if so where they are.
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...and for completeness:
Death 12 July 1883 at 34 Hanover Street, Fraserburgh
Isabella Mitchell, Pauper (formerly Washerwoman). Widow of Peter Mitchell, meal miller.
Aged 64
Parents - Alexander Fraser, joiner (!) and Christina M.S. Burnett. Both deceased.
Cause - Abdominal cancer. 1 1/2 years. cert. by Wm. Beddie (?) M.B. C.M.
Informant - John Mitchell, Son. Elgin
So, it looks like the 1841 family were indeed Christian and her 2 remaining daughters and Richard (nothing on him after 1841 so far).
Gadget
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Hi there -I was greatly amused to find that people have been discussing the very minutiae that I have been hurting my head on for weeks... Christina Burnett was (very probably) my 5th Great grandmother. I would love to head further up to find their parents , but haven't been having too much luck with that.
I recently found a thread from 2001 where someone explained the source of the name Thurlow (Jim Shirer was the source). The explanation given was "Alexander Fraser was the head forester in the first quarter of the 19th century at the Philorth Estate, Fraserburgh. His employer was Sir George Fraser, later 16th Lord Saltoun. Sir George had married Catherine Thurlow, one of three illegitimate daughters of the Lord Chancellor Edward Thurlow (1731-1806) who was later 1st Baron Thurlow. Sir George and Lady Catherine had no family, so she asked Alexander when his seventh son was born to call him Thurlow."
It further went on to describe Alexander Fraser as having married twice firstly to Jean Bruce 17 July 1803 & secondly to Christina Burnett 19 January 1806. I can't see this as Jean Bruce had a child in Oct of that year (Although in life anything is possible). I see a lot of people use the Alexander Fraser/ Chrstn Burnett 1806 marriage document. I don't think this is Christina Burnett, so, I'm not sure if Alexander Fraser that married Jean Bruce also married Christina Burnett later than 1806 (and we just don't have the certificate).
Christina Fraser nee Burnett is listed as the mother on the death certificates of George 1814-60/ William Findlay 1816 – 1904 and Thurlow Fraser 1825 – 1889. Alexander Fraser's occupation on each of these is described as Forester (WFF), Gamekeeper (TF) and Wright (GF).
I believe that the Alexander Fraser on the certificates was born at Headroom Farm of Pittendrum, which is a short distance from the Philorth Estate (Frasers of Philorth) where Alexander was forester/ game keeper. This estate was the one that George Fraser and the illegitimate Thurlow story seems to come from.
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:) Yes, it is all rather mysterious!
I was wondering what did Catherine Thurlow die of in 1825? Seems interesting a Thurlow pops up born in that year. ;)
Especially mysterious when I read of her husband's exploits as a soldier who rarely was home. Gone for many months at a time, sometimes over a year.
Funny, that her name was rarely, if ever mentioned after she died. Husband considered her "his dearest Catharine" in his letters to her before her death; went on to talk about other women in his book soon after her death.
Just speculating....
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daisypetals01, I was curious about the Margaret Fraser & George Mutch marriage so I downloaded the certificate. George was the son of the late George Mutch, also a blacksmith, & Elizabeth nee Bisset. Margaret's parents were James Fraser,blacksmith & Susan, nee Johnstone.
flst
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There's an announcement in "The Aberdeen Journal" of James Imlah & Margaret Dunbar Fraser's marriage. I quote "youngest daughter of the late Alexander Fraser,Forester to the late Lord Saltoun, Philorth"
:)
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:) Thankyou!
Like putting pieces of a quilt together, every little bit of information helps. A thread can lead to a treasure trove of information and facts. I found this out when I was researching the Smiths.
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Hi The names of Jane Cowie and Thurlow Fraser have caught my attention as my family is trying to resolve a link into the Fras(z)er family in Scotland.
My wife's great grandfather is Alick Cowie Frazer according to the marriage certificate and the name Frazer has been spelt with a Z. We have hunted for this relative and can find nothing - however recently we contacted a relative, Michael Fraser, who has in his possession an old bible with the name Alex Cowie Fraser in the front cover and an old newspaper clipping of Jane Cowie's funeral (see attached). I'm sure those discussing this will find these interesting. Alick (or Alexander) Cowie Frazer seems to have been born in Scotland about 1860 and came to South Africa where he married Louisa Godden. He then disappeared after the birth of their 2nd son Thurlow John Frazer, and Louisa remarried a John Herbert Eaton. Their marriage certificate shows her as a widow. The two young children Charles Alick Frazer (my wife's grandfather) and Thurlow John Frazer were raised by the Goddens and the Eatons.
A further relative (Jennifer Frazer, a 2nd cousin) has come into the picture who is also looking for answers to Alick Cowie Frazer. She has done some DNA tests which are currently showing up Cowie relatives.
I, and Jennifer, are becoming convinced that it is possible that Jane Cowie might have had a son, Alexander, before marrying Thurlow Fraser and that this son was adopted by Thurlow hence having the name Fraser. He is, however, not listed in the children of Jane and Thurlow on FamilySearch.
What we are speculating now is the following:
Our cousin Michael Fraser says his granddad Charles Alick Frazer said that his dad Alick Cowie Fraser apparently left to go to the Rand goldfields and never returned.
Michael also sent us a postcard of the Denburn Mill with the following comment - A postcard of Denburn Mills, written by Auntie Joannie informing that Uncle Frank and all the Fraser family were born at the mill. (I have no idea who these are and will need to get more info from Michael).
From what Michael has sent us (bible contents) we can now assume some things:
1. Alick Cowie Fraser on the bible pages is Alex which has to be Alexander - he used Alick on the marriage certificate.
2. The name should definitely be spelled with S. - Michael wrote, "My Dad told me once that Grandad was so angry that Grandma Eaton had spelt Fraser wrong on his and my Dad's birth certificate".
3. Alick Cowie possibly died (before 1890) on the goldfields (or wherever) as the marriage cert of Louisa to John Eaton says she is a widow. We still have to find his birth records to link him into the Scottish family
4. The newspaper clipping is very interesting. The Jane Cowie funeral is on 14 July 1917 (assuming July and 1917 from the other notices above). Jane Cowie the widow. Why is her name given as Cowie and not Fraser? Could this be our Alex Cowie Fraser's father and mother?
5. The address on the bible looks like 14 Handover Street, Fraserburgh. Looking up on Google Maps this is right in the middle of New Pitsligo.
6. So far the DNA results that Jenny Frazer is getting are pointing to Cowie cousins. So possibly Alick Cowie was not a Fraser but a Cowie.
Hopefully this is of use to you researchers and we can solve our riddle through your knowledge.
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Hi Garthkh, and welcome to RootsChat.
First if all, don't assume that spelling is important. Until the early 20th century it wasn't. Alick Cowie Frazer is undoubtedly the same as Alick Cowie Fraser. There's no such thing as 'correct' spelling, though Fraser is commoner than Frazer.
Secondly, don't rely on Google maps for anything serious.
New Pitsligo is mostly in the parish of Tyrie, which is south-west of the parish of Fraserburgh, though there is apparently a small part of New Pitsligo which is in the parish of New Deer. There is a Hanover Street in Fraserburgh (it's quite a common street name) so there is no reason to think that this address is in New Pitsligo, 12 miles away. If you have read this thread carefully you will have noticed another mention of someone who died in Hanover Street, Fraserburgh.
See https://www.streetmap.co.uk/map?x=399560&y=867065&z=110&sv=hanover+street&st=6&tl=Map+of+Hanover+Street,+Fraserburgh,+Aberdeenshire,+AB43&searchp=ids&mapp=map
Yes, Alick and Alex are both used as abbreviations for Alexander.
In Scotland, a married woman does not lose her maiden surname. It is customary to include her maiden surname on gravestones and in newspaper death announcements. In legal documents she would be named as Jane Cowie or Fraser.
In the 1861 census, Thurlaw Fraser, aged 34, married, miller journeyman, is at Little Mill in Ellon.
In the 1861 census, at Backhill, New Pitsligo, are
James Cowie, 60, farmer
Agnes Cowie, wife, 60
Jane Fraser, daughter, married, 26, miller's wife
Agnes Duff, granddaughter 5
Alex Fraser, Grandson, 8 months
all born in New Pitsligo except James and Agnes senior, who were born in Aberdour and New Deer respectively.
Alexander Cowie, son of Jane Cowie, was born in New Pitsligo on 23 July 1860.
So he looks very likely to be your Alexander Cowie Fraser.
In 1871 the family are at 54 Low Street, New Pitsligo:
Thurlow Fraser, 44; Jane, 33; Agnes, 15; Alexander, 11; Thurlow, 7; Jane, 5; Margaret, 3.
Agnes Cowie, born 26 April 1855, mother Jane Cowie, is presumably listed under her father's surname, Duff, in 1861, but in 1871 she is listed under har stepfather's name.
There are quite a lot of Backhills but I think the one where your Cowies were is here https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8655 - Double-click on the map, then single-click again, to zoom in.
It's also on the mid-19th century map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.1&lat=57.59383&lon=-2.21633&layers=5&b=1&marker=57.57130,-2.26079
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In the 1861 census, at Backhill, New Pitsligo, are
James Cowie, 60, farmer
Agnes Cowie, wife, 60
Jane Fraser, daughter, married, 26, miller's wife
Agnes Duff, granddaughter 5
Alex Fraser, Grandson, 8 months
Same family in 1871
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026e98e9379091b1ea9bfc/thirlow-fraser-1871-aberdeenshire-new-pitsligo-1827-?locale=en
This is the birth record that you are after, available from Scotlands People
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
COWIE, ALEXANDER
M
1860
227/B 61
New Pitsligo
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Neale1961
Thank you for this.
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Thank you for this information. This info is starting to open up a lot of detail.
I see these census records aren't showing Denburn Mills. Do these mills fall under a group?
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I am adding a link to the 1861 census that Forfarian quoted, because it is so interesting.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026b4be9379091b1dce161/james-cowie-1861-aberdeenshire-new-pitsligo-1800-?locale=en
You will see that Jane Fraser (nee Cowie) also has a daughter Agnes who has the surname Duff in this census, and the surname Fraser in the 1871 census.
Agnes was born 26 April 1855 New Deer. When she marries she names her father as James Duff, farm servant and mother Jane Cowie, married to Thurlow Fraser, miller.
This is your Cowie family in the 1841 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a13ffdcf4040b9d6ee3a403/james-cowie-1841-aberdeenshire-new-deer-1800-?locale=en
and in 1851
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5902666ae9379091b1c8d71c/agnes-cowie-1851-aberdeenshire-new-deer-1800-?locale=en
In 1851 Jane Cowie was working as a Servant in a house in Fraserburgh
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/590265c6e9379091b1c63823/jane-cowie-1851-aberdeenshire-fraserburgh-1835-?locale=en
Your Alexander Cowie Fraser was born 23 July 1860 in New Pitsligo.
Jane Cowie and Thurlow Fraser were married on 22 Sept 1860 in New Pitsligo.
From the marriage record: Thurlow’s parents were Alexander Fraser, square wright deceased, and Christian Burnett (Bennett? )deceased. Janes parents were James Cowie farmer and Agnes Clyne
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This is so interesting. Thank you. The family will be thrilled to look through these records.
It's amazing how we have had this brick wall for years and then the Bible ,and the newspaper clipping turned up, and has opened up what seems to be the really family links that we couldn't find.
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This is Thurlow Fraser in the 1851 census
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5902666be9379091b1c8dc73/thurlew-fraser-1851-aberdeenshire-new-deer-1826-?locale=en
and in 1861
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026919e9379091b1d3d90b/thurlaw-fraser-1861-aberdeenshire-ellon-1827-?locale=en
Thurlow Fraser died 23 Oct 1889 New Pitsligo. Parents are named on death certificate and agree with marriage, except that his father’s occupation given was “game keeper”
Alexander Fraser and Christian Burnett were married 19 Jan 1806 Fraserburgh.
This would seem to be Thurlow Fraser in 1841
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14280cf4040b9d6e12ef4e/thirlow-fraser-1841-banffshire-gamrie-1826-?locale=en
It seems likely that Thurlow’s parents were deceased before 1841. The head of house will be an uncle to Thurlow (George born 1814 Fraserburgh), and the Mary Burnett could be a relation on his mother’s side.
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Jane (Cowie) Fraser died 14 July 1917 New Pitsligo.
Jane Cowie’s baptism record from Scotlands People:
COWIE, Jane 05/02/1837 new Deer
Parents: James Cowie and Agnes Clynne
Ref 30 248
Her parents James and Agnes married 7 April 1821 New Deer.
James Cowie died 18 April 1866 New Pitsligo
Agnes (Clyne) Cowie died 9 June 1876 New Pitsligo
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I see these census records aren't showing Denburn Mills. Do these mills fall under a group?
I imagine the mill was named Denburn Mill, because it was situated on the small stream called “Den Burn”.
See the information on the old Ordinance Survey that Den Burn and the Corn Mill are recorded together in Parish of Tyrie [New Pitsligo]. Scroll down the page to the bottom to find the link to the map
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/aberdeenshire-os-name-books-1865-1871/aberdeenshire-volume-90/39
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In the 1851 census the address for James Cowie and family is "Backhill Of Overhill", New Deer.
(Edited)
This is Little Mill in Ellon where Thurlow Fraser was working at time of 1861 census.
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/aberdeenshire-os-name-books-1865-1871/aberdeenshire-volume-29/148
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In the 1851 census the address for James Cowie and family is "Backhill Of Overhill", New Deer.
So it is. In which case it's not the Backhill in the parish of New Pitsligo that I found earlier.
In 1851 it's in Enumeration District no 2 of New Deer, along with Affath, Nether Affath, Weetingshill, Backhill (of) Weetingshill, Auchouch, Meikle Auchouch, Sandbridge, Wellhowe, Doghillock, Brownhill, Henscroft on Brownhill, Skelliebogs, Overhill, Backhill of Overhill, and Whitehill.
In 1861 it's in Enumeration District No 7 of New Pitsligo, along with Broomhill, Cranhill, Ironside, Upper Ironside, Overhill, Smithy, Dog Hillock and Back Hill, all of which are in the ecclesiastical parish of New Deer, and Craigculter, Red House, Achnary, Lambhill and Whitehill, all of which are in the ecclesiastical parish of Strichen.
The really striking thing about these lists is how few of the names are the same in both censuses, apart from Doghillock. Look at this map https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.0&lat=57.56539&lon=-2.18845&layers=5&b=1&marker=57.57130,-2.26079 which shows Doghillock over to the right. Above and to the left is Broomhill, and left again is Overhill, printed vertically up what is the edge of a map sheet. Left again is Brownhill. Down from Brownhill is Ironside, including Backhill of Ironside. So is Back Hill the same as Backhill of Overhill in 1851 and Backhill of Ironside in 1861?
This is it on a modern map https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ8751 - click on the map and move it about to see Doghillock, Overhill etc.
Some information from the Ordance Survey
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/aberdeenshire-os-name-books-1865-1871/aberdeenshire-volume-08/49
Unfortunately that is the wrong Backhill - it's in the parish of Belhelvie, which is on the coast well south of the area we're looking at. Here it is on a modern map https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NJ9318.
There are places called Backhill in 33 different parishes in Aberdeenshire alone, and in at least one parish in ten other counties. And that doesn't include the ones where the name is split to make it Back Hill - there are only 19 parishes with one of those in the whole of Scotland.
This is Little Mill in Ellon where Thurlow Fraser was working at time of 1861 census.
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/aberdeenshire-os-name-books-1865-1871/aberdeenshire-volume-29/148
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=758930.0 for a bit of background.
Did you notice that there's yet another Backhill, Backhill of Ardlethen, just up and left from Littlemill of Esslemont?
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Neale1961. How can we see that Thurlow worked at the Little Mill, Ellon? I can't see his name on the record in your link. I'm a bit confused with these records.
Have we also got any census records for Thurlow before he marries Jane Cowie. Who are his parents? I presume Thurlow was in the house and we can see who the head of house is. Jane's census records are clear as to who is all in the house.
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Are you looking at the correct census record?
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026919e9379091b1d3d90b/thurlaw-fraser-1861-aberdeenshire-ellon-1827-?locale=en
He is recorded as a servant and Miller journeyman. (Scroll down the page)
Address is Little Mill, Ellon.
I think this is probably the same place as "Littlemill of Esslemont", which was his address when he married.
I'm happy to help if you explain what you are confused about. ??
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Re-posting…
Thurlow Fraser died 23 Oct 1889 New Pitsligo. Parents are named on his death certificate and agree with those named on his marriage.
Thurlows parents ….
Alexander Fraser and Christian Burnett were married 19 Jan 1806 Fraserburgh.
This would seem to be Thurlow Fraser in 1841. (1841 is the earliest census.)
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14280cf4040b9d6e12ef4e/thirlow-fraser-1841-banffshire-gamrie-1826-?locale=en
It seems likely that Thurlow’s parents were deceased before 1841.
The head of house is probably a brother to Thurlow (George born 1814 Fraserburgh),
and the Mary Burnett could be a relation on his mother’s side.
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These records are obtainable through Scotlands People
1860 Marriage Certificate - Statutory Marriages 227/B12
Sept. 22, 1860 - New Pitsligo, Aberdeen, Scotland
Thurlow Fraser 36, Residence: Littlemill of Esslemont, Aberdeenshire - he was a meal miller - father: Alexander Fraser, square wright, master (deceased) - Mother: Christina Fraser Burnett (Deceased)
Jane Cowie 22, residence: Blackhill, New Pitsligo, Aberdeenshire - father: James Cowie, farmer - Mother Agnes Clyne.
Witnesses: Jas Thomson, Wm Brown
1889 Death Certificate – Statutory Deaths 227/B33
Thurlow Fraser – Meal miller Journeyman – Married to Jane Cowie
23 Oct 1889 – 1h,15m AM – 61 Low Street, New Pitsligo (Tyrie)
Male – 63 years
Father – Alexander Fraser, game keeper deceased; Mother - Christina Fraser MS Burnett
Ulcers of Stomach – 1 month – As certified by Geo Rae MD
Maggie Fraser – daughter present
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Neale1961
Thank you for these. We have a cousin returning to the UK this week. She has a credits with Scotlands People and can search and download these certificates.
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Re Alexander Fraser and Christina Burnett's daughter, Margaret Dunbar Fraser.
When she married James Imlah, her address was 9 St Nicholas Street, Aberdeen. This was the St Nicholas Hotel, and it is likely that she was working there. The hotel was run by John Bonner, and this seems to be the origin of the name given to Joan 'Bonna'. 'Bonna' will have been a mishearing by the registrar.
James Imlah was a farm servant, who became a railway guard between 1861 and 1863. He was killed in an accident at Carron Station, Knockando, in 1881.
Of their children,
Joan (Johanna) Bonner married Neil Weir in 1893. He was overseer of the Ormidale estate at Kilmodan, Argyll. Joan died there in 1925.
Margaret Thomson Smith Fraser did not marry. However, she had five children: James Alexander Imlah, b. 1892; John Reilly Imlah, b. 1894; Andrew George Hume Imlah, b. 1902; Henry Hume Imlah, b. 1904; Melvin Duguid Innes Imlah, b. 1906. Margaret died in 1940
Jane (Jeannie) did not marry. However, she had a son, Donald Cameron Grant, b. 1903. She died in 1943.
James worked on the railways. He married Margaret Junor in 1906. She died in 1939. James died in 1961.
William Forsyth worked on the railways, then was clerk and later manager at a distillery. He married Isabella Geddes in 1896. She died in 1950. William died in 1954.
I am related to Margaret Fraser's husband, James Imlah.
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We have downloaded Thurlow Fraser's death notice and we've also got a copy of the 1871 Census. Can anyone tell us why Thurlow's name would be give as Sherton on the census? See attached.
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Can anyone tell us why Thurlow's name would be give as Sherton on the census? See attached.
Because what you have got is from Ancestry.
That is not the census. It's transcription of the census, and a typical example of the poor transcriptions for which Ancestry is notorious. You need to view the original, available only at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (for a small fee).
Though it's actually not surprising they got it wrong as it's very hard to read the original.
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[/quote]Because what you have got is from Ancestry.
That is not the census. It's transcription of the census, and a typical example of the poor transcriptions for which Ancestry is notorious.
Though it's actually not surprising they got it wrong as it's very hard to read the original.
[/quote]
Thanks for this. I'll pass it on to our cousin who sent the record. I thought it had come from Scotlands People. As you say, it's a bad transcript of the actual certificate. Knowing it's Thurlow one can just make out the correct names in that poor quality.
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Freecen is a useful website. It is free to use, although the coverage is not complete. I had a quick look for Thirlow & found him easily enough. It states his occupation as a miller journeyman. Scotlandspeople is still the place to go to see the original census & not a transcript. https://freecen1.freecen.org.uk/
flst
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I agree, and FreeCEN has much better transcriptions than the commercial web sites because they are double-transcribed by people who are usually familiar with the area they are transcribing.
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Do you have a link I can click on to find the 1871 census record for Thirlow Fraser on Scotlands People please? I have searched using a variety of combinations and every census year, except 1871, comes up.
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This is the 1871 on Freecen
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/59026e98e9379091b1ea9bfc/thirlow-fraser-1871-aberdeenshire-new-pitsligo-1827-?locale=en
The reference on Scotlands People is 227/B 3/20 NewPitsligo.
That is through searching the son aged 7, who is indexed under the name “Shirton”. Then I checked others in the family against the same reference number. (Thurlow senior is also indexed under "Shirton".)
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I've told SP that it's wrongly transcribed in their index, and they have said that it will be corrected, but sometimes corrections take a wee while. They'll also re-scan the page in the hope of making it more legible.
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A re-scan of the image would be great, if they can improve it.
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Anyone can contact SP directly and request a better scan.
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I have just received the re-scanned image. PM me if you want a copy.
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Thank you very much for the information
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I have just received the re-scanned image. PM me if you want a copy.
Thank you so much for your help. I have sent a PM
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I've been inactive for a while but I'm back still trying to solve parents in the line of Thurlow Fraser (1825-1889) (married to Jane Cowie). With your wonderful help we found a father for him - Alexander Fraser married to Christian Burnet.
From the various census records we see that Thurlow Fraser aged 15 is working as a Male Servant in an Inn run by George and Jean Fraser (presumably relatives).
To try and get some perspective of their movements I did this map linking their places of births and deaths for Alexander Fraser, Christian Burnet, Thurlow Fraser and Jane Cowie.
Alexander Fraser born Fraserburgh death Cullen
Christian Burnet born Pitsligo death Philorth
Thurlow Fraser born Fraserburgh death New Pitsligo
Jane Cowie born New Deer death New Pitsligo
They all moved in fairly close proximity in this area of Scotland.
I've added Banffshire in because this is where the 1841 census is taken for Thurlow Fraser (15 yrs old). Alexander died in 1848 in Cullen so he must have moved there, and his son Thurlow, stayed in Banff with family (also Frasers) at the Inn where he worked as a Male Servant. Pitty the name of the Inn is not given. I would guess that Christian Burnet was with Alexander in Cullen at his death and then moved back to near her old hometown (Philorth near Pitsligo)
I'm still not completely satisfied that this Alexander Fraser (married to Christian Burnet) are Thurlow's parents. Are there any actual birth notices available that can show this?
We have Thurlow and Jane's actual marriage certificate but no birth or baptism certificate.
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In 1841 census, Thurlow is in the house of his older brother George.
Perhaps go back and read through this thread again (or print it out) so you can pick up the information you might have missed
Thurlow’s parents are named on his marriage certificate. This information comes directly from Thurlow. I would think he knew who his parents were.
Why do you doubt him? What evidence do you have that these are not his parents?
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In 1841 census, Thurlow is in the house of his older brother George.
Perhaps go back and read through this thread again (or print it out) so you can pick up the information you might have missed
Thurlow’s parents are named on his marriage certificate. This information comes directly from Thurlow. I would think he knew who his parents were.
Why do you doubt him? What evidence do you have that these are not his parents?
Hi Neale1961
Thanks for your quick reply. Probably because of the 1841 census. Why was Thurlow, at 15yrs old, away from the family? Is that our Thurlow in the census, working for family? In an earlier reply you thought that maybe Thurlow's parents were dead by the time of the 1841 census. See clip I have attached.Alexander's death certificate we have says that he died in Cullen on 30 November 1848 and we have Christian Burnet's death as 1861 • Old Aberdeen, Aberdeenshire..
I think I must do as you suggest, and print out all the notes shared on RootsChat. It's quite hard to jump backwards and forwards online.
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It is quite normal to see young teenagers away from home for work at this time in history.
I don’t think there is anything unusual about this being the case for Thurlow.
The 1841 census was taken during the summer. Who knows? - we can speculate that Thurlow went to visit his brother, and earned his keep by working at the Inn.
In my reply #66, I speculated that Thurlow’s parents were dead, but that was BEFORE, their details were known. It is important to read and consider replies in the order in which they are posted.
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Hi! I was the original poster and was away for while. I have just caught up on this and am happily amazed at the interest it's gotten. I loved reading about the family roots and different branches.
I did some research into the line I was specifically targeting and have found what I was looking for.
Thirlow Fraser
BIRTH
22 Jul 1858
New Deer, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
DEATH
9 Jan 1940 (aged 81)
Newcastle-upon-Tyne, Metropolitan Borough of Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne and Wear, England
BURIAL
St. Nicholas' Churchyard
Cramlington, Northumberland Unitary Authority, Northumberland, England
Family Members
Parents:
William Findlay Fraser
1817–1904
Isabella Mitchell Fraser
1822–1904
Children: Only one child is found.
Maybe he had more with another wife? Was he married again?
"Tracing back, there is a marriage between a Thirlow Fraser, farm servant, aged 25, living Old Deer and Mary Park, aged 19, on 22 Nov 1884, Belhelvie. His parents are given as William Fraser, Ag Lab and Isabella, m.s. Mitchell"
Son
Charles Fraser
BIRTH
9 Nov 1881
Aberdeenshire, Scotland
DEATH
28 Nov 1952 (aged 71)
Winnipeg, Greater Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
BURIAL
Brookside Cemetery
Winnipeg, Greater Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Family Members:
Parents:
Thirlow Fraser
1858–1940
No mention of a mother. Thirlow seems have been a very young father.
Charles was known by his descendants to have been adopted out.
Possible mother was an Elspeth Skene?
Spouse
Helen Harley Whittet Reid Fraser
1893–1994 (m. 1912
Grandparents:
Parents of William Findlay Fraser - Alexander Fraser, forester and Christina m.s. Burnett.
Alexander Fraser and Christian Burnett were married 19 Jan 1806 Fraserburgh.
William Findlay Fraser
BIRTH
3 Mar 1817
Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire, Scotland
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Hi! I was the original poster and was away for while. I have just caught up on this and am happily amazed at the interest it's gotten. I loved reading about the family roots and different branches.
I did some research into the line I was specifically targeting and have found what I was looking for.
Hi daisypetals01.
I am very happy you did start this discussion as it broke open a brick wall for my wife's g.grandfather Alick Thurlow Fra(z)er. Would love to catch up with you to see what Fraser tree you have
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It is quite normal to see young teenagers away from home for work at this time in history.
I don’t think there is anything unusual about this being the case for Thurlow.
The 1841 census was taken during the summer. Who knows? - we can speculate that Thurlow went to visit his brother, and earned his keep by working at the Inn.
All noted thanks.
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From the various census records we see that Thurlow Fraser aged 15 is working as a Male Servant in an Inn run by George and Jean Fraser (presumably relatives).
Pitty the name of the Inn is not given.
This household is in Enumeration District 4, which is in the town of Macduff. The addresses in that ED are Duff Street, Gellymill Street, Docky Well Street, Shore Brae, Shore, Bruce Street, Church Lane, Church Street and Hornes Street.
Most of these can be found on the 25-inch map at https://maps.nls.uk/view/75066610
George Fraser's household is the 7th household on Shore (Street). In the census, two households away from the Frasers, is James Shand, Architect, with wife Margaret, merchant and publican, son Alexander, clerk and Margaret Robertson, merchant and spirit dealer. The 1846 County Directory lists at No 36 Shore Alexander Shand, and at No 37 Margaret Robertson, grocer and spirit dealer. No 33 Shore is the Fife Arms Inn, where the head of the household is Andrew Hunter.
So I am fairly sure that George Fraser's inn must have been the Fife Arms Inn, which is shown on the map above. If I'm right, this https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/861451 is it.
I'm still not completely satisfied that this Alexander Fraser (married to Christian Burnet) are Thurlow's parents. Are there any actual birth notices available that can show this?
Almost certainly not, as none of the baptisms of the family of Alexander F and Christian Burnet are on Scotland's People.
We have Thurlow and Jane's actual marriage certificate but no birth or baptism certificate.
Why do you think the names given by Thurlow himself on his marriage certificate are not sufficient evidence for his parentage?
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Thank you Forfarian, That's interesting I'll browse through those details.
I will accept the names on the marriage certificate. It's just nice to be able to confirm both names and dates of birth from written birth registers etc. With these very old records it's difficult.
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Hi all.
Previous local to the area here (grew up there) so if you want any insight on places, happy to advise.
Also, if you are researching Thurlow’s (born 1858) mother’s line (Isabella Mitchell), she is my x4 GtGrand Aunt. Her parents were my x5 gt grandparents, Peter Mitchell and Isabella Ironside.
Shout if you have any questions that can help.
Kind regards
Brian
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I see these census records aren't showing Denburn Mills. Do these mills fall under a group?
I imagine the mill was named Denburn Mill, because it was situated on the small stream called “Den Burn”.
See the information on the old Ordinance Survey that Den Burn and the Corn Mill are recorded together in Parish of Tyrie [New Pitsligo]. Scroll down the page to the bottom to find the link to the map
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/aberdeenshire-os-name-books-1865-1871/aberdeenshire-volume-90/39
Yes! The Denburn Mill is towards the bottom of what is locally called Mill Brae but officially called Church Street. The Den Burn itself runs through the village.
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It's been a while since I last posted here. With all the research we've done on our Thurlow Fraser 1825 - 23 Oct 1889 I want to say thank you to this group for the great help you were in helping us break down the ancestry wall we couldn't get through. In our research we found some old pictures (postcard etc) on line dated 1903 of the Denburn Mill in New Pitsligo where Thurlow worked before his death. We thought it would be a great idea to paint the picture in colour for our family tree and to share it with you folk. It may be of some interest to some of you. My wife Jenny who is the g.g.grandchild of Thurlow has just completed the painting (it's a 30cm x 40cm acrylic on canvas). The attachment is a small size and if anyone would like the larger image please let me know.
I see the mill is still there and it looks as though it is now a B&B or the like. The building has had a bit of modification - mainly to the roof of the closer part of the building but the rest is still the same. We went up and down the road virtually (haven't we got clever technology these days) with Google Maps Street View and got an idea of the colours to use. It's very interesting to see that the "tunnel" through the trees at the end of the road is still there after all this time -amazing! It's also of note that the street view in Google shows old mill stones leaning against the building. I wonder when last they were used?
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I have spent all afternoon reading all this its amazing
Yes its Elizabeth an old Roots friend of Gadgets and Forfarian who have both helped me search my family for me .This past week I contacted Garthkh on another matter and found we share part of a family tree given to us .So now my task is to try to find out where we fit in together
Elizabeth
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Hello Betty
It's been good to have a short catch-up with you. I look forward to seeing some more of my Fraser doors opened but plowing through all the same names that are passed on through these families makes it very confusing.
Garth
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Wonderful thread of info! Thank you... I join in the FRASER/COWIE line as well and what an interesting story about Thurlow's name and father (being a forester to a sultan).
It's no doubt Thurlow was a miller and worked at a mill but I am a bit confused about which one. My records seem to indicate it was "Mill of Esselmont Ellon" but then we have that amazing picture and postcard photo of another mill.
Would really appreciate any clarification anyone can provide?
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Welcome to RootsChat :)
Esslemont is in the parish of Ellon, a short distance west of the town of Ellon. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.5&lat=57.36545&lon=-2.10695&layers=257s&b=1&o=100
Thurlow Fraser married Jane Cowie in 1860, giving his residence as Littlemill of Esslemont, parish of Ellon. See reply #67 above.
In 1861 Thurlaw Fraser, 34 was a journeyman miller there at Little Mill, and his wife was living with her parents in the parish of Tyrie. See Reply #53 above.
Ten years later, in 1871, Thirlow Fraser, 44, journeyman miller, is in 54 Low Street, New Pitsligo, parish of Tyrie, with wife Jane Cowie and five children. See Reply #54 above.
These are two different places, so Thirlow must have moved from Ellon to Tyrie between 1861 and 1871. This is quite normal. The term 'journeyman' has nothing to do with travelling. It is from the French 'journée' which means a day, and a journeyman is a skilled man who has completed an apprenticeship, and is working as an employee for a master, originally paid by the day.
Another ten years later, Thurlow, aged 54, meal miller, is at Denburn Mills, parish of Tyrie. You can view the LDS transcription of the 1881 census at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk free of charge. So he has presumably taken on his own mill instead of being employed by someone else.
So there is no need for any confusion. He simply moved jobs from Ellon to Tyrie.
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Very interesting to think that Thurlow possibly took over the Denburn Mill. I would love to find some records that show this. I am in touch now with the present owner of the old Mill who has no history of the place, but fell in love with it. The building has been modified on the outside a bit but still looks much the same. It's her residence now. She says she will be in touch with me again soon with more photos.
History unfolds slowly - but it's so interesting.
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I took a look at the Valaution Rolls at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
In 1885 the proprietor of Denburn Mill was William McKay and Thurlow Fraser was the occupier in a house there belonging to William McKay. In 1895 the proprietor was still William McKay but someone else was in the tied house.
Not surprising really, as Thurlow died in 1889. His death certificate describes him as a miller journeyman so no, he didn't make it to being his own master, and my presumption was incorrect.
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Thank you! I truly appreciate this great information.
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I'm not sure that Alexander Fraser would have been related to the Saltoun Frasers though as "he died on 18 August 1853 at age 68, without issue" ( http://thepeerage.com/p3085.htm ).
Added - there's this tree on Family Search: not sure of the accuracy.
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.2.1/MNG7-46X
Other info suggests that she was the illegitimate daughter of the first Baron Thurlow http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Thurlow,_1st_Baron_Thurlow and http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Thurlow,_Edward_%281731-1806%29_%28DNB00%29
When you are referring to the Alexander Fraser above, are you saying he is our Alexander FRASER who married Christina BURNET, parents of Thurlow FRASER?
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Hmm. Interesting tree of Catherine Thurlow.
It suggests that Catherine Thurlow was born about 1761, and that she married Alexander Fraser in 1815. If that is true, it's no wonder there were no children.
And it suggests that she was 24 years older than her husband. Not impossible, of course, but pretty unusual.
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I happened to be wandering around Tyrie yesterday and came across Denburn. See attached.
The name Denburn is on the glass panel above the front door.