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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: cazza59 on Tuesday 04 August 15 06:39 BST (UK)
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Well, you asked for it. :P
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Another.
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If anyone would like any specific areas magnified or if I've missed any area, just let me know and I'll scan it.
Caz
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A couple of thoughts.
All the chimneys seem to have cowls fitted, this suggests a windy position.
White stains on the seat and parts of the roof, seagulls or pigeons.
A third one, the direction the arrow on the weather vane suggests again that the prevailing wind, south west, is at the bottom left of the photo.
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I wonder what breed the dog could be?
Serious question. I wonder if the house could be on a "sporting" estate, Hunting, shooting, fishing and remote?
Is the dog a working Gun Dog?
Are there any clues as to date? It seems to have been taken by a good quality camera.
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Is the post on the Lawn for playing some game that was fashionable at that time?
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Is the post on the Lawn for playing some game that was fashionable at that time?
I think that it was mooted that the post was for a tennis net.
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That post has intrigued me all along, Scouse Boy. I too wondered about some game played on lawns, e.g.croquet.
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Why are some of the window frames white, and some dark (brown?) ? Is that a stylistic/decorative thing or have some of the windows been replaced?
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Oh I hadn't noticed that Spidermonkey. Well spotted.
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I think these points have been raised on previous thread, but if not -
Lots of open windows - either a fresh air freak, a Very Hot Day, or it is a TB Sanatorium
Lots of venetian blinds - not sure what can be concluded from that
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I think the fact that all the windows are open lends its self to the idea that it is being used as as some sort of institution where it is part of the routine to air all the rooms. If it was a hotel, it would probably be left to individuals to open them. Either that, or it belongs to a rich family and servants have opened them!
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When we used to watch "Upstairs Downstairs" I seem to recall that they would all spend six summer weeks in their "Summer retreat" out in the rural country.
This could be one of those "Summer House Estates" for a wealthy M.P or business man or person?
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Are there any clues as to date? It seems to have been taken by a good quality camera.
I think this is why most have plumped for a date in the 30s-40s rather than earlier. The image is sharper on the paper. Not from any knowledge, just a sense that improvements on film happened just as they do in todays digital world.
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I had a bit of a look at ebays Hampshire Postcard site yesterday and nearly wet myself when I saw the first link
http://www.alton-dfas.hampshire.org.uk/vol.html
But looking at the same place as a picture sure let the air out of my tires
https://comestepbackintime.wordpress.com/2013/02/12/gilbert-white-the-parson-naturalist-of-selborne-hampshire/
I continued to concentrate on Hampshire for a few reasons. I do think the property is south of London rather than north. I also think the Scots Pines have a sense of place. I looked at a few places. New Forest caught my eye and I had a look around there and came up with this one
http://www.hospitalityandcateringnews.com/2015/05/bramble-hill-hotel-new-forest-market/
I don't think it is it but it does show the style that seems to be more prevalent in the south
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/181820655447?clk_rvr_id=878424460646&rmvSB=true
Keep looking I guess. Might concentrate on the weather vane. Would you believe I found a site with over 10,000 photos of all types of weather vanes. The internet!!
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Not home at the moment, but will post the notes Ruskie collated from the other thread later on.
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............................. nearly wet myself when I saw the first link ............................
;D ;D ;D
I know that feeling, every time I find one with a little pyramid shaped roof somewhere on it I'm the same ;D ;D ;D
Frank.
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I continued to concentrate on Hampshire for a few reasons. I do think the property is south of London rather than north. I also think the Scots Pines have a sense of place. I looked at a few places. New Forest caught my eye and I had a look around there and came up with this one
http://www.hospitalityandcateringnews.com/2015/05/bramble-hill-hotel-new-forest-market/
What a lovely house, but I can't believe that it is described as a gamekeeper's lodge! If that is the lodge, what must the main house have been like?! :o
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Why are some of the window frames white, and some dark (brown?) ? Is that a stylistic/decorative thing or have some of the windows been replaced?
I think it's a decorative thing which could possibly date the photo as late as the 1950/early60's. At least I remember our windows being cream and dark green, as were my doll's house windows.
I notice there is some sort of shading on the greenhouse which adds weight to a south facing aspect.
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I am wondering if there are any clues as to location in the patterning of the tile hung exterior. Regional styles or variations perhaps?
Some investigation is in order I think. ;)
Added: The closeups are smashing Caz. :)
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Having another look at the glasshouse I think it s a glasshouse
Looks like plant life in there and not bodies ;D
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I am wondering if there are any clues as to location in the patterning of the tile hung exterior. Regional styles or variations perhaps?
Is this what you were thinking?
http://civilconstructiontips.blogspot.com.au/2011/06/slate-and-tile-hanging-walls.html
In positions of very severe exposure to wind driven rain, as on high open ground facing the prevailing wind and on the coast facing open sea, it is necessary to protect both solid and cavity walls with an external cladding. The traditional wall cladding is slate or tile hanging in the form of slates or tiles hung double lap on timber battens nailed to counter battens. Slate hanging has generally been used in the north and tile in the south of Great Britain. Either natural or manufactured slates and tiles can be used.
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I am wondering if there are any clues as to location in the patterning of the tile hung exterior. Regional styles or variations perhaps?
Some investigation is in order I think. ;)
The shingle clad tower again just screams South Downs.
http://www.wealddown.co.uk/buildings/bell-frame-stoughton/
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Yes dg that is what I was thinking of.
I thought of tile hanging as more a fashion than serving a real purpose so interesting to read your findings.
A mention here:
http://www.freepedia.co.uk/DIRHomesTileHungWalls.php
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Do the roof tiles look a bit wobbly?
You can almost see the shape of the roof battens in places. Makes me wonder if the building is older than it looks .... :-\
Maybe attention was paid to updating the frontage, bays etc but not so much with the roof?
Or is that the (rough) nature of clay roofing tiles? :-\
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There is also some odd patching of the wall tiles.
Is it worth looking at the brick work - can we determine a pattern? It looks as if there are 5 rows of stretchers, then a single row of headers, then a single row of stretchers and then my eyes go crossed and I lose count ::)
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http://www.buildingconservation.com/articles/hangingtiles/hangingtiles.htm
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Is it worth looking at the brick work - can we determine a pattern? It looks as if there are 5 rows of stretchers, then a single row of headers, then a single row of stretchers and then my eyes go crossed and I lose count ::)
It looks like some form of English garden wall bond ... but different. ::)
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Do the roof tiles look a bit wobbly?
You can almost see the shape of the roof battens in places. Makes me wonder if the building is older than it looks .... :-\
Maybe attention was paid to updating the frontage, bays etc but not so much with the roof?
Or is that the (rough) nature of clay roofing tiles? :-\
I seem to remember that in the original thread there was a suggestion that the house had been extended at some stage, and you're more or less saying that here. Personally, I'm not so sure...
My understanding of the arts and craft movement (which we think this belongs to) is that there was a conscious effort to reproduce typical English vernacular buildings with all their quirks. So, although these reproductions were very well planned and designed, they may have incorporated features to make them appear as though they had grown organically over the years. In this case, the materials and weathering seem pretty consistent across the main house, so I'm inclined to think it was all built at one go.
The building behind the glasshouse is another matter. Is it much larger, or just on higher ground? It also looks quite a bit newer. But what is it? And would answering that help us identify what kind of group of buildings this is, and thus narrow down the precise ID?
All comments welcome, especially as to whether I am right about the arts and craft MO.
Arthur
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Arthur - I agree re the Arts and Crafts movement style. I think the two tone windows are integral to the design.
I was also looking at the building behind which has a half-hip or clipped gable and does appears to be a completely different scale - more like a barn or function area
Kay
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There appear to be two buildings behind the glasshouse. One of them has got a window on the sloping roof. Are they known as "roof lights" or something else?
I have an idea that may be stables with living accommodation over on the next floor for grooms, stable lads etc.
No sign of Electric cables supplying the property, therefore was it before the date of domestic electric supplies?
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There appear to be two buildings behind the glasshouse. One of them has got a window on the sloping roof. Are they known as "roof lights" or something else?
I would call them velux windows, but I guess that velux is a trade name for a type of roof light/sky light.
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I can see the points made about Arts and Crafts architecture but have been unable to find any examples that incorporate a random sash window, markedly different stile chimney stacks, different style bay windows etc, so I still feel this is a much extended, much altered older house. Happy to be proved wrong ;D
I think the tiles also suggest southern England - Sussex and Kent Peg tiles have the look of the tiles on the roof. probably hand-made hence the waviness. Those for the tile hanging look newer and possibly machine made to me.
The brick work, such as you can see of it seems to vary to me.
Jan
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I may be talking out of my backside :P but on the 'front' house, the wall tiles are two different styles, laid in a pattern. On the 'set back' house, the tiles are mostly squared off tiles except for a couple of areas where it looks like they have patched bits.
Also, the brick work on the external chimney breast of the front house is different to the patterning of the set back house.
Like I said, though, I'm probably talking out of my posterior!! :-*
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Is it worth looking at the brick work - can we determine a pattern? It looks as if there are 5 rows of stretchers, then a single row of headers, then a single row of stretchers and then my eyes go crossed and I lose count ::)
It looks like some form of English garden wall bond ... but different. ::)
It's Scottish Bond apparently. Although not all the building is the same.
Jan ;)
I agree with you Spidermonkey. What you say, that is, not that you're talking out of your posterior :D
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I may be talking out of my backside :P
;D ;D
And maybe I am too but from day one I have always thought picture 12a 2 to be a signal box............
Whether connected to the building is another ???
Annie
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A bit of an aside, but there is an interesting blog here by an amateur architectural historian. http://thecountryseat.org.uk/
By the same author, there is a website dedicated to lost country houses with a full list here (if anyone has a spare day or two ;)) http://www.lostheritage.org.uk/lh_complete_list.html
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Hi all,
I've spent days and days looking through old newspaper adverts for houses.
Some of them have pictures, some just descriptions, but I thought this one matched Cazza's house quite well - Walmer, Kent.
It was dated 1929.
I managed to find out the house was originally called "St Mildred's" but try as I might, I can't find a picture of it.
This site mentions the house - http://www.walmerweb.co.uk/history/walmer-walk-circa1890.html
I've looked at the "Britain from Above" site for Walmer, but can't get enough detail.
Also found a good OS map, but when overlaying, it looks like the house has long gone .....
I can see where I think the house is, the steps down to the lawn, but the shape of it is all wrong.
I'm NOT saying it is the house - and without a photo it seems hopeless. :(
Unless anyone can find what I couldn't .....
Yorkslass
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I couldn't find a picture of St Mildred's Walmer either, but while looking I wondered if it might be a small prep school or similar. Take a look at these:
http://www.yateleymanor.com/Prospective-Families/News-and-Events/Photo-Gallery/Photo-Gallery.aspx - photo no. 13 in the gallery
http://www.holmegrange.org/our-school/
I don't think either of them is right, but if nothing else, do they suggest the search area should be extended? (For those who haven't followed the links, the buildings have some similarities to Cazza's house, but are in Yateley and Wokingham - NE Hampshire and Berkshire.)
Arthur
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Yorkslass - not sure whether you are thinking it is the same house as I am :-\ following the walmerweb discription, I've got the house between St Marys Road and Castle Road, the east elevation running N-S?
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sidebyside.cfm#zoom=17&lat=51.2028&lon=1.3947&layers=176&right=BingHyb
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I think so Spidermonkey.
The "overlay" map at the bottom of the page here shows new houses, but called St Mildred's Court.
As I said, the house on the 1898 OS map doesn't have the same outline as I would expect.
Though I guess it could have changed in 20-30 years.
I was encouraged by the number of conifer type trees around the area too.
http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.2022&lon=1.3955&layers=176
Looking at the Google Street View at the back of the new St Mildred's Court, there are a couple of windblown looking conifers behind ...
But as I say, it's only a possible ::)
Yorkslass
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By the same author, there is a website dedicated to lost country houses with a full list here (if anyone has a spare day or two ;)) http://www.lostheritage.org.uk/lh_complete_list.html
Spent many a moment trawling through this one. Great site but it can leave you heartbroken to read why they were demolished. Fires etc you can accept , but most of the reasons given are due to '' disrepair due to lack of funds' etc. 1 or 2 were removed to make way for bigger( or smaller) and so much was lost.
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I know - there was a lovely country house that was demolished to make way for an office block......... :'(
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Using St Mildreds as a possibility a search of Walmers web page shows an old citizen describing Walmer. In it she mentions Leelands school moving various times , once to St Mildreds ( a big red building with a tower - at the back of St Marys Church
Here are some pics of Leelands and other places ( if I had the time I would look for the book these pics came out of)
http://www.walmerweb.co.uk/history/history-upperwalmer-1920s-1930s.html
(http://www.pictorialgems.com/public/upload/productimage/47130-50984-4.jpg)
St Clares
(http://www.walmerweb.co.uk/history/st-clare-school-main-building-001med.jpg)
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Viewing this picture of St Marys Church Walmer doesn't give much back view so I wonder what distance there was between
http://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XD136236/St-Marys-Church-Walmer?img=33&search=Walmer&bool=phrase
And here we get , not only a picture of the Strand Walmer way down the page, we get genealogy of the Muddles ;D
http://www.muddlefamilies.info/harrietsham/23ja.htm
Further looking finds this - pick your eyes over this
(http://www.oldukphotos.com/graphics/England%20Photos/Kent,%20Walmer,%20The%20Glen%20in%20the%20mid%201950's%20and%20the%20church.jpg)
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Like most people I have been looking at Edwardian/ arts & craft houses, but I have just been reading about Queen Anne revival architecture which was from the same period, the end of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century.
Some of the distinguishing features of this period were tile hung walls, bay windows and towers or turrets.
Architects who were active at this time were William Eden Nesfield. J J Stevenson and R Norman Shaw.
This is a house designed by W Eden Nesfield, look at the gables.
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Good evening,
Well done Cazza, the close ups are a great help. We can now see that there is about 50 ft from the back of the house to the large building at the rear. Looking at the greenhouse and the size of glass it is about 12ft wide.
Behind that is I think the potting shed with a small fireplace with an external chimney. Looking at the bottom of it we see that the ground level is roughly 2ft, 2ft 6in higher than the house.
The larger building is higher still, it has no chimneys so not residential.
The trees show that the prevailing wind is from the left but on the day was blowing in the opposite direction. As shown by the flag style windvane which the wind will always push away leaving the arrow pointing to where the wind has come from.
The "tower to the rear can now be seen to be another chimney but much larger so maybe from a larger fireplace in the principal reception room (inglenook?)
The seagull/pigeon poo may just be marks on the photo as they don't appear to be streaked.
The post is a tennis net post, the other will be just to the left rear of the photographer. If it was for croquet it wouldn't be quite so tall and would have coloured bands for each colour of ball.
As for the dog, what dog, I don't see one anywhere.
John915
PS going to the High Wycombe/Oxford area tomorrow so somewhere different to watch.
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Dog is halfway along photo 11 ;)
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There are a few postcards of The Glen, Walmer here. Can anyone pick out anything useful?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/walmer
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So many responses since I last visited this thread, so just a few initial comments before I re-readto catch up properly:
I agree that roof tiles may be uneven due to being hand made, however due to differences in chimney styles, brickwork etc I believe this house was added to at various stages throughout it's history. I think there are three different chimney styles visible.
The house with the gable has a glazed window with curtains so I believe it is inhabited. The brickwork appears to have been clad or stuccoed. This may imply an inferior brick was used so this is obviously a 'lesser' building. There is an awning on the right side of that building (similar to those on Cazza's house) at ground floor level, possibly over either a front or back door. There is also a small brick building or lean-to slightly beyond the awning, and an open door which could be a door to a garden or an out house.
It is difficult to judge distance to know if this is a neighbour's house or part of this property. Caz's house is large but not enormous so I am unsure how much staff would be employed post WW1, which is presumably when this photo is taken, to run the house. I very much doubt that the gabled house would be inhabited by stable lads who probably lived above the stables if the family had not moved on to automobiles by this stage.
Just some observations ....
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Like most people I have been looking at Edwardian/ arts & craft houses, but I have just been reading about Queen Anne revival architecture which was from the same period, the end of the 19th century, beginning of the 20th century.
Some of the distinguishing features of this period were tile hung walls, bay windows and towers or turrets.
Architects who were active at this time were William Eden Nesfield. J J Stevenson and R Norman Shaw.
This is a house designed by W Eden Nesfield, look at the gables.
Hmm... I hadn't considered Queen Anne revival, but this lends weight to a niggling doubt that I was having: to what extent might architects have copied one region's style when building in another? This rather fine house is in Cheshire, a long way from the south-east.
Against this it might be argued that the large building behind Caz's house looks more functional than architect-designed, and that has the hipped roof typical of the south-east.
Thoughts, anyone?
Arthur
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I may very well be wrong in this theory, but if the house was built in stages, updated, or improved over the years, then there may not have been an architect's involvement in the design of this house. Not from scratch at least. :-\
I agree that the house behind is more modest dwelling, and looks like a cottage.
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The small building at the side is a wood shed.
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I may very well be wrong in this theory, but if the house was built in stages, updated, or improved over the years, then there may not have been an architect's involvement in the design of this house. Not from scratch at least. :-\
I agree that the house behind is more modest dwelling, and looks like a cottage.
I suspect that it had been a bachelors or "gentlemans" house. He had got married, and the new mistress of the house had decided Improvements need to be made. The photograph was taken as a "Before" record.
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Some rambling thoughts from me
This appears to be the back of the house, obviously spacious grounds, possibly with a view , tennis court space, etc.
One wonders what the front looks like, and how recognisable a photo from that side would be?
It seems that there are one or two other buildings very close to the front of the house. (The large chimney on the left as we see it, and the plain building on the right) . These could be part of "our" house, as in joined on to it. Or they could be buildings in the grounds of " our" house, but strange they are out the front not out the back? Or MAYBE our house fronts on to a narrow lane and these otber buildings are actually on tbe other side of the road?
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There are a few postcards of The Glen, Walmer here. Can anyone pick out anything useful?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/walmer
Going by the quote on my post from the elderly resident about St Mildreds being '' a big red building with a tower behind St Marys'' then these 3 houses certainly look to be red brick or at least reddish in colour ( yes the postcard may be colourised) but I don't think I see a tower unless the 3rd on the right has something on the roofline. This postcard is dated 1912.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WALMER-THE-GLEN-1912-/171880388743
The above looks to be a tinted version of this photo
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WALMER-GLEN-SHOWING-St-MARYS-CHURCH-REAL-PHOTO-VINTAGE-1907-POSTCARD-/291524151950
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Oooh how tantalising is this!!!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Walmer-The-Beach-Kent-RP-Postcard-/201400236362
Just beyond the treeline, directly at 11.58 , a tower is seen to be popping out but not clear!!
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Who would have a tower and why?
One reason would be a hobby such as astronomy or bird watching
Another reason may be for a water tank
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Wow Trish, the gables on that house are so very like the mystery house ....
DG, thanks for looking for the Walmer house - 'tis indeed tantalising.
I've seen some of those postcards, but not enough detail is there?
I've been studying this pic from "Britain from Above", but still can't see anything resembling the tower house :(
http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/image/epw035427?search=Walmer%20&ref=7
Yorkslass
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Possibly the tower in question was from this?
http://www.walmerweb.co.uk/history/walmerplace.html
S_L
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More than likely. Good find S_L :)
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I'm getting a bit lost with the thread now, so I do apologise for asking whether the Walmer connection/s are now confirmed as being in all probability Cazzas house. Or are we still looking?
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No, I'm still looking.
S_L
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Ah thanks Still_looking for letting me know you are still looking!!! I will continue to do so too.
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Still Looking Rhodo - but I am taking a side trip to the lovely coast of Kent
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Who would have a tower and why?
One reason would be a hobby such as astronomy or bird watching
Another reason may be for a water tank
I think they were mainly just the fashion in areas with good views
Jan ;)
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Hope you enjoy your little side trip around Kent! I'll look elsewhere in case I bump into you :-)
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Wondering whether to give up on the Walmer house. ???
Found this one, advertised in 1923 - it has a tower of sorts, and I think on one of the postcards DG found you can just see this tower peeping out from behind a clump of trees.
Yorkslass
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I must commend you on your sticking power Yorkslass. You really are doing a tremendous job searching through all those old newspapers.
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I've just come in on this and am getting lost. Is the general feeling that the original house on this thread is St Mildred's in Walmer? If so, why? I may well have missed something.
St Mildred's no longer stands but has been replaced by the predictable estate of 60's boxes standing just behind St Mary's church when viewed from the Glen. It's a small cul-de-sac and I've never seen a picture of it - is the one posted by Yorklass reckoned to be it? I think it could well be but is standard construction for a lot of late Victorian houses with its tower at the corner.
AJ
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I've just come in on this and am getting lost. Is the general feeling that the original house on this thread is St Mildred's in Walmer? If so, why? I may well have missed something.
St Mildred's no longer stands but has been replaced by the predictable estate of 60's boxes standing just behind St Mary's church when viewed from the Glen. It's a small cul-de-sac and I've never seen a picture of it - is the one posted by Yorklass reckoned to be it? I think it could well be but is standard construction for a lot of late Victorian houses with its tower at the corner.
AJ
No, St Mildred's was just a possibility. Without a photo we can't tell. If the newspaper photo is St Mildred's then it definitely isn't Cazza's house.
As Stilllooking said we're still looking.
Jan ;)
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I've been a bit confused with the Walmer connection too. My view, which I haven't had chance to put until just now, is that the tops of the towers in the Walmer photos don't look right - either the roofs have the wrong pitch, or there isn't a pointy top at all. And I think the general consensus now is that it's not the one, possibly for other reasons which I haven't quite grasped.
Does anyone have any thoughts on my earlier suggestions that we might need to look further afield - cf schools in Hampshire and Berkshire (reply #48), and some alarmingly similar features in Cheshire (#60)?
Arthur
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Don't give up on Walmer just yet. Bring up St Mary's Church on Google sattelite suitably enlarged. Church orientations E - W so tower west end. South, where the photograph was taken from is at 4 o'clock roughly. Drag map up that line to show other side of St Clare Road. There is a new house/building there now but the position is right for the church tower visible between the chimney pots in the original. The plot size looks right too. The windblown trees would have been on the edge of St Clare Road.
Can't do any harm for second and third opinions etc.
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I'm pretty sure that's another large chimney stack showing between the other ones, don't think it's a church tower. In any case even if it is a church tower this is Walmer St Mary's
http://www.walmerweb.co.uk/album-upperwalmer-1/upperwalmer-1_index.html
(scroll down)
which I don't think would fit what we can see
The outline for St Mildred's on old OS map doesn't look a fit for Cazza's house either :(
Jan ;)
Sorry I'm confused I thought St Mildred's was where St Mildred's Court is now corner of St Mary's and Walmer Castle Rd where does St Clare Rd come into it ??? :-\
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I think I said on my earlier post, the OS map outline didn't fit Cazza's house.
The pic of the house I posted is what I think is actually St Mildred's - red brick house with a tower, and as I said, I think that's the tower you can see on one of the postcards.
I've given up on Walmer .... but I'm still looking.
There are thousands and thousands of pictures of houses for sale on old newspaper websites, but it's knowing what search terms to use.
"Tower" is useless, as a lot of the descriptions of the houses, and the pictures, don't even mention towers. Perhaps they were just too commonplace.
I just can't believe that this unusual house doesn't have another picture somewhere on the web!!
Yorkslass
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I just can't believe that this unusual house doesn't have another picture somewhere on the web!!
Perhaps that is the point, it wasn't unusual or important enough for a photo to be taken other than holiday snaps?
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IF it was "off the Beaten track" and IF it is still in a remote area not close to a public highway, it may still not be on the Street view map.
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Don't give up on Walmer just yet. Bring up St Mary's Church on Google sattelite suitably enlarged. Church orientations E - W so tower west end. South, where the photograph was taken from is at 4 o'clock roughly. Drag map up that line to show other side of St Clare Road. There is a new house/building there now but the position is right for the church tower visible between the chimney pots in the original. The plot size looks right too. The windblown trees would have been on the edge of St Clare Road.
Can't do any harm for second and third opinions etc.
Is this the house on On Street View? There is a building on the corner of St Clare and ( I think St Marys Rd) across from the church which is red brick and looks now to be a kinder or such
I am not saying IT IS in Walmer , but I am prepared to spend a little of my time looking there :)
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I've given up on Walmer .... but I'm still looking.
Yorkslass
No , you are Yorkslass :)
;D
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Good evening,
There are far too many trees and other buildings in a small area for it to be the location of Cazza's house. Also too flat so a lot of that would appear behind the house but there is nothing in view on Cazza's photo.
As both Jan and I have said, Cazza's blow up's show that to be another chimney and not a church tower behind the house.
The building behind with the hipped roof is not residential, it has no chimneys. At the time of the photo all houses would have had them.
There are a lot of windows open so warmish weather but there is also smoke coming from one chimney on the right. As the window on the right front wasn't given a bay front I think that is the business end of the house. Kitchen, pantry laundry etc. Plus WC at front right corner where soil pipe goes up the front and up the tower.
The tower would have been a viewing room to look at something, A water tank wouldn't have windows and in that era the water was probably coming straight from the well anyway. (Ours still did in the 50s although Grandad did fit an electric pump).
Having spent the day in Oxfordshire I'm now more inclined than ever towards the high weald area. Plenty of high spots, Scots Pines and remote houses although not all close to a road.
John915
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Thanks John for pulling so much detail together from that original house. Most.helpful and useful.
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The building behind with the hipped roof is not residential, it has no chimneys. At the time of the photo all houses would have had them.
John, due to the angle the photo was taken and the height of the roof of the gabled house, it is possible that the chimney was on the other side of the house. There is a chimney on the far right of the photo but I am not sure which building that belongs to.
There is a glazed window on the side of the building which may indicate it is residential.
It looks to be brick with cladding of some sort - what type of non residential building might it be?
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The building behind with the hipped roof is not residential, it has no chimneys. At the time of the photo all houses would have had them.
John, due to the angle the photo was taken and the height of the roof of the gabled house, it is possible that the chimney was on the other side of the house. There is a chimney on the far right of the photo but I am not sure which building that belongs to.
There is a glazed window on the side of the building which may indicate it is residential.
It looks to be brick with cladding of some sort - what type of non residential building might it be?
Yes, I agree with you Ruskie.
I have read John's analysis, and then looked closely at the enlargement of the rear buildings.
Due to the angle and position of the camera, it is quite possible that there are chimneys just out of view. You can just see the tip of something above the roof.
Given the trees visible, I imagine wood was used as fuel for the fires.
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Yes, there is something - perhaps a chimney - on the roofline of the larger building to the right. But the chimney on the far right of the picture (to the right of the greenhouse) - surely that is too low to function as a chimney?
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Yes, there is something - perhaps a chimney - on the roofline of the larger building to the right. But the chimney on the far right of the picture (to the right of the greenhouse) - surely that is too low to function as a chimney?
The something on the roofline looks an odd shape for a chimney, too pointed ???
I think the one on the far right is probably connected to heating for the greenhouse, it doesn't seem in quite the right position to be for the building with sky lights.
Jan ;)
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Not sure if I mentioned this in the other thread or not - the tower and the grounds make me think of a private cricket oval pavilion etc.
Got nothing else to think of as Aussie wickets tumble :(
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The resident may have been a Tea importer, and may have been able to see ships approaching Liverpool or Bristol or Glasgow from his tower.
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I think the tower is just part of the design of the house, possibly a library. Gut feeling is still telling me South of England.
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For what it is worth, my gut feeling has always been that this is south England too . North Downs was my first thought.
Also that as has been said before, this is the back of the house, so the front may be hard to recognise from "street view" especially with the other buildings possibly in close proximity , and if for any reason the tower has been removed in any later improvememts to the property. Thats of course if we know where to look at street views! As for finding a picture of the rear view to compare with this one, well if it is just a family home (albeit a family with a fettish for a lot of fresh air!) there may not be another photo in the public domain, unless the property has been sold recently and agents photos are still online. But maybe it has not been sold for many years.
Dont mean to sound "all doom &gloom", I am still looking !
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Yes, there is something - perhaps a chimney - on the roofline of the larger building to the right. But the chimney on the far right of the picture (to the right of the greenhouse) - surely that is too low to function as a chimney?
The something on the roofline looks an odd shape for a chimney, too pointed ???
I think the one on the far right is probably connected to heating for the greenhouse, it doesn't seem in quite the right position to be for the building with sky lights.
Jan ;)
Yes this is probably correct. It is an odd little thing and difficult to work out which building it services.
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I still keep looking.
One problem I have is yes I agree it looks like the back of the house, but if so why does the greenhouse appear to be on the front of the house?
Greenhouses were never in the front garden.
Working on the fact that the greenhouse is on the right I wondered if in fact the front was on the left making the house being long and thin as looked at from the front?
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I thought some people were thinking that the front of the house was on the left out of view? :-\
I am not sure. This still looks like the front to me, with a driveway along where the seats are perhaps.
It doesn't quite make sense that the greenhouse is visible from the front of a house, but I thought that the photo may have been taken from a slight angle, whereas if it was taken further to the left of the frontage then the greenhouse may not have been visible.
No idea really ....
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I can see this working as the front of the house. If I use the example of my in-laws' house, this is at right angles to the road (which runs N-S), so the West side of the house is roadside. The front door is on the south elevation. The formal/entertaining garden is on the south side too. As you move around to the east side of the house the garden becomes less formal and more veg patch and washing lines. On the north side/back of the house is the garage and wood sheds.
Therefore, I find it plausible that there is a road to the left of the photo. Behind the house could be a driveway/garage/workshop etc with a path around to the front of the house, which also happens to be where the garden/tennis court/croquet lawn etc is. This might also make sense of the two doors - the formal entrance on the left, with the access outside (perhaps with associated cloak room/muddy boot room) on the right.
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The post on the lawn reminds me of a bird of prey landing post
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The post on the lawn reminds me of a bird of prey landing post
Yes. very good point. More likely to be that than a Tennis Court.
That fits in with the Sporting Estate theory in Remote Scotland, Cumberland/Westmorland or Wales.
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Hi everyone.
Some great thoughts on here sadly my tiny brain isn't going to compete much.
Just finished looking for properties overlooking estuaries or lakes, so included Coniston, Slimbridge and Martinmere thinking the tower may have something to do with bird watching. Sir Peter Scot being the thought behind all this. Also Stud farms with stables, racing stables coach houses, my mind is boggling ;D.
Just wondered if anyone can make out any reflections in the windows all I can work out is maybe more trees.
I hadn't even noticed the small chimney for the green house so I am still learning and seeing new things after all this time.
I am wishing with all my heart this building is still intact and functioning as I really have grown very fond of it.
Ps has anyone noticed on the zoom picture F there is smoke coming out of the chimney? just an aside.
regards Maggie
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The "greenhouse" could be more like an Orangery or Palm House in those days.
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The greenhouse looks quite an ordinary one to me. The glazing bars are very simple, not substantial enough to be an orangery or palm house. And palms grow very big - just look at the height the glasshouses are at Kew, RBG Edinburgh and RHS Wisley!
I had wondered in an idle moment (total fantasy probably, but it might just strike a chord with someone!) if it had become or always was a research facility, horticultural. There seems to be netting - or certainly in front of it, perhaps protecting a fruit garden from the birds? Although I'm not sure there is enough room for that.
The chimney near the greenhouse is - I think - not part of the greenhouse building, but part of the building beyond it, the one with the windows in the roof.
I don't think the materials we can see would be used to build a house/building in Scotland or the Lakes area.
The pole in the flat area is too tall for a bird of prey post.
Nell
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Nell, I have been wondering about a horticultural use too which could explain the outbuildings, maybe gardens open to the public, it is before the days of garden centres. I think the netting is attached to the outside of the greenhouse for shade purposes.
If you look at #10 of this thread, I think the greenhouse is set further back than it appears. In front of the greenhouse is a flower border, then a lawn area, before the other flower border near the two bushes and dog.
If you look at the side of the house with the climbing plant you can see at least one window open, there is also a dark shape above the glass house roof level, which could be another open window.
Also on this thread #10, can be seen a radio mast, (an inverted V shape among the trees) above the roof of the back building, it has not been mentioned for a long time. I wonder if there is any significance to the use of this property and is the lookout tower associated with it.
Pat
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I'm not totally convinced re the radio mast, but if it is a radio mast, I wonder - is there any way to search the locations of all/historic radio masts? I can find plenty of lists of mobile masts and current masts, but it's the old ones which might help us.
Nell
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Whereabouts is the radio mast please?
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Spidermonkey, this was first mentioned by S-L in the original WAI12 posts #37 & #44. It is at the top of the barnlike building just right of the apex, disappearing out of shot. There are two poles with horizontal bars, admittedly they are among the trees, but I'm pretty sure they are not part of the trees.
Pat
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Good evening,
There is an old GCHQ compound with several tall masts on Ashdown Forest. I have been over that area searching but will look again.
Will also check on when the listening post was first built.
John915
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This is the Ashdown Forest site.
http://www.derelictplaces.co.uk/main/misc-sites/15866-codename-aspidistra-crowborough.html
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Good evening,
There was always a large array of masts just here but sadly gone now; http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fus/
John915
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Can someone please describe exactly where they think the aerial is, please?
Is it vertical or horizontal?
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I think this is the area:
Nell
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What is that to the right of the aerial? Looks like a plane!
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Good evening,
The building to the rear is not residential. If it was I would expect to see at least one chimney at this end near the window. They would not all be at the other end and out of sight.
If that is an open door on the right of it then it is single story and at a higher position than the house. Either that or you step out into space. This is the early days of cars becoming common among the wealthy so I think they have had a substantial garage built in place of the old stable block. The little pointy bit on the roof is most likely an air vent or maybe a small clock tower.
The chimney lower down is on the outside end of the small building behind the greenhouse. So possibly heating as Jan said for the greenhouse but also for the shed.
The different colours of the windows is an old decorating practice to differentiate between fixed sashes and opening sashes. Quite common still in some areas of sussex and other areas.
Of to do some more research.
John915
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I think it is only the way the tree branch looks when you zoom in.
From a distance these details don't seem so obvious or have as much of a defined shape. Possibly misleading for all I know. I think I would put the word aerial between quotation marks - still not convinced about it. :-\
Nell
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Good evening again,
I think if it was an aerial it would have more than two uprights and would have some lattice work between them.
John915
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Time to confess.
The ''aerial'' idea was mine. I first raised it in relation to the weather vane :-[. My initial impression was that we had a communications tower and followed that with '' gee that must be an aerial sticking above it'' . That then led to the Military Impressment for the war which led to Military Convalescent etc etc
I was never aware of the idea about those two lines being anything other than natural growth
Apologies all ;D
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(I thought I'd posted this a few minutes ago but it doesn't seem to be there, so apologies if anyone sees it twice.)
Just found an article on Arts and Crafts houses:
http://ukmarketreview.co.uk/mr32/jeremy_musson.html
It doesn't get us any nearer, but I thought it was interesting.
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That fits in with the Sporting Estate theory in Remote Scotland, Cumberland/Westmorland or Wales.
There has been a bit of debate over several aspects of these buildings however I think everyone is in agreement that this style of architecture is most prevalent in the southern counties and that is where Caz's house is, or was situated.
John, regarding the open door to the right of the gabled house - I think it is very difficult to judge the distances between buildings. They appear to be very close together, but there is likely to be a reasonable distance between house, greenhouse, skylight building and gabled house. To me it looks like the gabled house is higher up the 'hill' than the mystery house, so the open door, possibly to an outhouse or wall behind the gabled house, looks higher up again. Hope I've explained that well enough. It's quite deceptive I believe. :)
I'm off to do some searching now .... ::) :)
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Has anyone searched this site?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/i_dig_doug/20316188705/in/pool-houseswithtowers/
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Wow, 14 pages to catch up on, everyone's been really busy! Sorry I haven't had a chance to be around the last couple of days.
Can anyone make out stuff in the tower? I was hoping if I got a better scan we might be able to make out something in their that would give us a clue to as to it's use, but the opaqueness of the glass makes it hard to see.
Do the front windows look like they open?
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Good morning,
Has anyone searched this site?
https://www.flickr.com/photos/i_dig_doug/20316188705/in/pool-houseswithtowers/
Yes, mostly American monstrosities.
Do the front windows look like they open?
I think the centre 2 do, painted white.
John915
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Caz, I think I can see computer monitors inside the tower. :o
(no not really ... ;) but there are some square things)
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The large chimney of the building to the rear really interests me and it appears to have a good crop of weeds or grass growing out of it, unless it is very early spring and there are no leaves on the trees.
Judging by its size it should have had more than one chimney pot - maybe giving a clue that this building/ part of building was in a poor state of repair?? :-\
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Good evening,
.
If that is an open door on the right of it then it is single story and at a higher position than the house. Either that or you step out into space. This is the early days of cars becoming common among the wealthy so I think they have had a substantial garage built in place of the old stable block. The little pointy bit on the roof is most likely an air vent or maybe a small clock tower.
The chimney lower down is on the outside end of the small building behind the greenhouse. So possibly heating as Jan said for the greenhouse but also for the shed.
The different colours of the windows is an old decorating practice to differentiate between fixed sashes and opening sashes. Quite common still in some areas of sussex and other areas.
Of to do some more research.
John915
I do not think they would have stopped using horses simultaneously with getting their first car. It is perfect Horse riding country. People still keep horses in that area for recreational use.
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The large chimney of the building to the rear really interests me and it appears to have a good crop of weeds or grass growing out of it, unless it is very early spring and there are no leaves on the trees.
Judging by its size it should have had more than one chimney pot - maybe giving a clue that this building/ part of building was in a poor state of repair?? :-\
I am sure you are correct.
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Sorry, I didnt mean earlier in the thread for us to get bogged down in "fronts" and "backs" of houses! The point I was trying to make (and failed to make clearly!) was simply that this view will be very different from a "street view".
(I think I was taking a very simple approach and using " front" to mean "side nearest street".!)
Either the street is behind the house (as we see it in the photo), either a way off, or alternatively narrow and between our house and the other buildings OR it is off somewhere, maybe to the left, and our house has a long drive.
Any of these secenarios would make recognising it from google street view (even if we were sure of what town or village to search) rather difficult. Which is annoying.
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Sorry, I didnt mean earlier in the thread for us to get bogged down in "fronts" and "backs" of houses! The point I was trying to make (and failed to make clearly!) was simply that this view will be very different from a "street view".
(I think I was taking a very simple approach and using " front" to mean "side nearest street".!)
Either the street is behind the house (as we see it in the photo), either a way off, or alternatively narrow and between our house and the other buildings OR it is off somewhere, maybe to the left, and our house has a long drive.
Any of these secenarios would make recognising it from google street view (even if we were sure of what town or village to search) rather difficult. Which is annoying.
I do not think that this property was on a conventional street. I think it is in a remote rural area. The photo was probably taken before they had mains electricity.
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The greenhouse looks quite an ordinary one to me. The glazing bars are very simple, not substantial enough to be an orangery or palm house. And palms grow very big - just look at the height the glasshouses are at Kew, RBG Edinburgh and RHS Wisley!
I had wondered in an idle moment (total fantasy probably, but it might just strike a chord with someone!) if it had become or always was a research facility, horticultural. There seems to be netting - or certainly in front of it, perhaps protecting a fruit garden from the birds? Although I'm not sure there is enough room for that.
The chimney near the greenhouse is - I think - not part of the greenhouse building, but part of the building beyond it, the one with the windows in the roof.
I don't think the materials we can see would be used to build a house/building in Scotland or the Lakes area.
The pole in the flat area is too tall for a bird of prey post.
Nell
It could be an "oven" for manufacturing Charcoal. ( that refers to the building with the Chimney outside it)
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I do not think that this property was on a conventional street. I think it is in a remote rural area. The photo was probably taken before they had mains electricity.
Even a remote rural area will have some sort of access to some sort of lane. But might not be on Google Street view as yet, or, as in the point I was making, may make Street view unable to bring up a comparable view of the house, if it is still there today (wherever "there" is!)
As to electricitiy, that wont effect Street View.
But I thought it was taken about 1930-1950, broadly speaking, when that two tone painting of window frames was fashionable. In which case probably had electricity?
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It depends on how rural the house really is as to whether it would have been on mains electricity.
http://thefusebox.northernpowergrid.com/page/electricity/history.cfm#item_11
In 1933 1 in 3 houses had a supply of electricity, by 1944, 2 in 3 houses had electricity. So if this photo was taken in the late 1930s, there is a good chance that this house wouldn't have been on the mains.
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I think the photo was taken prior to 1914.
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I think the photo was taken prior to 1914.
Looking at the evidence others have given re windows I think that is too early and it is more likely to be between the two World Wars.
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It depends on how rural the house really is as to whether it would have been on mains electricity.
http://thefusebox.northernpowergrid.com/page/electricity/history.cfm#item_11
In 1933 1 in 3 houses had a supply of electricity, by 1944, 2 in 3 houses had electricity. So if this photo was taken in the late 1930s, there is a good chance that this house wouldn't have been on the mains.
Some of the statistics on that web site are incorrect, so I would not rely on those details, myself.
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Looking at the evidence others have given re windows I think that is too early and it is more likely to be between the two World Wars.
Yes groom, the photo was definitely taken after WW1, and possibly a lot later. The date of the house and the date that the photo was taken may be two completely different eras.
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It depends on how rural the house really is as to whether it would have been on mains electricity.
http://thefusebox.northernpowergrid.com/page/electricity/history.cfm#item_11
In 1933 1 in 3 houses had a supply of electricity, by 1944, 2 in 3 houses had electricity. So if this photo was taken in the late 1930s, there is a good chance that this house wouldn't have been on the mains.
it probably was not getting town gas piped in either?
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It depends on how rural the house really is as to whether it would have been on mains electricity.
http://thefusebox.northernpowergrid.com/page/electricity/history.cfm#item_11
In 1933 1 in 3 houses had a supply of electricity, by 1944, 2 in 3 houses had electricity. So if this photo was taken in the late 1930s, there is a good chance that this house wouldn't have been on the mains.
it probably was not getting town gas piped in either?
It would be very unlikely to be getting piped gas now in a rural area. ;D
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;) I was just going to say that Kay - we're still waiting for gas now!!!
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We are a mile from the nearest pipe :) In the same county as you I think 8)
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So we are :) Can pretty much guarantee that "Cazza's House" isn't in this county!
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I do not think that the post on the lawn is for a tennis net.
It looks too tall for that purpose. It looks about nine feet tall, so what could it be?
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I think I'll have to disagree with you on the size of the pole - to me it looks about 3 to 4ft tall. :-\ As always though, I am happy to be proved wrong!! :D
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Agree with spidermonkey!
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Me to!
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I think I'll have to disagree with you on the size of the pole - to me it looks about 3 to 4ft tall. :-\ As always though, I am happy to be proved wrong!! :D
Agree. ;)
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I agree as well, it's never 9 foot high.
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It appears to be exactly the same size as a tennis net pole (3' 6").
I wonder what it might be.
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IF it was a tennis Court, which there is no evidence that it is, there would be Lines marked out with a Lime Wash. Secondly there is no room for a proper court.
It is pure speculation to draw any conclusion that it is a Tennis Court from the evidence of ONE post.
No way is there any evidence that there is a Tennis Court.
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Hello,
Is it my eyes or is that a cleat about 3/4 way up on the right hand side of the post?
Regards, Dod.
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If it's a Tennis post could it be like this.
http://www.reclaimedworld.com/product-p/0415.htm
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IF it was a tennis Court, which there is no evidence that it is, there would be Lines marked out with a Lime Wash. Secondly there is no room for a proper court.
From the look of some of the trees it is possibly late Spring, therefore a tennis court would not be marked out at that time of year.
We don't know where the photographer is standing, so can't say how much of the garden is behind him.
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If that post was 9' high, however tall do you think the photographer was?
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From the look of some of the trees it is possibly late Spring, therefore a tennis court would not be marked out at that time of year.
Or even early spring - the tall deciduous trees on the left seem to have no leaves at all, which could even indicate winter, though since there are some flowers (tulips? daffs?) in front of the house and daisies in the lawn it can't be too early in the year. A lot would depend on how mild the weather was that year, but it's clearly outside the tennis season.
Arthur
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It's before Wimbledon fortnight - nobody plays tennis until after Wimbledon, then you can't get an empty court anywhere! :D
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Not an official court but perhaps a couple of posts so that the occupants could set up a net an have a knockabout game.
I once lived in a house, built between the wars, where there were two post holders made of concrete set opposite each other at the edge of the lawn. The lawn was fairly long but not as wide as a full tennis court. It was just for a bit of fun and exercise.
Venelow
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Maybe it's where they tie the dog up when he's naughty ;D ::)
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It is pure speculation to draw any conclusion that it is a Tennis Court from the evidence of ONE post.
You're absolutely right, of course. However, given the context, and the flat area of grass, I think I would go with a 3'6" tennis net pole rather than a 9' bird of prey perch.
To misquote shamelessly - "If you hear hoofbeats, think horses not unicorns".
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Maybe it's where they tie the dog up the he's naughty ;D ::)
Or there for his use instead of a lamp post. ;D ;D
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Maybe it's where they tie the dog up the he's naughty ;D ::)
Or there for his use instead of a lamp post. ;D ;D
Maybe that's why the dog is staring at the photographer, getting a little too close to his beloved pee post ;D
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She may be a female dog, In which case they do not need a lamp post
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Just catching up with the last few days' input into this thread - you have all been working hard!
Picking up (late) on some of the previous comments, I also think this way down south. I also see trees rather than an aerial behind the house.
If this house was in my part of the world it would almost certainly still exist, but development pressures have been more intense in the south. The side by side maps posted earlier showed several large houses, one of which looked similar to Cazza's, but none of them have survived - it may well be that Cazza's house has now been replaced by a housing estate.
Mike
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it may well be that Cazza's house has now been replaced by a housing estate.
I'm afraid you could well be right, so many of the large houses in this part of the country have gone that way. If it was a private house and the photographer was just there as a guest, this may be the only existing photo of the place.
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it may well be that Cazza's house has now been replaced by a housing estate.
I'm afraid you could well be right, so many of the large houses in this part of the country have gone that way. If it was a private house and the photographer was just there as a guest, this may be the only exsisting photo of the place.
I have to agree. It's name probably survives in a road name, but, sadly, we don't know what that is!
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I'm not quite ready to give up yet, so here's another question:
Do we have any consensus on how the house is aligned? The weather vane (main pic and closeup no.2) seems to suggest it's more or less on a NE-SW or NW-SE axis, but which? The windswept trees behind suggest to me we might be looking at a SE face, but is the top right arm of the weather vane (as we see it) thicker than the rest, and therefore north - in which case this would be the NE face? I think the general levels of light and shade would be consistent with this if it was taken fairly early in the morning.
If we can get the alignment sorted, and take that together with what I think is probably rising ground behind and to the right, would that help to eliminate quite large areas from the search?
Arthur
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I'm not quite ready to give up yet, so here's another question:
Do we have any consensus on how the house is aligned? The weather vane (main pic and closeup no.2) seems to suggest it's more or less on a NE-SW or NW-SE axis, but which? The windswept trees behind suggest to me we might be looking at a SE face, but is the top right arm of the weather vane (as we see it) thicker than the rest, and therefore north - in which case this would be the NE face? I think the general levels of light and shade would be consistent with this if it was taken fairly early in the morning.
If we can get the alignment sorted, and take that together with what I think is probably rising ground behind and to the right, would that help to eliminate quite large areas from the search?
Arthur
I haven't given up either. I think you're right about the weather vane. So if the house is NE facing the prevailing winds are easterly, ruling out Hants and West Sussex where they are from the south, otherwise pretty much the area a lot of us have been looking but also includes East Anglia and more, see
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/geography/weather_climate/climate_rev4.shtml
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I haven't given up either. I think you're right about the weather vane. So if the house is NE facing the prevailing winds are easterly, ruling out Hants and West Sussex where they are from the south, otherwise pretty much the area a lot of us have been looking but also includes East Anglia and more, see
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebitesize/geography/weather_climate/climate_rev4.shtml
Re the bit I've bolded - no, I don't think so.
Firstly, I find that BBC page and map rather confusing. Based on my understanding of British weather, it's showing the characteristics of winds from each direction, and the zones in which each of them is most noticeably felt. What it doesn't show is that for most of the time most of the country is under the influence of more or less westerly winds, so that in most places trees that are exposed to strong winds will lean broadly eastwards. (Near coasts this might be different, as maximum exposure is often towards the sea and there can be onshore winds due to local variations in land and sea temperature as well as due to global air currents.)
Anyway, what I'm getting from No.12/12a is that we're looking at the NE face (never mind for now the question of whether this is front, back or side), the trees are mostly exposed to winds roughly from S or SW (it's hard to be precise), but on the day the photo was taken, the wind was approximately NW.
I think this is still consistent with Sussex and the Weald area - and being nearer the south coast than the west, it may be reasonable to think of the prevailing wind there being SW rather than W.
Arthur
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Yes sorry confused episode. However if the house is facing NE I can't see how the prevailing wind as shown by the trees can be from SW - most likely coming from SE surely? Otherwise the tree would be leaning the other way. Thus the house is more likely to be facing SE despite what the weather vane looks like? According to my drawings which unfortunately I can't post.
Unless I'm still confused ;D
Jan
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As I see it, the prevailing wind seems to be from left to right, as we look at the picture. I think in UK prevailing winds tend to be from the West (correct me if I am wrong) , from from left to right as you look at a map of the UK.
Therefore, the side of the house that we are seeing in the photo (be that front, back,side or whatever) must be facing south-ish.
Which ties in with my "feeling" this is a property on North or South Downs. But that is only a feeling with no back up evidence. Just that is a part of the world I am fairly familiar with, I guess!
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Good afternoon,
I too believe the house as we look at. It has a southerly outlook, somewhere between SE and SW. The trees show a westerly prevailing wind.
The weather vane shows however that on the day the photo was taken the wind was in the easterly direction.
Just as a point of interest the weather vane is of a much older style than the house. So maybe rescued from a previous building on this spot.
I believe it to be on the high wealdor maybe the Surrey hills although they are quite heavily wooded. I don't think the south downs are likely or I'm sure I would have seen it at some time in the past 65 years. Most certainly not right on the top because it would stick out like the proverbial sore thumb.
John915
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My feeling is southish facing but not on the South downs. More likely the Weald, Kent being my gut feeling. I don't think it needs to be particularly rural, could be edge of town.
Re the weather vane being an older style - what sort of time are you thinking of John? I ask because I think that large chimney is much older than the rest of the house, older than the late Victorian which I think the left hand part of the house is, although hidden by more modern bays.
Jan
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Been addicted to this great search, and have enjoyed many hours viewing properties. Has architect Reginald Fairfax Wells been mentioned as a possible for WAI 12a? I've looked at a few seem to be in his size range.
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I nearly had to change my underwear when I first looked at this one, sadly not the one :-\
Pendean House, Midhurst, Sussex.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fv2/
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The house may be on the lee side of a range of hills?
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I nearly had to change my underwear when I first looked at this one, sadly not the one :-\
Pendean House, Midhurst, Sussex.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fv2/
I had the same problem when it popped up for me at some point ;D
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I nearly had to change my underwear when I first looked at this one, sadly not the one :-\
Pendean House, Midhurst, Sussex.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fv2/
As its a care home you would be sorted real quick.
One hopes
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Good evening,
The weather vane is early 1800s maybe even late 1700s. I would say 1825 at the very latest.
John915
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I nearly had to change my underwear when I first looked at this one, sadly not the one :-\
Pendean House, Midhurst, Sussex.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fv2/
As its a care home you would be sorted real quick.
One hopes
Your humour cracks me dg, love it ;D
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Thank you jool , I'll be here all week.
Now I don't do descriptions too well...being a visual kind of person. So what does the following suggest?
Terrace. Circa 1830. Yellow stock brick with gault brick dressings. Slate
hipped roof with hipped gables over and projections and 6 ridge stacks.
Slightly projecting wings at each end of front. 2 storeys. 3 bay wings
and 10 bay centre with arches through to rear in 3rd and 8th bays of centre
with blocked windows over. Glazing bar sashes with gauged heads, wider in
2nd, 4th, 7th and 9th bays of centre. Panelled and part glazed doors with
arched decorated overlights and rubbed brick arches in 1st, 4th, 8th, 9th,
13th and 16th bays of whole front.
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Is it this terrace of properties from Historic England Listed Buildings ?? http://www.rootschat.com/links/01fv9/
Sorry was trying to do a street view link to the terrace on the east side of Waterloo Road, Cranbrook which only goes to the map :-\
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Could that be architects description for cazza's house no 12 ?
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Very good Kay . Tis indeed Waterloo Rd. Scot Pines out the front wall and all.
Spotted this pic http://www.kentphotoarchive.com/kpa/cranbrook/thumblarge.php?cranbrook=1&startnumber=185&pagenumber=10
And its frustratingly obscure
Even the street view https://www.google.com.au/maps/@51.104633,0.540117,3a,75y,110.08h,72.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snFR265u94Q7lMwhZfg4bnA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
Is ordinary
Not sure it is but I would like to see it !!!
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Surely the first word "terrace" tells you all you need to know though?
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Not sure what you mean Mike? To me a terrace house could be an elongated house
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Surely the first word "terrace" tells you all you need to know though?
Although the picture doesn't show a terraced house, but a detached property similar to Cazza's pad.
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No, a terrace is either a row of adjoining houses or a flat area of ground. They must mean the second (as part of the description).
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For instance, Cazza's house has a terrace overlooking the lawn.
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OR football stadium stands. ...?
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Thank you.
The overhead view doesn't look good for it. :(
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Guernsey+Cottage/@51.1045203,0.5406179,143m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47df3b44a890c9c7:0x86a81410e1188f04
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OR football stadium stands. ...?
Exactly, yes. Flat raised areas.
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Thank you.
The overhead view doesn't look good for it. :(
https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Guernsey+Cottage/@51.1045203,0.5406179,143m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47df3b44a890c9c7:0x86a81410e1188f04
No, it's not this house. Similar style though.
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But stepped, like for growing crops on a hillside
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Ooh I got quite excited when I saw the tower, but I don't think it's the one :(
Another photo of it here...
http://www.francisfrith.com/cranbrook/cranbrook-willesley-house-1901_46445
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Yes, as we have already noted its about trying to marry up what may well be visible , to what is visible in the photo , and trying to fit it in
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The Irish Sea could be visible from the tower?
So a business man or merchant could observe his ships approaching Liverpool?
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Spotted this pic http://www.kentphotoarchive.com/kpa/cranbrook/thumblarge.php?cranbrook=1&startnumber=185&pagenumber=10
I think this is a more up to date view of that property.
http://www.imagesofengland.org.uk/Details/Default.aspx?id=168858&mode=quick
The address is given as Angley Road, which is the main road close to Waterloo Road.
I think this is the terrace of houses in the other description:
http://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.09833,0.539869,44.64h,2.19p,1z
Nell
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Thank you Nell ,
Glad I didn't see that one first. I might have really had an accident. Gee that tower would have blinded me to everything else - similar styles though :)
Added: I think style-wise we are in the right part of England - Kent, Sussex and maybe Hampshire etc
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How odd, that's the house I've just been looking at on this website.
www.zoopla.co.uk/property-history/shaw-house/angley-road/cranbrook/tn17-2le/32992648
Regards, Dod.
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Did one particular railway company favour towers on its platforms. That may be another good search avenue?
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Did one particular railway company favour towers on its platforms. That may be another good search avenue?
After you mentioned it before I looked at disused stations. There were also some close but no cigar type buildings
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/
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How odd, that's the house I've just been looking at on this website.
www.zoopla.co.uk/property-history/shaw-house/angley-road/cranbrook/tn17-2le/32992648
Regards, Dod.
This gives a bit more information including the architect.
http://www.harpersandhurlingham.com/pdfs/15/93/159319.pdf
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I think this is the terrace of houses in the other description:
http://www.instantstreetview.com/@51.09833,0.539869,44.64h,2.19p,1z
Nell
That makes sense.
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Another excellent website.
www.theweald.org/sitecontent.asp
A lot of the houses are probably much older than Cazza's house but if you like old buildings and looking at old photographs then have a look.
If the house is in this area then I'm not surprised there is a lookout tower. Some of the views are just perfect. Beautiful part of the country.
Regards, Dod.
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The Irish Sea could be visible from the tower?
So a business man or merchant could observe his ships approaching Liverpool?
Which gave me a thought - the tower has glass on four sides. Maybe its on an island?
Isle of Wight, Jersey, Anglesey, Isle of Man?
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Brownsea Island even in Poole Harbour?
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But on none of those islands could you see out to sea in all four directions (except, perhaps from the summit of Snaefell.)
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The Irish Sea could be visible from the tower?
So a business man or merchant could observe his ships approaching Liverpool?
Which gave me a thought - the tower has glass on four sides. Maybe its on an island?
Isle of Wight, Jersey, Anglesey, Isle of Man?
Barbara, I had a good look around the Isle of Wight yesterday, there were a few houses with that unusual window gable, but I couldn't locate Cazza's house :(
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They say that you can see Five kingdoms from the top of Snaefell (on a clear day)
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They say that you can see Five kingdoms from the top of Snaefell (on a clear day)
Quite true - but you wouldn't want to build a house there! With or without a tennis lawn.
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Just a though, I've seen a lookout tower on a house in Hadley Common in Monken Hadley. It does look smaller and there is no glass, however there is a weather vane. Can't see the house due to trees. Another house has uninterrupted views towards London (I think) along the same stretch of road is for sale for £7,900.000, so I have viewed, online of course.
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What time of the day do you think that the photo has been taken?
Could it be early morning? Or just after 12 Noon?
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IF it was slightly older, it would probably have had wooden shutters on the inside of the windows.
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I keep coming back to this and searching the internet but nothing seems to match. Looking at what could be a mast in the trees - could it be a mast on a railway line? Just thinking out loud really
Chris
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Just come home from a weeks holiday on Norfolk.
Found myself looking at houses as we drove around....... Just in case!
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Just come home from a weeks holiday on Norfolk.
Found myself looking at houses as we drove around....... Just in case!
You didn't find it, yet you still came back??
Lightweight.
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Have been trying to find an updated pic of Coldharbour Manor Leafsheath Lane East Grinstead
Street View only shows bushes. ::)
Don't think it is but I am annoyed because after looking through 4 volumes of ''Recent English Domestic Architecture'' I want it to be so I can stop looking ;D
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Have been trying to find an updated pic of Coldharbour Manor Leafsheath Lane East Grinstead
Street View only shows bushes. ::)
Don't think it is but I am annoyed because after looking through 4 volumes of ''Recent English Domestic Architecture'' I want it to be so I can stop looking ;D
This one David?
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html/svr/1716?prop=20308502&sale=28075721&country=england
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Thank you Jaywit
That site had a previous listing - from 2009?- and the blurb was ''built early 1900s arts and crafts etc'' and while I could see the wings I wanted to see depth.
I have been on archive.org looking through English domestic architecture and buildings etc from the 1920s and back.
I wont give up :-\
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Someone asked why this aspect of the house was photographed. The obvious response to that was that we haven't found the other yet.
But looking through a lot I think this aspect - whether it be back or front - was to show the lawn and house together to give the impression of space, because with wealth comes space.
Its also a common theme in schools, asylums etc
http://www.theretreatyork.org.uk/assets/images/headers/section-header-building.jpg
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Still puzzled about the paintwork! Who paints their bay window frames in alternating light/dark shades?
Were they perhaps trying to add a mock-Tudor element (mock mock-Tudor?) to the building? Was the Arts & Crafts/Queen Anne revival/tile-hung walls/hospital-style-double-doors ensemble not enough for them? ;D
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Still puzzled about the paintwork! Who paints their bay window frames in alternating light/dark shades?
Just the fashion of the time I suppose. Who paints the walls in a room different colours, or only hangs wallpaper on one wall out of four in a room? :)
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But looking through a lot I think this aspect - whether it be back or front - was to show the lawn and house together to give the impression of space, because with wealth comes space.
Good point - and the house certainly does look huge from this aspect.
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Friends of mine bought 2 adjoining cottages in a narrow lane with virtually no front garden. At the back they added an extension and have several acres of garden and meadow. A view from the bottom of the garden shows a fairly impressive country house - but from the front you just see 2 small cottages.
I suspect this house might be a similar case ???
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I'm out of download at the moment which means my system is slowed to dial up speed, so just popping in and out, so apologies for non response! Can't believe 12 is still going..... :o :o :o :o
Caz
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Can't believe 12 is still going....
Nor can I - every time I get notification I think, "Is this it, has it been found?"
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Can't believe 12 is still going....
Nor can I - every time I get notification I think, "Is this it, has it been found?"
Sorry groom...and everyone else
Just an update. I am still looking from time to time and in my travels came across this wonderful site that has some lovely houses but also some genealogical family history.
I have asked the site manager to have a look and he has put it on his twitter and facebook page. Heres hoping
Have a look at this site http://landedfamilies.blogspot.com.au/ and hope Mr Kingsley and his readers can help :)
One thing that Nick suggested - along the lines of most who have had a look - he thinks it is also SE England
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Even if it doesn't lead to finding the mystery house, that site is brilliant David - thank you! It's going straight into my favourites. ;D
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Don't know if this angle is worth exploring or not. Large houses were often used for hospitals or recuperation areas in both wars. I can see a similar house in my minds eye with WW1 soldiers outside sitting on the seats.
The building behind looks like a hall (religious ) of some sort.
Wonder if this is a manse or vicarage?
If it was a vicarage or manse then it may have been one of the first to be offered up as a rest and recuperation area.
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Some excellent advice shanreagh , and welcome to the thread.
We also think you are on the right track. :) It just has that feel doesn't it. Do you agree it could be more south-east than northerly?
I have seen some Manses which I thought came close.
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Help needed please.
Please have a look on the photo restoration category.
Old photo of a horse drawn cart and an old photo circa 1900.
WAI fans expertise appreciated, please.
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Help needed please.
Please have a look on the photo restoration category.
Old photo of a horse drawn cart and an old photo circa 1900.
WAI fans expertise appreciated, please.
This one has been solved now. :)
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This one has been solved now. :)
If only the same could be said of number 12 ;D
Jan
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Just like Freddy Kruger...it's back! ;D ;D ;D
Can't see this one ever being solved, but it's certainly been entertaining!
Caz
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>:( :o ??? ::) :-\ :( ;D
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Every so often when I see a picture of a large house - eg in the posh property supplements - I think 'Is that it?' ::) ;D
But no.....
Still who knows, maybe this time..... ;)
Pat
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OK!!! so I'm hooked again. Searching again for Lutyens style house, with coastguard tower, tile hung, etc., etc. I did find this one, obviously not THE one, but it has a (clock) tower, sunken garden and the gable roof is similar, so maybe on the right lines?
http://inst.knightfrank.com/img/property_images/?src=../1997.jpeg&h=450&w=1000&zc=1
I wonder if it could be a row of coastguard cottages converted to a house, I wonder if the building at the side could be a boathouse, I wonder if .......... I will go on wondering until this is solved.
Pat
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When I looked at this originally, for some reason I thought the watch tower was a separate building behind the house, but now I see there is a drain pipe of some sort running up the house and straight up into the watch tower
Chris
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OK!!! so I'm hooked again. Searching again for Lutyens style house, with coastguard tower, tile hung, etc., etc. I did find this one, obviously not THE one, but it has a (clock) tower, sunken garden and the gable roof is similar, so maybe on the right lines?
http://inst.knightfrank.com/img/property_images/?src=../1997.jpeg&h=450&w=1000&zc=1
I wonder if it could be a row of coastguard cottages converted to a house, I wonder if the building at the side could be a boathouse, I wonder if .......... I will go on wondering until this is solved.
Pat
The link doesn't work Pat :(
I'm still convinced this is a much extended house with the original bit being Victorian on the left, with most of the sash windows replaced. Not that my conviction has ever got me anywhere!
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I think it was in a remote location, and off the beaten track, and no longer exists in the form that it was in the photograph.
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Here we go..... we're all going to get hooked again. ;D ;D
Just when I planned to get a good night's sleep I will be roaming around the internet with my eyes half closed at stupid o'clock ::) ;D
We can't let this one go unsolved can we.
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"Here we go..... we're all going to get hooked again."
I agree Jool !
New observation...the downstairs windows have blinds rather than curtains, which made me think about hospitals. A search of "Cottage Hospitals" led to some very similar buildings, so maybe the greenhouse was for occupational therapy?!
I'll keep looking!
djm297
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My link in #239 was supposed to take you to - The Pleasaunce, Overstrand, Norfolk (that is the correct spelling for pleasaunce)..
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Pat, it certainly ticks a lot of the boxes doesn't it.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01ipn/
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I wonder if it could be a row of coastguard cottages converted to a house
I don't think so. Coastguard cottages were built to a plan and very few have changed much even when converted to houses.
I don't want to call it a 'watch' tower either since it encourages a certain train of thought, which could be misleading.
The house in this picture is a long way from the sea in west London.
Nell
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The "observation" tower may have been to watch the stars, and there would not have been light contamination from street lights if it was a remote location in the early years of the twentieth century
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The house looks rather 'Arts & Crafts Movement' to me; has some similarities to Red House in Bexleyheath, William Morris's house which was designed by him in association with the architect Philip Webb. It is clearly not Red House, but certainly has that kind of 'feel' to it with the tower and some of the gable designs.
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Being a newbie to this post & not having read the other 27 pages what we're looking at is the rear of a "T" shaped building with a separate building beyond (as it has a different style chimney) running at right angles to the main building (if it sits on a pitched roof that is) & at the other end another (looks like newer) 2 storey building with a large greenhouse in between.
2 observations, 1, there are park style benches which indicates (to me anyway) not a private residence. 2, all of the upstairs windows are open. May be just coincidence but looks like a convalescence home for TB sufferers.
I do know that during WW1 many gas casualties were sent to the Channel Isles to recuperate.
Just a thought.
Someone mentioned the pipe running through the tower roof. Stench pipe from the loos.
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Being a newbie to this post & not having read the other 27 pages
You also need to read the 50 pages of the first thread on this house :-X
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=717629.0
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Being a newbie to this post & not having read the other 27 pages what we're looking at is the rear of a "T" shaped building with a separate building beyond (as it has a different style chimney) running at right angles to the main building (if it sits on a pitched roof that is) & at the other end another (looks like newer) 2 storey building with a large greenhouse in between.
2 observations, 1, there are park style benches which indicates (to me anyway) not a private residence. 2, all of the upstairs windows are open. May be just coincidence but looks like a convalescence home for TB sufferers.
I do know that during WW1 many gas casualties were sent to the Channel Isles to recuperate.
Just a thought.
Someone mentioned the pipe running through the tower roof. Stench pipe from the loos.
Its good to have a fresh opinion and perspective. It must have been a very wealthy family that lived in such a place, they probably owned many acres of land around the property.
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You also need to read the 50 pages of the first thread on this house :-X
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=717629.0
Gulp!
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Dark nights are coming Jim! If you have a spare hour (or two) it does make interesting reading.
So many suggestions have been made, but we are obviously missing something. Of course it could have been destroyed, which would be such a shame, but it could have been damaged in the war.
Today, my thoughts have turned to looking at officers messes on wartime airfields, but I agree with the suggestions of convalescence homes, cottage hospitals etc., rather than a private house. So many houses were acquired for these purposes during WW1 and WW2.
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What amazes me most is the perseverance of some people. Well done to you all. I love reading the suggestions etc. Obviously some very intelligent and creative people out there!
Thanks for continuing with the WAIs. I have more to post, but I'm in the middle other projects at the moment.
I do believe there are a couple of others that haven't been solved. I'll bring them back to the top to drive you all crazy until I can sort out some new ones! ;D ;D
Caz
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Not sure if it has been mentioned but the Tower could be called a Belvedere Tower if someone wants to add it to search terms.
Or maybe not ???
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Being a newbie to this post & not having read the other 27 pages what we're looking at is the rear of a "T" shaped building with a separate building beyond (as it has a different style chimney) running at right angles to the main building (if it sits on a pitched roof that is) & at the other end another (looks like newer) 2 storey building with a large greenhouse in between.
2 observations, 1, there are park style benches which indicates (to me anyway) not a private residence. 2, all of the upstairs windows are open. May be just coincidence but looks like a convalescence home for TB sufferers.
I do know that during WW1 many gas casualties were sent to the Channel Isles to recuperate.
Just a thought.
Someone mentioned the pipe running through the tower roof. Stench pipe from the loos.
I think that the first part of your evaluation is correct that the building had a substantial "footprint" but I believe that the building had been re-modelled before the commencement of the first world war.
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I thought maybe some rebuilding had happened but only the right extension seems to be an added feature including the tower.
I wonder if it was built as an artist's studio.
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At some point I believe we started searching in a particular county for No 12 due to the possible connection with other photos in the same batch? Anyone remember where - maybe Bucks? Beds? Berks? Can't find it in previous thread and I could be thinking of another WAI anyway :-\ ;D
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Being a newbie to this post & not having read the other 27 pages
You also need to read the 50 pages of the first thread on this house :-X
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=717629.0
50 pages of pure quality research, as I remember.
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Good evening,
Gulp!
Hope that Gulp was with a large scotch, you will need it.
John915
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Janan
Was it the Clifton Brown family photographs you were thinking of? If so that was in Bucks (Burnham).
Regards
Trish
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That's it, thanks Trish :D
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No problem Janan...this one has driven me insane since Cazza first posted it! I do hope somebody finds it before it completely tips me over the edge!
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2 observations, 1, there are park style benches which indicates (to me anyway) not a private residence. 2, all of the upstairs windows are open. May be just coincidence but looks like a convalescence home for TB sufferers.
Good to have some fresh ideas on this, and I wonder if you might be on to something here. Whatever the house may have been before or afterwards, the blinds (which I think someone mentioned recently) and the open windows could well suggest some kind of sanatorium etc. Or maybe a military hospital, if it's a wartime photo? Or a children's home/school?
Arthur
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It may have been a sporting estate? Shooting and fishing and Fox hunting perhaps?
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2 observations, 1, there are park style benches which indicates (to me anyway) not a private residence. 2, all of the upstairs windows are open. May be just coincidence but looks like a convalescence home for TB sufferers.
Good to have some fresh ideas on this, and I wonder if you might be on to something here. Whatever the house may have been before or afterwards, the blinds (which I think someone mentioned recently) and the open windows could well suggest some kind of sanatorium etc. Or maybe a military hospital, if it's a wartime photo? Or a children's home/school?
Arthur
The blinds could indicate that the owner was a wealthy textile manufacturer from Manchester and could afford to buy the most modern and stylish furnishings.
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2 observations, 1, there are park style benches which indicates (to me anyway) not a private residence. 2, all of the upstairs windows are open. May be just coincidence but looks like a convalescence home for TB sufferers.
Good to have some fresh ideas on this, and I wonder if you might be on to something here. Whatever the house may have been before or afterwards, the blinds (which I think someone mentioned recently) and the open windows could well suggest some kind of sanatorium etc. Or maybe a military hospital, if it's a wartime photo? Or a children's home/school?
Arthur
The blinds could indicate that the owner was a wealthy textile manufacturer from Manchester and could afford to buy the most modern and stylish furnishings.
Which part of Manchester?
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SB, I didn't realise it was only wealthy textile manufacturers from Manchester who could afford to buy the most modern and stylish furnishings. Unfortunately I doubt that speculating about the blinds will get you any closer to determining the location of this house.
Open windows may suggest it was a nice day and the house was being given a good airing. I have noticed in a lot of Caz's photos that the many of the windows have been open, so maybe it was a Victorian/Edwardian "thing". :)
I'm not sure if the benches would have been used in private gardens as well as public. A quick look at google isn't helping me much.
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I wonder if a significant part feature,such as the top of the"lookout"(or whatever it is),were to be reproduced here in reasonable quality in isolation,and then an image matching search were to be done,whether that would yield anything.i have tried it with the original image as published and the returns are just repeats of rootschat references.
Regards
Roger
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I'm sorry Cazza I can't think of anything that hasn't already been discussed :'(
When I saw the thread I had a strong feeling of 'deja vu' ;D
Joy
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The blinds could indicate that the owner was a wealthy textile manufacturer from Manchester and could afford to buy the most modern and stylish furnishings.
Quite possibly a left-handed man? Somewhere between 5'7" and 5'9" in height, with a slight limp?
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The blinds could indicate that the owner was a wealthy textile manufacturer from Manchester and could afford to buy the most modern and stylish furnishings.
Quite possibly a left-handed man? Somewhere between 5'7" and 5'9" in height, with a slight limp?
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The blinds could indicate that the owner was a wealthy textile manufacturer from Manchester
Following that train of thought, could they not also indicate that the owner was a wealthy jeweller from Birmingham, a wealthy merchant banker from London or a wealthy colliery owner from the north-east? Or indeed anywhere else in the country?
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Yes, or a shipping fleet owner from Liverpool.
It may be that the tower provides a view to the Irish Sea, and an observer with a telescope could record their ships approaching the port.
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Yes, or a shipping fleet owner from Liverpool.
It may be that the tower provides a view to the Irish Sea, and an observer with a telescope could record their ships approaching the port.
Probably, yes. You know Liverpool quite well - which streets provide a view of the Irish sea? I think you may be on the verge of cracking this one.
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More likely a place on the Wirral, or Flintshire or along the North Wales coast.
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;D ;D Kind of think this thread has run it's course.
Caz
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;D ;D Kind of think this thread has run it's course.
Caz
You reckon?
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;D ;D Kind of think this thread has run it's course.
Caz
You reckon?
;D ;D ;D ;D Well I did only resurrect it by request. I thought it died a long time ago.
Have to conclude it's either been demolished or it's overseas. The end.
Caz