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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: garlands on Monday 17 June 24 14:51 BST (UK)
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In 1911, Anne HILLS (nee ROBERTSON) gives her age as 69 (i..e. b 1842) and her birth place as Perth. Earlier census returns either give no birth place or state simply 'Scotland'.
Her husband was Henry HILLS (b Suffolk ca 1836) and the earliest child I have found was Annie, born in Kent in 1865, so I assume they married sometime prior to that. Henry was not in the family home in 1961. At some point, Henry either joined the Army or worked for the Army, and the family lived in Kent, Ireland, Lancashire and Hampshire.
When, and where, did Anne and Henry marry?
When, and where, was Anne born?
If anyone can help answer those questions, I should be most grateful.
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In the interests of preventing duplication of effort, see previous thread with information about the same people https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=883465.0
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There's a marriage of Ann Robertson to Edward Hills in Edinburgh St George in 1863. Hills isn't all that common a name so maybe this isn't just a coincidence.
Could this be they? Did Henry Hills maybe have another name, or did someone make an error?
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See Scottish 1861 census for Ann Robertson b 1843 Perth - parents Alexander & Catherine
EDIT
Probably not same - no Elizabeth b 1853 in household
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1891 & 1901 has a nephew Charles Ketteridge b Sheffield 1874 - have you already checked whether he is connected to the Robertson side? His 1874 birth reg as Charles William shows mmn Robertson
Have you noticed she is Ann Maria Hills in 1891?
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The 1905 marriage cert for Charles William Kettridge shows his father as David - occ soldier & deceased at the time of that marriage. Another transcription shows his mother as Elizabeth Robertson
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1871 for an unmarried David Kettridge b Horseheath Cambridge 1841 - soldier at Kent Barracks
Freebmd - 1873 marriage in Kent for David Ketteridge & Elizabeth Robertson
1881 Elizabeth Ketteridge b 1853 Scotland - widow. David died Farnham 1875
1911 Elizabeth is shown as b Perth
1853 birth on SP has parents as Alexander & Catherine nee Menzies. However they only married 1850 so can’t be Elizabeth’s parents unless it was a second marriage for Alexander
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Hmmm.
There are five Ann Robertsons aged 18 in the burgh of Perth in the 1861 census.
(1) Ann, kitchenmaid in the household of John Walker, born Logierait. Probably daughter of Alexander R and Anne Canacher, baptised 30 August 1842.
(2) Ann, granddaughter in the household of John Paton, born Perth. Probably the daughter of Thomas R and Ann Patton, baptised 8 July 1841 in Kinnoull. This couple also had a daughter Elizabeth, baptised 2 August 1843 (not 1853)
(3) Ann, daughter in the household of Alexander Robertson and Catherine ? This is probably Catherine Young; no record of Ann's baptism or of a sister Elizabeth, but brother George baptised 1852 and sister Catherine in 1854
(4) Mary Ann, scholar, boarder in the household of Isabella Gairns, born Caputh. Probably not the daughter of William Robertson and Janet Souter, baptised 9 June 1844, as the same couple had another daughter named Mary Anne baptised on 27 May 1845
(5) Mary Ann, daughter in the household of James Robertson and Helen, possibly Helen Constable Shewster, born Perth. This is the only one with a sister Elizabeth in the same household, aged 9. No baptism records but if it's the right Helen there's a brother Alexander in 1842 and a sister Margaret in 1844
It won't have escaped you that the only one of these whose age, if she is the right person, is definitely accurate is (1), so maybe there's a need to do a similar exercise for Ann Robertsons aged 17 and 19.
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I'd recommend getting the 1873 Ketteridge marriage cert to check her fathers name/occupation
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A tree on Ancestry shows Elizabeth's parents as Charles & Ann nee Brough. It also shows Ann Robertson as a half sister to Elizabeth
Makes no sense as the Robertson/Brough marriage was 1833??
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A tree on Ancestry shows Elizabeth's parents as Charles & Ann nee Brough. It also shows Ann Robertson as a half sister to Elizabeth
Makes no sense as the Robertson/Brough marriage was 1833??
Well, it is Ancestry - I wouldn't expect it to make sense. But it's worth looking at.
According to the OPRs at SP, Charles R and Ann Brough had two sons, Charles in 1834 and Andrew in 1836.
The family are in Perth in 1841: Charles, 35; Ann, 30; Charles, 6; Andrew, 4; Mary, 3; James, 1; plus John Brown, 6 months and Esther Paul, 11.
In 1851 (surname spelled Roberson) there are Charles, 49; Ann, 36; Charles, 17; Andrew, 15; Mary, 13; Ann, 10; Cathrine, 7; James, 11; Jean, 4; and Margret, 1.
They are also in Perth in 1861: Ann Brouch, married, 46; Charles, 27; Margaret, 10; Elisbath, 8; and grandson Andrew Glasgow, 3. Charles senior wasn't with his wife and the youngest members of his family.
So there is an Ann, but if she was really 10 in 1851 she was born in 1840/1841, not 1843; and a full sister Elizabeth, born 1852/1853. It's quite possible that this is your Ann Robertson.
As suggested, you really need to get Elizabeth's marriage certificate to find out her father's name and occupation.
Also take a look at that marriage in Edinburgh in 1863. In fact, do that first, because if it's her it will name both her parents, unlike Elizabeth's English certificate which will cost you more and tell you less.
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Well, you've certainly given me plenty to digest and follow-up. Thank you. I'll keep you posted.
As an aside, I enjoyed Forfarian's comment on Ancestry. I never could get on with it when I was a volunteer at my local library; I was always much more comfortable with FindMyPast!
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Carole,
Re Reply #4
I cannot find another instance of the surname KETWIDGE; I think your KETTERIDGE is much more likely, and the rest of your research would seem to confirm that.
I've looked at the original of the '81 Census, and have to agree with the transcriber, so I can't post a correction. I think the enumerator probably did his best with what he'd been told, but got it slightly wrong. I'm going with KETTERIDGE; do you agree?
George
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Accepting that Elizabeth (nee ROBERTSON) is the mother of Charles KETTERIDGE, and that she is a sister of Anne, a search for a ROBERTSON family in Perthshire in 1851 has yielded only one result, viz:-
James ROBERTSON Head b 1805 Auchterarder
Ann do Wife b 1810 Trinity Gask
Ann do Daughter b 1841 Crieff
James do Son b 1843 do
Charles do Son b 1845 do
Elizabeth do Daughter b 1848 do
Harry do Son b 1851 do
I think this is 'my' Ann and her parents. Is that OK?
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No, it's not OK. You are making an assumption which is not correct.
There is another family in Perthshire in 1851 and 1861 with a daughter Ann and a daughter Elizabeth of roughly the right ages.
In my last post I investigated the family of Charles R and Ann Brough.
The family are in Perth in 1841: Charles, 35; Ann, 30; Charles, 6; Andrew, 4; Mary, 3; James, 1; plus John Brown, 6 months and Esther Paul, 11.
In 1851 (surname spelled Roberson) there are Charles, 49; Ann, 36; Charles, 17; Andrew, 15; Mary, 13; Ann, 10; Cathrine, 7; James, 11; Jean, 4; and Margret, 1.
They are also in Perth in 1861: Ann Brouch, married, 46; Charles, 27; Margaret, 10; Elisbath, 8; and grandson Andrew Glasgow, 3. Charles senior wasn't with his wife and the youngest members of his family.
Not being very good at being kept in suspense, I shelled out 5 credits for the marriage certificate of Ann Robertson and Edward Hills in 1863. This tells me that Edward Hills, 29, Bombardier Royal Artillery, 46 Cumberland Street, Edinburgh, son of Henry Hills, butcher, and Hannah Hills, maiden surname Davidson, married Ann Robertson, 22, domestic servant, 10 Saxe-Coburg Street, Edinburgh, daughter of Charles Robertson, sawyer, and Ann Robertson, maiden surname Brougham.
As this information tallies exactly with the other information about this couple apart from the groom's given name and '-am' being added to the end of the bride's mother's maiden surname, I am pretty sure that this is your Ann Robertson.
However to clinch it you must get Elizabeth's father's name and occupation from her English marriage certificate.
The family in Crieff is that of James R and Ann(e) Davidson. I have found no trace of them after the birth of their daughter Mary in Crieff in 1857 and I wonder if they might have emigrated.
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I must be missing something. Apart from not having the correct father's name, none of the 3 families in your quote has daughters named Elizabeth and Ann. That combination would seem to rule them out.
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I must be missing something. Apart from not having the correct father's name, none of the 3 families in your quote has daughters named Elizabeth and Ann. That combination would seem to rule them out.
Charles ROBERTSON married Ann BROUGH 26 Apr 1833 Perth
Sons Charles (1834) and Andrew (1836) have baptism records in Perth.
Other children : Mary (abt 1838), James (abt 1840), Ann (abt 1841), Catherine (abt 1844), Jean (abt 1847), Margaret (abt 1850), Elizabeth (abt 1853)
It looks as if the father Charles died before 1855.
1841 census ROBERTSON (as noted by Forfarian)
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/60ea4baaf493fd786325bcd9/andrew-robertson-1841-perthshire-perth-1837-?locale=en
Elizabeth Roberton married David Ketteridge in 1873
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:CXFH-Z56Z
Marriage record may not give her father’s name.
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Henry HILLS married Sarah Ann DAVIDSON 23 Dec 1828 Norfolk
Henry appears in the census as a “thatcher”.
Children:- Thomas Henry 1832, Henry 1834, William James 1837, Robert Davidson 1839, Hannah Elizabeth 1842, James 1844, Charles 1845, Davidson 1848, Edward 1850.
Sarah Ann died in 1853 (age 44)
In 1855 Henry HILLS (widower) married Charlotte SKIPPER
Children :- John James 1856, Frederick 1858
Henry HILL junior was with the Royal Artillery and was pensioned on 20 May 1879. He obviously did well, having reached the rank of Serjeant.
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I must be missing something. Apart from not having the correct father's name, none of the 3 families in your quote has daughters named Elizabeth and Ann. That combination would seem to rule them out.
Yes, you are missing something and no, it doesn't. It is all the same family in different census years, not 3 different families.
They have Ann in 1851 and Elisbath in 1861.
Elizabeth hadn't been born by the 1851 census so naturally she isn't with her parents and sister Ann in 1851.
In 1861 Ann is a domestic servant in Edinburgh, so she doesn't appear with her parents and sister Elizabeth in 1861.
Please, please get Elizabeth's marriage certificate as that could be the key to the whole thing.
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I'll happily get Elizabeth's marriage certificate. I assume you mean1873 to David KETTERIDGE?
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I'll happily get Elizabeth's marriage certificate. I assume you mean1873 to David KETTERIDGE?
Yes. If it says that her father was Charles, a sawyer, then I think that would be the clincher.
If not, then it's back to the drawing board.
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Certificate ordered.
Despatch date (est): 25th June
but don't hold your breath - last cert. I ordered took 3 weeks!
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I'm all agog! :)
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Whilst we await the Mills of God (sorry GRO) to grind out their reply, might I re-iterate my other query?
Anne's husband was Henry HILLS (b Suffolk ca 1836) and the earliest child I have found was Annie, born in Kent in 1865, so I assume they married sometime prior to that.
At some point, Henry either joined the Army or worked for the Army, and the family lived in Kent, Ireland, Lancashire and Hampshire.
When, and where, did Anne and Henry marry?
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I think that this is Henry in 1861:-
St Cuthbert's, North Leith (Leith Fort)
Unmarried; aged 26 (i.e. b 1835); birthplace England
Driver, Royal Artillery
That all fits with what we already knew, and explains why he is missing from the family home in Mildenhall, Suffolk.
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I've looked for the marriage of Anne ROBERTSN & Henry HILLS in FindMyPast, Scotland's People and Family Search, all to no avail. Where else can I look?
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You appear to have missed, and not read thoroughly, a number of replies.
Forfarian posted information about the marriage some time ago. See reply 14.
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No, but can Edward HILLS really be Henry HILLS?
In the few years around 1865 I have found more HILLS - ROBERTSON marriages than you can shake a stick at, but, no Henry HILLS.
I accept that there are many similarities between 'Edward' and 'Henry', but are they enough for us to say the official record is wrong?
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I've looked for the marriage of Anne ROBERTSN & Henry HILLS in FindMyPast, Scotland's People and Family Search, all to no avail. Where else can I look?
FindMyPast, FamilySearch etc have indexes to the original records that are at Scotland's People. Therefore if it's not on SP it's not going to be on any of those web sites (and they don't have all the original documents in any case). It's not like the USA or Australia, for example, where some sites have some of the information and others have different batches of records.
From 1855, it was compulsory to register all marriages that took place in Scotland. All marriage records are held by Scotland's People and all are available on the Scotland's People web site. There is nowhere else to look for marriages in Scotland after 1855, and trying any of these other sites is just wasting your time.
See https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714261.0
If they married somewhere other than Scotland, you could try https://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl for England and Wales or https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/ for Ireland.
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I accept that there are many similarities between 'Edward' and 'Henry', but are they enough for us to say the official record is wrong?
I believe so.
But wait until you see what Elizabeth's marriage certificate tells you about her father's name and occupation. If he is Charles and something like a sawyer, that means that that is the correct marriage for Anne, and therefore that Edward and Henry are the same person.
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Thanks for both your replies. I shall wait (impatiently) for the certificate to arrive.
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No, but can Edward HILLS really be Henry HILLS?
You have the birth of Henry to parents Sarah Ann Davidson and Henry Hills
You have the same parents named on the 1863 marriage record in Edinburgh.
You also have the Davidson name given to one of Henry’s sons in 1871
You have the 1861 census which finds Henry in Edinburgh in the Royal Artillery.
You have on the 1863 marriage in Edinburgh record that Edward (Henry) was in the Royal Artillery
You have the whole family in 1871 in the Royal Artillery camp in Kent.
You have at least 8 children’s births where Henry is recorded as with the Royal Artillery.
You have a military record showing Henry being pensioned out in 1879 from the Royal Artillery.
You have his sister-in-law marrying someone in the same regiment.
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I accept all your points, which prove beyond all doubt that Henry HILLS really was Henry HILLS, but do they prove that Edward HILLS was actually Henry HILLS? Or should we accept Sherlock Holmes's mantra that "having eliminated all possibilities, whatever is left must be the solution"?
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I think that those of us who have worked for many years on original documents and have become accustomed to the incidence of errors in the original records will by now by pretty sure that Edward is an error for Henry.
When Elizabeth's marriage certificate arrives, be sure to let us know what it says.
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I certainly shall
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Just received Marriage Certificate:-
26th March 1873 in the Parish Church of Cheriton, Kent
David KETTERIDGE, 30, Bombardier R A of Shorncliffe, father William KETTERIDGE, Labourer
Elizabeth ROBERTSON, 20, of Cheriton, father Charles ROBERTSON, Sawyer
Witnesses: H HILLS
S G TAYLOR
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Excellent!
That now confirms Elizabeth parentage, and therefore that of her sister Anne, so I think that there can be no further doubt that Edward is an error for Henry.
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Forfarian.
Agreed. Your persistence has paid off. Thank you for all your hard work.
Now, how best to record the error? My FH software (RootsMagic10) offers me 'Alternate Name' or 'Namesake', neither of which seems to me to fully cover the situation.
Or, do I simply ignore it?
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Depends what the software you are using will take. I'm not familiar with RootsMagic.
I would use Henry throughout and just put a note in the 'notes' field that his marriage certificate names him as Edward.
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Sounds like a good idea. I'll see what I can do
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I think it's now time to pull down the shutters on this thread, so I propose to mark it 'topic complete' in the next few days, unless anyone can think of a reason not to.
Thank you all very much for the time you have devoted to it and for your invaluable help.
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Keep it open.
Great result and enjoyed all the experts at their best and watched with great interest.
I too have a Robertson of Perthshire in query in motion, but no known connection to this post.
Being open means a 'cousin' or interested party may want the thread to continue.
Well done.
Cheers
Jack Gee
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If you think that would be useful, it's O K by me.
I'll leave it open.
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I've been re-visiting this problem and fretted over my inability to locate the family in '51, only to find that Forfarian had done the job for me back in reply #10!!!!
A belated 'thank you' to Forfarian
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As advised ..
You appear to have missed, and not read thoroughly, a number of replies.
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Both!