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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: thomo7 on Tuesday 27 September 22 12:01 BST (UK)
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Hi all,
Searching (mainly) for Hugh Waters/Watters birth somewhere between Ayrshire, Lanarkshire (Govan Parish) hopefully. I've been searching mainly on Scotlandspeople.
So far;
Hugh Waters marriage to Isabella Howie Fisher in Riccarton, Ayrshire 16 Aug 1850.
He is recorded as being from Govan Parish. (not sure if this means 'currently from' OR 'born in' Govan Parish.
I haven't found any birth that is a likely match and I have no idea how old he was at his marriage. I'm having a lot of trouble with Hugh...
I have found Isabella's siblings (so far 7 of them) her parents were John Fisher & Margaret Gemmel (Gimmel, Gemmill, Gammel). Isabella's family appear in the 1841, 1851 & 1861 census but Isabella only appears in the 1841 census as she married in 1850 and I haven't found her with husband, Hugh Waters in any census, yet.
I have the birth of Isabella Howie Fisher and have attached the image - just wondering if there is any reason for the name Howie Fisher to be in the Surname column when the Howie is also listed as her second name?
I also have worked out an age range for Isabella's parents from the 1841, '51 & '61 census' as John Fisher 1785-1791 and Margaret Gemmel as being 1789-1801.
If anyone has any advice on where to next, that'd be lovely.
I have been told that we have a Spanish link somewhere but I've yet to find that!
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Any children born to the 1850 marriage? What occupation is shown for Hugh on the birth entries?
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Hugh and Isabella Walters (not Waters) on 1851 census Govan, Lanark both aged 23.
hmcc
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Two Hugh Walters born 1821 and 1826 Glasgow toWalter Walters and Jean Crawford on SP.
hmcc.
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Any children born to the 1850 marriage? What occupation is shown for Hugh on the birth entries?
There was one daughter, (that I know of) Margaret born in 1854. I don't have her birth certificate yet but Hugh, Isabella and Margaret (and possibly Isabella's sister, Sarah Fisher) migrated to Australia and Hugh is listed as Labourer. Pretty broad but will keep looking..should the 1854 birth certificate for Margaret have Fathers Occupation listed?
Thanks for the input :)
Have downloaded the certificate and doesn't list Father's Occupation, it does confirm the spelling of Margaret Gemmill Waters and her registration in Glasgow Eglington street United Succession church.
Haven't located any children after their moving to Australia.
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Hugh and Isabella Walters (not Waters) on 1851 census Govan, Lanark both aged 23.
hmcc
HMCC, I guess spelling mistakes are to be expected, I've had more spelling possibilities with this line than any other! That sounds likely.
Two Hugh Walters born 1821 and 1826 Glasgow toWalter Walters and Jean Crawford on SP.
hmcc.
I had a Jean Crawford come up on search, is it logical to stick with the Govan Parish? If not, there are quite a few other options (my knowledge of the area is doubtful but I'm learning), I will check out the walters and crawford certificate and see what comes up.
Thanks for the input :)
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"Hugh, Isabella and Margaret (and possibly Isabella's sister, Sarah Fisher) migrated to Australia and Hugh is listed as Labourer."
What details do you have for their arrival.......ship......port of arrival....date.
What children did they have in Australia?
Where and when did Hugh and Isabella die?
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The baptism is on Scotlands People other churches for their daughter Margaret Gemmill Watters born 11 September 1854
Eglinton Street United Seccession Glasgow baptism 1 October .Parents Hugh Watters and Isabella Fisher .It would be worth viewing to see what information is there
Rosie
Amended
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Hugh Watters died 29 August 1897 Hawker South Australia
Isabella Watters died 31 August 1927 Adelaide South Australia
Arrival 23 April 1860 South Australia ship Grand Trianon
Hugh Watters age 31 Labourer /Carter
Isabella Watters
Margaret Watters
Rosie
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On the 1851 census address Bolton Street Govan
Hugh Watters age 23 born about 1828 Formunoch Ireland would think it would Fermanagh
Occupation carter
Isabella Watters age 23 born Riccarton
Mathew Fisher age 24 born Riccarton brother in law
Rosie
Addedwww. freecen,org 1851 census his place of birth County Fermanagh
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There was one daughter, (that I know of) Margaret born in 1854. I don't have her birth certificate yet .. should the 1854 birth certificate for Margaret have Fathers Occupation listed?
Statutory civil registration began in 1855. Before 1 January 1855 there was no such thing as a birth certificate, so you will not find one for Margaret born in 1854.
In 1854, any record you find is not a birth certificate, but a record of baptism. The information in a baptism record can be a sparse as just the father's name, or it can include details of the mother's name, child's name, child's date of birth, the parents' residence, the father's occupation, and the names and residences of witnesses. Some parishes even note whom the child was named after, or the relationship of witnesses to the child, but those are quite rare.
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Sorry I should have put baptism I have amended my post ;)
Rosie
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The baptism is on Scotlands People other churches for their daughter Margaret Gemmill Watters born 11 September 1854
Eglinton Street United Seccession Glasgow baptism 1 October .Parents Hugh Watters and Isabella Fisher .It would be worth viewing to see what information is there
Rosie
Amended
Thanks Rosie17. I have downloaded the birth record and that's all there is to it. The Watters/Waters is actually written as Waters in the record. Would be nice if there was more info but that's how it goes! Cheers
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"Hugh, Isabella and Margaret (and possibly Isabella's sister, Sarah Fisher) migrated to Australia and Hugh is listed as Labourer."
What details do you have for their arrival.......ship......port of arrival....date.
What children did they have in Australia?
Where and when did Hugh and Isabella die?
Thanks Wivenhoe, I have the passenger list page (looks as though it is from a ships log over a period of time but I haven't seen one like this before, the first page of the document shows the departure was from Liverpool
arrival point was Adelaide South Australia and the arrival date 23 April 1860.
I don't believe that they had any other children in Australia but I will continue to check that.
cheers
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On the 1851 census address Bolton Street Govan
Hugh Watters age 23 born about 1828 Formunoch Ireland would think it would Fermanagh
Occupation carter
Isabella Watters age 23 born Riccarton
Mathew Fisher age 24 born Riccarton brother in law
Rosie
Addedwww. freecen,org 1851 census his place of birth County Fermanagh
Wow, you guys are FAST! Thanks that is the right family, as I have a record of Matthew for 1826 Riccarton, he was the eldest of the Isabella's siblings, she was 2nd child followed by Elizabeth, Mary, John?, William Kissock, Sarah and Margaret forn in 1841.
Thanks Rosie
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There was one daughter, (that I know of) Margaret born in 1854. I don't have her birth certificate yet .. should the 1854 birth certificate for Margaret have Fathers Occupation listed?
Statutory civil registration began in 1855. Before 1 January 1855 there was no such thing as a birth certificate, so you will not find one for Margaret born in 1854.
In 1854, any record you find is not a birth certificate, but a record of baptism. The information in a baptism record can be a sparse as just the father's name, or it can include details of the mother's name, child's name, child's date of birth, the parents' residence, the father's occupation, and the names and residences of witnesses. Some parishes even note whom the child was named after, or the relationship of witnesses to the child, but those are quite rare.
Thanks Forfarian, I knew it was a Baptism record as SP has a note that it wouldn't be registered as such prior to 1855. It would have been nice to have had the extra detail but with the help I'm receiving its going well anyway. thanks all.
The church record of the marriage of Hugh Waters and Isabella at least included that he was from Govan Parish and she was from 'this' parish.
Cheers,
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"Hugh, Isabella and Margaret (and possibly Isabella's sister, Sarah Fisher) migrated to Australia and Hugh is listed as Labourer."
What details do you have for their arrival.......ship......port of arrival....date.
What children did they have in Australia?
Where and when did Hugh and Isabella die?
Hi again Wivenhoe,
The ship was the Grand Trianon (I'm presuming the first page of the document is the details for all the pages (Hugh, Isabella and daughter Margaret waters are listed on page 7).
Hugh Waters, died in Hawker, in the Frome District of South Australia in 29 Aug 1897. Hemorrhage of the heart, mentions his wife as Isabella Howie Waters and his daughter, Mrs John Cocks.
cheers
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Not having much luck finding him on the 1841 census ??? and any more family for them
Rosie
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On the 1851 census address Bolton Street Govan
Hugh Watters age 23 born about 1828 Formunoch Ireland would think it would Fermanagh
Occupation carter
Isabella Watters age 23 born Riccarton
Mathew Fisher age 24 born Riccarton brother in law
Rosie
Addedwww. freecen,org 1851 census his place of birth County Fermanagh
From Rosie's 1851 census entry for Hugh and Isabella, and the mention of Fermanagh.
I wonder if this other 1851 census entry could be connected to Hugh?:
Edward Purves 24
Margaret Purves 22
Samuel Allardice 29
Margaret Forest 24
Bridget Watters 24 Calico Printfield Labourer Lodger b. Ferman, Ireland
Helen Watters 21 Calico Printfield Labourer Lodger b. Ferman, Ireland
Address: No 5 Strathblane Road Mr Glassford's Houses, Milngavie, East Kilpatrick, Stirlingshire
Wondering if the Ferman. on the transcript could also be Fermanagh?
I can't double check the birth place as this entry does does not show on FreeCen. You would need to check the original really to be sure it says this on the original.
Monica
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Not having much luck finding him on the 1841 census ??? and any more family for them
Rosie
Hi Rosie, Thanks for checking, I haven't found any further for 1851 either, although there is a list of Paupers from Out of County and the rest living there seem to be in Nottinghamshire..so guess thats a bit too far away to be our Hugh. (my Uk geography, as I mentioned earlier is terrible, sorry).
Cheers
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On the 1851 census address Bolton Street Govan
Hugh Watters age 23 born about 1828 Formunoch Ireland would think it would Fermanagh
Occupation carter
Isabella Watters age 23 born Riccarton
Mathew Fisher age 24 born Riccarton brother in law
Rosie
Addedwww. freecen,org 1851 census his place of birth County Fermanagh
From Rosie's 1851 census entry for Hugh and Isabella, and the mention of Fermanagh.
I wonder if this other 1851 census entry could be connected to Hugh?:
Edward Purves 24
Margaret Purves 22
Samuel Allardice 29
Margaret Forest 24
Bridget Watters 24 Calico Printfield Labourer Lodger b. Ferman, Ireland
Helen Watters 21 Calico Printfield Labourer Lodger b. Ferman, Ireland
Address: No 5 Strathblane Road Mr Glassford's Houses, Milngavie, East Kilpatrick, Stirlingshire
Wondering if the Ferman. on the transcript could also be Fermanagh?
I can't double check the birth place as this entry does does not show on FreeCen. You would need to check the original really to be sure it says this on the original.
Monica
Hi Monica,
Thanks, it does look like a possible, I'm checking out old maps through NLS to see if the entries for Ferman and Fermanagh are likely the same.
I still haven't found the record that Rosie found for me! I'll see if I can find the original to check out.
Thanks and cheers
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The 1851 census is on Scotland's People as Walters
Reference number 646/4/13 Govan Lanark
On Ancestry as Watters also for on www.freecen.org
Rosie
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The 1851 census is on Scotland's People as Walters
Reference number 646/4/13 Govan Lanark
On Ancestry as Watters also for on www.freecen.org
Rosie
Thanks Rosie, much appreciated.
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Did you check if there was any connection to this James Waters that also lived in
Hawker South Australia he died 1883 ?
Rosie
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Did you check if there was any connection to this James Waters that also lived in
Hawker South Australia he died 1883 ?
Rosie
Hi Rosie, I'm still checking but there doesn't seem to be any direct links yet. Although Hawker is a small town now (it was probably huge in the 1870s). I have a record indicating that Isabella Hugh & daughter Margaret (aged 5) - & on same list a Sarah Fisher (maybe Isabella's sister, their ages line up) but no sign of other Waters or Watters on that list. Having said that I know lots of people came out in dribs and drabs.
I believe that Isabella died 1 Sept 1927 in Adelaide but still checking that.
I know that Isabella & Hugh Waters/Watters' daughter, Margaret Gemmill Waters, married John Cocks in 1872 (Frome District, SA) and their family moved between Coolgardie WA, South Australia and also, Broken Hill / Silverton NSW (at least)...
Thanks again.
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Maybe just a coincidence they were both in Hawker .Trove newspaper has a death notice for Isabella Waters died 31 August1927 in her 100th year at the home of her daughter Mrs M Cocks
12,Darling Street Medindie
Rosie
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Maybe just a coincidence they were both in Hawker .Trove newspaper has a death notice for Isabella Waters died 31 August1927 in her 100th year at the home of her daughter Mrs M Cocks
12,Darling Street Medindie
Rosie
Then this would be the correct Isabella Waters, her daughter was Margaret, widow of John Cocks. Just for your info, I'm uploading a pic of the house at that address, it has obviously been renovated as the pic is from 2019 but interesting none the less! Thanks Rosie.
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Looks very nice obviously been renovated as you said I think this is Hugh Waters on the Glasgow Lanarkshire Electoral Registers 1857-1962
Hugh Waters address 22 Nicholson Street tenant of house and stable 87-89 Abbotsford Lane
His occupation cab driver ,Carter .He is at the same address up to 1859 his occupation matches with his immigration record .Still no luck with the 1841 census which he most probably is still in Ireland
Rosie
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Looks very nice obviously been renovated as you said I think this is Hugh Waters on the Glasgow Lanarkshire Electoral Registers 1857-1962
Hugh Waters address 22 Nicholson Street tenant of house and stable 87-89 Abbotsford Lane
His occupation cab driver ,Carter .He is at the same address up to 1859 his occupation matches with his immigration record .Still no luck with the 1841 census which he most probably is still in Ireland
Rosie
Thanks Rosie, I haven't seen the electoral record at all but yes, the immigration passenger list has "cart." crossed out and "labourer" written after it. All makes sense.
Do you know if there are Irish census records for the 1840s? I haven't found any free records yet and not sure where to look next.
I have been a little sidetracked on Isabella Howie Fisher;'s side I have found a 'random' record where the "Howie" and "Gemmell" connections appears.
Must be off, bedtime here. Cheers.
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There are not many 1841 census records for Ireland I have had a look on what is available but nothing
For free records you can try www,familysearch.org also the freecen which I mentioned .I never seem to have much luck on the early Irish records ..Yes it must be late for you now time for bed :)
Rosie
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There is a will for Hugh Watters on family search if you have not already seen it.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QRH8-LSW2
hmcc
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You might have this death Margaret Fisher other name Gemmel died 1866 Riccarton age 67years
Mothers maiden name Howie
Rosie
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Think we have a possible connection here I found a James Waters on the 1861 census
Address 22,Nicholson Street Govan
James Waters born Ireland about 1819 age 42 ( labourer )
Mary Waters born Ireland age 42
Margaret Waters age 12 born Glasgow
Michael Waters age 5 born England
James Waters age 3 born England
There is also a few lodgers in the household all born Ireland
On the 1855 Valuation Record 1855 James Waters is at Stables 87/89 Abbostford Lane
Same address recorded for Hugh Waters
There is the marriage for James Waters and Mary Jennings 16 /1/1848 Gorbals
Roman Catholic Records banns and marriages 1/ 2 /1848 not sure what information would be on the record but might be worth a view . A tree online has his death 16 December 1864 Main Street .There is a death on Scotland's People for James Waters 1864 Hutchesontown no mothers maiden name on the index
Rosie
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There are not many 1841 census records for Ireland I have had a look on what is available but nothing
For free records you can try www,familysearch.org also the freecen which I mentioned .I never seem to have much luck on the early Irish records ..Yes it must be late for you now time for bed :)
Rosie
Thanks Rosie, I'll continue to check these out. AND,...
.Think we have a possible connection here I found a James Waters on the 1861 census
Address 22,Nicholson Street Govan
James Waters born Ireland about 1819 age 42 ( labourer )
Mary Waters born Ireland age 42
Margaret Waters age 12 born Glasgow
Michael Waters age 5 born England
James Waters age 3 born England
There is also a few lodgers in the household all born Ireland
On the 1855 Valuation Record 1855 James Waters is at Stables 87/89 Abbostford Lane
Same address recorded for Hugh Waters
There is the marriage for James Waters and Mary Jennings 16 /1/1848 Gorbals
Roman Catholic Records banns and marriages 1/ 2 /1848 not sure what information would be on the record but might be worth a view . A tree online has his death 16 December 1864 Main Street .There is a death on Scotland's People for James Waters 1864 Hutchesontown no mothers maiden name on the index
Rosie
Wow, great link between the Valuation record and previous link to Hugh's address. i havent seen valuation records before so good place to follow up some other searches.
ill have a look at those now :)
thanks again :)
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There is a will for Hugh Watters on family search if you have not already seen it.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QRH8-LSW2
hmcc
hmcc, thanks so much for that. I have even passed it on to my mother-in-law as Margaret Gemmill Waters, was her great grandmother. Cheers
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On the 1851 census address Bolton Street Govan
Hugh Watters age 23 born about 1828 Formunoch Ireland would think it would Fermanagh
www. freecen,org 1851 census his place of birth County Fermanagh
From Rosie's 1851 census entry for Hugh and Isabella, and the mention of Fermanagh.
I wonder if this other 1851 census entry could be connected to Hugh?:
Bridget Watters 24 Calico Printfield Labourer Lodger b. Ferman, Ireland
Helen Watters 21 Calico Printfield Labourer Lodger b. Ferman, Ireland
Address: No 5 Strathblane Road Mr Glassford's Houses, Milngavie, East Kilpatrick, Stirlingshire
Wondering if the Ferman. on the transcript could also be Fermanagh?
I'm checking out old maps through NLS to see if the entries for Ferman and Fermanagh are likely the same.
I'm confused!
Are you checking the locations of the 2 Scottish addresses for a possible connection or are you looking for Ferman/Fermanagh, Ireland on maps on NLS (National Library of Scotland)?
Annie
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On the 1851 census address Bolton Street Govan
Hugh Watters age 23 born about 1828 Formunoch Ireland would think it would Fermanagh
www. freecen,org 1851 census his place of birth County Fermanagh
From Rosie's 1851 census entry for Hugh and Isabella, and the mention of Fermanagh.
I wonder if this other 1851 census entry could be connected to Hugh?:
Bridget Watters 24 Calico Printfield Labourer Lodger b. Ferman, Ireland
Helen Watters 21 Calico Printfield Labourer Lodger b. Ferman, Ireland
Address: No 5 Strathblane Road Mr Glassford's Houses, Milngavie, East Kilpatrick, Stirlingshire
Wondering if the Ferman. on the transcript could also be Fermanagh?
I'm checking out old maps through NLS to see if the entries for Ferman and Fermanagh are likely the same.
I'm confused! Are you checking the locations of the 2 Scottish addresses for a possible connection or are you looking for Ferman/Fermanagh, Ireland on maps on NLS (National Library of Scotland)?
Annie
Hi Annie, sorry for the confusion. Both really! I haven't found any option for Ferman or Formunoch apart from them referring to County Fermanagh.
And I have found the entries for Bridget and Helen Watters but I haven't worked out how close geographically they are from Hugh & Isabella Watters and Matthew Fisher in Govan 1851.
I'm also still searching for Irish records for a birth or travel of Hugh Watters/Waters/Walters either alone or in connection with siblings prior to 1851.
Gets a bit mind boggling for me as I don't know the geography so working out how close one entry is (geographically) to another is tricky.
Thanks for the follow up. Cheers.
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Hi all,
While I haven't ordered the certificate, I have also found a record for a
Hugh Watters who married Isabella HOWAT Fisher in Gorbels, Lanarkshire on 18 Jul 1850;
rather than my Hugh Waters and Isabella Howie Fisher who married in Riccarton, Ayr on 16 Aug 1850.
I'm fairly confident mine are the correct Hugh & Isabella as the daughter is Margaret Gemmill/Gemmel/Gammel/Gemmell Waters and Isabella Howie Fisher/Waters' mother was Margaret Gemmel.
I also have unconfirmed records of Margaret Gemmel's mother being a Howie.
I was thinking it could be the same people with spelling errors but Gorbels instead of Riccarton?
A weird coincidence?
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It will be the same couple.
If a couple intending to marry lived in two different parishes they would have to get their banns called in both. This generates two records of the same event.
Look at the originals of both as the information may differ.
There is no certificate as such, because it's before the start of statutory civil registration in 1855.
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Just had a look at the death cert for James Waters and unfortunately the most important info is missing as you can see........
Death:
James Waters
16 December 1864
Hutchestown
119 Main Street
Occupation: hammerman
50 yrs old
married to Mary Jennings
cause of death: meningitis
informant: Mary Waters-wife
the place for the names of parents is totally blank for whatever reason. So no help there.
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Just had a look at the death cert for James Waters and unfortunately the most important info is missing as you can see........
Death:
James Waters
16 December 1864
Hutchestown
119 Main Street
Occupation: hammerman
50 yrs old
married to Mary Jennings
cause of death: meningitis
informant: Mary Waters-wife
the place for the names of parents is totally blank for whatever reason. So no help there.
I thought as much when there was no mothers name recorded on the death index Obviously the person registering the death did not know the names of his parents .The only other record would be the marriage /banns
Rosie
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It will be the same couple.
If a couple intending to marry lived in two different parishes they would have to get their banns called in both. This generates two records of the same event.
Look at the originals of both as the information may differ.
There is no certificate as such, because it's before the start of statutory civil registration in 1855.
Hi Forfarian,
Thanks, I'll check both in case there is other info. :)
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Just had a look at the death cert for James Waters and unfortunately the most important info is missing as you can see........
Death:
James Waters
16 December 1864
Hutchestown
119 Main Street
Occupation: hammerman
50 yrs old
married to Mary Jennings
cause of death: meningitis
informant: Mary Waters-wife
the place for the names of parents is totally blank for whatever reason. So no help there.
I thought as much when there was no mothers name recorded on the death index Obviously the person registering the death did not know the names of his parents .The only other record would be the marriage /banns
Rosie
Thanks Greeneyedgirl and Rosie17.
Dangerous to presume but presuming James and Hugh were brothers re; the same address earlier, is there likely to be a record of their travel from Ireland to Scotland or was this trip too common to be likely to have records?
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It will be the same couple.
If a couple intending to marry lived in two different parishes they would have to get their banns called in both. This generates two records of the same event.
Look at the originals of both as the information may differ.
There is no certificate as such, because it's before the start of statutory civil registration in 1855.
Thanks, have checked the second Hugh and Isabella Watters, states Hugh Watters in Kingston. Isabella Howat Fisher in Rickerton Parish married by Rev'd. (Reverend, I guess).
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Just had a look at the death cert for James Waters and unfortunately the most important info is missing as you can see........
Death:
James Waters
16 December 1864
Hutchestown
119 Main Street
Occupation: hammerman
50 yrs old
married to Mary Jennings
cause of death: meningitis
informant: Mary Waters-wife
the place for the names of parents is totally blank for whatever reason. So no help there.
I thought as much when there was no mothers name recorded on the death index Obviously the person registering the death did not know the names of his parents .The only other record would be the marriage /banns
Rosie
Thanks Greeneyedgirl and Rosie17.
Dangerous to presume but presuming James and Hugh were brothers re; the same address earlier, is there likely to be a record of their travel from Ireland to Scotland or was this trip too common to be likely to have records?
You won't find any records travelling from Ireland to Scotland ..I would take a chance on the RC marriage record for James Waters to see what it says
Rosie
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Thanks, have checked the second Hugh and Isabella Watters, states Hugh Watters in Kingston. Isabella Howat Fisher in Rickerton Parish married by Rev'd. (Reverend, I guess).
Yes.
Kingston is/was an area south of the River Clyde in Glasgow. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.0&lat=55.85267&lon=-4.27003&layers=5&b=1&marker=55.85258,-4.27790 or https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NS5764 and click twice on the map to zoom in. I believe it is in the parish of Gorbals.
Kingston Bridge https://www.geograph.org.uk/stuff/list.php?label=M8+Kingston+Bridge&gridref=NS5764
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Thanks, have checked the second Hugh and Isabella Watters, states Hugh Watters in Kingston. Isabella Howat Fisher in Rickerton Parish married by Rev'd. (Reverend, I guess).
Yes.
Kingston is/was an area south of the River Clyde in Glasgow. See https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.0&lat=55.85267&lon=-4.27003&layers=5&b=1&marker=55.85258,-4.27790 or https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NS5764 and click twice on the map to zoom in. I believe it is in the parish of Gorbals.
Kingston Bridge https://www.geograph.org.uk/stuff/list.php?label=M8+Kingston+Bridge&gridref=NS5764
Hi Forfarian, thanks for the map and bridge links. My geography is continually improving!
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My geography is continually improving!
So is mine :) but I have a long way to go with Australian geography.