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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Essex => Topic started by: AuntieMomo on Monday 20 April 20 01:00 BST (UK)
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Hi, I'm looking for an Arthur White, who was born around 1896. His father was Frederick Albert White and he had a 2 older brothers George Henry and Walter, and a much younger sister Ellen. In the 1911 England Census, they lived in Canning Town with the Hall family (widow Jessie Hall and her children and grandchildren). He married my great-grandmother and on the register entry it said Jessie Hall was his mother, but she couldn't have been, and also his father was a widower. So his mother is unknown to me.
So, my great-grandmother was Scottish and lived in Falkirk, which is in Stirlingshire/Central Scotland. She had a child age 16 in 1916, father not around. In 1918 she then had a second illegitimate child, father's name not given. She then got married in 1919 to Arthur White. She seemed to be living with Arthur at the time, along with her father and sister. Arthur was a dock worker, as her father was at that time. It's not known if Arthur was the father of the second child born in 1918. However, Arthur seems to have disappeared, and my great-grandmother went on to live with and have other children with another man, and common knowledge was that this man was her husband.
Arthur was from Canning Town, and I don't understand how he managed to end up in Scotland, unless dock workers were somehow migrant? Or he just got on a ship and ended up there? I don't know if he fathered one or more children with my great-grandmother. A third child was registered under his name, and then under the name of the new 'husband'. I can't find a record of a divorce in Scotland. The marriage with Arthur wasn't a church wedding, it was a declaration in front of witnesses and seemed to be an 'irregular marriage' by Sheriff's warrant, whatever that means.
Four years later, Arthur went on to marry someone called Rose Amelia Bartlett in 1923 in Canning Town. On the family tree that I found, there are no further details of Arthur, and his wife Rose went on to marry someone else. Arthur is being very elusive and I'm having trouble finding any other details of him or his family. Unfortunately, I can't access online the birth record of the third child from Scottish records, to see if he was ever named as the father. My mother knew all about the man that my great-grandmother went on to live with and thought that they were married - they weren't - and had never heard of Arthur White. My grandmother would have known though, because it was on her marriage register entry, that her mother had been married to Arthur White, with absolutely no mention of the second 'husband' (he was not a nice man apparently).
Does anyone have any knowledge of the Whites, particularly Arthur, or dock-workers in the 1910s - 1920s? I would love to find out what happened to him. He might have been in and out the workhouse as a child. Any information or advice would be much appreciated.
Cheers, Momo
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Re the "irregular marriage" - a marriage declared in front of two witnesses, see this info on the Scotlands People website:
https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/article/irregular-marriage-scotland
Also some discussion here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=639319.0
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Hi, I'm looking for an Arthur White, who was born around 1896. His father was Frederick Albert White and he had a 2 older brothers George Henry and Walter, and a much younger sister Ellen. In the 1911 England Census, they lived in Canning Town with the Hall family (widow Jessie Hall and her children and grandchildren). He married my great-grandmother and on the register entry it said Jessie Hall was his mother, but she couldn't have been, and also his father was a widower. So his mother is unknown to me.
The households of the Whites and the Halls in 1911 are separate - they just have the same house number.
Have you attempted to find the births of any of his siblings, and the family in 1901?
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This could be the family in 1901 - leave it to you to check out, ages and orders mixed:
At Plaistow, Plumstead, West Ham
Frederick White 41 Southampton
Ellen White 40 Dartford
Thomas White 19 Dartford
Fredrick White 12 Sancombe ?
George White 10 Plumstead
Arthur White 8 Plumstead
Walter White 5 Plumstead
1911 (always look at the original image)
Fredrick Albert White 55
George Henry White 20
Walter White 17
Arthur White 15
Ellen White 3
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'Arthur went on to marry someone called Rose Amelia Bartlett in 1923 in Canning Town.'
Who is his father at this wedding?
How do you know it is 'your' Arthur?
Added:
transcribed, original not showing
Arthur White
Marital status:Single
Married on 2nd September 1923 at St Matthias, Canning Town, Essex
Father:Frederick Albert White
Spouse:Rose Amelia Bartlett
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The wedding of Arthur and Rose is indexed in Essex marriages on Ancestry but no image.
There is a link to https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk//ancestry.aspx?id=1203391 where a copy can be ordered.
Arthur is shown as single and his father as Frederick Albert.
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Here is your thread re the Scottish events and mentioning Arthur.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829294.0
Have you taken the information re Arthur from a published tree? You mention a tree and also Frederick and Jessie Hall but as pointed out, they are two separate households.
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He married my great-grandmother and on the register entry it said Jessie Hall was his mother, but she couldn't have been, and also his father was a widower. So his mother is unknown to me.
Do you mean the marriage register or 1911 census?
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Full marriage details:
Marriage
married: 02 Sep 1923; St Matthias, Canning Town, West Ham; banns
groom: Arthur White; 24; bach; ships fireman; 28 Peter St
bride: Rose Amelia Bartlett; 21; spin; -; 28 Peter St
grooms father: Frederick Albert White; labourer
brides father: William Charles Bartlett; labourer
witnesses: William Charles Bartlett, Julia? Mary Lewis
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Thanks all for this!
The Whites and Halls were at the same address in the 1911 Census, but were on separate census pages so unknown if they were just all living together or the parents were a couple. However, in the Scottish marriage entry, Arthur does state that Jessie White, maiden surname Hall, is his mother. This is how I found him in the England census amongst all the other Arthur Whites.
I know that he says that he's single for his second marriage. The first marriage was legal, but there's no record of divorce so I guess he must have been a naughty boy and not mentioned his first marriage. I have no knowledge of how they would check these things across the 2 countries in those days.
Chempat - many thanks for tracking down the 1901 census entry, it does seem to be the same family, if a bit mixed up, and gives me the mother. Hopefully this should give me a bit more to go on.
The family tree on Ancestry was the Bartlett family tree, so I've written to the person who created it to ask if there is any family gossip on Arthur. I didn't bring up his first wife!
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Thanks for the explanation.
Was his father named on the marriage in Scotland?
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Thanks for the explanation.
Was his father named on the marriage in Scotland?
Yes, he was: father Frederick White, mother Jessie White M.S. Hall. Arthur's profession was dock-worker and his age was given as 23. He was living at 7 Sword's Wynd in Falkirk.
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Here is 1891 540/116
Plumstead
Frederick A White 33 yrs General Labourer b Southampton
Ellen White 30 yrs B Dartford
Thomas White 10 yrs b Dartford
Frederick A White 1yr b Plumstead
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We aren’t allowed to post 1939 information but that may help you re Jessie and Frederick.
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We aren’t allowed to post 1939 information but that may help you re Jessie and Frederick.
Thanks Heywood. I've been looking for the past hour and not managed to find this. The ages of the children do seem mixed up between censuses.
I didn't know that about the post-1939 information, so not sure what you mean, but I will keep on searching. Appreciate this all very much. I'm rusty on Ancestry, it takes a lot of different search terms to get what you want.
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Sorry, I just meant that Rootschat policy is not to give any information re 1939 register because of copyright.
I just meant it would be useful to check that register.
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Sorry, I just meant that Rootschat policy is not to give any information re 1939 register because of copyright.
I just meant it would be useful to check that register.
Smashing, thank you ;D I will do!
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Did some checking and Jessie Hall's maiden name was Morley. In 1911 the 3 year Ellen White, dau. of Frederick Albert had her birth registered Dec.1907 West Ham, mmn Morley!!
Jessie would have been too old to be the mother of Ellen so who was?
Annette
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Did some checking and Jessie Hall's maiden name was Morley. In 1911 the 3 year Ellen White, dau. of Frederick Albert had her birth registered Dec.1907 West Ham, mmn Morley!!
Jessie would have been too old to be the mother of Ellen so who was?
Annette
My initial assumption was the Frederick and Jessie, both widowed, got together with all of their kids but there's no evidence other than Arthur put Jessie as his mum on his first marriage document, although they were all living at the same address.
My other assumption was that Ellen was a late child and possibly her mother (Ellen, Frederick's wife) died in childbirth. There's no evidence for this, unless I can find a record of Ellen the mother's death. I don't know how to do that with English records. Possibly Ellen was a grandchild but this isn't stated. Jessie Hall had grandchildren living with her, and because Ellen wasn't stated as being a grandchild.
Fantastic that you've discovered this other name Morley. I will try and do some digging.
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Did some checking and Jessie Hall's maiden name was Morley. In 1911 the 3 year Ellen White, dau. of Frederick Albert had her birth registered Dec.1907 West Ham, mmn Morley!!
Jessie would have been too old to be the mother of Ellen so who was?
Annette
Just to say that, on checking against Jessie date of birth (29 Sep 1859), she would have been 48 in 1907, so it is possible that she could have been Ellen's mother. If she was, I hope it was a happy surprise and after checking the 1939 Register, there was an Ellen (different surname) still living with Frederick White and Jessie Hall.
I can't find much on Arthur White, my original target and possible distant relative. There was an Arthur White living with a Florence White and Arthur J White in 1939 and older Arthur worked on the docks as a corn porter. My Arthur always seemed to be a dock worker of some kind, or a ship's fireman. But aside from that, I'm having difficulty locating him, or finding out if this is 'my' Arthur for sure.
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Just to say that often names in 1939 are a record of a future surname acquired through marriage. You should be able to see, if it had been written later.
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Just to say that often names in 1939 are a record of a future surname acquired through marriage. You should be able to see, if it had been written later.
Oh, thanks for that! I didn't know. :D It was written in later.
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I can see births for Frederick Albert White mmn Batt Dartford, 1889, George Henry White mmn Bat, 1892, Woolwich and Walter Henry White mmn Bat, Woolwich 1895.
Do not know if these are correct children, just trying to find some common surnames etc.
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I can see births for Frederick Albert White mmn Batt Dartford, 1889, George Henry White mmn Bat, 1892, Woolwich and Walter Henry White mmn Bat, Woolwich 1895.
Do not know if these are correct children, just trying to find some common surnames etc.
They seem correct, Chempat, but I'm not getting any joy with mum Ellen or Arthur ???
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Looking at 1861 - 1881 censuses there is this lady:
Ellen Batt b Dartford 1856/7
Parents William and Mary A.
In 1881 866/13/19 there is a child John Batt 2 yrs with her. GRO shows birth of Alfred John Sharp Batt with no mother’s name. :-\
There is a Thomas William b 1881 with no mmn.
There is a death for Ellen White born abt 1857 in West Ham 1904 which would seem to fit.