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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: fridayjan on Monday 11 November 13 22:19 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help me with this address, and why it would be given as the place of death for a 14 year old?
I have the death certificate for my great aunt, Marian Mortimer Sides, which says that she died on 29 September 1921 at 13 Princes Half Tide Dock. The cause of death was acute rheumatic fever and endocarditis, and my grandmother (her sister) was the informant and present at her death.
I've tried googling the address with no success, and have no relatives to ask, although I do remember being told that Marian was "sickly" and had a "deformed" arm. Their father was a publican, and they had previously lived at the Castle Hotel at 50 Regent Road so I suppose it's possible they were visiting someone at Princes Dock when she was taken ill?
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I have used Google Earth
there is a Princes half Dock
Princes Parade
Liverpool
L3 0BU
Any good maybe the buildings have been demolished and the Parade put there
Elizabeth
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If her sister was the informant ,would it not be possible this is where her sister lived,
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Hi, Thanks for your replies.
I don't think her sister (my grandmother) was living at the Princes Dock address - the address she gave as informant was a different one, belonging to her aunt Kate. (there's a long story here - wicked step-mother has a baby who dies and makes a comment along the lines of "why did my baby die when that cripple is still alive (Marian)" at which point my GM slaps step-mother and leaves the family home, taking Marian with her, to go and live with aunt Kate, who was her mother's best friend!).
My main puzzle is why would a 14 year old die in what was presumably a working area in 1921. Could there have been a habour master's house or some such that she was visiting?
[I've just had a thought and will try looking through the census' to see if there is a residence at no. 13 - ahhah! why didn't I think of that earlier?!]
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You can see the area around Princes Half Tide Dock on the 1927 map at http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?coords=333667,391071 select the map from the list on the right. There is a Dock Master's Office. There don't seem to be any houses, are you sure it says 13?
Stan
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I had a look at a 1937 photo of this dock taken from the air and again could not see any houses, but this dock had access to the leeds Liverpool canal with a towpath so it may be more a magnet to children. is it possible the canal boat berths were numbered, or the warehouses had numbered entrances.
mike
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it may not then have had access to the canal, wiki is misleading me :o :o
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this picture may help.
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw037721?name=LIVERPOOL&gazetteer=LIVERPOOL&POPULATED_PLACE=LIVERPOOL&ADMIN_AREA=Liverpool&ref=32
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I don't think the family had any connections with the canal, or at least no one in the family has ever mentioned it!
Having looked at the 1901 and 1911 census there do appear to be some residences with numbers, i.e. the pier master is at 11 Princes Graving Dock, but I couldn't find no. 13 mentioned. However, there is a family living at a "receiving house" (whatever that is?) and I've found some entries on the Toxteth Park Cemetery site for people whose abode is given as "Dead House Princes Dock", so I wonder if there was some kind of hospital/mortuary in the area?
I suppose it's possible that Marian could have died suddenly while out and about (given her cause of death/medial history) and was taken to the nearest suitable place?
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Just a little note I am sure you have it but her probate gives her address as 199 Walton Road,and are you sure she is 14 ,leaving a will,
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Marian Mortimer Sides,of 199 Walton Road,Liverpool,
Spinster, died 29th September 1921,
Admin granted Liverpool, To Archie Sides, Licenced Victualler ,£176 7s 6d
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Is the 199 Address her fathers abode,the Salutation Hotel,
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You can see the Receiving House on the 1891 Town Plan at http://www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?coords=333837,390537 and in a different location on the 1908 map, but this is at the south end of Princes Dock, whereas Princes Half Tide Dock is at the north end.
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Apparently it was the Dead Receiving House http://goo.gl/7zQ25O
Stan
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So Stan, you would in theory be dead rather than die there,
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Have you found her burial records , to see if the address corresponds with the death cert details,
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So Stan, you would in theory be dead rather than die there,
According to newspaper reports the Receiving House at Princes Dock was where people recovered from the water, either through accident or suicide, were taken, and attempts made to revive them. If they recovered, as in one report, attemted suicides were taken to court.
Stan
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Thank you for all your comments.
Yes, her father Archie was the publican at the Salutation Pub, 199 Walton Road.
It surprised me too when I found the probate record for her, but she was only 14 (baptised at St Johns, Bootle 7.7.1907 and born 15.10.1906). As it says "Administration Liverpool" do you think it would be worth me sending for her Will? I've never sent for one before but seem to remember reading that if it says Administration rather than Probate, there might not be much information available?
I haven't been able to find her burial place so far.
Unfortunately, I don't know exactly when my grandmother Clara left with Marian, although I suspect it was sometime between 1911 (when the step-mother's baby died) and 1917 (when the step-mother died). The address she gave as her residence on Marian's death cert was 47 Gloucester Road, which is also the address she gave on her marriage certificate in 1924. So I presume Clara didn't return to live with her father, Archie.
Archie sound like a bit of a lad! He married 3 times, and each time the age gap between him and his wife grew (3 years, 7 years and 22 years) and my Mum (also Marian) told me that his children would get new clothes if he won on the horses, but the next week they might be pawned if he lost! I've found newspaper reports about him going bankrupt after selling bad meat from Pork Butcher shops that he'd bought from someone interned in WWI. Quite an interesting character!
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I would send for the will, but that's because I am, a very curious person, and like answers to my queries re family history , I wouldn't be happy with an unsourced answer or hearsay ,so go for it ,she was young ,where did she get the money from ,her mother perhaps, yes I followed Archie around from baker to publican, an interesting character indeed,
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Its an admin not probate so wont tell you much more, I wondered where the money came from, its quite a lot for a 14 yr old
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Can anyone help me with this address, and why it would be given as the place of death for a 14 year old?
I have the death certificate for my great aunt, Marian Mortimer Sides, which says that she died on 29 September 1921 at 13 Princes Half Tide Dock. The cause of death was acute rheumatic fever and endocarditis, and my grandmother (her sister) was the informant and present at her death.
I've tried googling the address with no success, and have no relatives to ask, although I do remember being told that Marian was "sickly" and had a "deformed" arm. Their father was a publican, and they had previously lived at the Castle Hotel at 50 Regent Road so I suppose it's possible they were visiting someone at Princes Dock when she was taken ill?
The cause of death was a fever so perhaps this location was being used as a temporary fever shed? Towards the end of WW1 and afterwards there was a Spanish Flu epidemic so emergency conditions may have made it necessary to use other facilities. There was no mention of the Coroner was there? So it wasn't a sudden or suspicious death requiring investigation.
Blue
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As there do not appear to be any houses at Princes Half Tide Dock, could the 13 be the number of a correction? In BMD registers all corrections of a minor nature occurring at the time of the entry have to be numbered, obviously to prevent someone coming along later and altering an entry. Therefore, in this case, the correction would have been made at the time it was entered and this is the 13th such correction in the register. Just to clarify, corrections of errors discovered, at the time of entry, before completion of the certificate are just numbered and initialed in the margin, there will be no explanation.
Stan
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I'll try and get the death certificate scanned to put on here, but the 13 doesn't seem to be a correction, and there is no mention of a Coroner. The death was certified by F V Buxton, M.B.
Clara was 14 years older than Marian, and a school teacher, so I wonder if she had been putting money aside for her over the years, especially as she was "delicate" and wouldn't have been able to support herself.
I'll send for the Will/Administration, just in case there are any clues.
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If what you have is a certified copy, then the person making the copy may have assumed it is an address.
Stan
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With there being no mention of the Coroner we can assume that there were no unusual circumstances surrounding the death despite the place of death being unusual. Perhaps the location was being used as a fever ward as I suggested or the family chose to move her to this location because of the illness.
Blue
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Not sure if this helps or not, but this is the Half Tide Dock in 1893
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I wonder if this topic has run its course but, looking at the map on the last post, and refreshing my memory of when I worked round there it was not possible to gain access to the docks except by the gate in the very substantial dock wall. These gates were permanently manned by the dock police, so I cannot see that they were on the dock, I am thinking that the younger one was taken ill near the dock gate or maybe at Princes Dock station on the overhead railway, they asked the dock policeman on the gate for help and were taken to the dock masters house, or piermasters house or the fire station shewn on the map, the younger one died there
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There could be all sorts of theories the newspapers of the time might mention if the location was used for fever patients.
Blue