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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Bedfordshire => England => Bedfordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: TadlowNewell on Tuesday 02 June 20 11:32 BST (UK)

Title: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Tuesday 02 June 20 11:32 BST (UK)
There are three generations of 'Simeon Brim' in Wrestlingworth:
 
   . Sim1 (1816-1902) married 1840 to Elizabeth Yarrow, publican of "Queen Victoria"
   . Sim2 (1851-1931) married 1872 to Ann Bland
   . Sim3 (1887 - ??) married, perhaps, to one Margaret E Freeman,
                              and with a son curiously named "Allan Simeon Frank Brim"

These folk appear on many Ancestry 'Public Trees' but none have any information about "Sim3"s marriage or death. I only found the info about his wife and child from one of these trees, sadly unsourced.("RefinedWallTree" by pete_wall1)

I have a photo of "Sim3", probably taken when he was in his late teens, by a Bedford Photographer. He also appears in the 1891 and 1901 censuses at Wrestlingworth with his parents. For the 1911 Census of Wrestlingworth it seems there is only a record of the summary index (names of household heads), at least on Ancestry, and in that there is just one mention of a 'Simeon Brim' who could be Sim2 or Sim3.

I cannot find any record of "Sim3"s marriage or death either in Ancestry, or FreeBMD, or GRO indexes. He does not seem to appear in the 1939 Register, nor in any Electoral Registers indexed by Ancestry...

I know there are many families called 'Brin' rather than 'Brim' in the area, but Sim3 does not seem to be hiding behind a mis-spelling. I've tried many alternatives!

So, my questions:

1. Does anyone know why the full 1911 census for Wrestlingworth is not available on Ancestry, only the Summary Index? Is it completely lost or just an accidental omission? Can I find it somewhere else...?

2. Can anyone find any information on Sim3 after 1901 in sources I have not searched? Maybe he emigrated...

Maybe I just need to wait until the 1922 census becomes available next year and see if he appears there...

Thanks in advance
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: BumbleB on Tuesday 02 June 20 11:39 BST (UK)
FindMyPast have the Brim family in 1911 - Simeon, Ann and Frank.

Transcript from Family Search:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7V1-N83
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Tuesday 02 June 20 11:48 BST (UK)
Many thanks. So it seems 1911 Wrestlingworth census is just missing from Ancestry, not everywhere. Frustratingly this Simeon is Sim2. It at least tells me his son, Sim3, had probably left home before 1911. He would have been 24 at that date, so it is not surprising.
 
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: cath151 on Tuesday 02 June 20 12:11 BST (UK)
Hi
Funeral articles of Ann (1926) and Simeon aged 79  (1931) Brim mention various members of the family including son Simeon Brim whose address in 1931 is Queensbury, York.
Another so Frank is mentioned and seems to have a wife but no Mrs. S Brim mentioned.

Cathy
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Tuesday 02 June 20 12:19 BST (UK)
Hi Cath,

Thanks so much. I have just searched using the info you provide with no joy. Would you be able to give me a source or link...? I'd love to see what the 'funeral articles' you mention contain. Tantalising!
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 02 June 20 12:50 BST (UK)
You will need to remove your email address, rootschat does not like us posting them.

I can't see a birth registration for a Simeon with MMN Bland.  Could he actually be registered under another first name or have I missed it  :-\

BRIM, EMMA       mmn BLAND 
1883  Sept Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 338

BRIM, EGDAR       mmn BLAND 
1886  Dec Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 343

BRIM, WILFRED       mmn BLAND 
1890  Sept Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 335
(Wilfred appears as Alfred on census)
 
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 02 June 20 12:58 BST (UK)
Edgar marries Gladys Broadbent at Haley Hill, Halifax - father Simeon 3rd April 1929.  He was widowed.  First marriage to Helen Johnson in 1912.

His death
June qtr 1960 
BRIM    Edgar   
age 73   
Halifax    2b   557
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Tuesday 02 June 20 12:59 BST (UK)
email removed Ok. Apologies
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 02 June 20 13:04 BST (UK)
Edgar was in the police - records plus electoral register information on Ancestry
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: cath151 on Tuesday 02 June 20 13:09 BST (UK)
Hi Colin,
Have sent an email.
Cathy :)
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: janan on Tuesday 02 June 20 13:18 BST (UK)
I came to same conclusion, Cathy
Edgar Brim  is on the electoral roll for Queensbury in 1931 which would seem to clinch it, although of course his birth certificate would prove it :)
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 02 June 20 13:37 BST (UK)
1. Does anyone know why the full 1911 census for Wrestlingworth is not available on Ancestry, only the Summary Index? Is it completely lost or just an accidental omission? Can I find it somewhere else...?

It is there, the surname transcribed as BRIN when it is clearly BRIM.

Class: RG14; Piece: 8892; Schedule Number: 81

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 02 June 20 14:27 BST (UK)
I came to same conclusion, Cathy
Edgar Brim and is on the electoral roll for Queensbury in 1931 which would seem to clinch it, although of course his birth certificate would prove it :)

It would be nice to know if OP thinks I am on the right track with Edgar  :-\.  The trouble with sending PM's is that others trying to help have no idea what is going on.

Rosie
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 02 June 20 14:29 BST (UK)
BRINN, ALFRED     (BLANN)     
GRO Reference: 1875  D Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 338
(died Dec qtr 1875)

BRIM, ROSA  ELIZABETH      (BLANN)     
GRO Reference: 1877  M Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 372

BRIM, ERNEST     (BLAND)     
GRO Reference: 1880  M Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 353
(died march qtr 1880)

BRIM, ALFRED     (BLAND)     
GRO Reference: 1881  D Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 345
(died Dec qtr 1881)

BRIM, EMMA     (BLAND)     
GRO Reference: 1883  S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 338

BRIM, EGDAR     (BLAND)     
GRO Reference: 1886  D Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 343

BRIM, WILFRED     (BLAND)     
GRO Reference: 1890  S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 335
(possibly died Dec qtr 1891 as Alfred William BRIM)

BRIM, LILLA     (BLAND)     
GRO Reference: 1889  S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 347
(died Sep qtr 1889)

BRIM, FRANK     (BLAND)     
GRO Reference: 1894  J Quarter in BIGGLESWADE  Volume 03B  Page 344 

The 1911 census has number of children still living and number who have died the other way around.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: Dundee on Tuesday 02 June 20 14:35 BST (UK)
Oops, forgot David - no birth registration that I can see but baptised Dec 1873.

Debra  :)
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: janan on Tuesday 02 June 20 14:36 BST (UK)
I came to same conclusion, Cathy
Edgar Brim  is on the electoral roll for Queensbury in 1931 which would seem to clinch it, although of course his birth certificate would prove it :)

It would be nice to know if OP thinks I am on the right track with Edgar  :-\.  The trouble with sending PM's is that others trying to help have no idea what is going on.


Rosie

Sorry for getting your name wrong Rosie
Yes, it would be nice to know what TadlowNewell thinks.

Jan
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 02 June 20 15:34 BST (UK)
janan,  I thought you were talking about Cathy's newspaper report when you mentioned her in your response  ;D

Debra, I did wonder if David had been born before the marriage and baptised when it was convenient


Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: cath151 on Tuesday 02 June 20 16:44 BST (UK)
The email was regarding the newspaper reports that poster requested.
Cathy
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: janan on Tuesday 02 June 20 17:38 BST (UK)
Thanks Cathy.  I'm sure TadlowNewell will be back to let us know what he thinks about Edgar being Simeon.

Jan
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Tuesday 02 June 20 18:42 BST (UK)
Thanks for clarifying that Cathy.  As I had no idea what else the article said I wondered if I had been wasting my time posting about Edgar.

Rosie
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Tuesday 02 June 20 19:55 BST (UK)
Thanks all. I just need some time to process the new info I have received from you all today and update my database. Then I'll respond fully with a summary. My time is often not my own so please be patient!!
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Wednesday 03 June 20 16:37 BST (UK)
Dear all,

I have not yet unravelled all the Alfred/Wilfred/Edgar Brims you have unearthed, but will, I hope, sort them out shortly and let you know. I currently believe Simeon (Sim3) and Edgar are brothers, not alternative names for the same person, and they both seem to be up in Yorkshire, sharing a house. However I could be wrong.

The only information Cathy sent me 'privately' yesterday was, as she explained, three newspaper cuttings from the British newspaper Archive. I have not worked out how to post attachments or insert images in Rootschat using this old-fashioned HTML editor, and I suspect Cathy hasn't either, so she/I revert to alternative means of communication.

I propose posting full details of each cutting, one by one 'for posterity' as they provide useful information not easily available elsewhere.

Here's the complete transcription of the first. followed by my explanation/understanding of who the folk mentioned are.

_________________________________
Biggleswade Chronicle and Beds Gazette, Friday 24 Sep 1926

Wrestlingworth.

Death of Mrs Brim.

We regret to record the death of Mrs Ann Brim, wife of Mr Simeon Brim, on Friday, Sept 17th. The funeral took place on Tuesday [21 Sep], the service, in the absence of the rector (Rev. E. D. F. Mann), being taken by the Rev. Price of Guilden Morden. The coffin was covered with beautiful flowers. The following were the mourners:

Mr Simeon Brim (husband)
Messrs Simeon and Frank Brim (sons)
Mrs A Humberstone (daughter)
Messrs J. and D. Bland (brothers)
Mrs W. Holbon (sister)
Mr Allen Freeman (grandson)
Miss M Humberstone (granddaughter)
Mr A Humberstone and Mr B Newell (sons-in-law)
Mrs F. Brim (daughter-in-law)
Mrs J Bland (sister-in-law)
Mrs Franklin (niece)
Mrs Waldock (friend)
_________________________________________-


Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Wednesday 03 June 20 17:04 BST (UK)
Thank you for the update

When Allan Simeon Frank Brim Freeman married Hilda Bullard he named his father as Edgar Brim - Police Constable though this was struck through - presumably because he was illegitimate.
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Wednesday 03 June 20 17:38 BST (UK)
Here's the transcript of the second press cutting sent to me by Cathy. It records the death in 1931 of Simeon Brim. The cast list is much the same as at his wife Ann's funeral a few years earlier in 1926.
---------------
Biggleswade Chronicle and Bedfordshire Gazette, Friday June 5th 1931

WRESTLINGWORTH

Death of Mr. Simeon Brim.

We regret to record the death, at the age of 79 years, of Mr Simeon Brim, of Hatley Road, Wrestlingworth, which occurred on May 22nd. The funeral took place on May 26th at Wrestlingworth, the Rev E. D. F. Mann officiating. The mourners were

Mr David Brim, East Ardley, Yorks (son)
Mrs R Humberstone (Daughter)
Mr Simeon Brim, Queensbury, Yorks (son)
Mr Frank Brim (son)
Mr Edward Newell and Miss Bessie Newell, Madingley, Cambs. (Grandchildren)
Mr Allen Freeman, Barley, Cambs (grandson)
Miss M Humberstone (granddaughter)
Mrs Holben (sister-in-law)
Mrs A. E. Chessum, Dunton (friend)
Mrs F Brim was unable to attend through illness

The coffin was of polished elm. Mr. Woodman of Potton was the undertaker.
---------------------------------------
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 04 June 20 08:39 BST (UK)
As it would appear from Allan S F B Freemans marriage his father was Edgar Brim

Mexborough & Swinton Times 04 December 1936
Retirement PC Edgar Brim, Brunswick Street, Thurnscoe retired from force after 25 years. Native of Bedfordshire. Spent most of service in and around Halifax, been in Thurnscoe 4 years. Of a quiet & reserved disposition he took little part in public life of Thurnscoe. He has gone with his wife to live at Sprotburgh Park.
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Thursday 04 June 20 09:56 BST (UK)
Here's the transcript of the third press cutting Cathy found. It is from 1953 and records the marriage of Simeon Peter Brim, son of Frank. i.e. he becomes 'Sim4' in my naming convention.

There is less information of genealogic interest here, but it makes fascination reading and is so 'of its time': "The younger maids wore...nylon headdresses" and 'the honeymoon is being spent in Clacton'.

----------------------------------------
Biggleswade Chronicle and Bedfordshire Gazette, Friday 4th Sep 1953

Mr. S. P. Brim and Miss J. Gray

At Biggleswade Old Meeting Baptist Church on August 27. Mr. Simeon Peter Brim, younger son of Mr. and Mrs. Frank Brim of 1 Hatley Road, Wrestlingworth was married to Miss Joan Gray, elder daughter of Mr. and Mrs. Albert Gray of Fairfield Road, Biggleswade.

The Rev. Hugh Fraser of Russell Park Baptist Church, Bedford officiated, and Mrs H. T. Salt was organist for the hymns "The Lord's my shepherd" and "O perfect love".

Given away by her father, the bride wore a dress of white-figured taffeta with full length embroidered veil and headdress of orange blossom and carried a shower bouquet of pink roses, carnations and fern. She wore a double string of pearls, the gift of the bridegroom.

Bridesmaids were the Misses Brenda and Sheila Gray (bride's sisters) and Beryl Slade and Jennifer Brim (nieces of the bridegroom). The two elder maids wore dresses of ice-blue taffeta with net overskirts, matching blue half-hats, flowered to match their bouquets of lemon carnations. The two younger maids wore lemon taffeta dresses with nylon matching headdresses and carried lemon and pink carnations.

Mr Alec Brim (bridegroom's brother) was best man and a reception was held at Park's Cafe. The honeymoon is being spent at Clacton, the bride travelling in a pale blue costume with white accessories. Mr and Mrs Brim will live at 1 Hatley Road, Wrestlingworth.

-----------------------------------
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Thursday 04 June 20 11:14 BST (UK)
Ancestry has a record (image) of Edgar Brim joining the West Yorks police force on 2 oct 1911. Age 25 years, from Wrestlingworth. His previous occupation was as a Platelayer with South-Eastern Railway Company at Charlton Kent.
Ancestry.com. West Yorkshire, England, Police Records, 1833-1914
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: janan on Thursday 04 June 20 13:16 BST (UK)
Hi

Thanks for your updates.

Re your idea that Edgar and Simeon are brothers sharing the house in Queensbury Yorks, the 1931 electoral roll shows only Edgar and his wife Gladys in Queensbury, no Simeon.

Jan
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Thursday 04 June 20 14:12 BST (UK)
Hello Jan,

I have this morning been putting together a 'definitive' (ha!) list of all the information I have on Simeon and Ann's children and I have to say that the evidence that Simeon and Edgar are one and the same person is beginning to become convincing. I have even found a Public Tree on Ancestry containing a person named "?Simeon/Edgar? Brim" so you are not the first to raise the possibility. See https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/81387267/person/44462955297/facts (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/81387267/person/44462955297/facts). I plan to message the owner and ask her if she has any info. I sense there is an interesting story here ... if we can get to the bottom of it. I'll keep digging.
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 04 June 20 14:34 BST (UK)
Have you missed this post  :-\

Thank you for the update

When Allan Simeon Frank Brim Freeman married Hilda Bullard he named his father as Edgar Brim - Police Constable though this was struck through - presumably because he was illegitimate.
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Thursday 04 June 20 16:12 BST (UK)
Debra, I did wonder if David had been born before the marriage and baptised when it was convenient

The 1939 Register gives David William Brim's birth date as 23 Oct 1873, a year after Simeon and Ann's marriage. That isn't 100% proof, but it suggests he was not illegitimate, though then there remains the issue why his Birth certificate is not found...
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 04 June 20 17:42 BST (UK)
Unfortunately dates of birth and other information on both census and the 1939 register are not reliable. 

On reply 13 Debra has listed the birth registration details of 9 children of Simeon & Ann which agrees in total with the 1911 census.  However as Debra mentioned the living/died figures were the wrong way round.  Also Debras list did not include a birth for David William which would have increased the total of children to 10.

Were any of their children baptised  :-\

 
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Thursday 04 June 20 18:10 BST (UK)
Can someone who has access to Wrestlingworth registers do a lookup for us for both Edgar and Simeon Brim.

We know from GRO Edgar was born Q4 1886 but I have no baptism details
In 1901 census Simeon was aged 4 which would give a birth in 1887 but I have no baptism details and Debra does not list 'Simeon' in her list from GRO birth records.

The fact we have 10 children but their mother Ann records only nine (5 alive, 4 dead) on the 1911 census is more evidence that Simeon and Edgar are probably the same person... 

Once I have any new Baptism/Birth data I shall post all the details i have of all 9/10 children.
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: rosie99 on Thursday 04 June 20 18:26 BST (UK)
You have said that Simeon was the father of Allan S F B Freeman, what evidence do you have for that.
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Thursday 04 June 20 19:54 BST (UK)
I am aware that several sources show that Edgar is father of S F B Freeman including posts in this thread. Once I have hopefully worked out whether Simeon and Edgar are the same person or not then I shall adjust/correct. Note my posts in this thread showing Simeon as his father do now include a caveat "or Edgar".
 I also need to try to investigate/clarify who his mother is and her relationship with Simeon/Edgar. It is likely to be week d before I  can do much more on this. It has turned out to be a lot bigger issue that I expected!
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: janan on Friday 05 June 20 14:24 BST (UK)


We know from GRO Edgar was born Q4 1886 but I have no baptism details
In 1901 census Simeon was aged 4 which would give a birth in 1887 but I have no baptism details and Debra does not list 'Simeon' in her list from GRO birth records.

The fact we have 10 children but their mother Ann records only nine (5 alive, 4 dead) on the 1911 census is more evidence that Simeon and Edgar are probably the same person... 


Hi

The 1901 census was taken on 31 March 1901 so a child born Q4 of 1886 would still be 4yrs old. As Rosie said earlier there is no birth registration showing for a Simeon Brim with mother's maiden name Bland

Jan
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Sunday 07 June 20 17:22 BST (UK)
Dear Rootschatters

I have now pulled together all available information I can find on Simeon and Edgar Brim - listed below - and I think that on balance we can conclude they are one and the same person. Maybe he was baptised Edgar but during his childhood was called Sim to please his grandfather 'Sim2' or some such. Note we know of Sim3 only from two Census records - 1901 when he was aged 4 and 1911 when he was 14. In neither of these censuses is 'Edgar' mentioned. i.e. the two records fit together nicely in this respect. 

This merging also means Ann Brim now has nine children, as she reported in the 1911 census, not ten.

There are just two pieces of information which still worry me:

1. My uncle Edward, son of Emma Charlotte Brim, who was born 1909, identified (when he was aged 90) a photo I have as being of Simeon "He was called Sim'. I guess he only knew 'Sim' during his early childhood.   

2. The press cutting of Sim2s burial in 1931 mentions Simeon living at Ardley (sic) Yorkshire while the 1931 Electoral register has 'Edgar' living at Elland. Elland and East Ardsley are about 8 miles apart, south-west of Bradford. Indeed Edgar was living at 6 New Park Road, Elland per all Electoral Registers from 1915 to 1932, never at East Ardsley. Maybe this use of 'Simeon'  at the funeral is again just to 'please' the late Sim2....

Anyway, I have merged the two entries in my database. My next step is to try to identify where
"Allan Simeon Frank Brim Freeman" born 1908 fits in. Currently it seems he he is son of Simeon/Edgar and of one Ann Freeman but I intend to explore a bit more. 

"Simeon" (known as 'Sim')
     Born      No GRO Regn found
     Bapt.     not found
     1891 Cen. In Wrestlingworth, enum. with parents, aged 4
     1901 Cen. In Charles Sq, Wrestlingworth enum. with parents, aged 14
     1911 Cen. Not found. Not enum with parents.
     Mar. Reg. None found
     Death Reg None Found
     1931      "Simeon Brim of Queensbury, Yorks" in newspaper burial report of Simeon Brim ("Sim2")

"Edgar"
     Born      Q4 1886  GRO Ref: 1886 D Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Vol 03B Page 343
     Bapt.     Not found
     1891 Cen. Not found. Not enum. with parents
     1901 Cen  Not found. Not enum. with parents
     1911 Cen. Aged 24. Platelayer with South-Eastern Rly Co.,
               Boarding with Wilf and Rose Newell, Charlton, Kent (brother-in-law of Emma Charlotte)
     Occ.      2 Oct 1911  Joined West Yorks Police age "25 2/12" i.e. born Aug 1886

     Mar. #1   7 Dec 1912 to Helen Marion Johnson, Brighouse Halifax, Yorkshire (Cert. image avail)
                          both resident at 21 Elland Rd, Brighouse.
                          per 1911 census Helen, born Windsor, was servant in Kensington, with sister.
                          Helen died aged 32 Q2 1923 Keighly Reg. District, Yorkshire.

     1923 Elec. Reg. Living at 6 New Park Rd Elland, West Yorks.
     Mar. #2   3 Apr 1929 to Gladys Broadbent at Hayley Mill, Halifax, Yorkshire.
     1931 Elec. Reg  Living at 6 New Park Rd, Elland, West Yorks.
     1934 Elec. Reg. Living at Wentworth, West Yorkshire
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Monday 08 June 20 16:56 BST (UK)
Thank you for the update

When Allan Simeon Frank Brim Freeman married Hilda Bullard he named his father as Edgar Brim - Police Constable though this was struck through - presumably because he was illegitimate.

Dear Rosie,
I wonder if you could give me a source for this info. I can find references to the marriage in Indexes, but not the actual certificate image, which I would like very much to see.

Colin
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: janan on Monday 08 June 20 18:13 BST (UK)
The certificate is on Find My Past. It is mis-indexed as 1881 and gives Allan's dob as 1857, goodness knows why!

Re your earlier comment that Simeon is said to be living in Ardley in the newspaper article about his dad's funeral. It is actually says Queensbury, which you do note yourself further down. Elland is in South Queensbury ward.

Jan
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Monday 08 June 20 20:25 BST (UK)
The certificate is on Find My Past. It is mis-indexed as 1881 and gives Allan's dob as 1857, goodness knows why!

Re your earlier comment that Simeon is said to be living in Ardley in the newspaper article about his dad's funeral. It is actually says Queensbury, which you do note yourself further down. Elland is in South Queensbury ward.

Jan

Thanks for this. I can see a birth certificate on FindMyPast, at first link below, which would be interesting - is father recorded and, if so, who, but frustratingly I don't have a subscription. I can also see two marriage records for Hilda M EW Bullard at the second link. I'll keep looking.

Colin

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?firstname=allan&firstname_variants=true&lastname=freeman&keywordsplace=wrestlingworth%2c%20bedfordshire%2c%20england&keywordsplace_proximity=5&yearofbirth=1908&yearofbirth_offset=2&sourcecountry=great%20britain&sid=999 (https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?firstname=allan&firstname_variants=true&lastname=freeman&keywordsplace=wrestlingworth%2c%20bedfordshire%2c%20england&keywordsplace_proximity=5&yearofbirth=1908&yearofbirth_offset=2&sourcecountry=great%20britain&sid=999)

https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?firstname=hilda&firstname_variants=true&lastname=bullard&keywordsplace=therfield%2c%20hertfordshire%2c%20england&keywordsplace_proximity=5&yearofbirth=1908&yearofbirth_offset=2&sourcecountry=great%20britain&sid=999 (https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?firstname=hilda&firstname_variants=true&lastname=bullard&keywordsplace=therfield%2c%20hertfordshire%2c%20england&keywordsplace_proximity=5&yearofbirth=1908&yearofbirth_offset=2&sourcecountry=great%20britain&sid=999)
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: TadlowNewell on Monday 08 June 20 20:37 BST (UK)
Here, for posterity, is a summary of the info I have collated re the nine children of Simeon and Ann.

Colin

1. David William
     Born      23 Oct 1873 per 1939 register but no GRO birth regn found (by Debra)
     Bapt.     21 Dec 1873 Wrestlingworth
     1881 Cen. Wrestlingworth, with parents, Aged 7, Scholar
     1891 Cen. Wrestlingworth, with parents, Aged 17
     1901 Cen. Blast Furnace Labourer, East Ardsley Yorkshire.
     1911 Cen. Blast Furnace Labourer Pig Iron, East Ardsley Yorkshire.
     Mar.      19 Feb 1898 to Priscilla Miller (b 1874 - 1936) at Lofthouse, York
     Children  Sam Oxley Miller (1895-) Mildred may (~1899-), Evelyn A. (1900-), Lilian (~1903)
     1931      In burial notice of Simeon (sim2) ...of Ardley, Yorks
     1939 reg. Retired Blast Furnaceman, Morley, West Riding, Yorkshire.
     Died      Q4 1952 Spen Valley, West Riding, Yorks

2. Alfred
     Born      Sep 1875 GRO Ref: 1875 D Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Vol 03B Page 338 (mmn BLANN)
     Bapt.     26 Sep 1875 Wrestlingworth
     Died      a few days later in Oct 1875

3. Rose Elizabeth
     Born      Q1 1877 GRO Ref: 1877 M Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Vol 03B Page 372 (forename Rosa; mmn BLANN)
     Bapt.     8 Apr 1877, Wrestlingworth
     1881 Cen. Wrestlingworth, with parents, aged 7, Scholar
     1891 Cen. Wrestlingworth, with parents, aged 14
     Mar.      Q1 1898 to Albert Edward Humberstone (1873-1954) 1911 Census 'Thatcher'
     Children: Hilda (~1898), Elsie M. (~1899), Marjorie Evelyn (1908)
     Died      Q2 1948, Biggleswade Reg'n District

4. Ernest
     Born      Q1 1880 Wrestlingworth
     Died      Q1 1880 Wrestlingworth

5. Emma Charlotte
     Born      11 Jul 1883 Wrestlingworth GRO Ref: 1883 S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Vol 03B  Page 338
     Bapt.     23 Sep 1883
     1891 Cen. Wrestlingworth, with parents, aged 7
     1901 Cen. Charles Sq, Wrestlingworth with parents, aged 17
     Mar.      29 Apr 1909 Wrestlingworth to Albert Edward Newell (1883-1974)
     Children: Edward (1910-2007), Bill (1914-1984), Bessie (1915-1982)
     Died      11 Nov 1918 (Armistice Day) of Spanish flu in Barrington, Cambs
     Buried    Barrington Churchyard.

6. Simeon Edgar
     Born      Q4 1886  GRO Ref: 1886 D Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Vol 03B Page 343. Named 'Edgar'
     Bapt.     Not found
     1891 Cen. In Wrestlingworth, enum. with parents, aged 4, as 'Simeon'
     1901 Cen. In Charles Sq, Wrestlingworth enum. with parents, aged 14 as 'Simeon'
     1911 Cen. Aged 24. Platelayer with South-Eastern Rly Co. as 'Edgar',
               Boarding with Wilf and Rose Newell, Charlton, Kent (brother-in-law of Emma Charlotte)
     Occ.      2 Oct 1911  Joined West Yorks Police age "25 2/12" i.e. born Aug 1886

     Mar. #1   7 Dec 1912 to Helen Marion Johnson, Brighouse Halifax, Yorkshire (Cert. image avail)
                          both resident at 21 Elland Rd, Brighouse.
                          per 1911 census Helen, born Windsor, was servant in Kensington, with sister.
                          Helen died aged 32 Q2 1923 Keighly Reg District, Yorkshire.

     1923 Elec. Reg. Living at 6 New Park Rd Elland, West Yorks.
     Mar. #2   3 Apr 1929 to Gladys Broadbent at Hayley Mill, Halifax, Yorkshire.
     1931 Elec. Reg  6 New Park Rd, Elland, West Yorks.
     1931      "Simeon Brim of Queensbury, Yorks" in newspaper burial report of Simeon Brim ("Sim2")
     1934 Elec. Reg. Living at Wentworth, West Yorkshire

     1936      Cutting from Mexborough & Swinton Times 04 December 1936
               Retirement PC Edgar Brim, Brunswick Street, Thurnscoe retired from force
               after 25 years. Native of Bedfordshire. Spent most of service in and
               around Halifax, been in Thurnscoe 4 years. Of a quiet & reserved disposition
               he took little part in public life of Thurnscoe. He has gone with his wife to
               live at Sprotburgh Park.

     1939 Reg. 33 Park Rd, Doncaster. Retired Police Constable (+ Gladys Unpaid Dom duties)
     1946 Reg  33 Park Dr. Don Valley
     Died      6 Jun 1960 at 28 Higgin La, Slouthowram, Halifax, West Riding, Yorkshire
               per Probate record; Effects to widow Gladys
               Gladys died 26 Sep 1964 in nursing home at Ilkley Yorks (per probate)

7. Lilla
      Born:    Q3 1889  GRO Ref: 1889 S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Vol 03B Page 347
      Died:    Q3 1889  GRO Ref: 1889 S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Vol 03B Page 190

8. Alfred William
     Born      Q3 1890  GRO Ref: 1890 S Quarter in BIGGLESWADE Vol 03B Page 335 (forename Wilfred)
     Bapt.     1890
     Died      Q4 1891

9. Frank A.
     Bapt.      6 Apr 1894, Wrestlingworth 
     1901 Cen. Charles Sq Wrestlingworth, aged 6
     1911 Cen. Charles Sq Wrestlingworth, Single, Farm lab.
     1939 Reg. 1 Hat
     Mar.      Q1 1919 to Florence Amy Fowler of Hatfield (1897-1965)
     Children: Alec (1920-1984) and Simeon Peter (1931-2016)
Title: Re: Simeon Brim (b1887) of Wrestlingworth. Marriage or death?
Post by: janan on Tuesday 09 June 20 12:21 BST (UK)
The marriage certificate is here
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/results?firstname=allan%20simeon%20frank%20brim&firstname_variants=true&lastname=freeman&keywordsplace=therfield%2c%20hertfordshire%2c%20england&keywordsplace_proximity=5&sourcecountry=great%20britain&sid=999

3rd one down, as I said it is mis-indexed as occurring in 1881 and gives Allan's year of birth as 1857, but the certificate is correct for the 1932 marriage. You can buy credits to view records so don't have to have a subscription.
If you want to see his birth certificate you would need to order from the GRO as it is only the index that is shown on Findmypast.

Jan :)