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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: Forfarian on Monday 20 November 23 19:25 GMT (UK)
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I've have come across what appears to be births of two children to the same couple on the same day in two different places, registered in two different subdistricts of Lurgan. See screenshots.
John's birth was registered in Moira and Jane's in what looks like Waringstown. Both give the father's residence as Tullyheron and occupation as weaver.
Has anyone come across anything similar, and does anyone have any idea what was going on?
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Do the records say who registered the birth?
I wonder if it was a misunderstanding in the family. Perhaps the new mother was ill or something and they didn't want to register the birth themselves, so they asked family members to do it and there was a mistake?
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Were there definitely two births - a Jane and a John?
They were registered on different days. Perhaps one was ill and not registered at the same time as the sibling.
However, the two places of birth are different but adjoining townlands.
Maybe as Stanwix says it was a misunderstanding.
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Nearly a month between the registrations. Could it be a mistake as to the sex was made and its the same child? Is there a baptism for either? Any records of either later in life? Maybe one of the children was a daughter's or a child of somebody else and registered as their own child. Why registered in a different district? Is it where the family were not so well known? Just a few thoughts.
Ray
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Sarah stated there are 9 births and 9 children living in 1911.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Down/Magheralin/Ballymakeonan/251559/
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There is a John b 1867
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1867/03478/2278121.pdf
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Do the records say who registered the birth?
Yes, it's on the extracts. The father John Waddell registered both.
I wonder if it was a misunderstanding in the family. Perhaps the new mother was ill or something and they didn't want to register the birth themselves, so they asked family members to do it and there was a mistake?
No, both were registered by the father.
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The couple were married in 1863.
Sarah from Ballymacateer and John - ‘Tullyhearn’.
Births
1865 John - Ballymacateer with father John, Tullyheron.
1865 Jane - Tullyheron
1867 John - Tullyheron
1870 Ann- Tullyheron
1872 William- Ballymakeown
1874 Elizabeth - -do-
1877 Mary -do-
1880 Alexander -do-
1884 Sarah - do-
There is a daughter Maggie, 36 yrs in 1901 . Is she Jane?
If all children survived - why 2x Johns?
If John/Jane are the same person , there is a birth missing.
I assume Mary is Minnie from 1901.
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It looks as if the two clippings are copied from the original. The entries on the full page show different informants, different occupations for the father and different maiden names for the mother. Also the father’s names are different. Possibly an error in transcriptions.
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It looks as if the two clippings are copied from the original. The entries on the full page show different informants, different occupations for the father and different maiden names for the mother. Also the father’s names are different. Possibly an error in transcriptions.
Are you looking at the 1867 page heywood linked to, there are two Waddell births on that one after the other.
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John 1865
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03577/2318438.pdf
Jane
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/birth_returns/births_1865/03577/2318474.pdf
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It looks as if the two clippings are copied from the original. The entries on the full page show different informants, different occupations for the father and different maiden names for the mother. Also the father’s names are different. Possibly an error in transcriptions.
These are copied from the handwritten pages at www.irishgenealogy.ie that Sinann has provided links to. Both give the date of birth as 20 March 1865, father as John Waddell, weaver, of Tullyheron, the mother as Sarah Waddell, formerly Emerson, and the informant as the father. The differences are only the names and sexes of the babies, the address where the births occurred, and the date of registration.
Are you saying that there is another set of originals with different information, and if so where did you find it?
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Looking at the list of children I posted earlier and the census information, please would you look at these.
Maggie - haven’t found a birth but there could have been a birth pre registration maybe?
Marriage 1908 - Minnie Waddell is a witness
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1908/10071/5663178.pdf
Jane Waddell marriage 1897 - Maggie Waddell is a witness
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1897/10441/5802238.pdf
Are these the family we are looking at?
If there is only Jane in 1865 and for some reason there was a mix up, the number of children would fit the census - if Maggie is the other child.
I thought it would work out but Jane is the first registration so there would be no need to ‘correct’ the birth - oh heck!
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My first thought is that one of those children was actually born in 1864 and it was a catch up registration. I have seen plenty of children who were baptised and then their birth registrations claim that they were born much later. John and Sarah clearly did not have fertility problems and they were married in 1863, so claiming that the first child was born 2 years later seems a bit unlikely.
Debra :)
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Similar thoughts, Dundee - that is why I thought the first child would be Maggie born 1863/4 perhaps. However, that doesn’t explain two Johns.
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I have a case where the mother registered a birth, it should have been a son Daniel but was registered as a daughter Jane. Jane was the mother’s name.
If something similar happened here the second John could be Maggie.
Doesn’t explain why the first two were registered weeks apart.
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As has been said. The informant on both per the clippings was father John, a Weaver and mother Sarah, nee Emerson.
The Townland, civil parish and registration sub-district differ but the townlands are adjacent. Ballymacateer, Maralin = Magheralin in Moira Sub-District & Tullyherron, Donaghcloney in Waringstown Sub-District.
This is in the early days of civil registration.Twins should have a time of birth. If it was a correction to the forname and gender it should have been annotated in the margin of the original and that does not fit with the marriages found. Alternatively he realised had only registered Jane on 7 Apr 1865 and not twin John so registered that on 6th May. BUT the father visited a different register sub-office with a different book of births and different Registrar would be my guess. No death before the 1867 birth, however death registration in particular was known to be defective resulting in proceedral revisions 1881. The father John resided in Tullyherron, but the birth/s may have been at the mother-in-laws.
Another small difference is he marked X on Jane's and signed on John's.
I know we are all guessing but why go to the bother of a 'catch up registration' for a pre-1864 birth, or even an 1864 birth, with the same DOB - if anyone needed proof up to that point they consulted the baptism register as was done for some OAP claims after 1908.
All the images on IrishGenealogy are quarterly copies (same as the English ones ordered from Southport) and certified as such at the bottom on loose sheets with handwritten row/entry numbers. GRONI digitised the original bound registers with pre-printed entry numbers (they had no quarterly copies of anything pre-partition). They index 'both' births.
The respective Registrar's made their quarterly copies and the same Superintendent Registrar of Lurgan District, based at the Workhouse, confirmed both were a true copies of entries in their books - which they retained locally until full, then deposited in Lurgan.
7. Facilities for Searches, etc., and Fees.—Certified copies of all entries of births, deaths, and marriages registered each quarter are forwarded to the Registrar-General, General Register Office, Belfast. Those relating to the years prior to 1922 are, however, still in the General Register Office, Dublin. https://www.nisra.gov.uk/sites/nisra.gov.uk/files/publications/1934.pdf
The Townlands within Registration Sub-District maps John Grenham blogs about this month are relevant if zoom in on Co. Armagh then Lurgan https://www.johngrenham.com/blog/2023/11/09/we-still-give-birth-get-married-and-die-under-the-poor-law/
Probably need the baptism and possibly burial registers to confirm the true facts, they weren't baptised Magheralin https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSMW-F4W3-K?i=561 so perhaps Holy Trinity, Waringstown.
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Thought the surnames rang a bell - John possibly had an elder brother William who married Sarah Emerson (with a different father) 1851, but both from the same places https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/images/marriage_returns/marriages_1851/09413/5410193.pdf
A daughter of theirs married gt-gt-granduncle in my tree.
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Thank you :)
That's a lot to digest.
Not sure about John Waddell and William Waddell being brothers - on John's marriage certificate his father is recorded as a weaver, and on William's his father is a farmer. No reason, of course, why it couldn't be the same person but it's not an assumption I would make.
I am interested in all Waddell descendants, if you would be willing to share?
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I havn't a lot to share as really pick up just with daughter Anne Jane (Annie)'s marriage so can post what notes/info I have here.
Marriage a/a 25 Dec 1851 of William Waddell, aged 22, Bachelor (Weaver) of Tullyherrin, parish of Donaghcloney and Elizabeth Emerson, aged 20, Spinster [no occ] of Ballymcteer. Fathers = William Waddell & Thomas Emerson (Farmers). [Baptism Magheralin 20 Jul 1828 Elizabeth Amberson, natural daughter of Thomas Amberson & Anne Nesbit; mother's abode Ballymacateer.]
Baptism 1 Apr 1860, at 1st Lurgan Presbyterian, of Ann Jane, daughter of William Waddell & Elizabeth Emerson of Tullyheron (Weaver); born 24 Jan 1860.
28 Sep 1867 Ballymacateer, Magheralin, Co. Down
Birth of daughter Elizabeth Waddell, father William Waddell (Weaver), mother Elizabeth Amberson.
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Armagh/Lurgan_Urban/Avenue_Road/1024667/
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Armagh/Lurgan_Urban/Avenue_Road/335678/
aged 83, Married 60 years, 4 children, 3 surviving
Widowed 21 Sep 1912. Died 28 Jan 1916 Avenue Road, Lurgan.
children's marriages:
William John Waddell + Eliza Jane Wilson 10 Jul 1880 Moira Presby
Thomas Waddell + Mary Ann Hill 24 Nov 1883 Donaghcloney Pres
Annie Waddell + Richard Wetherall 11 Jul 1884 Moira Presby
Elizabeth Waddell + John Coyle 20 Sep 1899 Lurgan 1st Pres
William John was the deceased child 1911
Marriage 11 Jul 1884 of Richard Wetherall, Bachelor (Lapper) of Lurgan & Annie Waddell, Spinster [no occ]; both of full age of Lurgan. Fathers = Wm John Wetherell (Lapper) & William Waddell (Weaver). Witnesses= Joseph Wetherall & Lizzie Waddell. [all sign]
census + other records via https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/10240521:70667
died 8 Apr 1940 35 George Street, Lurgan interred Shankill Graveyard
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Thanks, Jon_ni, that's great.
Now all I need to do is figure out who all these older William Waddells were ....