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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Gloucestershire => England => Gloucestershire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: SarahChurchill13 on Wednesday 30 December 20 22:39 GMT (UK)
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First time poster, so please correct me as necessary as I learn how to use RootsChat! :)
Aside - I have been using Family Search, but have not yet subscribed to any other geneology sites, and am also not sure which one would be best to help me with further research, so haven't decided to pay for anything yet. If, in reading this post, someone has a suggestion for a good subscription geneology site that will help with parish records please do let me know.
I'm trying to trace back my history before the census records and have hit a brick wall. My family tree has a John Churchill, born 1815 in Bristol (per later census records - so DOB is likely an estimate). He died Aug 1877 in Sunderland. I have his father on his marriage record listed as William Churchill. My family tree that my grandfather worked on also listed his father as William Churchill with a DOB of 1780 and stated that he was a "London Butcher". Unfortunately my grandfather died before I got into this and I wasn't able to ask where he got that information from (I believe a lot of the family tree came from the Churchill Family Bible that my great aunt in England has). I am trying to figure out what siblings John Churchill had (my tree also has a brother, Alfred Churchill - no dates, just from the handwritten tree), and looking to see if I can determine which William Churchill was his father based on the records I'm finding.
Family Search has suggested a record hint of a Christening in 1813 for a John Churchill with a father of William Churchill and a mother named Margaretta. Searching for the same mother and father names pulls up records for Charles, Elizabeth and Margaretta all in Bristol at St. Paul's. It also pulls up a record for Samuel-Joyce with a mother of Margaret. I found later records of Christenings with parents William and Margaretta Churchill at St Pancras (in 1824) in London for Mary Ann Churchill, William Henry Churchill and James Joyce Churchill and was able to access the image file for these records, which show the father's profession as Gardener, and not Butcher. Later than that, in 1826, I have a Christening record for James Churchill in Honiton, Devon again with William and Margaretta. It could be one family moving around, or different families, and quite possible none of them are my William.
I am wondering if it is possible to access the images or more detailed records from St. Paul's in Bristol - I can only find the transcriptions, which don't include the profession of the father, and I'm hoping I will get lucky and find the profession for the Bristol records at least to rule in or out this William Churchill. I don't know if anyone has access to these (I'm in Canada, and obviously a trip to the UK isn't on the cards at the moment). The lack of Alfred Churchill makes me think I'm ruling out all these records, but I've never been able to find ANY records of Alfred Churchill. I would have thought he would have died in infancy perhaps, except it's odd that he's on the family tree my grandpa drew up if that were the case (and there were other children who died in infancy NOT on the tree). I'm also wondering if I may get lucky and find a middle name of Alfred of one of the other children on the records which could maybe explain things?
If anyone has any other suggestions on how to track down this William Churchill, or find his wife's name, please let me know. I can't find him in any census data (not a huge surprise if he was born in 1780) and I'm not sure where else to look. May not be possible!
Thank you in advance! :)
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Abode West St
John Churchill
Baptism 17 Jan 1813 St Philip and Jacob, Gloucestershire
Father: William Churchill Mother: Margaretta
EDIT sorry wrote the wrong occupation William was a Gardener
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Do you have John on 1841 census?
Did John marry Elizabeth Jarman?
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Thank you Ladyhawk - looks like it's not him, or he had a very late and odd change of career! :D Thanks for helping me rule out a record though!
Yes, John married Elizabeth Jarman. I have the family tree (quite thoroughly) for all their descendents, just can't take it back and further before them (beyond his father as William and Elizabeth Jarman's father as George on their marriage record). I've managed to broaden the tree since my Grandpa worked on it, but never managed to take it back further, even with the internet. Clearly that family Bible had all the important info in it!
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Is there a connection with son Alfred’s middle name Braddon and the witness to John & Elizabeth’s marriage Margretta Braddon ?
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Quite possibly - I don't have the details of the marriage (witness info) so didn't know this! Thank you!
What site are you using for the extra details in the data (Ancestry/Find my Past etc.)? It sounds like it might be worth me buying a subscription to somewhere after all.
If she was a Margaretta Bradden/Braddon as a witness then she may have been either John's mother or a sibling. Which makes me think there is a connection to the Christening records with William Churchill and Margaretta as the parents, but the lack of an Alfred and the career as a gardener rather than butcher is confusing me.
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Marriage at St Pancras, 2 April 1829
John Braddon, Widower
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Margaretta Churchill, Spinster
Witnesses Saml Churchill, Margette(?) Churchill
Image on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSFH-83Q6-V
1841 in Marylebone, piece 675 book 2 folio 32 page 56
John Braddon 55 Accountant, Not born county
Margaretta Braddon 30 Yes
Amelia Braddon 15 Yes
4 more children
Margaretta Churchill 65 Ind No
Margaret Hogan 15 F. S. Yes
Image is on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-13G2-N4BP
Amelia was born before John Braddon and Margaretta Churchill married
Baptized 14 August 1825, St Pancras
Says illegitimate, both parents are named.
Image
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSF7-YSNN-N
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Morning Jonw65 - you've beaten me to it :)
SarahChurchill13
To help others just confirming this is your John Churchill on 1871 census in Sunderland
Piece: 5017 Folio: 37 Page Number: 68
John Churchill 56 Bristol, Publican
Elizabeth Churchill 51 London
John Churchill 23 Bedale Yorks
Alexina Churchill 19 Dalton Yorks (GRO indexes confirming mmn JARMAN)
Frederick Churchill 17 ditto
Katherine Churchill 15 Bedale
Alfred B Churchill 11 Sunderland
Mary M Churchill 8 ditto
Jane Robson 20
and (no image)
Alfred Bradden Churchill
Birth 8 Dec 1859 Sunderland,Durham,England
Father: John Churchill Mother: Elizabeth Jarman
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Hi Ladyhawk.
you've beaten me to it :)
That must be a first!
Just add the death of John
Sep 1845 Marylebone 1 104
Braddon, John
age 64
A PCC will for him, which can be downloaded for free at the moment on TNA website
Will of John Braddon, Accountant of Saint Marylebone , Middlesex
Date 18 August 1845
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D86623
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William Churchill marries Margaret Joyce at Walcot-near Bath- 24 Dec 1801.
djm297
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William Churchill marries Margaret Joyce at Walcot-near Bath- 24 Dec 1801.
djm297
That's interesting djm297
Not found baptism for John Churchill born c 1814 father William, Butcher :-\
Baptism 9 Sep 1804 St Philip and Jacob, Gloucestershire
Register Type: Parish Register
Samuel-Joyce (8w), William & Margaret Churchill (butcher), Barton
Charles baptism age 2, father William Churchill, butcher , Margaret
Baptism 1 Apr 1804 St Philip and Jacob, Gloucestershire
EDIT to add
this appears to be Samuel's son marriage
Charles Churchill Age: 68, widower butcher
Marriage 18 Nov 1901 All Hallows, Tottenham, Haringey, England
Father: Samuel Joyce Churchill, valet, deceased
Spouse: Emma Louisa Griffith
and Samuel & son on 1851 census HO107; Piece: 1496; Folio: 876; Page: 19
Samuel Churchill 47 Bristol Labourer (roads)
Eliza 42
Mary A 21 Gen Serv
Chas 17 Butcher’s ap
Eliza 13
Jane 9
Amelia 8
Margaret 2
Samuel Joyce Churchill
Marriage 3 Mar 1829 St Marylebone, Westminster
Spouse: Eliza Jane Graves
married in the presence of Wm P? Churchill & Margaret Braddon
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The marriage of John BRADDON at Saint Pancras 2 April 1829 was by Licence (which could give more information)
the witnesses were
Saml CHURCHILL and Margarett CHURCHILL
Children christened at St Marylebone, Westminster
Amelia Elizth BRADDON - 14 August 1825
Margaretta Elford BRADDON - 8 November 1829
Adelaide BRADDON - 17 July 1831
Ellen Angell BRADDON - 1 Jan 1835
Victoria Oldrey BRADDON - 21 May 1837
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Freereg
Has the marriage of Margaret JOYCE, Spinster- at Walcot St Swithin - 24 December 1801 (there are other JOYCE's listed)
to
William CHURCHILL - Bachelor -
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Ancestry : copy marriage at Walcot St Swithin, both William CHURCHILL and Maggret JOYCE - sign their names : witnesses: Joseph WITTON and James HOWE
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Ancestry
Baptism at Westminster St James, Piccadilly 4 April 1807
Margaretta CHURCHILL - parents: Willm CHURCHILL and Margaretta
Baptism at Gloucestershire, St Philip and Jacob
1804
9 September
Samuel JOYCE (8 weeks) of William & Margaret CHURCHILL (Butcher) Barton Street.
Charles (christened 2 years) previous reply - address again was Barton Street.
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WOW! Thanks Everyone!
There's a ton of info here. It certainly looks like William Churchill and Margaret Joyce could be the right parents, since he's a butcher. Still don't understand the lack of records for John Churchill or Alfred Churchill though if that's the case.
We definitely have the right John Churchill (m. Elizabeth Jarman) as he did have a daughter named Alexina, and fortunately that made it easy to find the census records as the name is unique (finally someone NOT named John! ;D)
The marriage info for John Braddon and Margaretta Churchill is certainly promising, and the marriage date of 1829 would certainly fit with her being an older sibling of John Churchill, with the witness Samuel being another brother (presumably Samuel Joyce Churchill DOB 1804).
I think it's definitely possible this is the right family, but I'd like to find records for Alfred Churchill (DOB between 1800-1825 probably) or John Churchill that can connect them to William Churchill and Margaret Joyce beyond John and Elizabeth's son being named Alfred Bradden/Braddon.
I'll keep looking and following some of the lateral threads to see if they lead back anywhere concrete!
Thank you again everyone!
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Capetown thank you for confirming address is Barton Street already posted details of Samuel & Charles baptism reply 10 and Jonw65 had posted some details of Braddon's at reply 6
Sarahchurchill13 - glad we could be of help :)
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Father's occupation's do change - especially if they are 'out of work' of sometimes went bankrupt!
My x Grandfather was a Miller, went bankrupt and later became a labourer, and left the County!
just to refresh
John CHURCHILL, 17 January 1813, St Philip & St Jacob
Parents: William & Margaretta CHURCHILL - residence: West Street, occupation: Gardner
and again same church
Elizabeth CHURCHILL, 2 June 1826, William & Margaret CHURCHILL, residence: St Phillips, occupation: Gardiner
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CapetownThanks - I think it's certainly possible, though I'm surprised we have him listed in family documents as a butcher if he spent relatively little time as a butcher compared to the time spent as a gardener. Maybe he butchered the plants! :D I'm still confused as to the total absence of Alfred though considering! I have asked my great Aunt to double check what little information she may have in the family bible (assuming she can find and read it) just in case there is something useful hiding there.
I will also have a look at the census records for William Churchill again and see if I can find anything that may be him based on the occupation of Gardener now. I know the dates aren't likely in my favour but I can give it a try!
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Do you know where and when William Churchill died?
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My x Ancestor - previous a Miller, then a labourer...... on his death certificate, the Son wrote his father's occupation as : Farmer.
Family pride.....
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Ladyhawk No unfortunately. I don't have any concrete information about him, beyond him listed as the father for John. And William is such a common name I've struggled to narrow down which of many he could be. Hopefully now I may make some headway.
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Your William noted as deceased on John's m/c 1848 :-\ not that this is going to help posting due to occupation
1851 census Piece: 1570 Folio:141 Page Number: 6
Lambeth London
William Churchill 71 Gardener Dorset ?lock
R 60 wife Sussex Brighton
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Ladyhawk Thanks for the 1851 census info - agreed, if my William is dead by John's marriage in 1848 then that can't be him. I will look at the 1841 census info and see if any Williams look promising on there, but it's certainly possible that he never made it into census data depending on when he died. I will also start looking at death records for Williams up to 1848 and see if anything there is helpful.
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As profession's can run in families, had a look the 1830 Pigots Directory for Gloucestershire (on line)
and checked for Bristol (Churchill)
There is
CHURCHILL Jno. occupation: Butcher - 126 Exchange Shambles, Bristol
CHURCHILL Samuel & Son - Boot and Shoe Maker - 42 Castle Street, Bristol
CHURCHILL William - Boot and Shoe Maker - 40 Old Market Street, Bristol
(John seems to be a family )
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Earlier Street Directories do exist, but not sure if they are on line
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1851 Census Durham, Dalton on Tees
Dalton Station
where John is the Station Master Rail and states he was born in Gloucestershire, Bristol
CHURCHILL
On this census the Enumerator has written John's age as 37 -
Elizabeth aged 32 - Station Master's wife - born London St George
John 3 - born Yorkshire, Beadale
James - 1 born Yorkshire, Dalton
GRO INDEX
CHURCHILL John Hudson - mother's maiden name JARMAN
Hudson would probably be a surname from either the Mother or the father.
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Look on Freereg for James CHURCHILL
County: Yorkshire, North Riding
Place : Richmond
Baptism Date: 17 Mar 1850
James
father: John
mother : Elizabeth
abode : Richmond
father occupation: Station Master.
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Frederick CHURCHILL baptised at the same place - 5 Mar 1854
John was the Station Master.
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I don't think this has been mantioned....Frederic Churchill bapt in Bristol on 26 Aug 1810, son of William Churchill and Margaret.
He appears in Census records in Marylebone as a servant born in Clifton, Bristol.
djm297
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Looking at the baptism of Frederick at Bristol St James 26 August 1810 - two boys are christened together with different fathers
}Frederic of William & Margaret CHURCHILL
}John of John & Mary CHURCHILL
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Just for info : Mary Ann was a popular name, and one of my Ancestors, the mother christian name was sometimes listed as Mary and on others Ann
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djm
Can see Frederic(k) on various census as you say
On the 1851 Census in Marylebone
Frederick CHURCHILL Servant is a Widower - aged 40 occupation: Butler, from Clifton, Somerset
The border between Gloucestershire/Somerset is always confusing
On the 1841 census
Frederic CHURCHILL aged 30 is a Male Servant as the home of
Viscount HOOD
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? marriage 1841 and 1851
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What about the following deduction:
William Pearce Churchill buried 12 Jan 1836 at St James Westminster-Age 65 (born 1771)-abode Warren Street, St Pancras.
William Churchel bapt 7 Oct 1770 at West Pennard Somerset -son of Samuel and Elizabeth Churchel.
Samuel Churchill marries Betty Pearce at West Pennard on 10 Feb 1763-by licence.
William and Margaretta name their first son Samuel.?
djm297
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I think that's it, because the the William P....... (can make out PEARCE now) CHURCHILL signature at the wedding of Samuel Joyce CHURCHILL in 1829.
and Betty is a nickname for Elizabeth.
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There is this marriage at St Marylebone, Westminster 28 February 1837
Frederick CHURCHILL of Trinity in the Parish of St Marylebone
Ann SMITH - Trinity (again by Licence)
witnesses: John CHURCHILL and Eliza CHURCHILL
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Baptism at Westminster St Mary, Bryanstone Square
22 April 1840 (date of birth: February 1840)
Caroline Margaretta CHURCHILL
father: Frederick (occupation: Butler)
mother: Ann
residence: 41 Upper York Street
Caroline CHURCHILL aged 3 months is buried (residence: Upper York Street, Marylebone)
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1851 Census Durham, Dalton on Tees
Dalton Station
where John is the Station Master Rail and states he was born in Gloucestershire, Bristol
CHURCHILL
On this census the Enumerator has written John's age as 37 -
Elizabeth aged 32 - Station Master's wife - born London St George
John 3 - born Yorkshire, Beadale
James - 1 born Yorkshire, Dalton
GRO INDEX
CHURCHILL John Hudson - mother's maiden name JARMAN
Hudson would probably be a surname from either the Mother or the father.
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Look on Freereg for James CHURCHILL
County: Yorkshire, North Riding
Place : Richmond
Baptism Date: 17 Mar 1850
James
father: John
mother : Elizabeth
abode : Richmond
father occupation: Station Master.
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Frederick CHURCHILL baptised at the same place - 5 Mar 1854
John was the Station Master.
For those helping you maybe interested in the family tree created by SarahChurchill https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L5KL-935
Not looked at every detail although there doesn't appear to be an 1841 census for John Churchill born c1814 or 1861 census for John & his family wife Elizabeth, children John, Alexia, Frederick, Katherine & Alfred B Churchill
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Excellent.
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Don't know if this has already been posted apologies if I'm duplicating
1848 marriage of John Churchill gave his residence as Trinity District
Is this a possibility for the death of his father William
William Churchill Age: 64 Burial 15 Dec 1843 St James, Pentonville, Islington
William Churchill Esq of Residence: Trinity Row Islington county of Middlesex
Probate Date: 18 Jan 1843
I’ve only scanned through the above Will quickly quite difficult to read these are some names I've picked out not sure of some of the spellings
Sister Jane Kearsey
Brother Samuel Churchill
Brother Charles Churchill
Late brother Joseph Churchill
Not sure how these are related names come after late brother Joseph need to take a closer look at wording to decipher
Joseph S?y Churchill, Sophia Churchill Caroline Lu?as and Mary Ann ?ate
To my late wife’s ? Auralia G??cy late wife of John Gurn?y and to Harriet ?….. of my present wife
Servant Mary Wootton if all be living with me at the time of my and to my late servant Elizabeth Johnson and to ? Two daughters of my late brother George Churchill
And to Edward Saxton and Charles Saxton …… of my late wife ….
William Churchill …… sons of my late Brother George Churchill
Give to my said wife ??illis? All my freehold estates (her name might be Phillis)
William Churchill, widower
Marriage Date: 19 May 1834
Marriage Place: St Mary, Islington, Islington,
Spouse: Phillis Andrews, widow
1841c Piece: 665Folio: 23 Page Number: 4
Trinity Row
Wm Churchill 60 occ Ind.
Phillis Churchill 50
Mary Gurney 10
Neither born in this county
Others named on in the household servants
Mary Wootton 30 F.S. (she could be the servant mentioned in the Will)
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@ Capetown/DJM297 I can't find records for Frederick Churchill through Family Search - where were you able to pull this up? Unfortunately they're all behind an extra paywall through Ancestry. I can see the census data though - definitely looks promising. I may not be able to get to the baptism records for Frederick and John in 1810 without paying - that's OK.
I think it's fair to say this looks like it could be the right family - I'm just worried about John's brother Alfred and his lack of existence! Alfred is on every family tree written by my Grandpa and by my cousin (also now deceased - I wish I'd started this when they were alive!). I'm also wondering about the clear lack of baptism record for John considering the rest of the family seems well-documented. Capetown's records of Frederick and John baptised in Bristol in 1810 could fit, but the parent names are so different - possibly an error? 1810 is also a *bit* early for John based on everything else we have (family info, census records, age and death date on tombstone).
John and Elizabeth as witnesses at Frederick and Ann's wedding seems to connect the family. I'll keep looking for poor Alfred.
Ladyhawk I will have a look at a copy of that will if I can find it and see if I find any other useful info. Could be promising! Definitely have Samuels and Charles in the family tree, so may be keeping the names in the family, but it's much harder when they have such common names!
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Ancestry has
Bristol, England, Church of England Baptisms, Marriages and Burials 1538-1812 (actual copy of register)
Baptism 1819 at Bristol St James, Parish Register 1797-1812
Frederic and John CHURCHILLS baptisms both on the 26 August 1810 - with different fathers is at the bottom of the page.
The marriage of Samuel Joyce CHURCHILL to Eliza Jane GRAVES - it really does appear to be Wm Pearce Churchill as a witness, along with Margaret BRADDAN
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I have been using the records on Find My Past-where there is a baptism for John Churchill age 5 weeks on 17 Jan 1813 at Bristol-son of William and Margaretta.
The birth record and all the census details for Frederick are also there...is he on the trees you have from your family? Could he actually be the "Alfred"on the trees you have?
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I used Family Search to find Samuel CHURCHILL on the 1841 census with his family - which led me to find them on Ancestry, transcribed as Saml CHISENHALL and his family.
They are living in Middlesex, St Marylebone, Christchurch -
Park Street - (it is a bit faint)
Saml CHURCHILL - 36 Servant, not born in County
Elizh - 31 - Middlesex
Mary - 13
Charles - 8 (Charles is a Butcher's Apprentice - 1851 census)
Eliza - 4
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My Grandad's name was William, but known as Ted - People did, and still have nicknames - or are known by another name (sometimes middle name etc)
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Capetown kindly shared this, and I'm interested in whether anyone has seen this before. The bracket connecting the two (Frederick and John) is only used for siblings with the same parent names listed on the rest of the parish register. Does anyone have any idea why there may be different parent names listed, and yet the bracket is there connecting the two? Has anyone seen this before?
(https://i.imgur.com/CPwOtQR.jpg)
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Ladyhawk I read through a bit of that will (it is tough going!) and agree with the names you've got. That said, it looks like he leaves many things to wife Phillis, including "brewing utensils and barrels". Does that make it likely that he was a brewer then do we think?
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There is a Maria CHURCHILL burial at Gloucester St James, 6 June 1811 (same Church as the baptism). - May be the mother was poorly and couldn't attend the baptism.
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Completed.
Thanks all! :)