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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Wicklow => Topic started by: ashlingb21 on Friday 15 May 15 09:12 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm currently tracing my family history of the Burkes and Byrnes of Arklow. I have a photo of my great Grandad James Burke (born 1899) in a military uniform. Neither myself nor my family know much about him. I was wondering if anybody could help me identify what kind of uniform he is wearing in the picture as this may lead me to finding out more about him. Think the picture was possibly taken in the 1920s and was possibly an Irish uniform. Thanks everyone :)
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There are two James Burke's on 1922 Army census age in 30s
one gives his wife as Margaret and daughters Una and Patricia
http://census.militaryarchives.ie/
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He would be in his 20s in this photo I think. His wife was called Elizabeth Hayden. I'd like to find out more on his military past.
Thanks for that comment....I will have a look on that website! :D
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If he's in his twenties before 1922 its a British Army uniform.
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not sure from this site if its meant to be an R I C uniform
edit ignore this see next post
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This says Thomas Sergeant joined Co Down Ulster Division British Army but i do not know if that type of unifom was widely used for recruits
http://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/7995730-the-sergeant-brothers
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A James Burke
http://www.europeana1914-1918.eu/en/contributions/3626
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I think the buttons have a harp on them.
A high resolution scan of a button might help plus his other shoulder and legs if they are in the original.
Also is their a photographers mark?
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I found this from the post you sent me earlier and he is number 1 on the list. On the date of this he would have been 23 years old and I think by this stage it was owned by the Irish Free state army so it's difficult to tell. This photo is with his wife so he was not married until after 1922 so it may be Irish.
http://census.militaryarchives.ie/pdf/Engineer_Barracks_Curragh_Command_Page_80.pdf
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Yes I did think it was a harp on the photos too
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This is the full photo. I only have a copy of it so not sure about a photographers mark
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Yes that looks good for him, i misread your first post thought it said born 1889 which would make him 30ish i should have gone to specsavers
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haha thats ok...it's thanks to you that I have this extra info!
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This is a replica uniform should be darker green in colour note the stripe on the cuff James appears to have one visable on his right cuff
http://theirishwar.com/product/irish-national-army-free-state-uniform-and-cap-civil-war/
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Still think its a British uniform
http://www.nickmetcalfe.co.uk/the-sergeant-brothers/thomas-sergeant-m/
if you look at Thomas Sergeant's uniform from his shoulder down to about an inch above his pocket there is a extra layer of fabric so has James the positioning of the buttons the belt buckle and the shape of the pockets all look identical.
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Do you have his marriage cert
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/894ebf6261498
does it state he's a soldier as occupation.
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Could be a button from an Irish Guards uniform, I think I can see the figure on the front of the harp but it's impossible to tell if there is a crown.
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Sinann did you mean Garda
http://www.museum.ie/en/exhibition/info/early-garda-recruit.aspx
not too unlike at all
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No I was thinking British Army
http://www.ecsnaith.com/irish-guards-gilt-button-30-ligne.html
But I see what you mean.
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On second thoughts he doesn't have the badge at the neck of the Irish Guards which I would expect in a formal setting such as a photograph
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=570406.msg4226758#msg4226758
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The photo of the two men together are wearing Free State uniforms, as you can see they have that extra belt part That goes over the shoulder.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=713423.msg5578608#msg5578608
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I suppose when the Free State took over they would have to source uniforms perhaps the uniforms for privates were of a standard pattern that the Army suppliers made just requiring change of buttons and colour.
James Burkes ,Thomas Sergeant's and your relations tunics look identical.
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I suppose when the Free State took over they would have to source uniforms perhaps the uniforms for privates were of a standard pattern that the Army suppliers made just requiring change of buttons and colour.
James Burkes ,Thomas Sergeant's and your relations tunics look identical.
That's the problem all the tunics look the same even down to extra bit near the shoulder, which is why I think a good look at the buttons is the only hope of telling them apart.
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Wow there is so much! Thank you guys for your help! I can't wait to have a look at all this info during the week! It's so fascinating.
I'm still trying to find out as much info on him as I can but it's proving difficult! I don't know when he got married so don't have a marriage cert....but I will reply with any more info I can find over the next few days!
Thanks again guys...really appreciate your help 😊
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I don't know when he got married so don't have a marriage cert.
5 June 1923 would be my guess ...........and dathai's
http://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details-civil/894ebf6261498
and let that be a lesson to both of us to read everything before posting not after 😄
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Harps on buttons
Mr Burke's
Free State
Garda button very different
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Yes 5th June 1923 is when they married! So I have just ordered a marriage cert so it will be a few weeks before I get it and hopefully that will tell me more info! I am currently living in Australia so could be 4 weeks before I get it....but will be moving back to Ireland in July so hopefully I will be able to get hold of the original photo too!
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I really can't wait to get this marriage cert...just want to keep researching!!
If it turns out he was in Irish Freestate Army, could he have fought in the 2nd world war? Apparently he fought in this war but would he have had to be in the British Army to do this? I don't have much knowledge of this kind of thing!
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If he was still in the Irish Army at the time of WWII he would have to join the British Army to fight in the war this would make him a deserter.
There is quite a bit online about such men as they were recently pardoned.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0507/390710-soldier-amnesty/
http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-wwii-veterans-allies-apology-484431-Jun2012/
If he was one of these men, it would be a good reason to get out of Ireland after the War as they were badly treated when they came home. He may of course have left the Irish army long before WWII.
There is a list but I don't think it's online.
http://www.easons.com/p-841521-list-of-personnel-of-the-irish-defence-forces-dismissed-for-desertion-during-the-national-emergency.aspx
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Oh brilliant....thanks for that! I'll have a look at it all now.
Received the marriage cert....he was married 5th June 1923 and his profession says 'soldier'. So I'll have to keep on researching! Thanks again.
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I got that book about the Irish people who were dismissed in the time of emergency and unfortunately he was not in it :(
So I still have a long way to go as he seems to just disappear off the radar! Thanks for all the help!
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What did you learn from the marriage cert?
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He was married 5th June 1923 and his profession says 'soldier'. That's all really!
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His father's name?
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Yes I got that but I can't really get much further...it's all getting more complicated! I'm just going to focus on James Burke for now as his son (my grandad) knows nothing about his life and I'd like to find out as much as I can for him...he will be 84 next month so I'd like to find it all out sooner rather than later!
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If you tell us his father's name it might help the search for James.
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Awh thank you!
Well his father was also James Burke! He was a labourer. I don't know any more about him at this stage.
His mother was called Catherine Byrne. Her DOB is 14/02/1867 and DOD was 22/02/1950. She was also known as Kate.
The James Burke I'm looking for was born on 10/11/1899. He was in the Royal Naval Reserves from 20/03/18 for a few years.
He the joined the Irish Freestate Army on 14/09/1922.
He married Elizabeth Hayden on 5th June 1923. At this stage James lived in Killeigh, Avoca, Co.Wicklow.
A few years later he had a son John, and then a son James in 1931. As far as I'm aware is that he was involved in the 2nd world war as my grandad said he had some medals but unfortunately they were stolen some years ago. He was then working as a furnace operator in a metal foundry (Fry's Metal Foundry I think) in London until his death on 12/10/1963 in Tooting London at 64 years old.
That's as much info as I have! Hopefully I will find more soon :D
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Have you got the son's birth certs?
Was he still a Soldier?
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No I don't...I'm actually just about to look them up....and going to ask my dad if he can get my grandads.
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Do you know when he moved to England.
He was 40 by the time WWII started, you have to wonder if he was already working in a foundry it might be a reserved occupation as they may have been making stuff for the war.
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Is this the family in 1901 and 1911
The father is a Gamekeeper
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Wicklow/Kilbride/Kilbride/1815303/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Wicklow/Kilbride/Killeagh/896320/
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Just found out that on his son's birth cert from 1931 it says that he was a Sailor. Not sure which of those links is correct at the moment!
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Ireland didn't have a Navy as such until 1938
See here http://www.military.ie/en/naval-service/history/
So he may have rejoined the Royal Navy or joined the Merchant Navy. In which case I don't think the records are online.
It would make you wonder how long a term of service was in the Irish Free State Army. He can't have been with them very long.
Where was his son born?
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Yeah he doesn't seem to have stayed with any of them for too long. Hard to say too because he lived in Arklow, Co. Wicklow and that used to be a major fishing town. I'd imagine he was a Merchant Seaman then and that's why I can't find any records!
His son was also born in Arklow