RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Leisa on Sunday 05 July 20 14:15 BST (UK)
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Good evening,
I have been researching my family history for over ten years now. Using Trove, the Church of LDS, Qld State Archives, Qld State Library, Qld and NSW BDM, Ancestry, visiting the location my ancestors settled at, purchasing birth, death certificates, land titles, wills and books about the Fanny Kirchner that came to Australia in 1858 which the ship's manifest is missing the complete passenger list, spending time at the local museums and visting cemetery from records that my dad and I did so with the help of local councils and with the help that I am very grateful for on Root's chat, there is just something that my dad who is the last line in his family in critically ill health at 87 years old that we just can't piece together. That is how our ancestors came from Sydney, which is evident on Trove that the German settlers were kept in hostels in 1858 from Henry Hamburger who on Trove asked for them to be hired. From my research there are years missing when they arrived in Sydney to when I can see my great, great, grandfather on the electoral roll in 1870. I have also researched steam shipping records on Trove as well. My great great grandfather was Fredolin Schmeider. His wife was Elizabetha. My great grandfather Carl Frederick Schmeider was born on the Fanny Kirchner. Trove records confirm this as they record one birth being recorded on the ship. The Fanny Kirchner from trove confirms my father's story that was passed down that the ship was quarantined in the harbour due to small pox. The Trove records also confirm this. I haven't been able to find my great grandfather's birth certificate when he was born on the ship March 1858. I have been told that because the ship was German, that any births were recorded in Germany. Sadly, due to the wars, many records have been destroyed. If there is anyone out there that can help me and my dad, who has only come home from hospital due to aspiration pnemonia discover any answers it would be very much appreciated. Dad is the last in his line of children to his mother and father. This means so much to us. Any response or help will make our hearts sing. Thank you, Leisa and her dad, Len. xxx
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Can't help you but I wish your dad well, happy hunting
Louisa Maud
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Good Morning, :)
Did the couple have children born in the colonies? ... younger siblings for Carl? If so, have you checked those birth certs for details about Carl? In Qld, Vic and NSW you can often find that the youngest born's birth cert lists the name and then ages of each of the then living older siblings.
ADD
I have phoned an ancient living rellie, a retired senior officer from NSW bdm, to check re 1858 births, but I feel sure that while it was compulsory to register births, that the two obvious hassles were 1) did the couple know that (could they read English) and b) did they know that births en route to NSW could be registered up to 18 months after arrival?
Have you sought the ship's
Logbook for mention of the birth ... it may include passenger names ... So too the ships surgeons diary.
JM.
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Hi All,
Here are a couple of other threads from Leisa about the SCHMEIDERs
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774267.msg6275569#msg6275569
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=637009.0
Agreeing with JM here that I have never heard that births on board are registered in the native country of the parents.
The information from JM's relatives will be of great interest as they are an endless fount of knowledge in such matters. ;D
Sue
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From my research there are years missing when they arrived in Sydney to when I can see my great, great, grandfather on the electoral roll in 1870.
I don't know what you mean by that. There are plenty of references on Trove through the 1860's and a number of children born in Queensland.
To find them travelling to Queensland you would need to go to Queensland archives and see what records they have for coastal vessels arriving. It would most likely be a government steamer. If they arrived in March 1858 and their son was born in Queensland on 8 May 1859 then at least it isn't a huge amount of time that you would need to search.
Debra :)
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Hi Leisa
Have you looked for a baptism record in NSW?
Essie
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Hi,
I am posting here to help our OP locate this thread today.
I hope her notifications are turned on and she receives the usual notification from RChat about a new post on her thread.
JM
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Can't help you but I wish your dad well, happy hunting
Louisa Maud
Thank you Louisa x
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Hi,
I am posting here to help our OP locate this thread today.
I hope her notifications are turned on and she receives the usual notification from RChat about a new post on her thread.
JM
Thank you JM x
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Hi Leisa
Have you looked for a baptism record in NSW?
Essie
Hello Essie,
Yes I have tried that as well. He was born on the ship in port in 1858 the same time they arrived in Australia.
Thank you,
Leisa
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Good Morning, :)
Did the couple have children born in the colonies? ... younger siblings for Carl? If so, have you checked those birth certs for details about Carl? In Qld, Vic and NSW you can often find that the youngest born's birth cert lists the name and then ages of each of the then living older siblings.
ADD
I have phoned an ancient living rellie, a retired senior officer from NSW bdm, to check re 1858 births, but I feel sure that while it was compulsory to register births, that the two obvious hassles were 1) did the couple know that (could they read English) and b) did they know that births en route to NSW could be registered up to 18 months after arrival?
Have you sought the ship's
Logbook for mention of the birth ... it may include passenger names ... So too the ships surgeons diary.
JM.
Thank you JM. Yes I have purchased two books about the Fanny Kirchner. The ship's passenger list is not inclusive. I didn't think of the ship's log or surgeon records. I wonder where I could start searching for that. Carl was the eldest child. His brother and sisters were born in Ipswich near Peak Mountain where they lived. Trove shows newspaper records of them earlier than when Fridolin purchased land there.
Sincerely,
Leisa
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Hi All,
Here are a couple of other threads from Leisa about the SCHMEIDERs
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=774267.msg6275569#msg6275569
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=637009.0
Agreeing with JM here that I have never heard that births on board are registered in the native country of the parents.
The information from JM's relatives will be of great interest as they are an endless fount of knowledge in such matters. ;D
Sue
Thank you Sue for helping me again. With kind regards, Leisa
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From my research there are years missing when they arrived in Sydney to when I can see my great, great, grandfather on the electoral roll in 1870.
I don't know what you mean by that. There are plenty of references on Trove through the 1860's and a number of children born in Queensland.
To find them travelling to Queensland you would need to go to Queensland archives and see what records they have for coastal vessels arriving. It would most likely be a government steamer. If they arrived in March 1858 and their son was born in Queensland on 8 May 1859 then at least it isn't a huge amount of time that you would need to search.
Debra :)
Hello Debra, what I meant was that using Trove, I have found my ancestor's names mentioned in the Peak Mountain Ipswich Qld area before Fridolin was on the electoral roll. Also their son was born on the ship that they came out on in port at Sydney harbour. I agree with you that it would more than likely be a government steamer. I have also looked at Trove for steamer's manifests of passengers travelling from Sydney to Brisbane in 1858.
Thank you also for assisting me.
Leisa
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Here´s a list of people thanking the Captain. There´s no Schmeider mentioned
https://vereine.genealogy.net/maus/auswanderung/fanny_kirchner.html
Dave
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https://www.public-juling.de/passagierlisten/listen.php?ArchivIdent=HK-25.10.1857_oFK&start=1&pers=&ankunftshafen=Sydney%2C+Australien&abreisehafen=Bremerhaven&lang=en
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Thank you all for helping me with my research. I am unsure how to reply to you all individually, so please forgive me for doing so now. I did try last week, however, I believe that you might of not seen my posts.
Louisa Maud - Thank you for you kind words.
Majm - Yes, Fredolin's other children were born in Ipswich. Thank you for suggesting to purchase the youngest child's birth certificate to see if Carl Frederick's name is listed on it. I am unsure if Fredolin and Elizabetha were able to speak English, however from Trove newspaper articles, there are comments that they had said that were in English. Again, I am unsure if they knew they could register their first born son that was born on the ship in Australian waters with the government after 18 months. The ship's surgeon is a great idea to look for a record, however, again I am not sure how too. I have located the logbook online. Sadly not all passengers are recorded in the records.
Sparrett - I am not sure where I heard that information from that children born on foreign ships were registered with their country or origin. Thank you for clarifying that for me.
Dundee - My great grandfather was born March 1858 while the ship was in quarantine. His gravestone says this date. I have ordered his death certificate online as well. The newspaper articles from Trove show that their was a birth on the ship. His birth on the ship which was in quarantine for small pox in Port Jackson...a story passed down through the family, can be seen in the shipping report for Port Jackson in 1858. I have also checked Trove for passenger lists from 1858 travelling from Sydney to Brisbane. Sadly, I am unable to find my great, great, grandparent's names.
Essie - I have checked the NSW bdm as well. Thank you.
Dave Capps - Thank you for sending the info through of the ship's manifest from German archives and online. I too have seen this information. However, I have also read that the total manifest is not complete from my research. A Trove article from the Shipping Gazette Sydney Trade, dated Monday 26th Sept, 1859, states that there were 214 passengers upon the ship and one birth from Bremen.
I do hope that I am replying on the right page now. Again, I apologise for not knowing how to use the chat and reply to you all individually.
Thank you again everyone for replying and assisting me.
I am very grateful again.
Sincerely,
Leisa
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Happy hunting Leisa
LM
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Hi, Leisa!
Can you please give the names of the two books you purchased re the "Fanny Kirchner"?
I've been researching this ship and her 1857/58 voyage to Sydney and would be very interested in these.
Ships' captains were supposed to register deaths and births upon arrival in port. However, that didn't happen with several of the 'German' ships arriving here around that time.
(I do know of some instances where German immigrants wrote home to relatives, or their pastor/priest, advising of births/deaths and had these entered in the church records of their parish.)
You mention a log-book being on-line. Do you mean the Sydney Shipping Master's report?
http://marinersandships.com.au/1858/03/004fan.htm
The number of immigrants reported to be aboard the "Fanny Kirchner" varies, depending on the source; 214, 210, 203, 200, 179 - and there's debate whether or not Cabin passengers and infants under 1 year were included in those totals. Certainly, there were more than those who signed letters of thanks to the Captain. (There are two - the one on the Die Maus, Bremen, website and the one appearing in the "Sydney Morning Herald" 09 Mar 1858.)
Likewise, the reported number of deaths varies - the Health Officer's Report states 4 deaths, 3 of which were infants, the "SMH", publishing the Health Officer's Report, states 2 deaths, and another source says 2 adults and 'several children'. However, all agree on the one birth taking place.
There is a difficulty, however, with this child being your ancestor. A male child by the name of JANSON was born during the voyage of the "Fanny Kirchner'. (His mother died soon after arrival and her death was the subject of an Inquest.) If it is accurate that only 1 birth took place, it can't, therefore, be that of your Carl Frederick SCHMEIDER.
Additionally, the "Fanny Kirchner", as per the Health Officer's Report, was not placed in quarantine and there was not small pox aboard. (The "Armin", which arrived in late 1858, did have small-pox, but this doesn't fit with your ancestor's stated date of birth, the 16th Feb 1858. This is also problematic as the vessel was still at sea then - not in port.)
I know how frustrating this must be for you and hope you do find something that will give you the answers you're looking for. And, of course, if you do, I'm sure there are many of us who would be interested to hear of it!
Rgs
Lisa
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Dear Lisa,
I was so sad reading your reply.
From my research and that of what my family has told me, I continue to believe that the dates on my great grandfather's headstone buried in the Catholic cemetery in Bundaberg, Qld, is proof that no matter what the shipping records, that we not accurate and also destroyed in Bremen, Germany because of the wars, that my great grandfather Carl was born on the ship. My beautiful dad recently passed after 87 years of loving his family. He told me the stories passed on by other members of his family how his grandfather was bought out to Australia. To this day, my research stays true and I will continue to hold on to that, as only family members who have heard the stories which have been passed onto generations speaks more than any media could. I am proudly tonight, holding on to this for my dad. He loved his family so much and I know that his ancestry is true.
The night dad passed away, I told him that he will soon be with his family he loved so much. I am so grateful for everything I found out for him and for all of the people that assisted me on the way.
Life will never be the same without him.
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I would like to thank everyone on here for what they have done for dad and I.
I am forever grateful to you all.
With so much love and so much sadness for my beautiful dad,
Leisa x
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Thank you so much for your beautiful reply, your dad will certainly be in the arms of those he loved and has loved him, may he rest in peace
Louisa Maud
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Thank you for your lovely message.
Others might like to see the wording on your grandfather's headstone:
Carl Frederick Schmeider
Died July 30, 1942
Aged 83 yrs & 5 mths
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Thank you Lisa,
I found the copy of the Journal of Burwood and District family journal online today dated March 2021.
Thank you for considering the information I supplied regarding my great, great grandparents in your journal.
Reading the journal, I believe that other's recounts that were discovered after the original research on this ship were accepted without question. It also mentions that records were not accurately recorded.
My grandfather's birthdate was the date that the Fanny Kirchner arrived in Australia. In your journal, you have his date of birth incorrect. They arrived in Australia the same time as the Fanny Kirchner. From my great grandfather's headstone, his date of birth is exactly the date of the ship arriving in Australia. In your journal, you mentioned that his parents Fredolin and Elizabetha Schmeider had on board a daughter also named Elizabeth. This is not the case as Carl was the first born and a sister named Elizabeth was born later in Australia.
Lisa, the story of my great, great grandparents has been handed down in time. There is no reason for me to believe otherwise. Yes, some facts may be inaccurate including small pox, however, everything that was printed in your evidence from the newspapers could of hid the truth, especially the recounts of other passengers that you have acknowledged who passed away and were thrown into sea. There was no mention of that into the investigation of the Fanny Kirchner in the newspapers available on Trove. A similar story was shared with my family. My great, great grandfather was unwell and the crew threatened to throw him overboard. My great, great grandmother stayed awake next to him all night so this didn't happen. Lisa, there story aligns with the other authors you have found that were also on the Fanny Kirchner.
Tomorrow, I will share a newspaper article that is not on Trove regarding my great grandfather Carl and his wife's anniversary. In this, he shares his story of being born on a ship in Port Jackson on that date.
Lisa, I hope that you can find in your heart to accept that out of love for my family, I would like my ancestors' story acknowledged and accepted. They never wrote a book or published a memoir of their travels...they just spoke their truth from their heart.
With the most kindest regards,
Leisa
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Thank you Maud and buttons for believing in me.
It means so much x
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Thank you Maud and buttons for believing in me.
It means so much x
Thank you for your lovely message.
Others might like to see the wording on your grandfather's headstone:
Carl Frederick Schmeider
Died July 30, 1942
Aged 83 yrs & 5 mths
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Thank you so much for your beautiful reply, your dad will certainly be in the arms of those he loved and has loved him, may he rest in peace
Louisa Maud
Thank you x
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For whoever is on this chat and is interested more in my family...
The Ipswich library has featured the Schmeider family as original pioneers in the Fassifern district.
Furthermore, I have seven folders of research including newspaper articles, land titles, birth and death records and certificates. These are still today kept in my dad's room. Since I began my research in 2010, the smile and memories it bought my dad before he passed away keeps my heart beating. He loved his family and so do I. x
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Dear Leisa,
My apologies, but I have only just seen your post from 10 April 2023.
It was definitely not my intention to upset you, nor is it my intention to argue with you. I understand how precious family memories and stories are. You were obviously extremely close to your much-loved father and have an understandable desire to keep both his memory, and that of your ancestors, alive.
I would very much like to see the newspaper article you mention from the time of your great-grandparents' wedding anniversary. I would imagine it refers to their Golden Anniversary in 1931? (If you have already posted it here on Rootschat, I'm sorry, but I haven't been able to find it.)
The article would add to my knowledge about the "Fanny Kirchner" and the immigrants who arrived aboard her. It may also help to correct any misassumptions I have made in my research.
With regards my article in "Ances-tree" (March 2021), the birth date of 16 Feb 1858 for your great-grandfather Carl is as per the 'Picture Ipswich' website and the (Ipswich) Early Settlers Database website. (You didn't give a date of birth in your posts, as far as I could see, prior to my article being published, and your great-grandfather's headstone does not provide a specific one.)
The daughter, Elisabeth Marie, mentioned in the article, married Henry DAMM and passed away 16 Oct 1879, aged just 23, that is, she was born c.1856
I have never stated that the SCHMEIDERs were not aboard the "Fanny Kirchner" - I have said that, given the information I had to hand, it did not seem likely. With over 200 passengers aboard the "Fanny Kirchner" and approx. half of these unidentified, I am always happy to stand corrected with any of my research.
with kind regards
Lisa
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Dear Lisa,
I am praying that with the attached newspaper article and my great grandfather's headstone, that the story that has been passed down from generation to generation which continues today with his son's (My grandfather, Carl Franics Schmeider's descendants of 57 grandchildren and his children -Who I am in contact with through a Facebook Page, dedicated to their memory) that he was indeed a passenger on the Fanny Kirchner.
Previously, I mentioned an outbreak of small pox on the boat. After speaking with my first, second and third cousins, the story is that TB was prevalent.
My great grandfather's birth was also a point of interest as he was born while the Fanny Kirchner was in port at Port Jackson. My relatives have told me that he was smuggled under his mother's skirt into Australia. Sadly, reports are that if someone was unwell or dying on the boat, they were thrown overboard. This also aligns with my previous messages that my great grandmother protected him when he was unwell so he was not thrown overboard.
Through my research, his hidden birth, records of births on ships at port that were recorded in the country originated, that my story, not just my story, but the story of my ancestors should be acknowledged and recognised.
With the most kindest regards,
Leisa
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Dear Lisa,
I am attaching a clearer photo of the newspaper article printed in a 1925 Bundaberg Daily News and Mail issue for you. I am also attaching a picture of my great, grandfather's headstone at the Bundaberg Catholic Cemetery in the next post as Rootschats wouldn't accept it as it was too large. Please note that although a date of birth has not been engraved, his family recognised his birth in Port Jackson when the Fanny Kirchner ship arrived (however, not having a birth certificate as I have previously mentioned due to him being born on the ship, German papers destroyed in the war, being hidden under his mother's skirt, etc) with his inscription being 'Died July 30 1942 aged 83 years and 5 months. This date recognises that he was born when the ship was in port.
If anyone else is reading this post, I would appreciate your support. (Or let me know that they have seen it and my photos have attached as I am not familiar with how 'Roots chat' works. I would really like to know how to see if my post has been seen or if a reply has been received. Thank you)
With many thanks and love for my family,
Leisa x
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When I was trying to attach my files, it was deemed too large.
Can someone please help me with this. I have two lovely photos to show Lisa.
With thanks,
Leisa
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Hope this helps https://www.iloveimg.com/
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Hi Lisa,
You will need to re-size them as there is a limit to how large the image files can be.
For help with this please read this topic.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=459330.0
Regards
Sarah
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Thank you Sarah and cupoflife.
I appreciate your replies.
Kind regards,
Leisa
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For Lisa. x
New information supporting my great grandfather being born on the Fanny Kirchner.
With thanks,
Leisa
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You know it is impossible for him to be born 16 Feb 1859 because his brother was born in May 1859 in Queensland, so both the newspaper article and the headstone are wrong, or it was a different ship.
If we assume that it should be 16 Feb 1858 then the day of birth is impossible because the Fanny Kirchner didn't arrive into Port Jackson until 27 Feb.
Debra :)
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Good morning Debra and thank you for your reply.
I realise that I have made an error with regards to Carl Frederick Schmeider's year and date of birth.
Carl was born in Feb 1858. He was unsure of the date as he had no birth certificate. The newspaper article is in fact incorrect with the year and day of his birth. However, his story has been passed down through generations with third and second cousins also knowing about his birth of the ship.
If you look at the inscription on his headstone, it says he passed away 30 July 1942 at the age of 83 years and five months. By my calculations, this makes Carl born in Feb 1858.
I do hope that you accept my apologies for the incorrect year of birth and date. With his brother being born in 1859 which a birth certificate in the Qld BDM, you are right that he was not born in that same year, which helps my case for him being born on the Fanny Kirchner.
With the most kindest regards Debra,
Leisa
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This family were Catholic so would have not waited too long to have a child baptised. Have you looked at church records in Sydney? Even if he was baptised onboard then he may have been received into the church after disembarkation.
https://www.sydneycatholic.org/directory/listing/sydney-archdiocesan-archives
Sacramental registers have been microfilmed within the constraints of legislation and are available for family history research at Society of Australian Genealogists (120 Kent Street Sydney), State Library of NSW and National Library of Australia (Canberra).
https://catalogue.nla.gov.au/catalog/6103587
SAG 0200. Baptisms: 1 January, 1846-6 October, 1848, also lists of persons received into the church, 1856-1858, 1868 (one only), 1848; 1 January, 1854-23 February, 1861, including entries for St. Benedict’s Church, Broadway and Sacred Heart Church, Darlinghurst.
I have previously borrowed microfilm on interlibrary loan from the NLA to Queensland, there is a fee. You can also try 'ask a librarian', as you might find that they are willing to have a quick look at the microfilm for you.
https://www.nla.gov.au/using-library/getting-started/ask-librarian
Debra :)
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Dear Debra,
Thank you.
I never thought about that. I had been on the NSW State Library/Archives/BDM websites, however, I was unsuccessful.
I will contact the library about the church records. My dad always wondered how they travelled from Sydney to Brisbane to be in the Fassifern area. I used Trove to look up names on paddleships during the year they arrived to when they settled near Ipswich. However, it was with no success.
Again Debra, I am very grateful to you for assisting me with my family research.
With so much thanks,
Leisa
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If you look at the inscription on his headstone, it says he passed away 30 July 1942 at the age of 83 years and five months. By my calculations, this makes Carl born in Feb 1858.
No, it is 1859.
Debra :)
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I am very sorry if I have upset you Debra as it was not my intention at all.
I do not understand your abrupt replies with a green face emoji.
In the past, everyone that has helped me on here has been accepting that sometimes, records are incorrect and have assisted me in the right direction, similar to what you did today with the Sydney parish registers.
I trust and hope that we can move forward as I believe you have knowledge that surpasses my 12 years of self-taught research.
With only the greatest admiration,
Leisa
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Hi, Leisa!
There is a difficulty, however, with this child being your ancestor. A male child by the name of JANSON was born during the voyage of the "Fanny Kirchner'. (His mother died soon after arrival and her death was the subject of an Inquest.) If it is accurate that only 1 birth took place, it can't, therefore, be that of your Carl Frederick SCHMEIDER.
Additionally, the "Fanny Kirchner", as per the Health Officer's Report, was not placed in quarantine and there was not small pox aboard. (The "Armin", which arrived in late 1858, did have small-pox, but this doesn't fit with your ancestor's stated date of birth, the 16th Feb 1858. This is also problematic as the vessel was still at sea then - not in port.)
I know how frustrating this must be for you and hope you do find something that will give you the answers you're looking for. And, of course, if you do, I'm sure there are many of us who would be interested to hear of it!
Rgs
Lisa
Hi Leisa,
It is always challenging when family stories believed by generations of descendants do not tally with available factual information.
Perhaps you already have these links, but I am adding them for your interest and to build onexisting contributions above.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/13006828
Arrival of Fanny Kirchner in Sydney 27 Feb 1858.
The ship “Armani” NOVEMBER 1858 was quarantined with a case of smallpox.
This agent for this vessel was KIRCHNER and co.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/161172686
The sad Janson inquest details. The one birth on board. It tells how a large number of immigrants were sent to very poor lodgings which were filthy and horrible. Smallpox is not mentioned.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/28634697
Good luck in your quest.
Sue ;)
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Thank you Sue,
I appreciate your kindness and understanding.
I have also been searching for ships arriving in Australia during this period through the Trove newspapers that were quarantined for small pox.
I read an article that quoted that often the shipping records were kept from the last port that was departed from. In other words, if my family left from Bremen or Hamburg and stopped at the Cape of Good Hope in Africa, the records would reflect their departure there.
Sadly, not many shipping records during this time that arrived in Sydney, then departed to Melbourne, the number of immigrants are listed, but not all of their names.
Yes, it is very sad when family history and stories passed down does not correlate with the records and newspaper articles available to us and you feel defeated trying to justify the why and when.
If anyone would like to assist me in my search for answers, I would appreciate your input or access to what is not available online.
With my deepest respect and apologies,
Leisa. x
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Ha Ha.
To think I was upset with the green emojis only to find that I replied with a similar emoji years ago.
Obviously, green emojis are used on Roots Chat.
Please accept my deepest apologies. I feel like a fool all in the love of my family.
Leisa x