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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Noteventhebirdsareupyet on Saturday 09 March 24 21:15 GMT (UK)
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My Grandfather Harold Arthur Forrest was born in 1919 to Harold Forrest and Irene Hardinge. He had a birh certificate stating this and used it throughout his life, presumably to get married, join the army etc. Later on in his life, he posted his birth certificate somewhere (possibly to the DVLA or somewhere similar) and it was lost in the post. He tried to get a copy in order to continue his admin task and recalled that there was an 'A' marked in the top corner. When he called someone (not sure who) to ask if they could issue a new certificate, he was told that they couldn't locate a birth certificate for him and that the A simply meant he was adopted. Now he had no idea that he had been adopted and searched for years with help from the salvation army to trace his roots but he died never knowing the truth about his past.
I am trying to find out more but it is very tough! I have found his marriage certificate, no problem. I have access to censuses when he was a boy, living with Irene Hardinge and Harold Forrest and his brother Peter Forrest. I have found Peter's birth certificate and my great grandfather's (Harold Senior) but for my grandfather there is nothing. I ordered a full copy of his brother's birth certificate and it had Mother: Irene Forrest, Late Hardinge, Formerly Spear. I understand this to mean that she was married prior to marrying my great grandfather and since the marriage was in 1922, 3 years after my grandfather was born it would seem that a man with the surname Hardinge was the father of my grandfather and he died before she remarried. However, I can't find any trace of a Hardinge/Spear marriage, I can't find a birth or census info for Irene prior to her becoming a Forrest. My grandfather's birth is non existant and yet he had a birth certificate with both of the people he knew ad his parents on it and apparently a mark identifying him as adopted. Where on earth could his birth certificate have been registered? If adoption wasn't a concept prior to 1927, how did he come to be adopted and have documentation showing Harold Senior as his Father? I have searched every combination of names and dates for Spear/Hardinge/Forrest and still no trace of my grandfather, my great grandmother or her fist husband have surfaced. Am I missing something glaringly obvious here?!
To muddy the water further, my mother recalls that Harold Senior and Irene had a lodger, an elderly man living in their large home, by the name of Hardinge! Possible Father of a man who married Irene and fathered Harold (jr) and then died? Arghhh I've been at this for weeks and I'm going round in circles!
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Welcome to Rootschat
Have you considered DNA?
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He had a birh certificate stating this and used it throughout his life, presumably to get married, join the army etc.
He wouldn't have needed a birth cert for either of those.
I have access to censuses when he was a boy, living with Irene Hardinge and Harold Forrest and his brother Peter Forrest.
Harold and Irene didn't marry until 1922 and the most recent publically available census is 1921, which 'censuses' are you talking about? Have you found Irene in 1921 prior to marriage?
Debra :)
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Hi Not.....
Is Peter older or younger than Harold?
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Looking at the 1921 census, are you certain that Harold senior's wife is called Irene? She couldn't be called Eleanor, for example.......
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There is no birth under Hardinge either so he was not Irene’s illegitimate son before she married Harold
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My understanding is that if at some point after 1927 Harold Forrest Sr adopted his stepson, the original birth certificate could have been modified.
Given the dates it's possible his birth father was a soldier in WWI and there was no first marriage for Irene.
let's get an timeline here:
1895 (according to 1939 register): Irene born, possibly under name Spear
1919: Harold born, maybe under name Spear or Hardinge
1921 census: ???
1922: Irene marries Harold Forrest, under the name Hardinge or Hardings
1939 register: family are together in St Pancras
The marriage certificate from 1922 will be vital to you finding Irene.
Likely the name was also changed to "Harold" later on.
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Looking at the 1921 census, are you certain that Harold senior's wife is called Irene? She couldn't be called Eleanor, for example.......
Perhaps living at 49 Upper Park Road
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Harold snr & Irene only married 1922. The only document they would appear all together on is the 1939 register.
A wild thought. Could Harold jnr be the illegitimate son of Harold snr? His birth may have been registered under his mothers name. If she died - Harold snr may have brought him up
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Harold snr & Irene only married 1922. What birthplaces are shown for Harold, Irene & Harold jnr on the 1921 census
HAF =Lambeth
HF = Chadderton, Lancashire
EF = St Giles, London
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Potential birth for Harold senior Mar 1894 Oldham 8d 669
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There is a birth in 1919 for a Harold Arthur Forrest Koselj, mother's maiden name Forrest, in Lambeth.
Possible that this child is your Harold, and was actually the nephew of Harold.
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Koselj is quite an uncommon name. There seems to be a marriage to an Elsie Wiegand, and a daughter born in 1917 (and potentially adopted in 1919????)
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Noteventhebirdsareupyet, you say your grandfather tried to get a duplicate copy of his birth cert and went through the Salvation Army etc, but have you actually contacted the GRO? Since 2014 descendants of adopted people have been allowed to ask for the birth/adoption details held by the GRO for their ancestor. It is quite possible that an adoption order was made after 1927 which would then have been reflected in his birth certificate which was lost. Follow this link to see how to go about trying to get details from the GRO: http://www.adoptionsearchreunion.org.uk/search/dap/
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There is a birth in 1919 for a Harold Arthur Forrest Koselj, mother's maiden name Forrest, in Lambeth.
Possible that this child is your Harold, and was actually the nephew of Harold.
It looks to me like Harold only had one surviving sister, Eliza Ann, who would have been 40 years old in 1919. There is no birth registration for Irene that matches details on the 1939 register. It is not impossible that she and 'Eleanor' are the same person.
I wonder if they switched the surnames and KOSELJ was the mother, FORREST the father.
I would start with getting Harold and Irene's 1922 marriage cert to establish an identity for both of them.
Debra :)
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Koselj is quite an uncommon name. There seems to be a marriage to an Elsie Wiegand, and a daughter born in 1917 (and potentially adopted in 1919????)
The daughter is with Henry and Ellen May SPARKES in 1921 and their address is the same as an Elsie KOSELJ who was travelling back and forth between the USA and UK in the 1920s. She claimed to be Serbian.
Husband's USA naturalisation.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89HF-HJZJ
Debra :)
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Oh wow! Totally overwhelmed by your replies and expertise. I will upload the info I have so far and reply to individual comments. Irene and Harold Forrest Senior's birth certificate was ordered 2 days ago, so hopefully I will have more to go on by the end of next week.
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No reason she couldn't be Eleanor. I have no evidence of this but I may have more to go on when I get Irene and Harold's marriage certificate. They doctored the physical copy that my Grandfather had, to show that they were married prior to his birth! I don't have the copy they altered unfortunately.
Both of them lived until the 1960s, so Irene didn't die young and leave Harold Sr to raise him.
Peter was born quite a bit later, December 1926. I have attached a photo of his birth certificate.
It's unlikely that Harold Senior fathered Harold Jr because my Mum reports that Harold Senior was very badly injured in the war and didn't return until 1918, so he wasn't in very good condition!
Where did you get the 49 Upper Park Road info? Interested in looking at that. I'll send more details as and when I find any.
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Potential birth for Harold senior Mar 1894 Oldham 8d 669
Yes this is him.
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Koselj is quite an uncommon name. There seems to be a marriage to an Elsie Wiegand, and a daughter born in 1917 (and potentially adopted in 1919????)
Have we discounted this as a theory? Interesting line of enquiry.
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Welcome to Rootschat
Have you considered DNA?
Going to get my Mum to do a DNA test.
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Noteventhebirdsareupyet, you say your grandfather tried to get a duplicate copy of his birth cert and went through the Salvation Army etc, but have you actually contacted the GRO? Since 2014 descendants of adopted people have been allowed to ask for the birth/adoption details held by the GRO for their ancestor. It is quite possible that an adoption order was made after 1927 which would then have been reflected in his birth certificate which was lost. Follow this link to see how to go about trying to get details from the GRO: http://www.adoptionsearchreunion.org.uk/search/dap/
I haven't been able to give the GRO enough details. They are especially reluctant to help given that the birth was before 1927, even though he could well have been adopted later. Since I don't have the court that issued the adoption or other key details, they won't help.
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Where did you get the 49 Upper Park Road info? Interested in looking at that.
It is from the 1921 census and electoral rolls. The same address is on his service records after discharge.
It's unlikely that Harold Senior fathered Harold Jr because my Mum reports that Harold Senior was very badly injured in the war and didn't return until 1918, so he wasn't in very good condition!
He received his wounds in 1916 and 1917 and was repatriated to England in Jan 1918, discharged in November. He was at the Upper Park Road address in 1919.
Debra :)
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I believe I know who Eleanor was and may be the same person as Irene as I think they have the same day of birth, 24 January, as well as using the name SPEAR.
25 March 1928
Reynold's Newspaper, London
Mr Frederick Arthur PARSONS, decorator, High Holborn, W.C., v Mrs Eleanor PARSONS. He was a boy of eighteen at the time of the wedding, and he soon had to complain about his wife's conduct. They drifted apart and she disappeared for years until discovered to be living with the co-respondent, Harold Forrest in Huddlestone Road, Tufnell Park, North London.
That is all I can see by manipulating the text. In 1928 Harold and Irene were living at 28 Huddlestone Road, Tufnell Park. At the same address was a John Thomas HARDINGE. I believe that Frederick filed for divorce at that time because he wanted to remarry.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8050545
Marriages Dec 1913
PARSONS, Frederick A
SPEAR, Eleanor
Islington 1b 690
Oh what a tangled web ;D
Debra :)
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Well found, Dundee!
I checked the OCR vs the article, and what you posted is the entirety of it, other than the title, "Decrees Granted".
The rest of the article is all the other unhappy couples that obtained a decree.
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Peter was born quite a bit later, December 1926. I have attached a photo of his birth certificate.
Your photo didn't attach... does it give mother's name as Spear, or was it doctored as well?
Births Mar 1927
Forrest Peter D Spear Islington 1b 213
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Oh wow! That's quite a turn up! Thank you both so much. So much more digging to do! I'll try and attach the birth certificate again. No alteration on this one as it's a copy I got from the GRO.
The system says my photo is too large to upload. I'll keep trying.
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At the same address was a John Thomas HARDINGE.
17 Oct 1941
Holloway Press, London
Mysterious Warden Dies
Warden J.T. Hardinge of 28(?) Beverstock Road and Post 4, has died at the age of 88. He had been a Warden for 18 months and had been through all the heaviest raids. He had few friends or known relations and right to the very end held his peace and said nothing about himself. Post Warden Jones who visited Hardinge in hospital said that he spoke very sparcely about himself and was always something of a mystery. A neighbour, Mr R. Duly, told how Hardinge overcame many natural difficulties so that he could carry out his duty. He was cremated yesterday at Pnchley (Finchley?). Four wreaths were sent from Post 4, and one from Post 3.
The GRO has his age as 65 which tallies with his birthdate in 1939, might be the OCR.
Debra :)
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At the same address was a John Thomas HARDINGE.
17 Oct 1941
Holloway Press, London
Mysterious Warden Dies
Warden J.T. Hardinge of 28(?) Beverstock Road and Post 4, has died at the age of 88. He had been a Warden for 18 months and had been through all the heaviest raids. He had few friends or known relations and right to the very end held his peace and said nothing about himself. Post Warden Jones who visited Hardinge in hospital said that he spoke very sparcely about himself and was always something of a mystery. A neighbour, Mr R. Duly, told how Hardinge overcame many natural difficulties so that he could carry out his duty. He was cremated yesterday at Pnchley (Finchley?). Four wreaths were sent from Post 4, and one from Post 3.
The GRO has his age as 65 which tallies with his birthdate in 1939, might be the OCR.
Debra :)
The article does say age 65, so it was the OCR misreading. Same as for the address, which reads 78 Beversbrook-road.
The place of cremation is typed as "Fnchley", so that is both the OCR and a misspelling!
I'm not having any luck so far finding him on the 1921.
Noteventhebirdsareupyet: Don't worry about uploading Peter's birth.... I see from your opening post that "Irene" did put Shear. Could you just post any addresses from it please (both where he was born and the informants)?
Perhaps "Irene" didn't want to put the Parsons name on it, so just "borrowed" Hardinge's name?
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At the same address was a John Thomas HARDINGE.
17 Oct 1941
Holloway Press, London
Mysterious Warden Dies
Warden J.T. Hardinge of 28(?) Beverstock Road and Post 4, has died at the age of 88. He had been a Warden for 18 months and had been through all the heaviest raids. He had few friends or known relations and right to the very end held his peace and said nothing about himself. Post Warden Jones who visited Hardinge in hospital said that he spoke very sparcely about himself and was always something of a mystery. A neighbour, Mr R. Duly, told how Hardinge overcame many natural difficulties so that he could carry out his duty. He was cremated yesterday at Pnchley (Finchley?). Four wreaths were sent from Post 4, and one from Post 3.
The GRO has his age as 65 which tallies with his birthdate in 1939, might be the OCR.
Debra :)
The article does say age 65, so it was the OCR misreading. Same as for the address, which reads 78 Beversbrook-road.
The place of cremation is typed as "Fnchley", so that is both the OCR and a misspelling!
I'm not having any luck so far finding him on the 1921.
Noteventhebirdsareupyet: Don't worry about uploading Peter's birth.... I see from your opening post that "Irene" did put Shear. Could you just post any addresses from it please (both where he was born and the informants)?
Perhaps "Irene" didn't want to put the Parsons name on it, so just "borrowed" Hardinge's name?
Where are people seeing the 1921 census info? I can't seem to access it.
Peter's birth certificate has place of birth 28 Huddleston Road, Islington and the informant is Harold Forrest, Father, 28 Huddleston Road.
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Where are people seeing the 1921 census info? I can't seem to access it.
Peter's birth certificate has place of birth 28 Huddleston Road, Islington and the informant is Harold Forrest, Father, 28 Huddleston Road.
Thanks for the addresses!
The 1921 is only at FindmyPast. Any one can look through the indexes (and purchase individual entries). However, nothing promising at the moment, under Hardinge, Hardings, or Harding.
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I believe I know who Eleanor was and may be the same person as Irene as I think they have the same day of birth, 24 January, as well as using the name SPEAR.
25 March 1928
Reynold's Newspaper, London
Mr Frederick Arthur PARSONS, decorator, High Holborn, W.C., v Mrs Eleanor PARSONS. He was a boy of eighteen at the time of the wedding, and he soon had to complain about his wife's conduct. They drifted apart and she disappeared for years until discovered to be living with the co-respondent, Harold Forrest in Huddlestone Road, Tufnell Park, North London.
That is all I can see by manipulating the text. In 1928 Harold and Irene were living at 28 Huddlestone Road, Tufnell Park. At the same address was a John Thomas HARDINGE. I believe that Frederick filed for divorce at that time because he wanted to remarry.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8050545
Marriages Dec 1913
PARSONS, Frederick A
SPEAR, Eleanor
Islington 1b 690
Oh what a tangled web ;D
Debra :)
Can I order a copy of this court file? It might have a clue or two.
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Can I order a copy of this court file? It might have a clue or two.
Yes, but if you look at the link supplied by Dundee, it has not been digitized. You can request a copy, if you click on the "Request a Copy" button on the right side.
As they have to find it, and print it, they will give you a quote first. It will probably have a copy of the marriage in it as well.
Depending on how much you want to spend on this, you may want to wait for the marriage certificates to arrive, and see if we can get further on them first? Totally up to you!
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I've found a record of the marriage to Parsons. Just signed up to find my past. Eleanor Spear married Frederick Parsons in 1913.
Another record is showing for someone with the name Eleanor Spear marrying someone else in 1911 in Islington. I'm not sure it's her but I'll have a look into it.
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The 1911 marriage was for an Eleanor b c1890, father Lewis Spear (deceased). Spouse George Henry Rich
She's George's spouse on his WWI records, with children b 1913 and 1915, so looks safe to assume she's a different person
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Wow! You were all right weeks ago! My Grandfather was Harold Arthur Forrest Koselj. I had no way of identifying him as such a few weeks ago but I finally received the divorce file yesterday where Eleanor's first husband Frederick caught up with her. It mentions that she gave birth to two sons in her second marriage and there is a handwritten note stating their names. So far, this is the only information I have, I don't believe that Elsie the mother was ever a Forrest. The Father on the certificate is Ivan Koselj. Could the mother have simply lied about having previously been a Forrest, in order to make passing him over to the Forrests a bit easier? Irene/Eleanor has form for making up maiden names, the name Hardinge that she was using appears never to have been hers to use and was borrowed to enable a second marriage to Harold Forrest Senior without a divorce from Parsons.
I can't find any info about Harold Arthur having been adopted. I'm still searching for that piece of information but I am totally shocked that my Grandfather had a sister born in 1917 who he never knew about and now I'm researching all types of people in a haphazard way!
Why on earth would Elsie have traveled to America by ship every year?! What a life. She seemed to travel alone a lot but she's with Charles H Baber on one voyage, whom she later marries. No idea what happened to Ivan at the moment. I thought I was at the end yesterday but it feels like only the beginning!
Thank you all so much for your help.
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Why on earth would Elsie have traveled to America by ship every year?! What a life. She seemed to travel alone a lot but she's with Charles H Baber on one voyage, whom she later marries. No idea what happened to Ivan at the moment. I thought I was at the end yesterday but it feels like only the beginning!
In the early 20's, Elsie voyages were to join her husband, Ivan, who lived in New York. These passenger lists also name her father, with his address, back in England. Just in case you missed it, the incoming lists to America in that era have two pages, so make sure to read her line number so you can match her up on the second page!
Ivan's naturalization papers indicate they have changed their last name to "Kosel". Also they have a daughter named Audrey born 1918.
His obituary names a daughter, Audrey Smith.
Ivan opened a "beauty salon", and apparently became quite well known for it; there is a newspaper photo of him cutting someone's hair.
He remarried in the 60's to a Leona. He died in California.
I'd be more specific with names and dates, but my laptop crashed while I had all the tabs about them open, so this is from memory!
Edited to add: https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-palm-beach-post-kosel-divorce-dismis/145523162/
At some point they must have divorced....there is one more lady he may have married besides the Leona mentioned above (I'll have to find the article again.)
Second edit: https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-peninsula-times-tribune-ivan-kosel-d/145523213/
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https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-brooklyn-daily-eagle-ivan-divorce-ca/145523338/
Bit of a "ladies man" might be an understatement!
From the link, it appears that daughter Audrey resided in England, so perhaps Elsie visited her once a year.
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Sigh! You lot are so much better at this than I am! I can't find that photo of Ivan at all. I'd love to see it. Where abouts do I look? Ancestry.com? It's absolutely fascinating. Thanks for your continued support.
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Is there any way I can upload quite a few pages to a shared file and share it with you lovely lot? The divorce file is if some interest but it's 16 pages long and I can't upload here.
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Sigh! You lot are so much better at this than I am! I can't find that photo of Ivan at all. I'd love to see it. Where abouts do I look? Ancestry.com? It's absolutely fascinating. Thanks for your continued support.
Depending on your subscription, Ancestry does have a basic version of newspapers.com, but very basic, so I don't know if you can find the articles there. At any rate, I'll just toss a few more at you here:
1936
It is not written in such a way to be sure if it is Ivan in this photo (the 1955 link below is him for sure):
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-washington-daily-news-headstands-iva/145542057/
1936
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-commercial-appeal-ivan-kosel-random/145540652/
1938 divorce notice, Elsie in Surrey, England
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-palm-beach-post-elsie-in-surrey/145541329/
1955 photo (article linked below, couldn't clip it all together and have it readable)
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-peninsula-times-tribune-ivan-kosel-p/145540967/
Article with above photo mentions a Mrs. Kosel (not sure which wife!)
https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-peninsula-times-tribune-ivan-kosel-a/145541119/
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In 1932 Elsie arrives on her own - heading to 128 Harbert Road, London SW but leaves a few weeks later with her daughter Audrey. Last address 11 Haymarket
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In 1932 Elsie arrives on her own - heading to 128 Harbert Road, London SW but leaves a few weeks later with her daughter Audrey. Last address 11 Haymarket
Leaves for USA again WITH Audrey?
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Really struggling to find a link between Irene and Harold and the Koselj family. I haven't found any links between Elsie and the Forrests, despite her claiming to have been a Forrest before a Koselj on my grandfather's birth certificate. So frustrating!
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Some of this has already been mentioned by others here, but reposting in a reverse time line will make it easier to follow. As well as the name Forrest, I don't think "Elsie" was an Elsie.
On the Oct 1922 passenger list, Elsie Koselj gives her father as H. Weigand, of 85 Southampton St., Camberwell.
Using an address search for the 1921 census, which can't be discussed (copyright reasons), has her father mistranscribed as "Henry WeiYand", and matches perfectly for the following 1911 census:
1911: Henry Weigand ,is a baker, and married to Lina (Carolina), and he has indicated the first 3 children are from his 1st marriage, and mistakenly says these children are born in Germany, as he was. They are living at 155 Great College St Camden Town London N W, St Pancras.
Jumping back to 1901, Piece 148 Folio 41 Page 18, Henry the baker is with his first wife, Louisa, with children Louisa and May, at the same address as in 1911.
This address is also the one on his citizenship papers at Ancestry, which gives his parents names, if you are trying to work back. Note there is a George "Walter" transcribed as living with them. If you look at the image, I believe it says George Wetter.
This census shows the first two born children, Louisa and May ( transcribed as Louise and Mary) as being born in Pancras.
I believe "Elsie Louise" is actually Louisa Marie Annie. I had hoped her mother was nee Forrest, but no such luck!
WEIGAND, LOUISA MARIE ANNIE WETTER
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 106
WEIGAND, MAY WETTER
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 95
Hopping forward to 1919, Jorose posted (Reply #11) about the birth of Harold Arthur Forrest Koselj.
The details from that are DOB 30 Jul 1919, born at 41 Jeffreys Road, father Ivan Koselj, a journeyman hairdresser of 215 Euston Rd., and mother E. L. Koselj of same address.
41 Jeffreys Rd was apparently a maternity hospital, according this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sarflondondunc/2131043168
I may have missed reading it, but is there an address for Harold's adoptive parents around that time? Maybe they were neighbours?
Edited to add: There is the possibility that Ivan wasn't the real father, and Elsie had an affair with a Forrest while Ivan was in New York? Ivan might not have even known about the baby?
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On Ivan's citizenship papers for the USA, he puts wife Elsie's birthday as 21 Feb 1900. He's a year out, assuming my last post is correct:
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Edited to add[/color]: There is the possibility that Ivan wasn't the real father, and Elsie had an affair with a Forrest while Ivan was in New York? Ivan might not have even known about the baby?
That is what I thought was going on all along ;D I think that Harold Snr is the father of Harold Jnr.
Debra :)
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That is what I thought was going on all along ;D I think that Harold Snr is the father of Harold Jnr.
Debra :)
Yes you did! ;D I wonder if Ivan even knew about it? Or maybe it was the start of their failing marriage.
Rootschat needs a time machine....
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I’ve just been reading through this fascinating thread. Just shows how fabulous Rootschatters are and delighted that Noteven… finally getting some answers. Brings to mind: Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practise to deceive!
Well done everyone.
Pinetree
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On Ivan's citizenship papers for the USA, he puts wife Elsie's birthday as 21 Feb 1900. He's a year out, assuming my last post is correct:
Elsie's DOB seems to sometimes be 1900 and other times 1899, depending on the source.
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Some of this has already been mentioned by others here, but reposting in a reverse time line will make it easier to follow. As well as the name Forrest, I don't think "Elsie" was an Elsie.
On the Oct 1922 passenger list, Elsie Koselj gives her father as H. Weigand, of 85 Southampton St., Camberwell.
Using an address search for the 1921 census, which can't be discussed (copyright reasons), has her father mistranscribed as "Henry WeiYand", and matches perfectly for the following 1911 census:
1911: Henry Weigand ,is a baker, and married to Lina (Carolina), and he has indicated the first 3 children are from his 1st marriage, and mistakenly says these children are born in Germany, as he was. They are living at 155 Great College St Camden Town London N W, St Pancras.
Jumping back to 1901, Piece 148 Folio 41 Page 18, Henry the baker is with his first wife, Louisa, with children Louisa and May, at the same address as in 1911.
This address is also the one on his citizenship papers at Ancestry, which gives his parents names, if you are trying to work back. Note there is a George "Walter" transcribed as living with them. If you look at the image, I believe it says George Wetter.
This census shows the first two born children, Louisa and May ( transcribed as Louise and Mary) as being born in Pancras.
I believe "Elsie Louise" is actually Louisa Marie Annie. I had hoped her mother was nee Forrest, but no such luck!
WEIGAND, LOUISA MARIE ANNIE WETTER
GRO Reference: 1899 M Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 106
WEIGAND, MAY WETTER
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in PANCRAS Volume 01B Page 95
Hopping forward to 1919, Jorose posted (Reply #11) about the birth of Harold Arthur Forrest Koselj.
The details from that are DOB 30 Jul 1919, born at 41 Jeffreys Road, father Ivan Koselj, a journeyman hairdresser of 215 Euston Rd., and mother E. L. Koselj of same address.
41 Jeffreys Rd was apparently a maternity hospital, according this:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/sarflondondunc/2131043168
I may have missed reading it, but is there an address for Harold's adoptive parents around that time? Maybe they were neighbours?
Edited to add: There is the possibility that Ivan wasn't the real father, and Elsie had an affair with a Forrest while Ivan was in New York? Ivan might not have even known about the baby?
Thanks so much for all this info. I've been trying to access records from the maternity hospital but I'm not sure there are any patient records available.
Eleanor/Irene and Harold were living in Upper Park Road around that time Harold was there in 1919 and Irene is there in 1921. Not neighbours, half an hour bus journey. Not far though , possibly they knew each other.
I feel like I should just be happy with the info I have but that loose end of "Elsie Koselj previously forrest" and the fact that the families seemed wealthy enough to support a second child makes me wonder why they would have given him up but kept Audrey the sister in the family. Ivan not knowing about the child and there being another father seems likely but I'm trying to work out how on earth I prove that.
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Just to muddy the waters further. I've just seen on Elsie/Louise's naturalization papers that she is also know as Elsie castle. Another line of enquiry.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/discoveryui-content/view/5039131:2499?_phcmd=u(%27https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/?name=Louise+_Koselj&event=_England&birth=1900&successSource=Search&queryId=4f2089fd-da5e-409c-a7f5-45fdb25831d5%27,%27successSource%27)
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Perhaps Elsie was trying to make Kosel sound less "foreign", and used Castle? Who knows!
I was wondering if children weren't part of their lifestyle.... they didn't go to New York right away. The 1922 passenger list and both of their citizenship papers said they had been living in Paris, France. Ivan loved the Hollywood scene, and a few news-clips have him acting in plays. Perhaps they just wanted to be part of the rich and famous set, and children didn't "fit in".
They said on the citizenship records that they came on the ship Aquitania. You can see Elsie on the incoming passenger list, but on the UK outgoing list, she is crossed out (usually means they didn't board). Ivan isn't on either list, unless he is hiding under another name.
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But why keep Audrey if they didn't want the commitment of children? Maybe a second child was just too much for them. Elsie was certainly a young mother, albeit not for the time.I've got a digital image of Harold Arthur Forrest's birth certificate but I'm awaiting the full copy from the GRO, which I'm hoping might reveal something, possibly the person who registered the birth. If it was Ivan then that removes the idea that he never knew of the birth.
Was it common practice to add the surname of a prospective adoptive couple as a middle name for a child intended for adoption?
I am struggling to get the adoption certificate for Harold Arthur Forrest because I have no idea when he was adopted. He had a birth certificate later in life with only Irene and Harold on it with an 'A' in the top corner, which he was informed meant that he was adopted. But when that was issued is a mystery. The GRO will only search a year after and a year before the date you give them, so given that he would have been formally adopted sometime between say 1926 and say 1935 (when they suddenly realised Harold would need a copy of his birth certificate??) I can't be precise enough for the GRO.
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The info I posted on the first birth registration was from a digitized copy from the GRO, see attached.
In a formal adoption, there should be an indication on the original. There is nothing. Mind you, an amendment should have been noted.
Audrey has two registrations as well, amending the name of her mother.
From FreeBMD
Births Dec 1917
Weigand Audrey E Weigand Marylebone 1a see MCH 1919
Births Mar 1919
Weigand Audrey E Weigand Marylebone 1a 575
From GRO
WEIGAND, AUDREY ELSIE - no mmn
GRO Reference: 1917 D Quarter in ST. MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 647 Occasional Copy: A
KOSELJ, AUDREY ELSIE WEIGAND
GRO Reference: 1919 M Quarter in ST. MARYLEBONE Volume 01A Page 575
I think some of us are thinking, at the moment, that there may not have been a real adoption, the child was a result of an affair with Mr Forrest, and given to Forrest to raise. As to why keep Audrey; I think it would be much harder to part with a child you were raising, especially when it ties your husband to you, as opposed to a baby that might end your marriage Just my thoughts... nothing concrete as of yet. People attracted to the life of adventure, fame and fortune, have a different mindset than us "regular" people!
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What has confused me since the start though is that he did have a birth certificate and it certainly wasn't the one on the GRO. He used it throughout his life and it was lost in the 1990s when he sent it to an insurance company to prove his DOB! If he had never lost it, none of this would ever have been discovered. He presumably called some government record holding office and described it to them . They then informed him that an A at the top meant he had been adopted. There must be a copy somewhere of this, unless it was an outright fake. But again, why add an A to mean adopted if they were creating a fake?
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Sorry, I thought you were after the real birth reg., not a copy of the one he had.
Do you recall if the birth date/ place were a match to the one I posted?
Heading off now, but I can poke around more tomorrow.
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Was Harold junior ever in the military (thinking WW2) if so might this have been when he obtained the birth certificate he always used and could his service record provide any more clues?
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Sorry, I thought you were after the real birth reg., not a copy of the one he had.
Do you recall if the birth date/ place were a match to the one I posted?
Heading off now, but I can poke around more tomorrow.
I very much was after the one I've got, at the beginning but now I would like the other one too, if possible! I think what I'm really searching for now is confirmation of birth father, the link between the Koseljs and the Forrests and some sort of motivation for giving him up for adoption but I know I'm just being emotional and I'm unlikely to find the answers to these things without diaries/personal letters etc.
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Sorry, I thought you were after the real birth reg., not a copy of the one he had.
Do you recall if the birth date/ place were a match to the one I posted?
Heading off now, but I can poke around more tomorrow.
I very much was after the one I've got, at the beginning but now I would like the other one too, if possible! I think what I'm really searching for now is confirmation of birth father, the link between the Koseljs and the Forrests and some sort of motivation for giving him up for adoption but I know I'm just being emotional and I'm unlikely to find the answers to these things without diaries/personal letters etc.
Sorry I missed your question. I never saw the birth certificate he used but he always said he was born in Camberwell, so it's the same area.
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Was Harold junior ever in the military (thinking WW2) if so might this have been when he obtained the birth certificate he always used and could his service record provide any more clues?
Yes for many years. He was in India and Burma quite a bit. I am not good at searching the military records but that's a really good idea. Where has the best/easiest place to search? I'm on find my past and ancestry.com at the moment.
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I’m pretty hopeless with military research although there as other Rootschatters that are really good.
This advice on the National Archives site might help
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/second-world-war/
Pinetree
I did have a Quick Look on Ancestry and FindMyPast without success but that may well be down to my lack of expertise
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Here's what I know about his time in the military after asking family:
I believe he was in the Royal Artillary and was also part of the British Expeditionary Force in France, prior to war breaking out. He enlisted some time around 1939, possibly earlier. He was in France, Mauritius, India (in 33rd Indian Corps). Also in Burma and he was a Sergent by the end of his career.
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Hi
WW2 records are still with the MOD at the moment but are in the process of being transferred over to the National Archive.
If he was in the artillery his service number may have been 959051 as there is a recod on FindMyPast for a Harold Arthur Forrest who joined up in 1939. This is in the follwoing collection of documents
"Royal Artillery Attestations 1883-1942"
Unfortunately it doesn't say much more but if you have his birth date and service number your Mum can try to get his service record.
Nesta
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Here's the link to trace Military records
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service (https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service)
Good luck
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Here's the link to trace Military records
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service (https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service)
Good luck
Thanks so much.
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@bbart I've just been informed that he believed he was born in Hampstead and they later lived in Camberwell.