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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Smudger1962 on Sunday 06 April 25 18:02 BST (UK)
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For many years we have been unable to find out anything about my 2nd Great Grandfather Neil McIntyre before he arrived in Sunderland from Scotland. On his police force enlistment papers he gives his birth place as Argyllshire. On all the census records I had found previously as Scotland. I started looking at this again this week and found him on the 1871 census (previously not seen) imagine my excitement when there is a birth town shown. Unfortunately I can't read it. I have tried to search for towns in Argyllshire that it could be with no luck, Ancestry gives it as Ubal but as far as I can see there is no such town. Can anyone help.
Any help greatly appreciated.
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Who, where, & when did he marry? I can’t see him in England in 1851 or 1861. If he married in England after 1837 his fathers name will be on his marriage cert which may help
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It could be Ulva in Argyll and Bute
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1851 has a Neil MacIntyre 39 unmarried - Scottish law agent - living in Middlesex
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Might it be an attempt at Islay?
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Who, where, & when did he marry? I can’t see him in England in 1851 or 1861. If he married in England after 1837 his fathers name will be on his marriage cert which may help
1851 Neil McIntyre Bishopwearmouth (Sunderland) age 29 sergeant of police married to Mary Holmes
1861 Neil McIntyre Police Station Monkwearmouth (Sunderland) must have been on Duty Age 40 Inspector of Police Now married to Jane Booth
On his marriage cert to Mary (1842) His father is shown as Alexander a farmer.
On his marriage cert to Jane (1859) his father is shown as Deceased.
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Scotlands People website:
Ulva.
Records for Ulva
An island to the west of Mull, in the parish of Kilninian and Kilmore, and the county of Argyll.
There are some birth records (1803-1825), father Alexander McIntyre and mother Dorothy (possibly McDonald), but not for Neil. His DOB c. 1812 fits though.
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Scotlands People website:
Ulva.
Records for Ulva
An island to the west of Mull, in the parish of Kilninian and Kilmore, and the county of Argyll.
There are some birth records (1803-1825), father Alexander McIntyre and mother Dorothy (possibly McDonald), but not for Neil. His DOB c. 1812 fits though.
That's very Interesting because I thought from his daughters names that his mother may have been called Dorothy can you talk me through what you searched to see that.
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Scotlands People website:
Ulva.
Records for Ulva
An island to the west of Mull, in the parish of Kilninian and Kilmore, and the county of Argyll.
There are some birth records (1803-1825), father Alexander McIntyre and mother Dorothy (possibly McDonald), but not for Neil. His DOB c. 1812 fits though.
That's very Interesting because I thought from his daughters names that his mother may have been called Dorothy can you talk me through what you searched to see that.
You have to register (free) on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-records
Once you've registered you search church records - births and baptisms https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-records/church-registers/church-births-baptisms
Select the Church (default is Church of Scotland)
Type Surname McIntyre
Gender Both
Year Range (leave it)
County/City All
Parish/Congregation scroll down and choose Kilninian
Click Search
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I'm glad my guess - reply #2 seems to be a good match
It could be Ulva in Argyll and Bute
Gadget
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I'm glad my guess - reply #2 seems to be a good match
It could be Ulva in Argyll and Bute
Gadget
Yes it's looking interesting I'm just trying to look at the records now.
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Scotlands People website:
Ulva.
Records for Ulva
An island to the west of Mull, in the parish of Kilninian and Kilmore, and the county of Argyll.
There are some birth records (1803-1825), father Alexander McIntyre and mother Dorothy (possibly McDonald), but not for Neil. His DOB c. 1812 fits though.
That's very Interesting because I thought from his daughters names that his mother may have been called Dorothy can you talk me through what you searched to see that.
You have to register (free) on https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-records
Once you've registered you search church records - births and baptisms https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/search-records/church-registers/church-births-baptisms
Select the Church (default is Church of Scotland)
Type Surname McIntyre
Gender Both
Year Range (leave it)
County/City All
Parish/Congregation scroll down and choose Kilninian
Click Search
I see those now. That's tantalising but no Neil. I also think that he had a brother called Alexander. I can't be 100% but on 1841 census Neil is living in what looks like a hostel in church street Sunderland maybe he had just arrived. There is also an Alexander Mcintyre living there. a few days before Neil Joins the local police force, Alexander Joins, I think that they must be brothers but could be cousins.
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What's Alexander's age in this census record?
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What's Alexander's age in this census record?
There is something odd on the census records both of them are shown as 20 but didn't they round ages up and down on the 1841 census? on the police admission records Alexander is shown as being aged 28 Neil is shown as 26.
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Yes, I think so. Maybe this is a good sign, if they were brothers that age gap is perfect.
I couldn't find a death record for Alexander McIntyre (father) but the 1851 Census shows Dorothy McIntyre, aged 72, and in the same household Alexander, aged 0 and Dorothy, aged 2.
542/ 1/ 4
Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon
Argyll
Flory (daughter of Alexander McIntyre and Dorothy) married Alexander McQuarie. This is their daughter
MCQUARIE
DOROTHY
ALEXANDER MCQUARIE/FLORA MCINTYRE FRMRV79-1
F
04/05/1844
544
20
Kilninian and Kilmore
MCQUARIE
DOROTHY
ALEXANDER MCQUARIE/FLORY MCINTYRE
F
04/05/1844
544
20 / 65
Kilninian and Kilmore
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There is something odd on the census records both of them are shown as 20 but didn't they round ages up and down on the 1841 census? on the police admission records Alexander is shown as being aged 28 Neil is shown as 26.
In the 1841 census, the age of persons over 15 was supposed to be rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5. For example, a person aged 19 would be listed as 15, a person aged 22 would be listed as age 20, and a person age 59 would be listed as 55.
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Yes, I think so. Maybe this is a good sign, if they were brothers that age gap is perfect.
I couldn't find a death record for Alexander McIntyre (father) but the 1851 Census shows Dorothy McIntyre, aged 72, and in the same household Alexander, aged 0 and Dorothy, aged 2.
542/ 1/ 4
Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon
Argyll
Flory (daughter of Alexander McIntyre and Dorothy) married Alexander McQuarie. This is their daughter
MCQUARIE
DOROTHY
ALEXANDER MCQUARIE/FLORA MCINTYRE FRMRV79-1
F
04/05/1844
544
20
Kilninian and Kilmore
MCQUARIE
DOROTHY
ALEXANDER MCQUARIE/FLORY MCINTYRE
F
04/05/1844
544
20 / 65
Kilninian and Kilmore
I must have looked at the census record before as it was available for me to view. again tantalising particularly now that I can see that Neils father died between 1842 and 1859.
I'm struggling to decipher the other record though I can see John son of Alexander McQuarrie Tailor and of flory Mcintyre was married.?? Married to Who? or am I on the wrong page.
If only I could Link Neil everything else looks perfect.
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I can see the two sons named James (b. 1840 and 1842) and one Dorothy (b. 1844)
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John was under mother Flora...
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I'm not sure what the code FRMRV79-1 means, but I googled it and it seems to refer to Ulva.
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I'm thinking that this is very likely to be the place and this is very likely to be the family just don't know why Neil is not shown.
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I have researched other Scottish families and there are many records missing from the Scotlands People website, so don't give up!
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I won't and thanks to everyone for the help. it may be that a couple of days in Scotland are on the cards see if I can physically search those registers. I'll have to make enquiries. Edinburgh is only a couple of hours from me :) I might also try and trace Alexander his brother on the census records see if anything pops up. Sometimes just a relative visiting or the name of a place can get you going again.
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Do you have a date of death for his first wife, Mary?
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Do you have a date of death for his first wife, Mary?
Yes She died in Bishopwearmouth (Sunderland) 23 Sep 1856
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So this is her
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLSQ-XLQT?lang=en.
Neil's death (have you checked if this has any information on his place of birth?)
DEATH OF AN EX-POLICE Te «.. INSPECTOR. 8 death is announced of Mr Neil McIntyre, former member of the Sunderland
... DEATH OF AN EX-POLICE Te «.. INSPECTOR. 8 death is announced of Mr Neil McIntyre, former member of the Sunderland borough — force, Mr McIntyre joined the force as a on July 17th, 1840. He was made a Se nt in August, 1846, sub-inspector on | ber 11th, ...
Published: Monday 17 August 1891
Newspaper: Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette
County: Durham, England
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So this is her
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QLSQ-XLQT?lang=en.
Neil's death (have you checked if this has any information on his place of birth?)
DEATH OF AN EX-POLICE Te «.. INSPECTOR. 8 death is announced of Mr Neil McIntyre, former member of the Sunderland
... DEATH OF AN EX-POLICE Te «.. INSPECTOR. 8 death is announced of Mr Neil McIntyre, former member of the Sunderland borough — force, Mr McIntyre joined the force as a on July 17th, 1840. He was made a Se nt in August, 1846, sub-inspector on | ber 11th, ...
Published: Monday 17 August 1891
Newspaper: Sunderland Daily Echo and Shipping Gazette
County: Durham, England
Yes that's her. She was the daughter of another policeman (Neil's Boss :)) She was also Born in Scotland born Kilwinning 1821. her mother was Scottish and her father was English they moved back down here and he joined what I think was the first intake of a formal police force. The police watch committee records are a gold mine of information. Except in Neil's case what I really need to know.
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You'll get there ;D
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His death record on FreeBMD says he was 70 in Sep 1891. So... DOB 1812 or 1821?
One possible chistening record - different parish
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYZN-9RD
Vital • Scotland, Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
Name McIntyre
Sex Male
Father's Name Alexander McIntyre
Father's Sex Male
Event Type Christening
Event Date 17 Feb 1820
Event Place Kilmallie, Argyll, Scotland, United Kingdom
"Kilmallie Parish originally extended from Loch Arkaig to Kinlochleven and was understood to be the largest geographical parish in Scotland.(sixty miles in length and thirty miles in extreme breadth), partly in the County of Inverness and county of Argyll.
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Another possible sons of the couple (not found in the Scotlands People dadabase), Robert McIntyre who emigrated to Canada, and Hugh McIntyre.
http://www.mullgenealogy.co.uk/mullsearchwb_m.asp?indv_no=33049
No idea if it's his father...
Reverend Alexander McIntyre (Coll) and Mr. J. McDonald (Ulva) - 1868-1878
https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/digital-volumes/ordnance-survey-name-books/argyll-os-name-books-1868-1878/argyll-volume-73/26
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Children of Neil McIntyre and Mary Holmes
Follow a traditional Scottish naming pattern
• Alexander (named after Father’s father)
• Benjamin (named after Mother’s father)
• Dorothy (named after Father’s mother)
• Sarah
• Mary Eleanor (named after mother’s mother)
• John
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Children baptised of Alexander McIntyre and Dorothy (McDonald surname only recorded once)
Kilninian and Kilmore
• Margaret 1799
• John 1803
• James 1805
GAP in records – missing baptisms
• Flory 1811
• Mary 1815
GAP in records – missing baptisms Robert abt 1817, Neil abt 1821, Alexander & Merion
• Anne (Nancy) 1825
It is quite common for parish records to be incomplete – never recorded or records lost.
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1841 Census: ULVA Ardskipinish Gometra
(Ardskipinish is a place on the island of Gometra, a small island in the Inner Hebrides of Scotland, located west of Ulva)
MACINTYRE Robert M 25 Crofter born Argyllshire
MACINTYRE Dorothy F 60 born Out of County
MACINTYRE Mary F 20 Female Servant born Argyllshire
MACINTYRE Merron F 15 born Argyllshire
MACINTYRE Nancy F 14 born Argyllshire
MACINTYRE John M 9 born Out of County
MACINNES Alexander M 15 Agricultural Labourer born Argyllshire
It looks as if the father Alexander is deceased by 1841 census, but that detail not included on Neil's marriage.
1851 census Gribun, Mull - Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon
Dorothy MacIntyre 72 born Ross - Tenant 500 Arable 20 Ac Hill Pasture
Robert MacIntyre 34 son born Ulva
Cathrine MacIntyre 23 daughter-in-law born Kilninian
Dorothy MacIntyre 2 grand-daughter born Gribun
Alexander MacIntyre 1 mth grand-son born Gribun
A number of the children, including the sons Alexander and Robert, and daughter Flora, went to Canada. All three appear to end up in the same Grey County, Ontario - surely not a coincidence. It is possible they travelled together, or soon after each other, arriving in Canada between 1852 and 1855. Flora died there in 1855.
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I'm not sure Alexander was Neil's brother. According to some census records in England (still waiting for Smudger's confirmation) his place of birth shows as Glasgow, Lanark.
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I'm not sure Alexander was Neil's brother. According to some census records in England (still waiting for Smudger's confirmation) his place of birth shows as Glasgow, Lanark.
Alexander McIntyre (Farmer)
His marriage as a widower in 1873 Grey, Ontario, names his parents as Alexander and Dorothea.
1861 Canada census
http://data2.collectionscanada.gc.ca/1861/pdf/4391552_00016.pdf
1871 Canada census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D1W9-6J4?view=index&action=view&cc=1554429&lang=en
1881 Canada census
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MVF5-4HR?lang=en
1871 Canada Census for Robert McIntyre and family
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M47X-99X?lang=en
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According to Smudgers...
" I also think that he had a brother called Alexander. I can't be 100% but on 1841 census Neil is living in what looks like a hostel in church street Sunderland maybe he had just arrived. There is also an Alexander Mcintyre living there. a few days before Neil Joins the local police force, Alexander Joins, I think that they must be brothers but could be cousins."
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Yes PatLac - I have read the thread. :) I have seen the census records.
Alexander McIntyre is an extremely common Scottish name.
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I'm not sure Alexander was Neil's brother. According to some census records in England (still waiting for Smudger's confirmation) his place of birth shows as Glasgow, Lanark.
Wow a lot to pick through here. Re Alexander, I too am now wondering if he was Neil's brother. the 1851 ,61 and 71 show a Alexander McIntyre living in Tynemouth/North Shields on one he is shown as born Glasgow? but he is a labourer not a policeman. When I originally researched the police watch committee record books I followed Neil not Alexander and I am now wondering if Alex left the police. I will have to go back to Tyne and Wear archives to check that. it looks like the Alex on these census returns married Mary Fell in 1848 and Mary died in 1850. If he did leave the police I could send for the marriage cert to get his fathers info. (I didn't see a ref to Lanark Just Glasgow)
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After Mary Fell's death, Alexander married again in 1852 to Mary Ann Ray and had many children. His occupations are labourer and grocer. He died in 1914.
I'm thinking that the best candidate is the one who died in 1848... I'm trying to find some more information about him, but if you don't get anything from the police archives, maybe it's a good idea to buy his death certificate.
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According to the newspaper notice on Neil's death, he joined the police force in 1840 "Mr McIntyre joined the force ... on July 17th, 1840", so his DOB would be 1814 and Alexander's 1812.
If this is right, Alexander McIntyre d. 1848 age 36 in Durham/Lanchester is probably him.
PatLac, Please review your mathematics.
Alexander's year of birth was around 1821.
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Mathematics isn't the problem here...
Quite right - numerous problems. You seem confused between Alexander and Neil, and you are looking at only 1 census record in isolation.
However, I will leave you to it, before this thread gets even more ridiculous.
I was trying to help Smudger1962.
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Deleted as requested by Gadget and Neale. No worries.
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I agree with Neale and think it might be best to allow smuddger time to read all the information that has been given so far.
Gadget
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Deleted
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Smudger, I have sent you a PM with my latest findings. Cheers, Pat
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Children of Neil McIntyre and Mary Holmes
Follow a traditional Scottish naming pattern
• Alexander (named after Father’s father)
• Benjamin (named after Mother’s father)
• Dorothy (named after Father’s mother)
• Sarah
• Mary Eleanor (named after mother’s mother)
• John
Yes Neale All correct and Sarah was named after mothers grandmother.
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Children baptised of Alexander McIntyre and Dorothy (McDonald surname only recorded once)
Kilninian and Kilmore
• Margaret 1799
• John 1803
• James 1805
GAP in records – missing baptisms
• Flory 1811
• Mary 1815
GAP in records – missing baptisms Robert abt 1817, Neil abt 1821, Alexander & Merion
• Anne (Nancy) 1825
It is quite common for parish records to be incomplete – never recorded or records lost.
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1841 Census: ULVA Ardskipinish Gometra
(Ardskipinish is a place on the island of Gometra, a small island in the Inner Hebrides of Scotland, located west of Ulva)
MACINTYRE Robert M 25 Crofter born Argyllshire
MACINTYRE Dorothy F 60 born Out of County
MACINTYRE Mary F 20 Female Servant born Argyllshire
MACINTYRE Merron F 15 born Argyllshire
MACINTYRE Nancy F 14 born Argyllshire
MACINTYRE John M 9 born Out of County
MACINNES Alexander M 15 Agricultural Labourer born Argyllshire
It looks as if the father Alexander is deceased by 1841 census, but that detail not included on Neil's marriage.
1851 census Gribun, Mull - Kilfinichen and Kilvickeon
Dorothy MacIntyre 72 born Ross - Tenant 500 Arable 20 Ac Hill Pasture
Robert MacIntyre 34 son born Ulva
Cathrine MacIntyre 23 daughter-in-law born Kilninian
Dorothy MacIntyre 2 grand-daughter born Gribun
Alexander MacIntyre 1 mth grand-son born Gribun
A number of the children, including the sons Alexander and Robert, and daughter Flora, went to Canada. All three appear to end up in the same Grey County, Ontario - surely not a coincidence. It is possible they travelled together, or soon after each other, arriving in Canada between 1852 and 1855. Flora died there in 1855.
Again Neale this looks very likely to be the family. It would also mean that there is no baptism shown for Robert either. Maybe just the way of things. Where did you find the information about Canada? Oh and I've just seen what FS referred too :)
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Sorry Neale Forget my Canada question (I need to read ahead)
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According to the newspaper notice on Neil's death, he joined the police force in 1840 "Mr McIntyre joined the force ... on July 17th, 1840", so his DOB would be 1814 and Alexander's 1812.
If this is right, Alexander McIntyre d. 1848 age 36 in Durham/Lanchester is probably him.
PatLac, Please review your mathematics.
Alexander's year of birth was around 1821.
Yeah I have 11 Documents showing his age 8 of the show him born 1821/1822 with three showing slight variations.
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Thanks for all of this help. Outstanding. great community. Agree I need more time to pick the bones out of it. Im starting to think that its unlikely that I'll find Neil's Baptism, but, in the spirit of not leaving any stone unturned I will try and establish what happened to the other McIntyre that joined up with him by re reading the police books at the Tyne and Wear Archives. Just a little story which illustrates things that are sent to frustrate us. When my older cousin started this process many years ago he was quizzing my grandmother about her grandfather Neil. Oh wait a minute she said there is book with his tartans here somewhere and a portrait painting of him. Of she goes to look while my Granda sits in silence. When she can't find them he finally admits that he got sick of them lying around and burned them on the bonfire in the back garden. Oh My!!
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This perhaps explains why a young man would have moved from a small Hebridean island at that time. Perhaps he arrived in Sunderland via a journey by sea.
Ulva has suffered significant population decline since the 1800s. In 1837 it had a resident population of 604 people living in 16 villages. By 1841 the combined population of Ulva and the neighbouring island of Gometra had been reduced to 150 due to evictions during the Highland Clearances and the effects of the Highland potato famine.
from https://www.ulva.scot (https://www.ulva.scot)
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Thanks Alan
Just saw the website you linked to literally 20 mins ago Haven't had a chance to study yet. certainly looks very likely that the Highland clearances would be the catalyst for the move. I also found a Facebook page relating to the genealogy Mull and the surrounding islands. I've sent a request to view. may be another source of information. Cheers
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Smudger,
If you want and when you have the time, British Newspaper Archive has a lot of free newspaper's articles relating to Ulva and some mention Mr. M'Intyre.
The island was owned by Colonel Macquarrie (different spellings) and was put for sale between 1819 and 1825.
Regarding your ancestor, he declared himself 50 in 1864.