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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Mel_Elsayed on Friday 17 July 15 09:26 BST (UK)
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I'm stuck and have searched high and low but can't seem to get any further. Thought I'd post incase someone can find something that I can't. All I've been able to find is the following info and looking for anymore on these people or possible family please!!
Antonio Smith (original Portuguese name unknown, no other family/parents known)
b. circa 1824 Portugal
d. 30th Mar 1866 Auckland
m. Margaret Seymour 5th Jul 1853 Auckland
m. Bridget Kennedy 4th Jan 1860 Auckland
Margaret Seymour (Burial record gives parents as James & Margaret Seymour)
b. circa 1832
d. 23rd Aug 1857 Auckland
confirmation: 19th Mar 1848 Auckland (only a name and date are on the record but I can't find any other Margaret Seymour's in the area so I'm assuming it's her)
I have everything on the descendants of the above. Looking to go back or find siblings. I've been focusing on Margaret Seymour because I thought she'd be most likely to have come here with family but haven't had any luck. Thought maybe her mother was a widow who remarried here or before and is under a different name. Or her parents died before records started?? I'm stuck here!!!!!!
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Here is the marriage to Bridget
1860/2222 Bridget Kennedy to Anthony Smythe
Cheers Janette
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Earlier thread re: Bridget KENNEDY
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=721554.0
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Hi Janette, thanks for that, yep I have the certificate but too early to give any helpful info.
Thanks Lucy2, that post was also mine but found the answers for that marriage. Just trying to find info on the first marriage, a child came from that one.
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Hi Mel,
Can you please tell us the source/s of your information on Antonio?
And do you know if he ever applied to be a naturalised New Zealander? If so this might give more information.
Spades
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Hi Spades,
The death certificate and burial record give his age.
The obituaries on paperspast say he was a Portuguese boatman.
His name is recorded multiple ways - Antonio, Anthony, Antony
Tried to find a naturalisation but no luck.
Info passes down through family is that he never naturalised and chose Smith to hide his roots. They also believed his Portuguese surname was Da Seymour but records show that was his wife's maiden name. I think their son was so young when they both died the info isn't reliable.
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I am not seeing this marriage on BDM NZ. Can you identify it please.
m. Margaret Seymour 5th Jul 1853 Auckland
".....I have everything on the descendants of the above."
Can you please identify the children born to Anthony SMYTHE.
Did Bridget marry again after death of Anthony?
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Where were they buried?
Cheers Janette
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Hi Wivenhoe, the marriage is a church record only. Was lucky to find it. Anthony and Margaret had one son - Michael Smith born 1856. No children to Bridget so I havent followed her up yet. Possibly remarried.
Hi Janette. The burial records from the Catholic Archives give a date of burial and that they're both buried in Auckland, no cemetery named. The burials were registered with St Patricks Cathedral
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Can you please give all the information on the marriage certificate please...ages...names...place...witnesses etc.
Can you identify the dates and newspapers for references to Portugese boatman etc for Anthony.
Who brought up Michael?
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Here is a link to the PapersPast articles
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=q&hs=1&r=1&results=1&t=2&txq=antonio+smith&pbq=&dafdq=&dafmq=&dafyq=1865&datdq=&datmq=&datyq=1867&tyq=&o=10&sf=&ssnip=&x=42&y=14&e=-------10--1----0--
Cheers Janette
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Hi wivenhoe, yep that's the link to the articles. And here's all the info I have on certificates:
Marriage: 5 July 1853
Antony SMITH - Bachelor, Auckland
Margaret SYMONS - Spinster, Auckland
Place of Marriage: Auckland (Registered with St Patricks Cathedral)
Witnesses: Alexis Flemming, Antony Martin
Marriage: 4 Jan 1860
Anthony SMITH - Age: Full, Sawyer, Widower
Bridget KENNEDY - Age: Full, Spinster
Place of Marriage: St Patricks Cathedral
Witnesses: Catherine Kates, Joseph Kates
Birth: 10 Feb 1856
Michael SMITH - North Shore, Auckland
Parents: Anthony Smith and Margaret formerly Seymour
Informant: John Nolan, Farmer, North Shore, Uncle (*I've tried to find a connection to the Nolan family but no luck, maybe he used the term in broader sense of the word - John Nolan married Margaret Dayer/Dane/Duane early 1830's had 3 children prior to 1840 when he came to NZ, had 3 more children in Auckland between 1842-50. He was originally living in Auckland City before the North Shore)
Death: 23 August 1857
Margaret SMITH - Formerly: Seymour, Age: 25, Brain Tumor, Informant: Anthony Smith
Burial: 26 Aug 1857, Auckland - Parents: James & Margaret Seymour
Death: 30 Mar 1866
Antonio SMITH - Age: 42, Heart failure, Informant: Antonio Martin
Burial: 31 Mar 1866, Auckland
Death: 13 Mar 1930
Michael Antoney SMITH - Big Omaha Northland, Age: 74, Boat builder
Parents: Anthony Smith, Boatman and Nellie Cati (*maybe this is who bought Michael up?)
Informant: Elizabeth Smith (nee Baker), Wife
I'm not sure what happened to Michael after his parents died. The mother listed on his death certificate isn't is his mother. His wife was the informant so she would have put whatever Michael had told her. All I have after his birth is an article from 1872, making him 15/16years old, stating he is a farmhand for someone in Matakana. Antonio Martin (witness twice) originally lived in Auckland City area and moved to the Matakana area around this time.
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Children ....?
1880/19032 SMITH Rupert Gordon
Elizabeth / Michael Antoney
1882/5362 SMITH NR
Elizabeth / Michael Anthoney
1883/14551 SMITH NR
Elizabeth / Michael
1884/14486 SMITH NR
Elizabeth / Michael Anthony
1885/13838 SMITH Anthoney Seamer
Elizabeth / Michael Anthony
1890/5364 SMITH Olive Ivey
Elizabeth / Michael Antoney
1892/4983 SMITH Michael Herbert
Elizabeth / Michael Antoney
1895/10078 SMITH Margaret Burness
Elizabeth / Michael Antoney
1899/1563 SMITH Ernest Wilfred
Elizabeth / Michael Antoney
SMITH Anthoney Seamer -
I suspect that this name is an attempt to record paternal grandmother's name....SEYMOUR / SYMONS.
Michael SMITH is brought up knowing his mother's family name.
Who would make that effort.........maybe her family?
I think this marriage certificate..
1878/3287 Elizabeth BAKER m. Michael Anthoney SMITH
would be useful to you.
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Another son
1897/13065 Smith James Eric Elizabeth Michael Antoney
Cheers Janette
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Yes thats their children. A few more boys. I think there were 12/13 births all together.
I do have the marriage certificate for Michael & Elizabeth. They married on Kawau Island but it was before parents details were recorded for marriages.
I'm in touch with a 91 year old descendant who is Michael's grandaughter. She was interested and questioned Michaels wife and children but all what shes told me the records have proved otherwise. She said she was told Antonio was previously 'da Seymour' and he married a Maori lady also Michaels mother but took their son when he was young and left her. She also thought Antonio died a lot later on and had worked on Kawau with Michael.
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Anthony SMITH m. Bridget KENNEDY 4 Jan 1860
Witnesses: Catherine KATES, Joseph KATES
Michael Antoney SMITH d. 13 Mar 1930
Parents: Anthony Smith, Boatman and Nellie Cati (*maybe this is who bought Michael up?)
is CATI and KATES the same name.......are you looking at images of handwritten original records, or transcripts?
Two marriages for Anthony SMITH, (and burial for Margaret SMITH?) are at same church. Do you have access to baptisms at this church to see baptisms and godparents for any children born to Anthony and his two wives? Godparents are often close family.
"... Anthony and Margaret had one son - Michael Smith born 1856. No children to Bridget..."
How have you been able to determine this?
What names do you have for children of SMITH - BAKER family, additional to what is listed here.
If there is a Bridget it might encourage you to think that Michael had contact (ie brought up by) Bridget SMITH nee KENNEDY.
Who are the witnesses named on marriage certificate for Michael Anthony SMITH and Elizabeth BAKER.
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BDM NSW births
1 / 1839 V18391 61 KATES Francis Joseph
695 / 1839 V1839695 133 KATES Francis
parents Joseph / Ellen
BDM NZ birth
1854/2473 KATES William John parents Ellen / Joseph
BDM death
1852/2076 KATES Mary Anne parents Catherine / Joseph
Is this Catherine / Ellen who is witness on marriage certificate, and possibly identified as parent on death certificate 1930?
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I did ask the archives if there were any baptisms for other children of Anthony but they said there was nothing. Michael wasn't baptised either. The marriage certificate for Michael has the witnesses James Smith, Farmhand, Kawau and Manuel Christian, Farmer, Matakana.
I also thought the same thing, there must be other children. Just one in that time is unusual but couldn't find anything. I tried following the James Smith witness but can't find anything either.
I checked the census for the KATES and they spell it KEATES. Joseph and Catherine lived on Chapel Street (same street where Antonio died).
Nellie Cati is a handwritten certificate but Joseph and Catherine Kates is on a transcript.
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Found!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Wivenhoe, I just followed on the Kates/Keates witnesses. Here's what I found:
Joseph Keates immigrated to Australia 1833 as a convict. Married 1839 to Eleanor (Catherine) SEYMOUR!! After you said that there were some matches appear in Australia.
I also searched Papers past for Catherine Keates and there's an article that says she had a situation resulting in police charges with Margaret O'Brien in 1860. On NZ BMD there's a Mary Seymour who married Edward O'Brien, BMD give 1848, Ancestry register it as 1840. I'm guessing this Mary/Margaret O'Brien (nee Seymour) is Margaret SMITH's mother!! I will have to order some certificates to confirm. But there is also a Margaret Seymour born 1832, New South Wales - mother: Mary, father: Thomas - this could be Margaret Smith.
I'm guessing the article about the police charges show that there was a family rift, or maybe it shows Margaret Seymour wasn't the most trustworthy of people and that's why she didn't take care of Michael.
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Hi Mel_Elsayed
Some further information for you re: Joseph KEATES.
As you've already discovered, he was transported to New South Wales, Australia as a convict in 1833.
He had been sentenced in Bristol (Gloucestershire) to 7 years in 1832 for rioting.
In the NSW Convicts Applications to Marry Registers (and Joseph KEATES appears to made two applications 1838 and 1839), there is additional info.
KEATES - Joseph - 31 years (7 years - Free) - Bachelor (Ship - "Heroine" )
SEYMOUR* - Elinor - 25 years - Came free - Widow (Ship - "Strathfieldsay" .. difficult to decipher)
[* Surname indexed as "SAYMOUR" ]
So this "Elinor SEYMOUR" (born circa 1814) was not a convict, but had arrived at some time on the abovenamed ship, either with a husband or she was already widowed .... or, she had married in Australia.
continues >
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At the NSW State Records website, you can view / search, the immigration passenger lists by "name of ship".
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/indexes-online
"Strathfieldsay" -- or, "Strathfieldsaye" -- arrrived NSW - 26 January 1838
This immigrant list doesn't show all passengers by name.
In the case of SEYMOUR, they're listed as a married couple.
The husband's name is shown as "Jas." (abbrev. for James), ...his occupation is "quarryman", he's 27 years. He has a wife aged 25 ... and three children under age 14, = 2 x boys, 1 x girl.
Their native place is given as "Tipperary" (Ireland).
The above (NSW site) also gives a link to FamilySearch, for "Assisted Bounty Immigrants to NSW - 1828-1842" ).
This gives a little more information (including names of wife (Ellen), the children and their ages.)
Children: Michael (3 yrs) , John (6 months) and Margaret, 4.5 years.
The child Margaret SEYMOUR (bc 1833) seems to be a good match for the Margaret SMITH (d. 1857) you have. Further, this Margaret also has a father named James !!
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And Peter Madden's excellent site, gives good information if your rellies arrived in Australia from Tipperary. ;)
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~maddenps/TIPPEM5.htm
Scroll down to find surnames beginning with "S".
[The native place of Ellen SEYMOUR has been given here and also the name and location of the Priest who would have acted as a referee for their emigration documentation. ]
I have further info to post on the KEATES family.
~ Lu
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"...Joseph and Catherine lived on Chapel Street (same street where Antonio died)."
Use PapersPast Auckland Star
6 Feb 1894 death notice for Catherine KEATS her residence Chapel St
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?
7 Mar 1888 death Joseph KEATES res. of his daughter Occidental Hotel
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?
23 Mar 1888 divorce Catherine LYNCH / Dennis LYNCH
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?
...I stayed with my mother Mrs KEATS in Chapel St
17 Jun 1890 fate of Occidental estate of Mr Lynch etc...children beneficiaries....
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?
21 Oct 1887 assault on daughter of Catherine LYNCH....
Benjamin KEATS is proprietor of Occidental Hotel
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?
Not sure where this Benjamin fits in ....
BDM NSW death
5106 / 1925 KEATES Benjamin Redfern
parents Joseph / Catherine
27353 / 1948 KEATES Benjamin John Concord
parents Benjamin John / Annie
13769 / 1941 KEATES Annie Marie Sydney
parents John / Bride
4582 / 1969 KEATES Gertrude Maude Sydney
parents Edward / Ellen
Rookwood Catholic Cemetery
KEATES Benjamin 62y 21 Apr 1925 SEC *M2*8*290 (b. ~ 1863)
KEATES Annie M 73yr 11 Aug 1941 SEC *M2*8*290
KEATES Benjamin J 60yr 20 Dec 1948 SEC *M2*8*289
KEATES Gertrude Maud 75yr 25 Aug 1969 SEC *M2*8*289
BDM NZ birth
1863/7588 KEATES Benjamin Christopher Stephen
parents Catherine / Joseph
There is a Probate file to see NZ for Catherine KEATES d. 1894.
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Hi Mel_Elsayed
Just to let you know that I still have info to post for KATES / KEATES family. ;)
"wivenhoe" has already given you some links I had been about to add, but there is further to come.
I'll attempt to do this shortly. (RootsChat must be busy at present, I'm have problems hooking up to site. ::) ;D )
~ Lu
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Hi Lucy2, thanks very much for all that. I received the death certificate for Catherine Keates. Gives her maiden name as O'Sullivan, father John O'Sullivan and born in Ireland. Two living children, Female 35yrs and Male 31yrs. Informant was the undertaker.
I'm trying to track down the other two Seymour children that came over on the Strathfieldsaye. Michael and John Seymour. I've contacted the Catholic archives again as Margaret had a confirmation in 1848, so maybe the two boys did too.
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I received the death certificate for Catherine Keates. Gives her maiden name as O'Sullivan, father John O'Sullivan and born in Ireland. Two living children, Female 35yrs and Male 31yrs. Informant was the undertaker.
Hi ... good idea to have got the death cert. for Catherine.
Yes, her maiden name was O'SULLIVAN (or SULLIVAN).
There is an early Auckland birth listed for what was probably her first child with Joseph ?
KATES - Mary Anne - b. 21 November 1852
Father: Joseph - labourer - Auckland
Mother: Catherine - nee SULLIVAN
Mary Anne KATES (aka KEATES / KEATS) died aged 6 years - 22 July 1858
Buried with her brother William John KEATS/KEATES - d. 1885 aged 31 - at Symonds Street Cemetery - St. Benedicts Section. [On list as removed graves from that cemetery - listed as KEATES].
The two surviving children (in 1894) of Catherine KEATES were, Catherine (formerly LYNCH) CLARKE and Benjamin KEATES, (aka Benjamin Christopher Stephen KEATES), blacksmith, of Auckland. This is the Benjamin KEATES who died in 1925 in NSW - as mentioned in "wivenhoe's" previous post.
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I'm trying to track down the other two Seymour children that came over on the Strathfieldsaye. Michael and John Seymour. I've contacted the Catholic archives again as Margaret had a confirmation in 1848, so maybe the two boys did too.
Hi ... what I haven't been able to find as yet, is the death of Ellen / Elinor / Eleanor / Nellie KEATES (or variant of that surname) ... either in Australia or NZ. ???
Wonder if it's worth also asking Catholic archives if they have a death / burial record ??
As to the SEYMOUR boys, (Michael and John), have found nothing for them either.
~ Lu
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Hi Mel
* Did the death cert. of Catherine KEATES contain any info on her marriage to Joseph ??
* Are "years in New Zealand" given for Catherine ??
I haven't found a marriage for them.
[There is a slightly amusing newspaper article about Catherine having taken a couple (who had been cohabiting), off to her church (St. Patrick's ??) to be married. On the basis of that, I would hope that Catherine herself had also "done the deed" with Joseph ? ;D
Added: "Hawkes Bay Herald" - 19 May 1881 - Magistrates Court -- Bigamy Trial -- Catherine KEATS and husband Joseph KEATE giving evidence. ]
~ Lu
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The New Zealand Herald of 8\3\1888 and 26/3/1888 has Joseph Keates died 7 March 1888 aged 82 years and buried 8 March 1888 in Symonds Street Cemetery. The Catholic burial register has Joseph Keates buried 7 March 1888 aged 82 years.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NZH18880326.2.79.3&srpos=2&e=08-03-1888-----10-NZH-1-byDA---0keates--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NZH18880308.2.2.2&srpos=1&e=08-03-1888-08-03-1888--10-NZH-1-byDA---0joseph--
Cheers Janette
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Mel ... if you're interested in reading the Probate files for Catherine and Joseph KEATES, they're available at the following link. They're not necessarily helpful to your search though.
Probate of the Will of Joseph KEATES (died 1888), wasn't actually sought until 1905.
On his file however is a typewritten transcription of the Will of Catherine KEATES (will dated 1891), which is much easier to read than the original, on her file.
Here's how to access >
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1865481
> scroll down to Browse through ____ images
> click on link to "Auckland Court"
> scroll to "Probate Records 1905 - P5426/05 ...
[Will of Joseph KEATES, Settler, of Auckland ]
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Catherine's Probate record (1894) is under the name "Catherine KEATS".
Access it in the same manner as given for Joseph's file.
Auckland Court
Year: 1894
Record Number: 1604
Catherine KEATS - Auckland - Widow -- Year: 1894
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There is a Probate file too for >
Joseph KEATES - Auckland - Printer -- Year: 1904 -- Record Number : 5310
It is only helpful in that it has his 1890 NSW Death Certificate annexed, which confirms his parentage.
Joseph KEATES - died 20 June 1890, Wollongong Memorial Hospital, NSW, AUS
34 years [bc 1856 ] - Born: Auckland NZ
5 years in NSW
Father: Joseph KEATES - Storeman
Mother: Catherine, nee O'SULLIVAN
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Second marriage for Catherine LYNCH (nee KEATS) Catherine CLARKE named in mother's Will
1891 / 3074 KEATS Catherine m. CLARKE George Maxwell
1891 / 8687 CLARKE Joseph William Keates parents Catherine / George Maxwell
1892 / 8368 CLARKE Douglas George parents Catherine / George Maxwell
NSW births
2692/1894 CLARKE Roy George Sydney
George M / Catherine
2693/1894 CLARKE Eric Sydney
George M / Catherine
27760/1896 CLARKE Beryl V Sydney
George M / Catherine
Auckland Star 2 April 1925
death of Catherine wife of late George Maxwell CLARKE....daughter's res. Mrs T H WINTER, Campsie, Sydney
BDM NSW death
6046/1925 CLARKE Catherine Canterbury
Joseph / Catherine
2331/1950 WINTER Margaret Spellman Canterbury
Denis / Catherine
Rookwood Cemetery
CLARKE Catherine 66yr 02/04/1925 SEC*M1*KK**160
WINTER Margaret S 64yr 27/01/1950 SEC*M2*15**4169
SMH 2 Apr 1925
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16192213?
death of Catherine CLARKE....m/o Etta WINTER (nee LYNCH), Joe and Beryla, late of Auckland NZ
SMH 28 Jan 1950
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18146781?
death notice for Margaret Spellman WINTER
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Thanks for all that info. I will have a read through of the probates.
Also there is a Catholic marriage record for Joseph Keates (widower) and Catherine O'Sullivan in 1852. Waiting to hear if there's a burial for Eleanor or records for the two Seymour boys.
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Also there is a Catholic marriage record for Joseph Keates (widower) and Catherine O'Sullivan in 1852.
That's good news. :)
* Could you post the details here please, when you have them ?
~ Lu
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I probably won't get that one, I descend from Margaret Seymour (of James and Margaret Seymour) so for me there's no direct link to Catherine or Joseph so just having the 1852 is enough. There's no record for a burial for Eleanor in the archives. Nor anything for Michael or John Seymour.
Tried to find an immigration record for Joseph Keates coming to New Zealand but couldn't find anything. Thought maybe it could tell us whether he came here with Eleanor or not to give an idea on when she died.
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For the purpose of finding early information about KEATES family I think this death record would be useful
1888/326 KEATES Joseph 82Y
When Catherine d. 1894 daughter Catherine CLARKE, formerly LYNCH, nee KEATES was in NSW.
Son Joseph had d. Wollongong 1890. Son Benjamin would have been in NZ 1894, so possibly source of information on his mother's death certificate.
When Joseph d. 1888 his wife Catherine was alive, so you might hope that Catherine gave information for her husband's death certificate.
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Re: John Nolan (from Michael Smith info) - Informant: John Nolan, Farmer, North Shore, Uncle (John Nolan married Margaret Dayer/Dane/Duane early 1830's had 3 children prior to 1840 when he came to NZ, had 3 more children in Auckland between 1842-50. He was originally living in Auckland City before the North Shore)
Is this John Nolan, Tipperary, arrived Kororareka on HMS Herald 18 Jan 1840), followed by wife Margaret and three sons, Patrick, Edward and Martin in March 1840, moved to Short St Auckland 1842, where first daughter Catherine born?
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Hi NoNonsenseNana,
Yes that would be the one. I have recently found that that John Nolan married Margaret nee Dean.
James Seymour's second wife Eleanor who married Joseph Keates was also maiden name Dean. Guessing they were probably sisters.
Mel
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Yes, 'Dean' accords with what I've got too. I'm a Nolan descendant, through Catherine.
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Hi there, I was in NZ a few years ago from Australia to follow up on family history. I'm a descent of Catherine and Joseph Keates/s. Catherine arrived in NZ (I believe) on The Stately. When I researched Joseph Keates life with the family research librarian at Auckland Library, I couldn't find where he came from.
Catherine Lynch, their daughter, was the licensee of The Occidental in Auckland and that is where newspaper reports have it where Joseph Keates worked and died. Catherine and Dennis Lynch's second daughter was Catherine (known as Margaret Spellman Lynch). Catherine/Margaret had an older sister, Catherine, who died young, family stories hint of a bad heart. Catherine/Margaret was named after her sister but was forever known as Margaret. Margaret Lynch married my grandfather, Theo Winter, in Sydney and her first born, Catherine (Kitty) Winter (married name Bennett), was my mother. I have seven children. Am interested in learning more about the NZ side of my family.