RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: watsonbrown on Sunday 25 November 18 00:15 GMT (UK)
-
Hi everyone.
Marshall is a common name, and there are many James Marshalls in London in the 1910s! The one I am interested in was living in Paddington, London as a boarder in 1911, where it was stated he was born in Camberwell, London in 1886. Army records exists of him where his date of birth is given as 1885. Also stated there is his next of kin as his sister, an Alice Marshall who lived in Devons Road, Poplar, London in 1915.
This James Marshall would later go on to marry Sarah Jacobs in 1920, and live in Poplar (different address to Alice, and not with Alice). From there all is well documented, however I cannot find any records of James' parents or of Alice, and none of the man himself James Marshall prior to 1911.
I have a copy of the 1920 marriage certificate, which states James Marshall's father was another James Marshall, but was deceased at the time.
I was hoping I would find a 1891 census of a James/James/Alice Marshall family household but to no avail. Neither could I find any record of James or Alice in the 1901 census. Also tried seeking census records by street name in case they were still there at the time, but again, no avail.
I've hit a dead end and thus seek advice, support, ideas, etc. All welcome. Also conscious, as you would expect, that there are many James Marshalls and so figuring the right one can also be a task of itself.
Many thanks.
-
Occupation of father?
-
If you say James is well documented from 1920 have you found a death and what about the 1939 register?
Louisa Maud
-
Welcome to RootsChat :)
There is a tree on Anc. that lists him as dying in 1926 in Poplar which is presumably this on FreeBMD
James Marshall age 39 Dec Qtr 1926 Poplar 1c 439
I don't suppose the witnesses at his wedding were any help :-\
Kay
-
Hi everyone, thanks for your replies thus far.
I have found a death for James Marshall (junior) 1926 in Poplar, that may well be my tree you found on Ancestry, Kay! I have ordered a copy of that certificate in hope it may shed some more clues around his birth and per-marital years.
I have found his wife in the 1939 census at a very familiar address in Essex that would become my grandfather's house, which confirms she was a widow at that time.
James Marshall Senior (the father) was marked as deceased on his son's James Marshall Junior's wedding certificate in 1920, so the rank or profession of father was left blank.
According to the 1911 census, when James Junior was a lodger in Paddington, his occupation was that of an Umbrella Manufacturer. Army records from 1915 and his marriage certificate from 1920 confirms the same address, so he had been living there for at least 9 years.
Again, welcome any help/advice!
-
Regarding the 1920 Marriage Certificate, there are witnesses listed as : H. Grier and J. Dennis (could be F. Dennis?)
I'm not finding these names helpful personally... just adding to the mystery of this elusive man!
-
I stand to be corrected here but do I understand as at 11/12/1915 he was aged 30 years 4 months, does it narrow it down a bit
Cant find a birth registered Camberwell to help either
Louis Maud
-
Hi, yes, i think you are right. To add to the mystery, his date of birth is inconsistent.
The maths do not add up when comparing the 1911, 1915/6, 1920 and 1926 records.
He was 24 in 1911, 30 in 1915/6, 33 in 1920 and 39 in 1926.
I’m sure it’s the same James in each scenario given the same addresses and wife.
I understand it was common for people to lie in order to join the army for example, but he was plenty old enough at the time, not as if he’d just turn 18 or anything. And of course, such as the time, details weren’t as well documented and accurate as they are today. I even forget my own age sometimes and have to do some mental maths!!
It could be the case he was born anywhere between 1885 and 1887 or even some years either side.
-
I have ordered a copy of that certificate in hope it may shed some more clues around his birth and per-marital years.
That is unlikely as there is very little useful info on a death cert.
https://www.bmd-certificates.co.uk/images/death_large.jpg
Debra :)
-
I appreciate that, but I can but hope :(
-
Welcome to Rootschat. He certainly seems to be a puzzling one.
Am I right in reading that his distinctive marks included “Old Camberwell” on his left leg - presumably a tattoo? Admittedly I am not sure where this would get you!
-
All I can find out about "old Camberwell " is there was a church there in the late 1700's.
I wonder if James starteed off life as a Marshall, just a thought
Have you found out Alice's date of birth?
Louisa Maud
-
Census 1911
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XW21-N9H
I cannot see the RYMILLs 1901 Census
FreeBDM DecQ 1895 Paddington 1a / 57
RYMILL Joseph Thomas m. HOBBS Fanny
This address - 1 Adpar Chambers - at Census 1911, at enlistment 1915, at marriage 1920?
-
05/05/1901 baptism for a Rymill child is given as 15 Mardale St, Shepherds Bush Hammersmith
Louisa Maud
-
This Joseph Rymill aged 41 joined the army at Aldershot 5/10/1915, perhaps James thought he had to go and do his bit as well.
Jennifer
-
Yes, Adpar Chambers is the address I have for him from at least 1911 to 1920, after which he would move in with his wife in Poplar, East London and all is well from there.
But before 1911, not a dicky bird!
I hadn’t thought about pursuing the Rymills or others, that could be an interesting approach though I would assume they would not be related or otherwise connected. I don’t know if the total household was the same throughout the 9 years he was there for.
Could it be he was adopted or changed his name? I guess it’s likely his birth date may be incorrect or lied about, but could the birth location be fabricated, too?
Thanks again. I know it’s a mystery and a bit of a dead end, hence the plea for help! :)
-
1901 RG13/42 FOLIO 157 PAGE 40
Listed as Ryneil
15 Mardale St Hammersmith
No sign of James Marshall
Louisa Maud
-
There is a tree on Anc. that lists him as dying in 1926 in Poplar which is presumably this on FreeBMD
James Marshall age 39 Dec Qtr 1926 Poplar 1c 439
Must be the chap buried at Woodgrange Park Cemetery, 22 Dec 1926. No ages given in these registers, but there is no other death reg of a James Marshall it could be.
Seems to have died at St Andrews Hospital
No. 1713
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH6-H9N4-H?i=741&cat=1161381
-
Death aged 39
Sorry Kay just realised you have already given this.
Jennifer
-
Do you know if Alice married? trying to trace Alice with a hope of finding James
Louisa Maud
-
1911 census and age at death consistent with birth 1887.
Jennifer
-
He is very elusive, can't find anything out about Alice that might lead us forward, oh well, we plod on
Louisa Maud
-
What names do you see for witnesses on the marriage certificate, 1920?.
Where did they marry ie church? What occupation for James MARSHALL?
What information do you see for Sarah JACOBS.....age...fathers name and occupation...address?
-
Unfortunately Wivenhoe this is what has been entered so far
James Marshall Senior (the father) was marked as deceased on his son's James Marshall Junior's wedding certificate in 1920, so the rank or profession of father was left blank.
Regarding the 1920 Marriage Certificate, there are witnesses listed as : H. Grier and J. Dennis (could be F. Dennis?)
It really is frustrating so far on James Marshall, him dying before 1939 hasn't helped either
Louisa Maud
PS, just thought, James Marshall didn't have his sister as witness to his marriage, I wonder if this means Alice had died prior to his marriage, it is quoted she was in Poplar Devons Road as at 1915
-
Hi all, an update for you, but first, to answer some questions:
I have no details on Alice except that he was James's sister in 1915/16, when James gave her address as Devons Road, Poplar, London. No house number or anything more precise.
James and his wife Sarah married in Paddington in 1920, which would be in his district/neighbourhood. On the marriage certificate, he was a sorter at the General Post Office. His father, another James Marshall, was deceased. I already know James and Sarah went on to live in East London, and Sarah after being widowed moved to Essex. The mystery is where did James come from - there is no record of him prior to 1911, and also, who is his sister Alice, again no records exists of her anywhere other than James' reference to her in his Army records.
Naturally, been searching myself. We know James (Junior) was born around 1884-7 in Camberwell, London. Making the fair and plausible assumption that his mother/father was local to Camberwell and all brothers/sisters would be registered in the same place and be born within 10 years of each other, I have found the following Marshalls registered in Camberwell around that time:
[1] Alice Daisy Marshall, age 26yo, a maid to a Japanese couple in the 1911 Census, residing in Kensington South.
[2] Alice Marshall as a 6yo in the 1891 census, one of many in the District South Metropolitan District School, Witham, Essex. This suggests Alice (and presumably James) were orphans.
I don't know obviously if it's the same Alice, but the orphanage would certainly explain the lack of parents. I could not find any other relevant Marshalls... could just be the two siblings.
I also found an Alice Marshall 1886 born Camberwell in the 1901 Census residing in Croydon as a 16yo daughter to Charles and Bridget Marshall, I'm taking that as not our girl, but wanted to mention it to rule it out.
-
I believe there is a link with Poplar, that I have yet to established. It is where his wife Sarah and Sarah's father were from. Newly weds James and Sarah moved to Poplar to be close to Sarah's family and presumably to be close to James' sister.
I would imagine James and his sister Alice to have been close. With Sarah being a neighbour of Alice, I imagine he met his would-be-wife either through his sister, or through visiting his sister.
Or maybe that's just wishful, romanticising thinking and it is nothing more than a coincidence, of course it's hard to say. Obviously no idea at all if Alice was a Devons Road for a long time, either... still cannot find her in any polling/census records. She may have moved a fair bit!
How many unaccounted Jame and Alice Marshalls can there be... Not sure how Alice came to be in Poplar or how James came to be in Paddington, assuming they were born in Camberwell.
I'll keep looking! Thanks a lot everyone - really would be nice to get this one solved!
-
Alice Daisy Marshall registered Dec qtr 1884 Lambeth
MMN Mills
So far no James
Louisa Maud
-
89 Malmesbury Road, Bow.
Likely address for James + Sarah (Sadie) from 1922 electoral register. Only Sadie there in 1927.
-
[2] Alice Marshall as a 6yo in the 1891 census, one of many in the District South Metropolitan District School, Witham, Essex. This suggests Alice (and presumably James) were orphans.
Info on her and her brother
Camberwell Board of Guardians
Register of Children Sent to South Metropolitan School District, 1889-1892
James Marshall, age (born) 1881, maintained at Sutton, admitted 22.2.87
Alice Marshall, 1884, maintained at Witham, admitted 6.9.87
Description - Deserted
Discharge - 91 (?)
Relative/Parent - Mother Mary A Marshall,
26 Oppenheim Rd, Essex Rd, Islington (struck through)
Particulars of Chargeability - Deserted by Father + Mother. Warrant for Father
-
How sad
Louisa Maud
-
Can't find the same MMN for James and Alice
Louisa Maud
-
Sad, yes.
Not sure about that "91" in pencil for discharge
They are in the next book, from 1892
James 1881
Alice 1884
Deserted by Father
For James Marshall, Sutton is crossed out and Witham written in pencil, with a date 21.8.93
-
So I guess this is him at Sutton in 1891
Age 8, place of birth Not Known
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QXJG-DT2
In the next book, which is from 1897
-
The only familiar thing about this
1901 Ref RG13/1201 FOLIO 131 PAGE 40 is James Marshall aged 19 post office counter clerk boarder in Acton
BUT
place of birth is Portsmouth
Louisa Maud
-
It looks as if both parents deserted these poor little ones, where was the mother, one would assume she also is in a workhouse, what a pity these children were split up but the good things is they found each other
You are doing well Jon
-
I was doing well LM, but running out of options.
Not picking these two up in workhouse records?
In that last book available, from 1897, there's also William Marshall, born 1884, alongside the entries for James + Alice, but I don't think he is anything to do with them (his father was Joseph)
They seem to have lost the mother ("no trace")
Couple of discharges for Alice in 1898, the second one was to service with a Mrs Nursh or more likely is Marsh perhaps?, 50 Pelham Rd, Wimbledon.
Might be worth looking at the London Poor Law School District Registers on ancestry, which they have indexed.
John
-
Thanks Jon. Very fascinating. Very sad, but of course the legacy exists... Sadie by all accounts seems to have come from a rich family and really helped James out. And tragically it would be the case their houses and neighbourhood would be completed devastated by both world wars. What a life to have lived, I could never imagine it.
It's a poignant thought that James may literally never have known his actual birthday or date of birth, hence the discrepancies.
Could we get a birth record from Camberwell? I tried looking for each year 1884-7 on ancestry.co.uk but could not find anything. Is it possible/likely they weren't born/registered in Camberwell and this was a false assumption or something, as was his age? Did also consider it maybe registered as Peckham or Southwark but I'm really not having much luck.
Any indication of a third/other siblings? Could there be a cause for deserting, eg. another marriage, rape, prostitution? I can but wonder...
-
Yes, it is most likely James did not know where he was born, it is laborious looking through ONS for a familiar mother 's maiden name for Alice and James , I have listed quite a few but nothing familia so far
Well done to Jon
Louisa Maud
-
Alice Daisy Marshall registered Dec qtr 1884 Lambeth.
MMN Mills
So far no James
Louisa Maud
Alice Daisy Marshall (born 24 or 25 Oct 1884) isn’t the abandoned child - she’s a daughter of John Thomas Marshall and Alice Mills who married in Lambeth Jun qtr 1884.
She is with parents:
In Lambeth in 1891 as Alice Marshall: RG12/406/138/29
In Brixton in 1901 as Alice D Marshall: RG13/481/64/7
-
Of course the parents might never have married
Louisa Maud
-
Thanks Jon again for your insightful breakthrough, I do believe it be the case. Such a sad revelation, but not unsurprising.
Switching my attention now to Alice. I wonder if she married, went on to have children, etc.
I found a Baptism record for an Alice Mary Ann Marshall, parents James and Mary Ann, born 18th Dec 1883, baptised 6th Jan 1884 at St Pauls Hammersmith. There is also an address of 9 Elsic Street (reading 19th century handwriting not my strong point). This is presumably a Hammersmith/Fulham address.
Separately, I found a Poor Law Removal/Settlement medical record, dated 13/5/85 referencing the same 9 Eldwick Street (handwriting!!) It says:
Mary Marshall aged 22, wife of James Marshall, married at St Lukes(?) church 3 years.
2 children, James John 2+half born Stratford, and Alice Mary Ann 1yr4months.
Husband was living at the time of marriage at 10 Chance Street Stratford, 1year.
...some handwriting I cannot read but seems to say husband left Beaumont near Colchester in 1878, parents born in Beaumont.
So, I noticed James was said here to have been born in Stratford here not Camberwell, but would explain the lack of Camberwell birth records and I now hope to either link everything up, or find it's another family thus ruling them out... and not sure the link between Hammersmith and Camberwell. James may or may not have been born in Camberwell but presumably there's a link to that area somehow.
But I am tired now and must sleep!!
-
Fascinating success ;D I think the marriage of James and Mary is on Anc
6 Aug 1882 St Jude, Bethnal Green, Tower Hamlets,
James Marshall age 21 Labourer - father William Marshall - Labourer
Mary Ann Hummerston age 19 - father Thomas Hummerston - Weaver
Witnesses William Hummerston and Mary Ann Marshall - All signed
Kay
Added -The Beaumont Colchester clue ? https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFFT-HSZ
-
Birth registrations:
James John Marshall, mother’s maiden name Hummerston, Dec qtr 1882 Bethnal Green 1c 240
Alice Mary Anne Marshall, mmn Hummerstone, Mar qtr 1884 Fulham 1a 225
also
Rose Elizabeth Marshall, mmn Hummerston, Dec qtr 1885 Camberwell 1d 856
-
Mary Ann Hummerston, mmn Higgins, birth reg Mar qtr 1863 Bethnal Green 1c 311.
Baptised 9 September 1866 at Bethnal Green - parents Thomas & Charlotte Ann.
-
James Marshall, mmn James, birth reg Jun qtr 1860 Tendring* 4a 210 (*covers Beaumont).
He was a “late lamb” for his parents!
William Marshall married Mary James, Dec qtr 1837 Tendring.
A postem on FreeBMD says the marriage took place at St Leonard’s, Beaumont-cum-Moze, 16 Dec 1837.
-
1881 30 Charlotte Street Bethnal Green
Thomas Hummerston aged 47
Esther 51
Elizabeth 20
Mary Ann 18
Alice 16
Thomas 13
all born Bethnal Green except Esther who was born Spitalfields and all in Weaving trade
Marriage gives Charlotte Street as Mary Ann's address,
Well we were all thrown by the Camberwell link !!
Louisa Maud
-
I found a Baptism record for an Alice Mary Ann Marshall, parents James and Mary Ann, born 18th Dec 1883, baptised 6th Jan 1884 at St Pauls Hammersmith. There is also an address of 9 Elsic Street (reading 19th century handwriting not my strong point). This is presumably a Hammersmith/Fulham address.
Separately, I found a Poor Law Removal/Settlement medical record, dated 13/5/85 referencing the same 9 Eldwick Street (handwriting!!) It says:
Mary Marshall aged 22, wife of James Marshall, married at St Lukes(?) church 3 years.
2 children, James John 2+half born Stratford, and Alice Mary Ann 1yr4months.
Husband was living at the time of marriage at 10 Chance Street Stratford, 1year.
...some handwriting I cannot read but seems to say husband left Beaumont near Colchester in 1878, parents born in Beaumont.
Hi
Well done for finding all that, and well done everybody!
So pleased that the elusive James has been found, and hope that you are now able to discover what happened to Alice.
John
-
I must say I am very impressed with watsonbrown, a new comer to RC but he also did a lot of research himself
Louisa Maud
-
What about this child registered 1885 Camberwell, MMN Hummerston
Rose Elizabeth Marshall
baptised St Giles Camberwell
29/12/1885
father James mother Mary Ann
address given as Workhouse
Louisa Maud
PS Looks as if they are in the workhouse, Rose's birth 03/12/1885,
James, MaryAnn and little Rose Elizabeth
Camberwell Parish Havil Street,
I am assuming this is the same family as she has Hummerston as her mother's maiden name, wonder what happened to her?
-
Watsonbrown
Don't know how far you want to go with this
Marriage 19/11/1866
St James Bethnal Green
Thomas Hummerston W 30 Charlotte St fth William
to
Esther Wensly/Wensby W Charlotte St fth William Coombs
all in weaver trade
Witnesses William Hummerston and Joseph D ?
It looks as if they were settled as Charlotte St is mentioned later on in census and marriage, pity James and Mary were so unsettled
Louisa Maud
-
Thanks everyone for their help on this. I had started my family research some years ago now, gotten to this branch last year and obviously been stuck here pretty much since. I am glad to have some new information!
We've gone from looking 1885/6 Camberwell to 1881 Stratford, and I would never have figured that if it weren't through the school records and Jon's and Louisa's help.
I will take some time out now, to digest, piece together, discuss with my immediate family etc. It's quite a lot to take in. I am if nothing else curious as to whatever happened to Alice and I will come back to that, all in good time. I also wonder if the police warrant for James Senior ever resulted in an arrest/charge.
Will review in a week or two! Thanks again.
-
You are very welcome, it was interesting to say the least, as regards the warrant I have no idea how to go about that
Alice is elusive as well even though we know here date of birth, assuming once again it is correct
Happy Hunting
Louisa Maud
-
Albert Henry Sibbons married Rose Marshall 1904, date of birth 3/12/1885 matches 1939 index
Jennifer
-
According to online tree Rose died Eastbourne 1961
Jennifer
-
Good find Jennifer c
Wonder where she was on 1901?
Louisa Maud
PS "Celebrity get me out of here " is on otherwise I would have a look now!!!
-
We did find a Marshall born 1885 Camberwell in the end, just not the one we thought.
Jennifer
-
Possible death for Albert Sibbons 1935 Newton Devon
Albert and Rose had at least 2 children, possibly another 2
Louisa Maud
-
Thanks Jennifer, and Louisa (hope Celebrity Get me out of here was good!!)
I tried looking for Alice again, nothing in 1939, no death between 1915 and 1939 either that I could find... either I am missing something (quite probable) or she changed her name (not improbable).
I wonder if it's because of the middle names... because I did find Alice Marshalls, but I am dismissing them because they are have different middle names... I think there was only one mention of her middle name being Alice Mary Ann in a handwritten medical record at a workhouse.. not sure that is reliable. It does bring a little smirk to my face how one conversation 130+ years ago is causing me to write this today!!
This Devons Road Poplar address is also still a mystery... I did try checking every household with that address. Tried and did not succeed :(
Could someone just vanish without a trace? Surely brother James would have missed her....
Appreciate you all keep trying, I will take a week or so off so forgive me if I don't reply or acknowledge sooner. I do appreciate all your help... very much so; thanks a lot.
-
The middle names are also on Alice’s birth registration - see reply #42.
-
Sorry avm, you are quite right, and thank you too. Also in the baptism.
I find it so hard to believe James, Alice and Rose were all abandoned. Presumably there was no money to bring them up, or perhaps a (very big!) family feud. It does sound like at least the mother wanted to register them, and carry on her name. And for three children in quick succession. The 1880s certainly an eventful time for the Marshalls!
-
I haven't found an Alice that fits, a search of just her Christian names and date of birth on 1939 would be a huge task
As sad as the research has been it was enjoyable and between us we have unearthed family you didn't know existed
Yes, people can disappear without trace, I have one of my own, wife and 2 children died and he just vanished, I can't wait for the 1921 census and hopefully I might find him, you might well find Alice in time, my one who vanished had an unusual surname, only 14 at one time in this country, he didn't go abroad either,
Watson brown , you also did a lot of research yourself which I found very helpful, I was very impressed if you don't mind my saying
Good luck in your future research
Louisa Maud
PS, I don't think you will find Alice on the electoral registers before about 1920 if my memory serves me correctly, please correct me if I am wrong, Mrs Pankhurst and her friends if you remember, but as always I stand to be corrected
-
One thing that comes to mind again, why didn't Alice sign as a witness to the marriage in 1920, that makes me think she might have died before then, after all he did put her down as next of kin so they must have been close
Louisa Maud
H Grier, wonder if it is Harry John Grier listed with Rosina at 40 Woodfield Place, Paddington, just a thought?
-
According to online tree Rose died Eastbourne 1961
Jennifer
I found a potential Alice match in the 1901 census as a servant:
Sussex > Eastbourne > District 08 > Schedule 110
Piece 880 Folio 39 Page number 22
Heads are Joseph and Fanny Willmott of 9 Wellington Square.
Perhaps Alice and Rose moved to Eastbourne together, and she wasn't a witness of the 1920 wedding because of distance...
Thoughts?? I really cannot find much else!
-
Ok so this might be a long shot but I shall keep trying :)
I found a Maggy Marshall in Eastbourne... aged 18 in the 1901 census.
Sussex > Eastbourne > District 12
Piece 881 Folio 19 Page number 29
Schedule 181 at 18 Pevensey Road
Head is a William Everest and Emma Everest. Maggy is a cousin and in-laws also listed with surnames Pierce and Ayers.... with births in London.
So... if we can find an Everest / Pierce / Ayes related to James/Alice (that is James Marshall senior or Mary Ann's maiden name) then I think we have the jig-saw complete. Am I thinking that right?
It would make sense if there was a cousin the same age in Eastbourne to help out.... the parents may have abandoned them but surely the aunts and uncles would have a part to play.
Equally keen to rule that out if not the case.
-
My excitement quickly died down when I realised we already have a maiden name Hummerston for Alice, and the Marshalls were all born in Essex so.... boo!
But... but but but... ah I'm overthinking trying to find an explanation. I need a rest from it lol
-
This won't help from 1901
Eastbourne
John S Everest 11 months MMN Pierce
Maggy Marshall, reg'd Margaret MMN Everest
Louisa Maud
-
Can we find out who Margaret Everest married to become Mrs Marshall?
-
How about this
John Marshall to Frances Everest Pancras 1877
Louisa Maud
-
21/05/1877
St Matthew St Pancras
John Marshall full age baker and confectioner of Fulham fth William Engineer Dec
to
Frances Everest full age of Fulham fth William James Gardener
witnesses
William Henry Everest
William Todd
Fanny Everest
Louisa Maud
-
Just to recap
Maggy Marshall on 1901 was a single girl, it is her parents marriage that I have found in the last 2 messages, she is together with her parents on 1891
Louisa Maud
-
Thanks Louisa. Maggy was a hopeful tangent but a funny coincidence to find a London-born Marshall in Eastbourne of the same age not living with her parents.
I've not come across a John Marshall yet so does appear to rule her out.
We keep trying!
-
1891 Tooting RG/12 549 FOLIO 118 PAGE 22
John Marshall aged 42 BORN Scotland
Frances 42
JOHN AGED 13
Frances 10
Margret (Maggy on 1901) 8
Laura 5
William 10 months
Louisa Maud
-
Still looking out for Alice Mary Ann Marshall, bearing in mind from baptismal records we know here ate of birth
On Ancestry family trees there is a very interesting entry, using baptism records for this child but completely different research to what we have been searching for, hopefully one the postees would like to have a look including watsonbrown, what do you all think?
Louisa Maud
-
Looks like a case of one size fits all again for an ancestry tree.
Jennifer
-
Still looking out for Alice Mary Ann Marshall, bearing in mind from baptismal records we know here ate of birth
On Ancestry family trees there is a very interesting entry, using baptism records for this child but completely different research to what we have been searching for, hopefully one the postees would like to have a look including watsonbrown, what do you all think?
Louisa Maud
Hi Louisa, I don't follow, what did you find on Ancestry? I do question everything I find on Ancestry, many users do tend to link the first thing Ancestry hints and that can make for some crazy assumptions!
...
In other news, I received James Marshall's death certificate this weekend. It confirms the informant a Sarah Marshall and their Malmesbury Road Bow Address, so definitely the same James. The date : December 1926. Location of death given as 73A Devons Road.
I thought aha! An address! I must find out who lived there! I been searching the 1911 Census to see who lived at that address 73A Devons Road Poplar, in case any Marshalls were there at that time! I found plenty of the address Devons Road, firstly, all the even numbers, lovely. Then I realised they were just even numbers... no odd numbers anywhere. Deep breath, try again. Found a random entry for an odd numbered Devons Road address, and flipped a few pages from there. All looked good, 83, 81, 79, 77, 75.... then suddenly another road! I couldn't believe it!
I had found out that 73 Devons Road (not 73A) was actually the address of an old pub:
https://pubshistory.com/LondonPubs/Bromley/DukeEdinburgh.shtml
Aha! Lets find that on the 1911 census, surely 73A would be the next entry.... oh but no, it would be the very first entry of the 3rd District... Obviously it was right on the border. Checked the last of the previous district and the next district... oh the frustration.
Long story short, couldn't find 73A Devons Road Poplar in the 1911 Census.
Searching the internet generally, I discovered that this address was actually a hospital/asylum:
https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/13806-Poplar-amp-Stepney-Sick-Asylum
Indeed, a few internet searches told me many died at 73A Devons Road, it is not a residential address.
So I can confirm James definitely died 1926, but none the wiser about Alice. I must say, I am happy we solved the James mystery, and thank you and all for that. Very glad, however we have a new mystery that is whatever happened to his sister, Alice. I do believe she existed, and is the brother of James with James Snr. and Mary Ann as the parents, given the scholar, birth and baptism records.
I do suspect she died, unmarried and childless, between 1915 and 1920, in the asylum, but would be good to show that. I wonder, that if in 1914/5 when James was registered in the army, it did actually refer to the asylum, given he had noone else being abandoned by his parents...
Anyone any ideas on possible routes I could go down from here to close this one off?
-
Searching the internet generally, I discovered that this address was actually a hospital/asylum:
https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/13806-Poplar-amp-Stepney-Sick-Asylum
or St Andrews Hospital!
Says renamed in 1920.
https://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/standrewsbow.html
Seems to have died at St Andrews Hospital
No. 1713
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSH6-H9N4-H?i=741&cat=1161381
-
Got a feeling from memory, thrown papers away now, that there was an Alice in an Islington home/workhouse aged 35 somewhere about 1919, BUT I stand to be corrected, will have a another look later just in case I am mistaken
Louisa Maud
-
I did find this, I have no idea if it is your Alice Marshall
dated admitted 29/11/1919
St Johns Road Workhouse Islington register
Alice M Marshall aged 35
I cannot find her discharge as yet
What do you think
so , if this is her would she have died there ?
Louisa Maud
-
In other news, I received James Marshall's death certificate this weekend. It confirms the informant a Sarah Marshall and their Malmesbury Road Bow Address
Who was Sarah?
Louisa Maud
-
His wife.
Jennifer
-
Of course, silly me, thanks Jennifer
Louisa Maud
All we need now is to find Alice
-
I did find this, I have no idea if it is your Alice Marshall
dated admitted 29/11/1919
St Johns Road Workhouse Islington register
Alice M Marshall aged 35
Weekly Admissions, image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1R-Q8MV?i=747&cat=1224679
Says she was single.
-
It's not her.
An earlier admission, 24 May 1919
Alice Maud Marshall
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1R-QZZ5?i=474&cat=1224679
-
Oh, blow!!!!!
Louisa Maud
-
Could be just as well! Because she was to be in Hagar Ward. Which was for female lunatics, or certainly had been at one time.
I've come across two (distant) male rellies who had spells in Islington's Ishmael Ward. One seems to have gone berserk with a policeman, but he apparently quickly returned to his senses.
The other disappeared for ever into asylums.
John
-
or St Andrews Hospital!
Says renamed in 1920.
https://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/standrewsbow.html
Thanks Jon, it is somehow slightly comforting he died in a relatively 'modern' hospital rather than an asylum. For what it's worth, despite being abandoned as a child he seems to have found stable work, lived steadily for at least 9 years, joined the army, and then had 6 years of marriage with Sarah. Despite the circumstances, seems he was of sound mind. Alice, not so...? Yet he put her as next of kin... but maybe because he had noone else?
All, appreciate the continue efforts to find Alice!
-
Still looking out for Alice Mary Ann Marshall, bearing in mind from baptismal records we know here ate of birth
On Ancestry family trees there is a very interesting entry, using baptism records for this child but completely different research to what we have been searching for, hopefully one the postees would like to have a look including watsonbrown, what do you all think?
Louisa Maud
Just thought it was worth listing why that baptism cannot belong to the De Zouche Marshall family.
1. John James de Zouche Marshall is a Surgeon NOT James a labourer
2. Other children apparently baptised Lamberhurst. Why would you suddenly have one baptised in London.
3. Marriages of other children take place during decade pre ww1. 1901, 1904 & 1910. Father is a witness at all. And signs as John J De Z. Marshall. Ie known as John.
4. From 3, If Alice Was a de Zouche Marshall one would expect her to either be very obvious or dead.
I am sure there are other reasons, but that seems enough
-
No, in my opinion they are not connected but that is what is showing
Louisa Maud
-
Hi All
I have really enjoyed watching this thread develop and all the great finds along the way.
With Alice still outstanding, wondering it this could be her in 1901:
Alice M Marshall 18 housemaid b. Hammersmith
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSJH-7L4
Monica :)
ADDED: Watsonbrown, you have this entry already I see. Post getting long!