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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: meggles on Wednesday 29 January 14 20:01 GMT (UK)
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I have a couple of threads going at the moment:
1. is about Jessie May Chamberlain marring twice as a spinster - my theory
2. the other is help with a NSW birth
Basically I was looking for the birth of a Roy Elliott. He was given to a aunt to raise and he never knew who his real parents were. (he was raised by Matthew Elliott and Charlotte nee Chamberlain)
In Notes that my Grandmother had written many years before her death was that Roy was Jessie May Chamberlain's son (older sister of Charlotte Chamberlain)
So I went in search of how this could be.
I found out that Jessie married in 1907 which I never knew - George Henry Davis - and George Henry Davis was I think already married (all in the Spinster thread)
So now I have found a birth for R.D. in 1911, The information on this birth is half right and half wrong for my Roy Elliott.
1. he said on his ww2 record he was born 29th July 1912 - the birth I have is 29th July 1911.
2. parents are: George Davis born Shoalhaven and May Chambers born Shoalhaven - I am saying that parents were George Davis and Jessie May Chamberlain both born Shoalhaven
3. the marriage date of these 2 is 1908 instead of 1907 - but same day and month - different marriage spot though - my couple married in Berry - this couple say Moruya, nsw
the rest of the info matches my George and Jessie May.
The baby was born in the asylum for women and children Thomas street Sydney.
So what I am thinking is that this is my R. - and this is probably about the time that Jessie has found out that George has another family. There is a lot of embarrassment surrounding this situation and also I think that she is trying to hide the fact that she did marry a already married man. There is no record so far that I can find of a annulment ( I have emailed the church of Jessie's second marriage in hope that they might have some info)
Is this too far fetch??
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Hello Meggles,
Came across on TROVE in SMH 12 Mar 1900 page 1 under 'Memoriam' - there are quite a few listings under CHAMBERLAIN giving family names with the last entry " …. Inserted by her loving nieces, Violet, Lavetta, Winnie, Jessie Chamberlain of Berry. "
The link is
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/14299083?searchTerm=%22Jessie%20Chamberlain%22&searchLimits=l-category=Family+Notices
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So, who was the informant for the birth registration of the baby born 29 July 1911?
I think it is important to mention that it possible that persons born in 1911 may well still be living. I am sure you know about the fate of the child raised by Matthew Elliott and Charlotte nee Chamberlain. BUT what if the child born in 1911 is still LIVING? He is entitled to his personal privacy. I think you should remove his name until you have conclusive evidence as to his connection to the ELLIOTT family.
Cheers, JM
I have a couple of threads going at the moment:
So now I have found a birth xxxxxxx in 1911, The information on this birth is half right and half wrong for my Roy Elliott.
1. he said on his ww2 record he was born 29th July 1912 - the birth I have is 29th July 1911.
I HAVE EDITED MUCH OF THIS POST as it seems I have been misunderstood. Cheers, JM
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Hi Meggles
There are enough similarities for me to think that you have the correct people.However, I agree with JM that signatures are needed. That will be the only way to have conclusive proof.
If this is the correct couple, it's interesting to see that she had the baby in the asylum. Not the place of choice for a married woman.
Regards
Jennaya
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I am not sure which thread to post on with the following OBIT from 18 April 1903 Shoalhaven news
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/135733190 so I am popping it here. It is for George Henry DAVIS, the chap 1840 -1903.
But likely here's another possible chap named George Henry DAVIS .... he was a tad on the very wealthy side !
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/53283243 Morning Bulletin (Rockhampton Qld)_ 22 Oct 1912
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5323629 Advertiser (South Australia) 13 Oct 911
Cheers, JM
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A question re the 1911 birth....
Are there any older siblings noted on the document? Afterall, it notes a 1908 marriage :)
ADD
http://www.findandconnect.gov.au/guide/nsw/NE00315 RENWICK
http://www.dictionaryofsydney.org/entry/benevolent_society_and_asylum Renwick commences under that name 3 July 1911. Baby born 29 July 1911.
http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/item/itemdetailpaged.aspx?itemid=825697
And from Rchat's Resources Board :) http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/ Its an index covering to 1900, but there's contact details for follow up as the index is based on some of the archive material at NSW SL... http://www.sydneybenevolentasylum.com/index.php?page=contact-us
Cheers, JM
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But likely here's another possible chap named George Henry DAVIS .... he was a tad on the very wealthy side ! - Sorry already followed this chap through and it is not him. I have ordered many transcriptions in regards to all of this - some right and some wrong. I have done alot of reserach into as many George Henry Davis's as possible - Before I come to this conclusion.
AND it is just a working conclusion at the moment, I am not stating any of this as fact, and have not entered any of this into my tree. I am basically thinking out loud and asking for some thoughts.
I have emailed the transcription company I use to ask for advise, I have emailed St Lukes the church in Berry where Jessie's second marriage took place to see if there is any mention of the first marriage in their records (they have just got back to me and there is not) and i am still looking for more info. I have email the asylum where this baby was born requesting more info - this should tell me how long she was in the asylum and when her and baby were discharged to.
I have big doubts the person that married Jessie in 1907 was pretending to be the George Henry Davis with parents George and Mary.
Thank you for everyone that has sent a PM supporting my theory and giving me their own examples in their family tress on how one man was married to 2 women for a long period of time without ever being caught.
The witness on the birth for the baby is the nurse - so no help at all.
cheers
Meggles
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But likely here's another possible chap named George Henry DAVIS .... he was a tad on the very wealthy side ! - Sorry already followed this chap through and it is not him. I have ordered many transcriptions in regards to all of this - some right and some wrong. I have done alot of reserach into as many George Henry Davis's as possible - Before I come to this conclusion.
AND it is just a working conclusion at the moment, I am not stating any of this as fact, and have not entered any of this into my tree. I am basically thinking out loud and asking for some thoughts.
I have emailed the transcription company I use to ask for advise, I have emailed St Lukes the church in Berry where Jessie's second marriage took place to see if there is any mention of the first marriage in their records (they have just got back to me and there is not) and i am still looking for more info. I have email the asylum where this baby was born requesting more info - this should tell me how long she was in the asylum and when her and baby were discharged to.
I have big doubts the person that married Jessie in 1907 was pretending to be the George Henry Davis with parents George and Mary.
Thank you for everyone that has sent a PM supporting my theory and giving me their own examples in their family tress on how one man was married to 2 women for a long period of time without ever being caught.
The witness on the birth for the baby is the nurse - so no help at all.
cheers
Meggles
Hi there,
May I please ask you to check the 1911 transcription again, and advise the name of the person who attended to the registration. The transcription ought to include that person’s relationship to the baby…. NSW BDM also provide for the names of threee witnesses for the birth. The informant can of course BE the witness, but these are separate pieces of information.
So from my own records, may I note that the 1910 birth of one of my living elderly rellies shows that his MOTHER registered his birth and that she did so around four weeks after he was born. She did NOT take him along to the deputy registrar to prove he existed (‘not present’), and she supplied the details of her marriage, and the older siblings. She SIGNED the register and her signature is clearly legible on the real deal certificate that my rellie has held for decades and decades. I have a recent copy issued by NSW BDM.
Cheers, JM .
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I have removed much of my earlier reply as it seems I have been misunderstood. I have left the comments re privacy. The other comments were quite separate from that issue. They were suggesting obtaining real deal certifcates with signatures and using the fine resources at RChat for comparing.
I apologise to RChat for disrupting the flow of this thread. I apologise to Jennaya for the possibility that her (or his) post may also be misunderstood
Hi Meggles
There are enough similarities for me to think that you have the correct people.However, I agree with JM that signatures are needed. That will be the only way to have conclusive proof.
If this is the correct couple, it's interesting to see that she had the baby in the asylum. Not the place of choice for a married woman.
Regards
Jennaya
Cheers, JM.
So, who was the informant for the birth registration of the baby born 29 July 1911?
I think it is important to mention that it possible that persons born in 1911 may well still be living. I am sure you know about the fate of the child raised by Matthew Elliott and Charlotte nee Chamberlain. BUT what if the child born in 1911 is still LIVING? He is entitled to his personal privacy. I think you should remove his name until you have conclusive evidence as to his connection to the ELLIOTT family.
Cheers, JM
I have a couple of threads going at the moment:
So now I have found a birth xxxxxxx in 1911, The information on this birth is half right and half wrong for my Roy Elliott.
1. he said on his ww2 record he was born 29th July 1912 - the birth I have is 29th July 1911.
I HAVE EDITED MUCH OF THIS POST as it seems I have been misunderstood. Cheers, JM
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Hi Meggles
Do you have Roy Elliott's death certificate? I was wondering what year of birth was on it.
Regards
Jennaya
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Here are my comments based on a NSW BDM certificate for a birth in 1910 in Ultimo (Sydney) NSW. As the male person is STILL living, and as I respect the right of NSW residents to their lawful expectation to privacy, I do NOT include identifiying information. This is from a real deal certificate, it is HANDWRITTEN and an image from the REGISTER held at the NSW BDM. The cert is on my lap in front of me at this minute. There are several different hands showing on the certificate. There’s the NSW BDM clerk, and there’s the Deputy Registrar, and there’s the handwriting of the baby’s mother. I well recognise HER signature. I have many examples of her hand. I have good memories of lots of conversations with her.
I can clearly read each of the separate columns
1. the local registrar’s line number. (this is NOT the NSW BDM reference no.)
2. full date of birth (day, month, year, then day of week)
3. address where baby was born (name of the house, house number, street address, (no city/town/suburb/village/locality mentioned) and followed by the words “not present’
4. Male
5. Father’s full name (all his given names, followed by his surname), his then occupation, his then age, and his place of birth. (place of birth is not as detailed, it just gives the street in Sydney where he was born and NOT the house name/number.)
6. Then the date of the marriage (full date, but not day of week), and the place (on this document it reads “Sydney” ) and Previous issue (of the marriage) … it shows the names and ages of the older siblings still alive at that time. These are listed in chronological order. It then continues and shows the number of male siblings followed by the number of female siblings already deceased
7. Mother’s names and maiden surname, and her age and her birthplace. Like the baby’s father, this mum was also born in Sydney.
8. The next column is for the INFORMANT, and in my instance, this section has the informant’s SIGNATURE, and relationship and address. So, I can clearly see the signature of the MOTHER and that her address is exactly the same as that given for the place of birth.
9. Then there’s the column for WITNESS and there’s provision for three witnesses. Names are provided for witness (2) and (3). Witness (1) has NOT any entry next to it. Witnesses (2) and (3) were females (listed as Mrs ………) and IF I recall correctly, my earlier research showed these to be locals, one a midwife.
10. The next column is the admin column for the formal certification, ie the deputy registrar’s signature, the date, the location etc.
11. Then there is the next column where the Registrar can add a name to his register (In my instance this is blank).
So there’s a great deal of IDENTIFYING information available on NSW BDM birth certs, and this is one of the reasons that these records are on restricted access for the first one *** HUNDRED years. I am concerned about the depth of information displayed in the Original Post, I have asked but our OP has not removed the name of the person born 1911.
I am quite sure that at Rchat we ought not to name persons whom we cannot confirm are already deceased. Clearly someone born in 1911 may well be deceased, BUT WHAT IF THEY ARE NOT…. Surely we ought to be careful in what information we provide about anyone who may well be alive. What if the baby born 1911 is NOT the elusive son of Meggles Jessie….. What if there were two separate chaps, one married to Minnie in 1907 and one married to Jessie in 1907. What if the chap deserted Jessie and fled NSW, or fled Australia, and so perhaps died interstate or in a different country. What if he enlisted in a different country and went off to be Killed in Action during The Great War.
May I please ask for the removal of the NAME of the baby born 1911. To the best of my knowledge I am NOT related to any person named in this thread, but I am related to a chap born in 1910 who does follow my threads, and he is quite distressed to read that there are people interested in family history who do not respect the privacy of the living.
Once I have posted this thread, I will of course immediately report myself to a moderator. I can see that the OP is again online.
Cheers, JM *** EDIT to add HUNDRED ::) noting that at least one chap born in 1910 has read this thread carefully and noticed JM left out a very important word. ::)
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Hi - I don't have his death cert. He died in 1997 so unable to get it myself and his daughter has remarried and I have lost contact with her with no way to find her so far .................
death notice has him at 84 which has him born in 1912 (april death - July birthday)
But he was never sure of his right birth year - so that is why i think 1911 is possible.
I have hired a reseracher to look at the records from all of Jessie May Chamberlain's children's births around this time at the Mitchell Library - and also of this May Chambers, the records should tell where she went after her discharge from the asylum and hopefully a little bit more info.
cheers
Meggles
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But the name of the baby born 1911 is displaying on your thread and you have NOT confirmed he is no longer living... You put his name there, and all his identifying info from his birth cert's transcription.
He may well be YOUR Jessie's baby, BUT you have not yet established that, Transcriptions always carry the reminder that they are not "legal" proof.
JM
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Hi - I don't have his death cert. He died in 1997 so unable to get it myself and his daughter has remarried and I have lost contact with her with no way to find her so far .................
death notice has him at 84 which has him born in 1912 (april death - July birthday)
But he was never sure of his right birth year - so that is why i think 1911 is possible.
I have hired a reseracher to look at the records from all of Jessie May Chamberlain's children's births around this time at the Mitchell Library - and also of this May Chambers, the records should tell where she went after her discharge from the asylum and hopefully a little bit more info.
cheers
Meggles
That's OK, I didn't realise that he had lived for that long.
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Hi I am not sure what you mean about reporting yourself to a moderator? have you done something wrong?
You are very lucky to have someone over the age of 100 to be able to help you with your research (born 1910 - so just about 104) this is very rare and I am a little bit jealous (did you know that there is only about 620 people living in Australia at this age - and 1 in 10 of these are female.
I would imagine that your male relative could tell you many wonderful stories about his life.
As you are probably aware I have not been convinced that your ideas have been right in regards to my research - but I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to help - I see by your posts that you do try to help a lot of people (again I envy this - I wish I had the time to do this)
As it happens a box of old papers that I had inherited has finally turned up - and although I have not had time as yet to go through everything, I have seen enough to know that my theories in regards to Jessie, George and Roy were all correct :)
(so thank you to everyone else for your time and effort in helping me also)
And sorry I seem to have wasted your time - and I am sorry to think that I have upset a great great relative of yours -But as he does seem so concerned - I am hoping that he is also aware that by you putting any information on this site or any other site about your family (even the dead ones) it could potentially breach privacy for him and all your relatives - as it would take very little effort to look at all your posts, your profile and a few SMH death notices to trace your family all the way down.
Happy Hunting
cheers
Meggles
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I reported to the moderator so they could attend to the edit. I have no understanding of your last para.
Thanks Moderator for the edit
I suspect the OP is confused
JM
Hi I am not sure what you mean about reporting yourself to a moderator? have you done something wrong?
You are very lucky to have someone over the age of 100 to be able to help you with your research (born 1910 - so just about 104) this is very rare and I am a little bit jealous (did you know that there is only about 620 people living in Australia at this age - and 1 in 10 of these are female.
I would imagine that your male relative could tell you many wonderful stories about his life.
As you are probably aware I have not been convinced that your ideas have been right in regards to my research - but I do appreciate the fact that you are trying to help - I see by your posts that you do try to help a lot of people (again I envy this - I wish I had the time to do this)
As it happens a box of old papers that I had inherited has finally turned up - and although I have not had time as yet to go through everything, I have seen enough to know that my theories in regards to Jessie, George and Roy were all correct :)
(so thank you to everyone else for your time and effort in helping me also)
And sorry I seem to have wasted your time - and I am sorry to think that I have upset a great great relative of yours -But as he does seem so concerned - I am hoping that he is also aware that by you putting any information on this site or any other site about your family (even the dead ones) it could potentially breach privacy for him and all your relatives - as it would take very little effort to look at all your posts, your profile and a few SMH death notices to trace your family all the way down.
Happy Hunting
cheers
Meggles
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You are very lucky to have someone over the age of 100 to be able to help you with your research (born 1910 - so just about 104) this is very rare and I am a little bit jealous (did you know that there is only about 620 people living in Australia at this age - and 1 in 10 of these are female.
Yes, Uncle (not great Uncle, and not great great Uncle, just plain ordinary UNCLE, although I think he is a great rellie rather than a rare one) and his living siblings and living first cousins are in a competition with each other to see who gets to attend all their funerals. Yes, there's been a few funerals attended and there's several more that are all fully planned, except for the date !
"Aged 100 years and over
In the 12 months to 30 June 2010, the number of people aged 100 years and over increased by 580 people (18.2%) to reach 3,700. Over the past two decades, the number of centenarians increased by 185%, compared with a total population growth of 30.9% over the same period. Increased life expectancy for both males and females has contributed to this rise. There were more than three times as many females (2,900) than males (800) in this age group at 30 June 2010 which reflects the higher life expectancy at birth for females compared with males."
http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3201.0
Cheers, JM
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Sorry I am unsure how to close this post - I have already said that it is completed.
George Henry Davis married twice - firstly Minnie Croft then Jessie Chamberlain.
Roy Davis born 1911 both to a May Chambers and George Davis was the Roy I was looking For.
I thought that I had already said all this - but probably need to be clearer.
Sorry - My figures were based on your relatives age of 104 not 100 - again I was not clear.
b
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You need to ask a moderator to post Completed [I always add 'with thanks'] on the the topic heading on your initial request ie the first post on the thread.
Gosh your certs certainly arrive quickly. I have sometimes waited weeks.
Cheers
Cando
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Hi cando
I use Joy Murrin - even I order in the morning 9 times out of 10 I have them that night - I do pay a extra $5 for this services
cheers