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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: scritsal on Sunday 04 December 16 21:55 GMT (UK)
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Hi, this is my first post, and I hope it will solve a long standing mystery. My 3x g-grandmother is Mary Buchanan born 1828/9 Glasgow. She was the illegitimate daughter of a wealthy textile manufacturer - Charles Todd of Springfield Mill, Glasgow.(1791-1840) her mother was Margaret Buchanan. I have plenty of information about the Todd's (they were a well known family who had many businesses in Bonhill,, Alexandria, Glasgow etc)., but I cannot find any information about the Buchanans. Was Margaret a servant to Charles, or was she related to the Buchanan tobacco lords? Charles & Margaret had 3 illegitimate children together - Mary who married Colonel Sir David Davidson of Woodcroft, Edinburgh, David born 1830 of Bragburgh Hall, Northants and Northfield House, Rugby (a well known cricketer of his time) and my ancestor Mary who married William Middlemass (a surgeon in the Indian Army). Charles's will leaves substantial bequests to his 3 "natural" or "reputed" children and their mother providing that "they live no nearer than 15 miles of Glasgow! Charles is buried in his father's lair (David Todd) in the Ramshorn churchyard in Glasgow, however I have recently discovered an old newspaper article from the Glasgow Herald which describes the finding of a glass bottle in Lair 50 of Ramshorn Cemetery which belongs to the Buchanans of Auchmur. This bottle contained the instructions for the embalment of Charles Todd in Paris 1841. Is this the link to the Buchanans? I would also like to know if it was common for the Glasgow middle class at this time to have children out of wedlock - Charles,'s brother John Todd of Finnich Malise, Drymen also had a number of illegitimate children.
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Scritsal, that would be Auchmar, now belongs to the Graham's. As to the middle class, despite their respectability & religiosity they were at it like rabbits! ;D
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I would also like to know if it was common for the Glasgow middle class at this time to have children out of wedlock - Charles,'s brother John Todd of Finnich Malise, Drymen also had a number of illegitimate children.
Double standards coming up: it was not all that common for the daughters of the middle class to have illegitimate children, and if they did have one it was discreetly hushed up and you don't usually find them, but it wasn't uncommon for the sons to sire a few by-blows.
I do have one wealthy landowning farmer in my tree who married respectably in 1847, had a legitimate family of seven between then and 1859, then deserted his wife and set up a home for his much younger mistress, who bore him six more children between 1872 and 1883. Most of them are registered with the surname of the mistress' husband, who had vanished some years before, though she does declare that he is not the father. About 1881 the errant farmer adopted another name and appears in the census in 1891 and 1901 with that surname, living with the mistress who is described as his wife. The real wife outlived him, but his will, executed in his real name, makes no reference at all to her or to any of his legitimate family.
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Thanks to you both. It just seems a little odd that Charles and his brother both had a number of children by the same partners over a number of years. Charles had 3 children by Margaret Buchanan over 8 years while John had 4 children by Ann Bruce over a period of 21 years, but neither of them seemed to get married. Is there anything to be read into the fact that Charles's children bore the surname Buchan's, while John's children kept the Todd name?
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.... I have plenty of information about the Todd's (they were a well known family who had many businesses in Bonhill,, Alexandria, Glasgow etc)., but I cannot find any information about the Buchanans. Was Margaret a servant to Charles, or was she related to the Buchanan tobacco lords?
Have you got Margaret and her children in the early censuses to give you more details on Margaret Buchanan?
Monica
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Charles & Margaret had 3 illegitimate children together - Mary, David and my ancestor Mary
Sorry, just checking there's no 'typo' with 2 Mary's?
Annie
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I found this re David Buchanan natural son of Charles Todd, Merchant, Glasgow dated 1844?
Seems a bit young at age 14 yrs regarding Accounts (I may be wrong), if he was born 1830.
This would need to be viewed at NRS (in-house), not available online.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01izp/
Reference; CS313
Title; Court of Session: Factory Processes, Accounts and Other Papers Connected Therewith
Date; 1739-1877
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Hi scritsal,
Just wondering whether you have baptisms for the 3 children with dates/places or are they circa dates?
Do you know where all 3 were born?
I'm unsure what this actually means;
"David born 1830 of Bragburgh Hall, Northants and Northfield House, Rugby (a well known cricketer of his time)"
Does this mean he lived there or was he born there?
If he was living there can you please give details of when/where & occupation (pre, during & post his Cricket days)?
Can you tell us how you arrived at the conclusion of Charles being the father please as it will help research further.
What are the suggestions of Charles being your ancestor pre the will?
Does his will give an address for Margaret or ages for his children?
Does it name them individually?
What I'm basically asking is, how do you know that Mary & mother Margaret are your ancestors & that there were 3 siblings apart from being named on the will?
I'm not doubting it but a mystery like this (to you) who has info. to follow is a bigger mystery for researchers who have no info. to follow, if that makes sense?
Can you please post as much definite info. you have please to help, names/dates/places & any references to your Buchanan people?
Annie
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I'm unsure what this actually means;
"David born 1830 of Bragburgh Hall, Northants and Northfield House, Rugby (a well known cricketer of his time)"
Does this mean he lived there or was he born there?
or that he came to own these properties in later life, and if so, how did he afford them?
I had a look at the England and Wales census and there is no David Tod(d) at Bragborough Hall or at Northfield House, Rugby in any of the censuses. In fact the only one who looks as if he could possibly be your David Todd, born 1830, is a 20-year-old student, born Alexandria, Dunbartonshire, lodging in Montague House, Great Malvern in 1851.
FamilySearch does not list the baptism of a David Todd in Dunbartonshire, but in the 1841 census there is a 10-year-old David Todd in Gas Street, Bonhill, Dunbartonshire in the household of Anne Todd, 35, independent and William Todd, 20, calico printer. So I don't think he is yours either.
Also tried a search for 'David Todd cricketer' but there are far too many listings of 20th and 21st century cricketers called David Todd that I quickly gave that up.
As Rosinish has said, if you haven't solved the mystery with all the information you have access to, it's even harder for us to solve it with less information.
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M.I. in Haddington
In memory of Sir David Davidson KCB Bombay Army and Colonel of The Queens Edinburgh Volr Brigade 2nd son of Henry Davidson born at Haddington 18th August 1811 died 18th May 1900
and of his wife Margaret for 50 years his devoted helpmeet born 22nd April 1822 died 12 November 1899 both interred here.
There is a marriage recorded in Kelso and Haddington 1849 for David Davidson to Margaret Buchanan
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From SP Wills
Buchanan
David
9/10/1900
of Northfield House, Rugby, Warwickshire
Probate of the will and codicil
non-Scottish Court
SC70/6/82
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Charles & Margaret had 3 illegitimate children together - Mary who married Colonel Sir David Davidson of Woodcroft, Edinburgh
Sancti,
Sorry I'm not quite following...Is this the marriage of the above to Margaret (not Mary)?
There is a marriage recorded in Kelso and Haddington 1849 for David Davidson to Margaret Buchanan
Annie
EDIT...Forgot to ask, is this the same David using 2 different surnames?
Buchanan
David
9/10/1900
of Northfield House, Rugby, Warwickshire
Probate of the will and codicil
non-Scottish Court
SC70/6/82
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Annie, I assumed Mary was a typo for Margaret
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So they went by their mother's name, not their father's?
There is a David Buchanan, aged 32, born Scotland, shown as what looks like Master (but could be Master of Arts as it's very blotted) of Clare College Cambridge and landholder, living in Harris Lodge, Selborne Road, Clifton-on-Dunsmore, Rugby with wife and several children. In 1871 he is at Northfield House, Newbold Road, Rugby, aged 41, described simply as MA Cambridge. This matches the 21-year-old student in Clare Hall College in 1851. I don't see him in 1881 or later.
He seems to have married Anna Wyndham Penruddocke in Pewsey, Wiltshire, in 1853. Have you got a copy of his marriage certificate? What does it say his father's name and occupation are?
The England and Wales Calendar of Probate says, "Buchanan David of Northfield-house Rugby Warwickshire died 30 May 1900. Probate London 13(?) September to Anna Buchanan widow and George Dalziel writer to the signet. Effects £33654 in the United Kingdom".
A Writer to the Signet is a specifically Scottish designation. There were three George Dalziels who were Writers to the Signet, father, son and grandson. The first died in 1869, and it's not clear whether the one referred to is the son (1843-1926) or grandson (1874-1947), but there is no obvious family connection between them and Todds or Buchanans. I wonder why David chose to appoint a Scottish lawyer with nor obvious family ties to be one of his executors?
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Annie, I assumed Mary was a typo for Margaret
I haven't had a reply to my original question whether there was a typo?
Can you please read my edit on above post & confirm?
Reply #11
confused.com ;D
Annie
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So they went by their mother's name, not their father's?
There is a David Buchanan, aged 32, born Scotland, shown as what looks like Master (but could be Master of Arts as it's very blotted) of Clare College Cambridge and landholder, living in Harris Lodge, Selborne Road, Clifton-on-Dunsmore, Rugby with wife and several children. In 1871 he is at Northfield House, Newbold Road, Rugby, aged 41, described simply as MA Cambridge. This matches the 21-year-old student in Clare Hall College in 1851. I don't see him in 1881 or later.
He seems to have married Anna Wyndham Penruddocke in Pewsey, Wiltshire, in 1853. Have you got a copy of his marriage certificate? What does it say his father's name and occupation are?
1891 he is still in Humbold Road, living on own means with wife Annie and family
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So they went by their mother's name, not their father's?
He seems to have married Anna Wyndham Penruddocke in Pewsey, Wiltshire, in 1853. Have you got a copy of his marriage certificate? What does it say his father's name and occupation are?
Good find Forfarian, the ball is rolling now ::)
Annie
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Annie, I assumed Mary was a typo for Margaret
I haven't had a reply to my original question whether there was a typo?
Can you please read my edit on above post & confirm?
Reply #11
confused.com ;D
Annie
David Buchanan brother of Margaret who married Colonel Sir David Davidson
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David Buchanan brother of Margaret who married Colonel Sir David Davidson
Thanks Sancti,
I'm back on track now ;D
1891 he is still in Humbold Road, living on own means with wife Annie and family
Forfarian, this may be a fact from your earlier thought...
or that he came to own these properties in later life, and if so, how did he afford them?
Annie
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1891 he is still in Humbold Road, living on own means with wife Annie and family
Ah, yes, there he is, indexed as Buchman. No wonder he didn't appear before!
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1891 he is still in Humbold Road, living on own means with wife Annie and family
Ah, yes, there he is, indexed as Buchman. No wonder he didn't appear before!
Ditto, I couldn't find him either ::)
Annie
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1891 census has Margaret (Buchanan) Davidson born in Kinross
Name: Margaret Davidson
Age: 68
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's name : David Davidson
Where born: Kinross
Registration district: Newington
Civil Parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts
County: Midlothian
Address: Woodcroft
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1881 and 1871 and 1861 have her born in Lanark, Lanarkshire
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??? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYKD-YTL
Margaret Buchanan b 1824 Kinross
Annie
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A few in Lanark ?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01j04/
Annie
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Don't think any seem right though from familysearch
Annie
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??? https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYKD-YTL
Margaret Buchanan b 1824 Kinross
Annie
To confuse things further, in 1851 she gives her place of birth as Glasgow
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Wow, thanks for all your input. I hand't expected so much interest. Apologies for the typo regarding Margaret/Mary Buchanan. The 3 children of Charles Todd and Mary Buchanan are:
Margaret Buchanan born 22.4.1822 Lanarkshire, married Colonel Sir David Davidson on 2.9.1849 in Kelso, died 12.11.1899 Edinburgh.
Mary Buchanan born 1828/1829 (estimated from census records) Lanarkshire,married William Middlemass 27.111848 London, died 21.1.1927 Hampstead.
David Buchanan born 16.1.1830 Edinburgh, married Anna Wyndham Penruddocke 29.9.1853 Pewsey, died 30.5.1900 Rugby.
My g-grandparents were Godfrey Critchley-Salmonson and Caroline Middlemass. Caroline was born 26.12.1852 at Monkrigg, Haddington. She was the daughter of William Middlemass and Mary Buchanan. William was born 4.2.1808 at Dunbar ( the son of the Provost of Dunbar Christopher Middlemass)
George Dalziel WS appears to have dealt with all the legal matters of both the Middle mass and Todd families. He is an executer in all the family wills. The records of Cambridge University show David Buchanan as the ward of George Dalziel..
David and Anna had 11children - the first 4 (up to 1847) were born at Bragburgh Hall, Northants, the rest at Northfield House, Rugby.
I have not been able to find any of the birth or baptism records for Margaret, Mary or David - nor any 1841 census (apart from David who was at Rugby School in 1841).
Charles Todd had a number of siblings. One of these was a sister named Arthur! She appears to have acted as some sort of guardian. she was witness at their marriages, and in fact David's wedding certificate shows him living at her house Broomlands, Kelso. When Arthur died in 1862, she also left a considerable amount of money to her three neices, this time also naming their respective spouces in the will.
Hope this gives you something to go on. I have much more information which I will post later including more details of the Glasgow Herald article!
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Hello Scritsal
What a surprise. Margaret Buchanan was my husband's 3xgGrandmother. David the cricketer's son David Penruddock came to NZ via Australia and we are 3rd generation farmers of his original land.
We have limited knowledge of "the mystery" but apparentally Margaret was a mill girl and had her first child at approx 12 or 13!! She was from Bridge on Allen and known locally as Mrs Todd. She is on the 1841 census with David in Edinburgh. Arthur brought the girls up to give them a better chance in society and they were educated at Henley on Thames. Margaret married a minister after Charles's death from scarlett fever in Paris. There is a headstone in Dean Cemetery Edinburgh for Margaret Buchanan and Thomas Calderwood. We were told Charles would be disinherited if he married Margaret. Jean Davidson came to NZ in late 60's and left written knowledge of what she knew of "the mystery". Hopefully we will find out where Margaret ended her days.
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Hi Susanne, I am so pleased to hear from you. I have been struggling with the Buchanan "mystery" for years, and you have answered so many questions already! I would be thrilled to learn anything more that you can tell me about your husband's family. As you can see from my earlier posts, I have so much information on Charles Todd and his family, but could never get any further back than Margaret Buchanan. Was the Jean Davidson that you mention a descendant of Col Sir David Davidson and his wife Margaret Buchanan? Do you know if her notes are available on line anywhere? Do you have an on-line family tree yourself? My tree can be found on Ancestry - the tree name is SCC241~1. I think you should be able to view it. The newspaper article about Charles's embalming has always fascinated me!! Are you still researching your husband's family? If so, I would be delighted to share any information that I find with the new information that you have provided. Hope to hear from you soon. Simon
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Hello Simon, I too am delighted to find a "Margaret mystery" distant cousin. I have been looking for Margaret for aprox 3 years along with a genealogist friend . I am a complete novice and only by luck I found this site. Answers to questions: Yes Jean Davidson was a descendant of Sir David Davidson and I will get her notes retyped to send to you and are not on line.No we have no family tree online. Google The Carlyle Letters to read about Sir David Davidson's friendship with Jane Carlyle and some interesting facts about him. Yes still researching and I won't rest until we find Margaret's resting place.
We thought Charles Todd was buried in Paris due to the scarlett fever and I would have thought he would have been embalmed in Paris due to infection control. My friend Barb thinks Margaret maybe from Campsie near Stirling and that Margaret and Charles set up house in Bridge of Allan. If we find her marriage certificate to the minister we will get her father's name. It seemed strange that the headstone in Dean Cemetery had a maiden name; of course if that is her!! We have very little information about Charles Todd. Thank you for your family tree information. I am not on ancestry at present but Barb will print it off for me. It will be a pleasure to share information with you too.
I think I have a photograph of Caroline Middlemass and what a beautiful young woman she was.
Well Simon that's all for now. I am happy for RootsChat to release my email to you if that is allowed. Margaret is very elusive but we WILL find her. Susanne
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Hi Susanne, I've been doing a bit of digging. I have found a marriage entry for Thomas Calderwood and Margaret Buchanan on 11th Oct 1840 at St. Andrews Church, Edinburgh. Thomas' occupation is given as a "wright" living at 7 North Saint David Street, Edinburgh, while Margaret was living at 29 George St, Edinburgh. Her father's name is given as JAMES (deceased). This would appear to be our descendants - I can't find any other Calderwood/Buchanan marriages anywhere. I have also come across a death entry for Thomas Calderwood in June 1848 at 6 North Saint Andrews Street, Edinburgh age 51 (cabinet maker) - this matches the grave in Dean Cemetery. They are both listed in the 1841 census at Rose St., Edinburgh, although as you say Margaret also appears to be listed with David at another address - was she registered twice. This is throwing up more questions than answers!! I have also managed to get a copy of the will of "Margaret Buchanan or Calderwood straw hat maker and milliner of North St Andrew St, Edinburgh" who died 11th Nov 1848 - just a few months after Thomas. The will gives details of her sister Catharine (spouse of George Ross) and brothers James and William, so it looks like we are getting somewhere, but there is still a lot of digging to do! I believe that in Scots law, a wife does not legally take her husbands name (although they normally are known as Mrs ***) this would explain the gravestone. I have many documents that I could send you, but think this is easier by e-mail, however I understand that after 3 posts, we can exchange personal messages! If you reply to this, I will send a PM with my contact details on. Hope to hear from you soon.
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Hello Simon, Barb has come up with the same details except the wills. Our delight was tempered with sadness with Margaret's early death after finding a "legal husband" and we feel they may have died from the cholera/fever epidemic at that time. Margaret likely infected from nursing Thomas and hence the few months between their deaths. New cemeteries were opened to cope with numbers one of which was Deans. No vicar as per Jean Davidson's notes. But as Chinese whispers happen one of his family may have been ordained. The Calderwood family have many Presbyterian ministers back to the 15th Century. You have done so well Simon. You asked re my husband Ross's family and David Penruddocke married Marianne Mein born Channel Is and of St Andrew Devon in NZ in 1887. David knew her from Warwickshie through Lady Warwick and we are on the Plantaganet roll through Anna Wyndham his mother.( but nobody is very impressed by that!) Marianne died in1898.
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It seemed strange that the headstone in Dean Cemetery had a maiden name
That is normal practice in Scotland. Headstones without a married woman's maiden surname are unusual.
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Hello Forfarian and thank you for that information. It certainly makes tracking relatives down much easier; and here I was thinking this is TOO obvious and probably not our Margaret. What a wonderful website. The angel of genealogy was sitting on my shoulder the day I accidentally came across it.
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Related thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=829513.0
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To Skoosh and Lodger and Burr ?
Sorry I have lost the page but Charles Todd is buried in his father's lair ie David Todd and Elizabeth Todd was deported to Ryegate Vermont for a percieved indiscretion by her father and she married James Henderson. Google History of Ryegate Vermont USA for further details.
Charles Todd had a mistress Margaret Buchanan and they had 3 children Margaret Mary and David Buchanan Margaret married Sir David Davidson, Mary married William Middlemass a surgeon for the East India Company and David married Anna Wyndham Penruddocke and lived at Rugby and was a renowned cricketer. His son David emigrated to NZ and farmed stud Hereford cattle and Romney sheep. He is my husband's Grandfather.
We thought Charles was buried in Paris due to dying with Scarlett fever but was embalmed and now
in Ramshorn Cemetery. I can find no information on where Margaret is buried but she did marry Alexander Bate (1799-1846) in 1844. He died in Tranent and Margaret died on 12/11/1849 in Portobello .
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Thanks all for your input - especially Lodger for spending his day researching the Ramshorn/St. David's burying records! A question: the date is 1803; would that be the date of his death/burial or the date he purchased the lair? Suzanne, here is a question for you: Can you tell me more about Elizabeth's deportation? I have a date of 1805, later than 1803. I have the History of Ryegate book and am wondering whether all of its information is accurate. Part of the legend that I have is that her father, David, staged a mock funeral for her and if that were true one would think an empty coffin would have been in her father's lair. Do you have any further information about the "perceived indiscretion"? Is Scritsal on this reply? Scritsal indicated having plenty of information about the Todds. Many thanks.
Burr
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Hi Burr,
You ask about the 1803 date. In my experience this usually refers to the date the lair was purchased or the year that the owner had the marker erected. The wording suggests that it could be either.
It cannot be assumed that this is the year of death for David, although the lair may have been purchased because a new born infant had died in the family and the plaque erected as a marker.
At this period in time (late 18th & early 19th century) there is much evidence from kirk sessions records of the Heritors instructing parishioners already in possession of lairs in the parochial churchyards and burial grounds to "mark their spots" as there had been so many disputes over existing lairs and also strangers (by that they meant newcomers) taking space that didn't belong to them.
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Thank you, Lodger. Very helpful.
Burr
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Hello Lodger and Burr
David Todd's dates: 1751-1835 and no Scritsal is not on reply. I have emailed recently but no reply yet.
Like you Burr I envisaged and empty coffin and ? a headstone for Elizabeth. In a nutshell Elizabeth had a young man in the army about to go to India and she visited the barracks chaperoned by a married couple, when a violent storm appeared and they all had to stay there overnight.
David did not approve of the young man and on her return home said she had shamed them and sent her with her maid to Ryegate to a family there. He provided money for her keep and when she eventually married James Henderson,
David was so pleased he increased the amount of money.
He never saw Elizabeth again but when Arthur Charles Todd's sister died she left Elizabeth money.
For more info buy online the book The Safe Bridge by Frances Parkinson Keyes published by Corgi in 1970.
Although it appears to be fiction Frances knew several of Elizabeth's descendants and much is based on truth. Elizabeth arrived in Ryegate on 26/10/1805 and died on 21/10/1846 aged 58 and is buried at Ryegate. She was described as the " little Scotch lady" and was very kind. Obviously not inher
ited from her Father !!
David Todd did not recognise Margaret Buchanan either or her children and in Charles Todd's will she was to live 15 miles from Glasgow or lose her inheritance. Charles was obviously aware of his Father's rigid manner and feared for any association with his family.
John Todd, Charle's elder brother ended up with the Todd money as he lived the longest and had large bequests from Charles and Arthur and lived at Finnich Malise a large estate near Loch Lomond that was sold recently for several million.
I have just researched a book with the help of a genealogist friend on the descendants of David Buchanan and of course Todd information. We were to have a family reunion at the end of May, but due to Covid19 it will perhaps be next year . Scritsal has kindly shared information but may have much more on the Todds Burr. Check with him. I am sending him a copy but the Printers closed when it was about to be printed. I hope this helps and keep safe everyone.
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Dear Rootschat friends,
Thank you all for your insights so far. I am also interested in David Todd's wife, Jane. The book The Safe Bridge indicates that she was related to Sir Walter Scott. Can anyone confirm? Also, Scritscal indicates he/she has a lot on the Todd family but I am a new user to RootsChat and do not know how to loop him/her in on the conversation. Can anyone facilitate?
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Hi all, sorry for the slow reply. Thanks Forfarian for the “heads up” on this new post, and well done Skoosh for remembering my original post.
Burr, I am guessing perhaps that you may be descended from Hugh Gardener who married one of Elizabeth Todd’s daughters? If so, I imagine that you have more information than us about Elizabeth’s circumstances - both Susanne and myself would be very interested to get any further details. Susanne has already told you everything we know so far.
As far as the Todd family themselves are concerned, most of my information is about their business interests in Scotland. Valeofleven.org.uk has some interesting details.
I have recently moved home, so a lot of my original notes are still packed away in a box somewhere. I do have copies of the wills of David, his sons Charles and John, and his daughter Arthur which I can let you have if you are interested. David doesn’t mention Elizabeth at all in his will, but the children do mention their estranged sister. The “mock funeral” that you mention sounds interesting, and I suppose that the 1803date when David purchased his lair at Ramshorn would fit??? I am intrigued as to why the lair would have been transferred to Margaret Todd in 1823. The only Margaret that seems to be connected with the Todds is Charles Todd’s partner Margaret Buchanan whom he never married (Susanne and myself are descended from Charles and Margaret). The mystery of why most of David’s children never married have been mentioned in previous posts and remain a puzzle.
The ancestors and descendants of David that I am aware of are in my public Ancestry.com tree “Critchley-Salmonson” (with the usual possibility of errors). I can send ancestor/descendant lists directly to you if you send me a private message.
The ancestors include many well known Scottish families such as yhe Yuilles, Bogles, Arthurs and Scotts. I have not been able to find any connection with Sir Walter Scott yet!
I’ll send more information if I find any.
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Other folks skeletons are always of interest but you guys can also try out the "Private Message" service. Just click on their user-name! ;D
Todd's partner in Springfield plus a possible Todd Scott connection in these two houses,
www.glasgowwestaddress.co.uk/Old_Country_Houses/Belvidere.htm
www.glasgowwestaddress.co.uk/Old_Country_Houses/Daldowie.htm
Skoosh.
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Dear Scritsal,
Yes, I am indeed a descendant of Elizabeth Todd and Hugh Gardner. I have read The Safe Bridge at least twice and for the last couple of weeks have been trying to wade through discrepancies, including those contained in 1) handwritten family history, 2) the Gazetteer of Orange County Vt., 1762-1888, 3) A History of Newbury, Vermont and 4) A History of Ryegate, Vermont. I have come up with my own patched-together theory which serves only to allow me to make sense of some pretty sensational tales. I found a painting of one of the Todd factories which got me to wondering how David Todd financed his industries. I immediately thought he must have come from money, but could find no earlier documentation on his family beyond names and dates on www.geneanet.org. There are a couple of fabric-related companies bearing his name which seem to have been confiscated, so perhaps they were not all successful - or there were as many corporate machinations then as now! I also came upon a reference to some of the Todd fabrics being in the Scotland National Museum and in the Victoria & Albert Museum, but could not confirm by going to those museums' websites, so think I will not include in the family chronicle. Yes, the 1803 lair purchase/claim date would have been a convenient repository for an empty coffin but the marker is no help in that regard. Scritsal, Suzanne, Lodger and all my Rootschat friends, thank you so much for your contributed information. This has been an interesting journey!
Burrgard
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I wonder if they bought lairs in the new Necropolis Cemetery so gave up the Ramshorn graves?
Skoosh.
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Very close, Skoosh, but not exactly. The necropolis does not have a grave for either Elizabeth (my supposedly exiled ancestor) nor her father, David Todd. However, David Todd's great grandson, David Todd born in 1856, is buried there along with his wife, Mary Louisa Stewart. The lineage goes like this: David Todd, the industrialist, had a son, John, older brother of Elizabeth, my ancestor. John had a son that he named David, likely after his father, and that David also had a son that he named David. So it is this last David that is in the necropolis.
Thanks for the suggestion; you sent me to find another relative!
Burrgard
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Sue, Im guessing that you have the same information about this that i have given that I descend from David Buchanan through DP and Geoff.
The story that I had was that David Todd threatened to disinherit the boys if they married the mothers of their children.
Charles died before his father on a tour of the continent and as such had no chance to marry or legitimise his children. John survived the father and as such inherited, married and legitimised.
DP Buchanan - was married twice 1. Marianne Mein, 2. Florence Watkins from which the Beaconsfield Buchanans and issue descend.
There have always been a bunch of stories floating around and while some are easy to verify others are not nearly so. Tracking back through generations can be nigh on impossible unless you have paperwork or a family bible to look at. This is because a large part of the population was nigh on illiterate quite a different story than our modern times. Based on this Id guess that both Todd and Buchanan families would be from the surrounding area.
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Hello Tony
Belatedly: Margaret Buchanan was from a farming family in Bonhill and worked in the cotton mill that was owned by the Todds Possibly the Bonhill Printworks in the Vale of Leven. and met Charles Todd there.
He was based in Glasgow and associated with the Todd Higginbottom Springfield Mill and had several residential addresses according to Census records.
Charles and Margaret lived as man and wife at Bridge of Allan and Margaret was called Mrs Todd and the 3 children the Todd children.
Unfortunately Charles did not give his name to David when he attended Rugby school as David Buchanan, probably to shelter him from the brand of illegitamacy, and the family lawyer, George Dalziel was named as his Guardian.
The girls Mary and Margaret were Buchanan when they went under the guardianship of Arthur, Charle's sister. Once again to appease a very critical society and aquire respectable marriages.
I think most of that is in the book Tony.
Hope the jigsaw is falling into place for you.
Susanne
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Hi Susanne, yes I received the book. Both mum and I found it very interesting and insightful. There’s a lot of information you have there that we had no idea was able to be found. I will message you directly as there’s a wee bit more that I have found recently. Not so much for the Buchanan side but more for the distaff line. Ngā Mihi Tony
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Margaret married a minister after Charles's death from scarlett fever in Paris. There is a headstone in Dean Cemetery Edinburgh for Margaret Buchanan and Thomas Calderwood.
The marriage record of Thomas Calderwood and Margaret Buchanan in Edinburgh Parish Register reads as follows
Edinburgh, 12th October 1840. Proclaimed 11th October 1840. Thomas Calderwood, Wright, residing No 7 South St David Street, St Andrew's Parish, and Margaret Buchanan, residing No 29 George Street, same Parish, daughter of the late James Buchanan, Smith, have been three times Proclaimed in order to Marriage in the Parish Church of Saint Andrew's and no objections have been offered. Married at Edinburgh on the 15th day of October 1840 by the Rev William Nisbet, Minister of New Street Church.
So this Margaret Buchanan's husband was not a minister. (There is no record of a minister named Thomas Calderwood at https://www.ecclegen.com/general-index-introduction/ which despite its title does include all ministers of the Church of Scotland.)
And if Charles died in 1841, he was still living when Margaret Buchanan married Thomas Calderwood.
The fact that Margaret Buchanan or Calderwood and Margaret Buchanan, presumably the mother of David, are both listed in the 1841 census does suggest that they are two different Margaret Buchanans.
So in the face of two original records suggesting otherwise, what definite evidence do you have to prove that Thomas Calderwood's wife was Charles Todd's mistress?
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Hello Forfarian
Thank you for the message but that was very old details we had and on 25/2/21 I asked for help in finding Margaret and Alexander Bate her husband, married 5/3/1844, where their graves were.
He died at Tranent 1/8/1846 and Margaret at Portobello on 12/11/1849.
I have searched Cemetery records to no avail.
Thank you
Susanne
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on 25/2/21 I asked for help in finding Margaret and Alexander Bate her husband, married 5/3/1844, where their graves were.
No doubt you did, but it wasn't in this thread and I have not seen that request. There is no previous reference in this thread to Alexander Bate, and there are no posts in this thread between 3 May 1820 and 18 September 2021.
May I assume, then, that you have abandoned the idea that it was 'your' Margaret Buchanan who married Thomas Calderwood?
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Hello Forfarian
Thank you for your input but I realised quite a while ago that our Margaret was not Calderwood's wife.
One of the roads we enter searching for people .
Margaret married Alexander Bate and the only mystery now is where they are buried.
It was kind of you to find out those facts anyway.
Susanne
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That's fine. Glad you've got it sorted out.
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Dear RootsChat Friends,
I am back on the trail of the Todd Family, which many were so kind to contribute to last year. Full disclosure: depending upon how much material I can garner I would like to write an historical novel about these most interesting ancestors.
Here are my current lines of inquiry:
• We know that David Todd was a very successful cotton mill operator. Where did he get the money to build his mills? I found a reference to a purchase of land by John (likely David’s father because his son, John, was only 5 yrs old at the time) and David. So, was John wealthy enough to help David buy the land? If so, how did he come by his wealth?
• Skoosh, you were kind enough to provide links to two articles concerning “Todd’s partner in Springfield.” However, I don’t know the name of this partner (several names are included in the articles). Could the partner have been the money behind the mill ventures?
• Scritsal, you say you have plenty of information on the Todds. I am hoping that you know a lot about their businesses that you are willing to share. John and Charles were in partnership with their father. What about David’s other children? Were they also partners?
• Scritsal, you mention the finding of the glass bottle in the Buchanan’s Lair 50 of Ramshorn cemetery with instructions for the embalmment of Charles Todd in Paris in 1841. What is the date on the article? This has got to be the connection to Margaret Buchanan; it would be too much of a coincidence otherwise. My question is: weren’t those lairs expensive, for the “gentry,” implying that the Buchanans were people of means? If so, it contrasts with of Susanne Buchanan’s statement that Margaret was laborer in one of the Todd mills, only 12 or 13 at the time she and Charles got together.
• What was Charles doing in Paris in 1840? At the time, he is 49 years old, long past the customary age for affluent young people’s “Grand Tour” of the time.
• I found an Ancestry entry indicating that George Todd (David’s youngest son) may have been in New York City in the summer of 1837. Can anyone confirm that he was and, if so, what he was doing there? Conversely, does anyone have any evidence that he could NOT have been there? I am inclined to believe that he was because the document has the same middle name (Sidney), lists birthplace as Scotland, occupation as weaver, and age as “abt 32” (he was 33).
• Susanne notes that John (eldest son of David) ended up with large inheritances from Charles (who was also his business partner, along with their father, David) and his sister Arthur. Was Arthur a partner in the business as well? If not, where did her money come from? Was she ever married and perhaps inherited from her husband?
• Can anyone confirm Scritsal’s assertion that under 19th century Scots law a wife did not legally take her husband’s name?
• Tony Frith, you mention that David’s eldest son, John, did marry the mother of his children after his father’s death. Do you have any support? Perhaps a marriage document?
• Susanne, you mention researching a book that has Todd family information in it. Can you share the name of the book and how I can obtain it?
• I have a bit of a conundrum on which I invite input: David Todd’s father on Ancestry shows up as Cornelius, David being born in 1864.
o However, there is a John Todd, closely related to David’s business dealings, which I have assumed to be his father. David’s first son was named John and tradition was that the first son was named for the father’s father: http://www.happyhaggis.co.uk/births.htm
o Susanne gives David’s birthdate as 1851. This date makes a whole lot more sense, since in 1773 David signs a contract for an investment. If he were born in 1864 he would have been a bit young to do so, being only 9 years old. If he was born in 1851 he would have been 21 or 22. Susanne, do you have names of David’s parents or any documentation on his birthdate?
Many thanks in advance.
BurrGardner
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Hello Burr, the Ramshorn Kirk's burial ground was jam packed so the merchants bought the hill above the cathedral and laid out The Necropolis. The Ramshorn was not for the working class.
The first Highland Society in Glasgow was that of the Clan Buchanan, websites below.
https://www.ramshorn.co.uk
http://www.buchanansociety.com
Cheers,
Skoosh.
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Can anyone confirm Scritsal’s assertion that under 19th century Scots law a wife did not legally take her husband’s name?
Under Scots Law a wife is not obliged to take her husband's surname, and to this day a married woman is named in legal documents as xxx yyy or zzz, where xxx is her given name(s), yyy her maiden surname and zzz her husband's surname. So yes, I think I would agree with Scritsal.
Except that by the late 19th century most married women did, in practice, use their husband's surname.
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I have a bit of a conundrum on which I invite input: David Todd’s father on Ancestry shows up as Cornelius, David being born in 1864.
Don't trust anything you find on Ancestry, MyHeritage or any other commercial web site unless it's an image of an original document.
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Hello Burr
How interesting you are thinking of writing a book on the Todds. Good luck with that.
Scritsal has a copy of the book compiled for our Buchanan Reunion last October.
Answers to questions :
Arthur was not married but brought up Charles and Margaret Buchanan's daughters on Charle's death in Paris from Scarlett fever while about to embark on the Grand Tour with his daughter Margaret.
Arthur inherited a large sum of money on Charle's death to take care of his family. Scritsal has copies of Charles and Arthurs wills. Arthur was independantly wealthy probably from her Father and had a large home Broadlands in Kelso . She was not a partner in the mills that I am aware of.
David Todd was a cotton merchant and had a warehouse in Glasgow before building the mills so there would have been equity there.
I will forward your questions to my genealogy friend Barbara who researched much of the information on the Todds and she may help with information.
Best wishes
Susanne
Susanne
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This October there will be an inauguration of the first Buchanan chief since the 17th century. John Michael Baillie Hamilton Buchanan is the man, no mention in the paper of a free bar. ;D
Bests,
Skoosh.
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Hello Skoosh
Thanks for the heads up but a bit off the radar for us down here in NZ at present. Too many forms, swabs and general indecisiveness with travel. BUT I will get the local Buchanans for a whisky soiree to wish the new Chief well.
We have a bus load of the Buchanans from our Reunion and book launch last October wanting to tour the places we have discovered in Scotland and UK pertaining to the Todds and Buchanans. Perhaps we could drop in for a wee dram with the Chief !!!
Thanks again
Susanne
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Susan, this clan chief in waiting has awarded himself no less than two hyphens which is quite preposterous so I omitted them. ;D
However, Buchanan's Black & White Whisky would do the trick whatever the circumstances. ;D
Bests.
Skoosh.
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Scritsal,
In earlier communication I believe you said you had a lot of information on the Todd businesses. I am receptive to wahtever you may be able to forward to me as I am making headway on my historical novel about the Todds and would like to include as much fact as possible.
Thank you.
Burrgardner