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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Kerry => Topic started by: ladybird on Monday 11 February 19 21:30 GMT (UK)
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Sorry to butt in here folks but do any of you have McClures in Kenmare, Co Kerry please.
Catherine McClure is the mother of my maternal G/Grandmothers baptised in Templenoe 1859
She was possibly born around the 1830-40s and her father may have been James
Ever hopeful :)
thank you
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Sorry to butt in here folks but do any of you have McClures in Kenmare, Co Kerry please.
Catherine McClure is the mother of my maternal G/Grandmothers baptised in Templenoe 1859
She was possibly born around the 1830-40s and her father may have been James
Ever hopeful :)
thank you
have you looked on this site?
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0666
or this site
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
Co Donegal and Co Kerry are are wee way from each other.....at opposite ends of the west coast of Ireland
You might like to ask to have the request moved to the Co Kerry board.
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Sorry to butt in here folks but do any of you have McClures in Kenmare, Co Kerry please.
Catherine McClure is the mother of my maternal G/Grandmothers baptised in Templenoe 1859
She was possibly born around the 1830-40s and her father may have been James
Ever hopeful :)
thank you
have you looked on this site?
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0666
or this site
https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
Co Donegal and Co Kerry are are wee way from each other.....at opposite ends of the west coast of Ireland
You might like to ask to have the request moved to the Co Kerry board.
Indeed! For the benefit of both parties it is much better to have separate threads.
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Sorry to butt in here folks but do any of you have McClures in Kenmare, Co Kerry please.
Catherine McClure is the mother of my maternal G/Grandmothers baptised in Templenoe 1859
She was possibly born around the 1830-40s and her father may have been James
Ever hopeful :)
thank you
She wasn't born Catherine McClure !
You have the Baptism which shows her maiden name as per Baptism of her twins in Templenoe 1859.
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CHURCH Marriage results for McClure of TEMPLENOE from 1840 to 1859 churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie
Displaying results 2
Marriage of JOSEPH WILDE of KENMARES and MARIA MCCLURE of OLD DROMORE
on 15 April 1857
Parish/Church/Congregation - TEMPLENOE
Area - KERRY (COI)
Marriage of WILLIAM LEWIS of KILARNEY and ARABELLA MCCLURE of OLD DROMORE
on 30 November 1859
Parish/Church/Congregation - TEMPLENOE
Area - KERRY (COI)
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Hi Ladybird
I'm a bit confused with this thread.
What is the name of the child born 1859 and do you have that baptism record?
Who was that child's Mother/Father?
Where do twins come into the picture?
Finally, why is there mention of Arabella and Maria McClure marrying in 1857 and 1859?
I notice Maria's Father is listed as James, a farmer.
Can you please clarify.... or am I missing something.
Kind regards
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Sorry everyone, I didn't realise this had been moved :-[
OK yes there has been a lot of confusion over the years about the birth of my 2 g/grandmothers (twins)
This entry has been confirmed by the local parish Priest …….
"Baptism - some name confusion but correct entry
Source....
Townland | Civil Parish | Barony | Poor Law Union | County
Dromore Templenoe Dunkerron South Kenmare Kerry
Entry number 170.
(my note: Baptised Roman Catholic)
Born on 6th August 1859, Baptised on 27th August 1859, Sara & Francesca [Latin], the illegitimate daughters of John McClure and Catherine Mara of Dromore. Daniel Kelly and Mary Sullivan stood as Sara & Francesca’s sponsors.
The surnames of mother and father have been transposed, whether by a kindly priest at that time I don't know, to give the girls their father's surname.
So
John Mara and Catherine McClure gave birth to Sarah and Francesca Mara.
Also, in the Tithe Applotment books for 1840
James McClure leased a house, offices and land from D. Mahony in the townland of Old Dromore. The record was taken on 28th September 1852.
James McClure also leased property in the townlands of Cappancush West and Reacashlagh.
Is there anyway I can find a connection between James and Catherine.
sorry I realise it's well nigh impossible, it's taken me years to get this far :(
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Sorry everyone, I didn't realise this had been moved :-[
OK yes there has been a lot of confusion over the years about the birth of my 2 g/grandmothers (twins)
This entry has been confirmed by the local parish Priest …….
"Baptism - some name confusion but correct entry
Source....
Townland | Civil Parish | Barony | Poor Law Union | County
Dromore Templenoe Dunkerron South Kenmare Kerry
Entry number 170.
(my note: Baptised Roman Catholic)
Born on 6th August 1859, Baptised on 27th August 1859, Sara & Francesca [Latin], the illegitimate daughters of John McClure and Catherine Mara of Dromore. Daniel Kelly and Mary Sullivan stood as Sara & Francesca’s sponsors.
The surnames of mother and father have been transposed, whether by a kindly priest at that time I don't know, to give the girls their father's surname.
So
John Mara and Catherine McClure gave birth to Sarah and Francesca Mara.
Also, in the Tithe Applotment books for 1840
James McClure leased a house, offices and land from D. Mahony in the townland of Old Dromore. The record was taken on 28th September 1852.
James McClure also leased property in the townlands of Cappancush West and Reacashlagh.
Is there anyway I can find a connection between James and Catherine.
sorry I realise it's well nigh impossible, it's taken me years to get this far :(
Well the Church record says
John McClure and Catherine Mara gave birth to Sarah and Francesca McClure!!
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634291#page/14/mode/1up
How do you know names have been transposed
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As I said a lot of confusion :-)
These are definitely my g/grandmothers (my own mother remembered her grandmothers) their surname was definitely Mara and their father was definitely John Mara. I had some discussion via email about this with the priest who helped me and he could throw no more light on it
Just for a bit of a laugh I'll throw this in too showing the horrors of the IGI. Ignore it, it is totally wrong. Right names wrong people :-)
IGI entry
SARAH TOWNSEND (my note - Meara)
Birth: 06 AUG 1859 Dronnore, , Kerry, Ireland (my note - Dromore, Kenmare, Co Kerry)
Parents:
Father: JOHN MCCLURE TOWNSEND (my note - Meara)
Mother: CATHERINE O MEARY (my note - McClure)
Source Information:
Batch Number: 6940410
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Your kin got up to all sorts! ;D ;D
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I am still a bit confused. I have had relations where the parents were not married at the time of christening (COI) and/or civil registration. All of them have been registered under the father's name whether or not they were married. They may have been cohabiting. Some of them never got married, the child was brought up by the mother.
I am aware that where single mothers gave birth and the father was not named (NR) on the certificate the child took the mother's name. Often the mother would make the father's name as a second name.
But in this case you are saying that people on the register did not actually exist ie there was never a John McClure or a Catherine Mara who cohabited and had two daughters. Or
Are you saying there was a Catherine Mara and a John McClure who did not marry and therefore you are surprised that the births were registered in father's name and not the mother's?
Whose last names are incorrect? What would you have expected the girls surname to be.
Which of Sara or Frances was your great grandmother? Or was Catherine XXXX your gt grandmother
Did Catherine Y or John X ever marry, if not to each then to others?
I can see a marriage in St Peters Dublin COI in 1864 of a John McClure of Kenmare, Parish of Kenmare Co Kerry to Sebilla Ellen Ferguson. John gives his occupation as land steward and his father's name is James McClure a farmer.
Looking for Catherine McClure there is a dob of 18/11/1844 Tralee. Does this date fit with her death date? If she is the Catherine McClure then she would have been 14 in August 1859. Her parents are shown as John McClure and Ellen Leary
I am still searching. If the father was out of the picture then it would be likely that the girls would have been known by their mother's name if a Mara.
I think the young couple went along with sponsors to baptise their children even though they were not married. There would have been no reason to hide this and they may have wanted to do the right thing.
I note that the baptism immediately above is also baptised under the fathers name even though the child is illegitimate see Maria Connor with father John Connors and Maria Burns.
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Looking for Catherine McClure there is a dob of 18/11/1844 Tralee. Does this date fit with her death date? If she is the Catherine McClure then she would have been 14 in August 1859. Her parents are shown as John McClure and Ellen Leary
The McClure/Leary marriage took place in Tralee on 4/2/1837. They had other children as well as the Catherine McClure above in 1844
Thomas McClure 8/5/1840
Mary McClure 23/8/1847 and interestingly one of the sponsors is a Mary O'Meara
Mary McClure 21/7/1842
Ellen McClure 12/2/1838
Here are some Mara entries
Catherine Mara bapt Kenmare Co Kerry on 21/4/1820 daughter of Morgan Mara and Ellen Connor
This one would have been 39 in 1859. It is well known that older birth mothers have a greater chance of giving bith to twins.
Catherine Mara bapt Kilcummin 30/4/1834 so 25 in 1859. parents Cornelius mara and mary Leyne
There are many
Here is the reference again
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/
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I'm sorry I don't seem to be explaining myself very well.
John Mara and Catherine McClure had illegitimate twin daughters, Sara and Francesca, born 1859.
Those daughters married, and the son of Sara Mara and the daughter of Francesca married (yes 1st cousins) hence Sara and Francesca are both my g/grandmothers
I have never found a marriage for either John Mara or Catherine McClure to each other or someone else
The Priest I had contact with found a possible death for Catherine under the name of Mara
Death registered in the District of Kenmare ...in the County of Kerry
#203 26th Aug 1910, Kenmare Workhouse
Kate Mara, Templenoe, spinster(? - my note) aged 86 years (1824), servant, Senile decay
Informant John J. O'Sullivan, Kenmare Workhouse
Registered 8th Sept 1910, Registrar J Horgan.
A thought has just struck me that although the girls were baptized Catholic they were brought up Protestant. Would that possibly have made a difference as to whether John Mara and Catherine McClure were actually allowed to marry?
Oh dear!! :-\
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These two entries could be connected:
Birth 1820
Catherine Mara bapt Kenmare Co Kerry on 21/4/1820 daughter of Morgan Mara and Ellen Connor
This one would have been 39 in 1859. It is well known that older birth mothers have a greater chance of giving bith to twins.
Death 1910 at age 86
Death registered in the District of Kenmare ...in the County of Kerry
#203 26th Aug 1910, Kenmare Workhouse
Kate Mara, Templenoe, spinster(? - my note) aged 86 years (1824), servant, Senile decay
Informant John J. O'Sullivan, Kenmare Workhouse
Registered 8th Sept 1910, Registrar J Horgan.
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:-\
Thanks Shanreagh, then the death notice is probably not my Kate (McClure) drats!
Back to the drawing board.
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Are you saying she was known as Kate?
I mentioned this one before
Name CATHERINE MCCLURE
Date of Birth 18 November 1844 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address TRALEE
Father JOHN MCCLURE
Mother ELLEN LEARY
Possibly worth following up through births of other children to parents/marriage/burials
A few posts back Hallmark asked what evidence you had to support the view that the Parish register was wrong. As far as I can see you have not responded to this.
Do you have evidence say in the form of other certificates? What do the children say in their own marriage certificates?
Did Catherine XXXX have any other children?
Where did she live?
Where were her twins brought up?
Where did the twins marry/live/die?
Where is it likely that Catherine died? Ie did she emigrate? Move around Ireland?
Did you say your grandmother/mother could remember Catherine? Does this mean at the time of their birth/childhood she was still alive ...this could help narrow down a death date.
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Are you saying she was known as Kate? This is a common nickname for Catherine
I mentioned this one before
Name CATHERINE MCCLURE
Date of Birth 18 November 1844 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address TRALEE
Father JOHN MCCLURE
Mother ELLEN LEARY
This would make Catherine 15 at time of the birth of the twins, not impossible I know. Will bear this in mind
Possibly worth following up through births of other children to parents/marriage/burials That's the problem, I can find no other records
A few posts back Hallmark asked what evidence you had to support the view that the Parish register was wrong. As far as I can see you have not responded to this. Maybe the priest was A/ being kind. B/ only going by the names given to him. C/ This is definitely the right record
Do you have evidence say in the form of other certificates? What do the children say in their own marriage certificates? Father John Mara, mother Catherine McClure
Did Catherine XXXX have any other children? Don't know
Where did she live? Don't know
Where were her twins brought up? They moved to Glasgow when old enough for work (ladies maids), married and died there
Where did the twins marry/live/die?
Where is it likely that Catherine died? Ie did she emigrate? Move around Ireland? I do not know what happened to Catherine after the birth of the twins. Pretty sure she did not emigrate.
Did you say your grandmother/mother could remember Catherine? Does this mean at the time of their birth/childhood she was still alive ...this could help narrow down a death date. My mother died a long time ago and I can only go on stories she told me about her grandmothers (the twins) I don't think she knew anything about Catherine
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Thanks I will try to find some more records for the McClure Leary marriage.
Name CATHERINE MCCLURE
Date of Birth 18 November 1844 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address TRALEE
Father JOHN MCCLURE
Mother ELLEN LEARY
Have you found any for John Mara that look promising?
Apart from a possible relgious difference, often not insurmountable, if the mother was very young then the lack of parental consent may be a reason for not marrying.
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I still think James McClure is a more likely candidate as father for Catherine. The John mentioned in blue italics below could have been her brother.
James McClure also leased property in the townlands of Cappancush West and Reacashlagh
Also a John Mara rented land in Cappanacush East in 1852 according to the tithe applotment books. I believe this may have been the father of my John Mara
also
marriage in Dublin, in Church of Ireland, of a John McClure, of Kenmare, Land Steward whose father was James, AND Sebilla Ellen Ferguson of Bessboro Parade, Dublin
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I still think James McClure is a more likely candidate as father for Catherine. The John mentioned in blue italics below could have been her brother.
Also a John Mara rented land in Cappanacush East in 1852 according to the tithe applotment books. I believe this may have been the father of my John Mara
This John with a son John could even be yours!
http://www.willcalendars.nationalarchives.ie/reels/cwa/005014899/005014899_00248.pdf
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Thanks hallmark, as far as I'm aware they didn't go to America :)
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I still think James McClure is a more likely candidate as father for Catherine. The John mentioned in blue italics below could have been her brother.
James McClure also leased property in the townlands of Cappancush West and Reacashlagh
Also a John Mara rented land in Cappanacush East in 1852 according to the tithe applotment books. I believe this may have been the father of my John Mara
also
marriage in Dublin, in Church of Ireland, of a John McClure, of Kenmare, Land Steward whose father was James, AND Sebilla Ellen Ferguson of Bessboro Parade, Dublin
Hi It would help the people who are searching immensely if you would let us know why you are thinking that James as the father is more likely than John for instance. Have you ancestor names of James for instance, since Catherine who are named James ie possibly harking back to a family name. Why do you believe that the families came from Cappanacush East?
As you are aware we have one large supposition to get over already and that is that the Church records are incorrect and the names have been switched.
Have you searched on the Sponsors names in the baptism register. The usual idea is that they are connected to the family. How do they fit in?
Any firmer details would be welcome ie the dates/maiden names and married for your grandmother & the marriage and death dates for Sara and Francesca. Do you recall having any great aunts and uncles (ie grandmother's siblings), if so what were their names.
To do a good job and be as helpful/useful as we can we often follow a practice of searching what you might think is old ground, as record sets change, more records are added. It is always best practice to look and check closer down the line to you.
The records in the US. have you any relations at all in the States? If so are you certain of how they got there?
If you have not searched the sponsors then I will do that. If you have are you able put up what you have found out.
Some BDM dates for twins and their children would be good too. We have the twins BDM.
I will also check Griffiths Valuation.
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One has to take into account "family stories" and that the Church records are correct and that Catherine Mara just told the girls their "Father's name was John"!
Your mother died a long time ago and you can only go on stories she told you about her grandmothers.... which may or may not be true!!
If Catherine Mara raised the children in the home of her Father John Mara, it would be very easy to "distort the truth" with her children. When asked for her maiden name tell them O'Meara.
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I'm sorry I don't think I can do this anymore. I only asked a simple question at the start.
All my facts are being questioned and the idea that a church official could make a mistake on a register is not unheard. I have had a couple in other parts of my family tree.
Thank you for your time.
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Are these possible sisters to the James the land steward I found marrying a Sebilla Ferguson? We could investgate these or have you done that?
Marriage of JOSEPH WILDE of KENMARES and MARIA MCCLURE of OLD DROMORE
on 15 April 1857
Parish/Church/Congregation - TEMPLENOE
Area - KERRY (COI)
Marriage of WILLIAM LEWIS of KILARNEY and ARABELLA MCCLURE of OLD DROMORE
on 30 November 1859
Parish/Church/Congregation - TEMPLENOE
Area - KERRY (COI)
I have also been looking at a family of O'Meara who are COI. In fact the father is a Clerk in Holy orders. What struck me particularly is that they have twins as children and one of the twins has Frances as a name. Twins often 'run' in families.
Michael Arthur O'Meara and Elizabeth from Tarbet (probably a 'living') had these children
twins born 5/6/1865
Alice Margaret
Frances Isabel
20/5/1867 Edward Percival
4/11/1870 Frederick Charles O'Meara
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I have looked at Griffiths Valuation 1852/53 on this site
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
Timothy and John Meara leased land in Cappanacush E
In Cappanacush West Land is leased to a McClure and also to a Leary this name has come up in our results
Name CATHERINE MCCLURE
Date of Birth 18 November 1844 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address TRALEE
Father JOHN MCCLURE
Mother ELLEN LEARY
McClure in Reacashlagh, Fybagh,Gortaleen.
Still looking at Islands, Cappanacush W & Domore Old through the Griffiths Places search to find occipiers
Looking for all variations of Mara, Meara etc. :)
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I'm sorry I don't think I can do this anymore. I only asked a simple question at the start.
All my facts are being questioned and the idea that a church official could make a mistake on a register is not unheard. I have had a couple in other parts of my family tree.
Thank you for your time.
Sorry to hear that you are uneasy. Please don't be. I have had church officals make 'mistakes' but when looked at closely they have been names spelt differently to what we may have spell them today.
The church register can be a great source of info bearing mind that in many communities priests, vicars were often one of a few educated people.
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Catherine mcclures & McClure family
Catherine Anne McClure 5/9/1824 to robert and deborah McLure
John McClure 16/7/1822
Father ROBERT MCCLURE
Mother DEBORAH MCCLURE
Now a marriage of a James McClure to Arabella Howard took place COI on 21/5/1826. If these are the parents then Catherine would be 33 at time of births of the twins
here might be a contender for Catherine. In NZ we say O'Mara for O'Meagher. There is a McClure connection.
Name CATHERINE O'MEAGHER
Date of Birth 13 May 1838 (BASED ON OTHER DATE INFORMATION)
Address TRALEE
Father THOMAS O'MEAGHER
Mother MARY MCCLURE
Lots of McClures both COI & RC around a place called Oakpark. Oakpark was hedl in fee by Maurice Sandes who purchased it from the Bateman family.
Some info here
http://landedestates.nuigalway.ie/LandedEstates/jsp/property-show.jsp?id=2040
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Investigating Mary Sullivan sponsor of Sara and Frances at their christening 1859.
Other McClure/Mara connections
Sponsor to Mary MClure dau of John McClure and Bridget Sullivan 25/3/1863 &
Sponsor to Patrick McClure son of Timothy McClure and Ellen Seal/Seel
Sponsor to Patrick McCluir (different sp OP) 16/12/1855 son of John McClure and Bridget Sullivan
Investigating Daniel Kelly sponsor of Sara and Frances at their christening 1859.
Sponsor to Patrick Meara son of Morgan Meara and Ellen Meara 29/3/1829 (Morgan & Ellen had a daughter called Catherine )Over 30 years before so may not be the same one