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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Olicana on Tuesday 15 November 22 23:13 GMT (UK)
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According to the 1851 census, John Jr Fryar (of Friar/Fryer) was born about 1815 in Strand, Middlesex. Presumably, since he is listed as John Jr, his father was also John Fryar. I would like to find details of his baptism.
I would also like to know if he is on any other censuses. He would have been single on the 1841 census (and maybe living in Lambeth where he married in June 1841), but be with wife Sarah in 1861/71 etc. if still alive (I found a possible death in 1867, but not sure). In 1851, he was a waiter in St Giles, Cripplegate.
Thank you for your help!
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Where do you get the Jr bit from?
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Where do you get the Jr bit from?
From his marriage on 15 June 1841
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Where do you get the Jr bit from?
From his marriage on 15 June 1841
If you’ve seen that Lambeth marriage record (bride was Sarah Harper) you will know that his father was listed as John Fryer, boot maker. Both bride and groom were said to be living in East St at the time of the marriage. The 1841 census date was 6 June, so only a week or so before the marriage.
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There was a John Fryer, waiter, whose death is reported in many newspapers in December 1952. He died of yellow fever aboard the Royal Mail steamship Orinoco on 15 December. 1852.
And there is a John Fryer, waiter, 44, born London, in the 1861 census in Doby Court, St Olave Silver Street, with much younger wife Mary. He is possibly the John Fryer, waiter, who was awarded a medal by the Royal Humane Society in August 1861 for saving the life of Harmond Clayton.
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Is this possibly John Fryer in 1861 with a different wife. Occupation the same as 1851 census. When his daughter Catherine married in 1860 to Charles Hills, John is not recorded as deceased.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-3GXQ
John
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sorry ShaunJ no red box.
John
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If you’ve seen that Lambeth marriage record (bride was Sarah Harper) you will know that his father was listed as John Fryer, boot maker. Both bride and groom were said to be living in East St at the time of the marriage. The 1841 census date was 6 June, so only a week or so before the marriage.
Was the father definitely listed as a boot maker? In the transcription I saw (a few years ago) his occupation was a mason.
I can't find an 1841 census with John and Sarah in East Street. The nearest possibility (very loose though!) I have seen is an 1841 census listing a John Fryer age 25 (so born 1816 - 1820) in New Broad Steet, St Botolph Without Bishopsgate in the household of Micholls family, so presumably a servant. I can't find Sarah Harper in 1841 census or the father John Fryar. It would be nice to find them all listed together in East Street!
Is this possibly John Fryer in 1861 with a different wife. Occupation the same as 1851 census. When his daughter Catherine married in 1860 to Charles Hills, John is not recorded as deceased.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2ML-3GXQ
It's possible, but the census lists his birthplace as Lindsey, Middlesex. Is this near Strand?
there is a John Fryer, waiter, 44, born London, in the 1861 census in Doby Court, St Olave Silver Street, with much younger wife Mary. He is possibly the John Fryer, waiter, who was awarded a medal by the Royal Humane Society in August 1861 for saving the life of Harmond Clayton.
For John to have remarried by 1861, Sarah would have to have died between 1851 and 1861. I can't find any suitable death for her on the GRO. Are there any other details on the life saving incident?
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Lindsey, Middlesex
Mistranscription. It says London.
If we weren't on a lookup board I would post a snip of it and a comparison with another one by the same enumerator. But we are and I can't.
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For John to have remarried by 1861, Sarah would have to have died between 1851 and 1861
It's possible that he and the younger lady were not married.
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Are there any other details on the life saving incident?
He had saved Harmond Clayton, who fell into the New River, Highbury, on the 5th of July 1861.
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Hello
Just to add some details for Sarah
Baptism Downham Market daughter of William and Sarah Harper labourer 6 Dec 1818
Elizabeth 20 April 1817 bricklayer
Mary Ann 30 Dec 1820 bricklayer
John at Stow Bardolph born 12 March 1829 bricklayer mother's maiden name Norman bapt 5th April
William Harper married Sarah Norman 2 May 1816 at Stow Bardolph.
The family are at stow Bardolph 1841 but Sarah is not with them.
William 45 bricklayer y
Sarah 44 N
Henry 15 N
John 12 y
Clarinda 10 y
Mary Aann 20 y
In 1851 their granddaughter Sarah Fryers age 7 born London Bishopsgate is with them
William 56 born Stradsett,Sarah 56 Bath and Henry 23 Stow Norfolk.
Ciderdrinker
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Thank you everyone for your help.
In 1851 their granddaughter Sarah Fryers age 7 born London Bishopsgate is with them
William 56 born Stradsett,Sarah 56 Bath and Henry 23 Stow Norfolk.
I suspect that granddaughter Sarah is actually Catherine Sarah, daughter of John Fryer and Sarah Harper, as I can't find any record pertaining to Sarah's birth. However, Catherine Sarah is in Cripplegate with her parents on 1951 census and age 9 (correctly). Could anyone see the images and check whether Sarah's age has been mistranscribed as 7 please?
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Good Morning
I can't see a birth or baptism for Sarah either but it does say 7.Tried both FindMyPast and Ancestry .No sign of her after that though.
I did spot this on the 1841 for London
Jewin Court St Botoplh Aldersgate Lauderdale buildings
John Friar 55 boot maker N
Catherine 40 N
Elizabeth Day F.S N.
Could Catherine Sarah be named after her two grandmothers?
Just a thought
Ciderdrinker
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Could Catherine Sarah be named after her two grandmother's?
Yes, I wondered that but I think Catherine might be too young to be John Jr's mother.
I tried to find their marriage but without success.
What does "F. S N"after Mary's name mean?
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Could Catherine Sarah be named after her two grandmother's?
Yes, I wondered that but I think Catherine might be too young to be John Jr's mother.
I tried to find their marriage but without success.
What does "F. S N"after Mary's name mean?
Don't forget ages on 1841 are rounded down, so Catherine could be almost 45
There's a burial of a Catherine Fryer in Aldersgate in November 1842. GRO has a death registration in Q4 1842 in East London for a Catherine Fryer aged 46 . This would suggest she was born c1795/6 and would have been about 20 when John Jr was born, which would be very possible
Added: found another record for the burial and it's the same Catherine - address Lauderdale Buildings. Age 45
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And John Fryer of the same address died in April 1843
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Hi
Burial for John Fryer St Boltolph without Aldgate 26 April 1843 age 64 years no 1 Lauderdale buildings
So born 1779.
So Catherine 1797 age 18 when John junior born and John senior 36.
As for marriages there is John Fryer and Catherine Ferriday both St Leonard Fosters 4 .6.1817 London Christ Church Greyfriars
John Fryer and Catherine Keeling 17 July 1814 Potton Bedfordshire -they seem to have moved to St Neots.
John Friar of Oundle and Catherine Wadsworth widow 29 .3.1814 Stoke -Doyle Northants But he is a labourer.And they died in Oundle 1837 and 1833.
They were both born outside the county of Middlesex so could have married anywhere.
I did find a Thomas Fryer s of John and Catherine nee Bryan bapt at a catholic chapel 12.5.1830 .He may be an older baptism as there is a mention of 16 years but it is in Latin and I'm not sure what that means. The chapel is at Moorfields- St Mary.
Ciderdrinker
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I found a baptism on FS for John Fryer with parents Ann and Henry Fryer in Jan 1780 in St Botolph without Aldersgate, which seems to fit. Could anyone look this up to see further details please?
The marriage to Catherine Ferriday also looks a strong possibility since Christ Church Greyfriars was in Aldersgate ward. Are there any further details on this marriage?
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Hello
I had a quick look at the 1817 marriage John Fryer and Catherine Ferriday and it says they are both of St Leonard Fosters and bachelor ,spinster.By banns.
They both signed.
wit W Wooldridge and M Locking
The baptism just gives their address of The Minories.
Ciderdrinker
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Thank you very much. That all seems to fit well.
I have found a possible death for John Fryer (Junior) in 1868:
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in ST MARTIN IN THE FIELDS Volume 01A Page 295
The age at death given is 53, which is correct if we accept the censuses that say he was born in 1815 (still haven't found his baptism), but is the place of death, St Martin in the Fields, reasonable?
I have also found a possible death for John's wife, Sarah FRYER (nee Harper) in 1872:
GRO Reference: 1872 J Quarter in STRAND Volume 01B Page 340.
It gives her age at death as 52. She was baptised in Dec 1818, so she was actually 53. If this is correct, then she was still alive in 1861 when John was apparently living with Mary Fryer. I have been unable to find a death for Mary Fryer.
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There's a burial for the 1868 death in Brompton Cemetery. Date 1 February. Place of death Charing Cross Hospital. Parish removed from - st Clement Dane. Private grave
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That's very interesting, thank you.
Charing Cross Hospital was still in the Strand in 1868 (it moved to Hammersmith in 1973), so was local to the areas where John lived. St Clement Dane was nearby, so this could be a match. Brompton Cemetery seems an unusual choice for burial as it is quite far away. Was Sarah buried there too by any chance?
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Was Sarah buried there too by any chance?
Not that I could find, sorry
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There's a burial for the 1868 death in Brompton Cemetery. Date 1 February. Place of death Charing Cross Hospital. Parish removed from - st Clement Dane. Private grave
May I ask where you found this? I couldn't find John or Sarah on Brompton Cemetery's own site for burials.
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It's on Ancestry - records described as Brompton, London, cemetary registers
The image itself is of a page headed Register of burials in the West of London and Westminster cemetery, Earl's Court. Old Brompton
Fairly sure that's Brompton Cemetery
Added: register no is 51173
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The image itself is of a page headed Register of burials in the West of London and Westminster cemetery, Earl's Court. Old Brompton
Fairly sure that's Brompton Cemetery
Yes, it is. Thank you for your help.