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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: DavyTee68 on Thursday 07 December 17 14:02 GMT (UK)
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Long Post so bear with me please.
My Father and Grandfather always told me as a small lad that my Great Grandfather William Turner died in 1915 WW1 Ypres. After six years of searching and hiring a professional genealogist just recently I am still no further in proving this. All military records that are available have been searched online and in records office. All war memorials within a very large radius of his and his families last know addresses have been looked at. There is absolutely nothing on this man serving in the armed forces during that period. There is no record of a pension for his wife.
There are a number of discrepancies that make me wonder if he ever served at all and that indeed the story was made up to cover up some other true story that the family may have been ashamed of.
One is the fact that he was 52 in 1915 and in a reserved occupation as a miner. I have seen other records of men in their 40's who were refused entry due to age at that time. So I doubt a 52 year old would have been snapped up at the very beginning of the war.
After 1901 Census he disappears never to be seen again. On the 1911 Census his wife and children are on there but the words Widow and Head have been filled in by the enumerator this can be proved by checking the handwriting at the bottom of census that the enumerator filled in. Whereas, the rest of the form was filled in by his wife. She also states that she has been married 18 Years which is the exact time period to the date 1911 to when they married in Dec 1892 so unless he died like the week before the census this is very suspect. He could of course have been down the mines at the time the census was taking. Thus missing him off.
I'm asking if anyone can find this man before I give up on him completely. There are some amazing people on here that may just be able to do this.
He is as follows:
William Turner (b) 1864 Seaham/Seaton Colliery, Co Durham.
Married to Martha Isabella Cowie (b) 1870 Sunderland, Co Durham
His father was John Morland Turner (b) 1844 married to Mary Jane Fretker (b) 1847
1901 Census that he appears on
Piece:4667
Folio:30
Page Number:52
Household schedule number:310
The 1911 Census that he is missing from
Registration district:Gateshead
Registration District Number:557
Sub-registration district:Winlaton
ED, institution, or vessel:21
Piece:30528
Any more info just ask if interested in helping
Thanks for reading
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On the 1911 Census his wife and children are on there but the words Widow and Head have been filled in by the enumerator this can be proved by checking the handwriting at the bottom of census that the enumerator filled in.
Not sure what you mean by 'the bottom of the census that the enumerator filled in'? Is this the bottom right of the form? This is where the head of household signed and wrote their address.
The fact that it says the marriage has lasted 18 years doesn't necessarily imply that William was still alive. People often mis-interpreted the questions on the census form. Martha could have thought it was simply asking how many years it was since she got married.
There is the death of a William Turner born c.1864 in Lanchester R.D. in the first quarter of 1906. Have you checked this one?
No, that doesn't work, as his youngest son appears to have been born in the 3rd quarter of 1907 ::)
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On the 1911 Census his wife and children are on there but the words Widow and Head have been filled in by the enumerator this can be proved by checking the handwriting at the bottom of census that the enumerator filled in.
Not sure what you mean by 'the bottom of the census that the enumerator filled in'? Is this the bottom right of the form? This is where the head of household signed and wrote their address.
The fact that it says the marriage has lasted 18 years doesn't necessarily imply that William was still alive. People often mis-interpreted the questions on the census form. Martha could have thought it was simply asking how many years it was since she got married.
There is the death of a William Turner born c.1864 in Lanchester R.D. in the first quarter of 1906. Have you checked this one?
No, that doesn't work, as his youngest son appears to have been born in the 3rd quarter of 1907 ::)
If you look at the word Head and Widow it is in the same handwriting as the enumerator bottom left corner (i think im in the car so cant check right now ) not in Martha's hand writing thus been added later on.
The professional Genealogist agreed with me on that one lol
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if you look at the word Head and Widow it is in the same handwriting as the enumerator not in Martha's hand writing thus been added later on.
Where did you find the example of the enumerator's handwriting for comparison?
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if you look at the word Head and Widow it is in the same handwriting as the enumerator not in Martha's hand writing thus been added later on.
Where did you find the example of the enumerator's handwriting for comparison?
His signature bottom left corner the H is identical to the H in Head
I'll check when I get home 🖒
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Yes, I agree that Martha did not fill in the "widow" and "head" words on the 1911 census form.
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Yes, I agree that Martha did not fill in the "widow" and "head" words on the 1911 census form.
Thanks Liz
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Would it be ok to put the full report the Genealogist sent to me just so you can all see what she did/didn't find ?
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Who was the informant on this birth certificate. What information does it give for the father
TURNER, JOHN GEORGE mmn COWEY
1907 Sept Quarter
LANCHESTER RD 10A 377
Would it be ok to put the full report the Genealogist sent to me just so you can all see what she did/didn't find ?
It would be better if you just gave a brief summary.
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Yes, I agree that Martha did not fill in the "widow" and "head" words on the 1911 census form.
Thanks Liz
DavyTee I don’t dispute for a moment that there is different handwriting on the form ( in fact I think there are perhaps three different hands on there) I was simply questioning how you knew that it had been written by the enumerator.
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If you are viewing the records on Ancestry after each form (click right arrow) there is a part of the front page of the schedule where the enumerator has filled in householder's name and address. No H's to compare unfortunately.
Looks like the whole household had a go at this form - isn't it a mess!
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I was intrigued so have had a look.
I am not convinced that the enumerator filled anything in other than his initials. As has been said, there seems to be a few styles there.
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Who was the informant on this birth certificate. What information does it give for the father
TURNER, JOHN GEORGE mmn COWEY
1907 Sept Quarter
LANCHESTER RD 10A 377
Would it be ok to put the full report the Genealogist sent to me just so you can all see what she did/didn't find ?
It would be better if you just gave a brief summary.
I don't have John George Turner birth certificate my Gradfather was William Turner John's older brother
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Yes, I agree that Martha did not fill in the "widow" and "head" words on the 1911 census form.
Thanks Liz
DavyTee I don’t dispute for a moment that there is different handwriting on the form ( in fact I think there are perhaps three different hands on there) I was simply questioning how you knew that it had been written by the enumerator.
Sorry Jen Thanking Liz wasn't a dig at you I was just being polite for her input I do apologise you're my number 1 geneology hero :D
I'm just assuming it's the enumerator as his initials are the same H as Head
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He could of course have been down the mines at the time the census was taking. Thus missing him off.
If he was at work at the time the census was to be taken he could still be enumerated at his normal dwelling place, according to the instructions given to the enumerator.
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Sorry Jen Thanking Liz wasn't a dig at you I was just being polite for her input I do apologise you're my number 1 geneology hero :D
Maybe the rest of us should leave it to Jen then ;D ;D
John Georges birth certificate may indicate that the father was not there then :-\
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Maybe the rest of us should leave it to Jen then ;D ;D
Definitely not ;D
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Sorry Jen Thanking Liz wasn't a dig at you I was just being polite for her input I do apologise you're my number 1 geneology hero :D
Maybe the rest of us should leave it to Jen then ;D ;D
Sorry Rosie you're my Joint no 1 Genealogy hero
I'm getting into a lot of trouble here
I love you all that's why ive turned to you :-*
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Jen will probably know this - are there street directories/electoral registers available for this area at that time :-\
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There are some electoral registers, but they are arranged by streets not by people's names.
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I was thinking maybe checking the address the family were at on census just in case he was listed.
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Here's a condensed version of the report:
With regard to your research into William TURNER who was born in Seaton Colliery in 1864, I have been unable to find his whereabouts in the 1911 census. I have searched online at the following sites, without success:
•Ancestry
•Find My Past
•My Heritage
•The Genealogist
I searched for possible first and surname variants, again without success.
I did find a possible death entry where the age at death matched an approximate birth year of 1864, however when the certificate arrived it was in respect of a different William TURNER. I also searched for a possible re-marriage of William TURNER after the birth of his youngest child. Several marriages were located however when I looked for these couples in the 1911 census, none of them matched the birth year/place of your William TURNER.
I then moved on to searching the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for a possible death of your William TURNER in WW1. I located an entry – which I believe you referred to when we met – in respect of a William TURNER who is shown as having been born in Rotherham and who served in the DLI. I located his military record on the Ancestry website and after looking at this in detail, I do not believe he is your William TURNER. Not only is his birth year different, but there is a letter in the record (copy attached) that shows his wife was E A TURNER.
As your nephew believes that William died in 1917, I have run a further search of the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website for all deaths of a W TURNER between 1 Jan 1917 and 1 Jan 1918. There were numerous results, some of which show the age at death, some of which don’t. Unfortunately, I have simply run out of time to look further at all of these however it may be worth your while looking at these if you have not already done so. The link is as follows https://www.cwgc.org/find/find-war-dead/results?initial=w&lastName=turner&dateFrom=01-01-1917&dateTo=01-01-1918 If you click on each possible individual, you may often find mention of their grave and/or family members which may help you determine whether any of these are your William TURNER. Alternatively, if no such information is given, if you find mention of the individuals’ regiments/soldier numbers, you could then – if you have a subscription to Ancestry or Find My Past it may – search for the individuals’ military records on there in order to try and determine whether any of them is your William.
The above concludes your TURNER research. I appreciate how disappointing it will be to you that I have not solved your mystery as to William’s whereabouts in the 1911 census or his death information. All I could now suggest is for you to look for the marriage entries in respect of William & Martha’s children and see whether it shows whether William was deceased at that time; this would help narrow down when he died. There is, of course, no guarantee that the entry would indicate whether he was deceased.
On my Grandfather's Marriage certificate 1928 he has stated fathers occupation as Miner rather than saying Deceased so I'm not its worth paying for further Marriage certs for the above
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All I could now suggest is for you to look for the marriage entries in respect of William & Martha’s children and see whether it shows whether William was deceased at that time; this would help narrow down when he died. There is, of course, no guarantee that the entry would indicate whether he was deceased.
Have you done this, if so what did you find
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I did find a possible death entry where the age at death matched an approximate birth year of 1864, however when the certificate arrived it was in respect of a different William TURNER.
That deals with the death I mentioned in reply #1
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All I could now suggest is for you to look for the marriage entries in respect of William & Martha’s children and see whether it shows whether William was deceased at that time; this would help narrow down when he died. There is, of course, no guarantee that the entry would indicate whether he was deceased.
Have you done this, if so what did you find
Just put this above as you were posting
On my Grandfather's Marriage certificate 1928 he has stated fathers occupation as Miner rather than saying Deceased so I'm not sure its worth paying for further Marriage certs for the above
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And I would have to find out who John George Turner married
I have found a possibility
John G Turner (m) Christina P D Hamilton 1929 Lanchester 10a 511 1st Qtr
But ive really no idea who he married
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I only got the report two days ago as well Rosie so haven't had time to order certs
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Looking at that report it makes me realise how thorough we are on rootschat, it does not look as though there is anything other than the purchase of the certificate that we could not have found. ;D ;D
I would be looking to see if you can find him in street directories/electoral registers around the time he 'left'
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Looking at that report it makes me realise how thorough we are on rootschat, it does not look as though there is anything other than the purchase of the certificate that we could not have found. ;D ;D
I'm afraid I have to agree with you. I hope you didn't pay over the odds for that.
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Looking at that report it makes me realise how thorough we are on rootschat, it does not look as though there is anything other than the purchase of the certificate that we could not have found. ;D ;D
Indeed Rosie :'(
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Looking at that report it makes me realise how thorough we are on rootschat, it does not look as though there is anything other than the purchase of the certificate that we could not have found. ;D ;D
I'm afraid I have to agree with you. I hope you didn't pay over the odds for that.
Cost quite a bit Jen especially for a poor Geordie lad as I am.
Ive put so much time and effort into finding this man though I thought it was worth a shot.
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Cost quite a bit Jen
Don't let it happen again ;D
Just going back to that 1911 census, I repeat that I don't feel you should necessarily infer that William was still alive from the fact that Martha says the 'present' marriage has lasted 18 years.
I think some of the other contributors to this thread would agree that we have all seen examples where people have completely misinterpreted the meaning of questions on the census forms.
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Ive got a possible marriage for Martha Isabella Turner jnr as well but yet again no idea who she married
Martha I Turner Gateshead 10a 1813 4th qtr 1930 to a Louis E Bell
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Cost quite a bit Jen
Don't let it happen again ;D
Just going back to that 1911 census, I repeat that I don't feel you should necessarily infer that William was still alive from the fact that Martha says the 'present' marriage has lasted 18 years.
I think some of the other contributors to this thread would agree that we have all seen examples where people have completely misinterpreted the meaning of questions on the census forms.
Theres the story at the beginning though that my Father and Grandfather were both adamant that he died in WW1
My grandfather even said to my face that he had to go down the mines in order for them to stay in the house as it was mine company owned. However, if this was true it meant he was 12 which is rather unlikely in 1915
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Just found Martha Isabella (b) 1870 Williams wife death not that it helps ;D
Martha I Brown 1944 4th qtr 10a 293 Durham N.W
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When did she remarry?
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When did she remarry?
Just searching for that now Liz
she married James Brown (knowing as Jimmy to my Father) living together 1939 Register
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And .. (sorry for lots of questions!) - 1911 has the 13 yr old Martha Isabella junior. But the 1901 doesn't have her as a 3 yr old - instead it has an L Jane aged 3? Have you found out where Martha junior was? I assume the children from 1901 all died before 1911.
Not that any of this helps find William's death, but just trying to get a full view of the family.
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And .. (sorry for lots of questions!) - 1911 has the 13 yr old Martha Isabella junior. But the 1901 doesn't have her as a 3 yr old - instead it has an L Jane aged 3? Have you found out where Martha junior was? I assume the children from 1901 all died before 1911.
Not that any of this helps find William's death, but just trying to get a full view of the family.
Because she was as thick as a brick or drunk she got the daughters mixed up on the 1911 Census should be the other way around
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Elizabeth (Lizzie) Jane Turner 1898 1st qtr 10a 321 Lanchester mmn Cowie
Martha Isabella Turner 1904 4th qtr 10a 342 Lanchester mmn Cowie
William Turner 1903 23nd qtr 10a 364 Lanchester mmn Cowie
John George Turner 1907 3rd qtr 10a 377 Lanchester mmn Cowie
Emma (Emily) Turner 1906 1st qtr 10a 362 mmn Cowie
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I did wonder if that was the case!
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I did wonder if that was the case!
I don't think she was the full Shilling
just updated all children on 1911 census birth index above there
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One is the fact that he was 52 in 1915 and in a reserved occupation as a miner. I have seen other records of men in their 40's who were refused entry due to age at that time. So I doubt a 52 year old would have been snapped up at the very beginning of the war.
I think this is important. I doubt very much if he would be accepted at that age, at that stage of the war unless he had already been in the army. Also, if the 1911 says that his wife is a widow, and that is true, he can't possibly have fought in WW1.
I wonder if he had left the family and the story was told to the children to cover it up?
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I cant find her marriage to James Brown sorry Liz
Not sure if she went under Turner or Cowie ive tried both spanning from 1911 to 1939
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I couldn't see a remarriage either. That might be because one or other is still married to someone else.
I tend to agree that the WW1 story is just what the children were told. William has left her and they are told he died in WW1.
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One is the fact that he was 52 in 1915 and in a reserved occupation as a miner. I have seen other records of men in their 40's who were refused entry due to age at that time. So I doubt a 52 year old would have been snapped up at the very beginning of the war.
I think this is important. I doubt very much if he would be accepted at that age, at that stage of the war unless he had already been in the army. Also, if the 1911 says that his wife is a widow, and that is true, he can't possibly have fought in WW1.
I wonder if he had left the family and the story was told to the children to cover it up?
I think that may be the case Groom. I'm gonna search Durham Prison records when the Records office reopens after Christmas just in case he was there.
I asked my father years ago would he like to do his family history and he said " you dont wanna go there, far too many Black Sheep".
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I couldn't see a remarriage either. That might be because one or other is still married to someone else.
I tend to agree that the WW1 story is just what the children were told. William has left her and they are told he died in WW1.
My Grandfather was 8 in 1911 though and Martha Widowed then allegedly so where did he think he was for four years before the war :D
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Is there an Ancestry/FindMyPast search for Bigamists ;)
Actually now I remember his Father John Morland Turner did the same thing he had a mistress and disappeared from the 1901 Census
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Has the 1906 Lanchester death definitely been checked? I know the report says a certificate was checked but was not for him, but there are no further details given. Not impossible that the child born in 1907 wasn't his.
Isobel
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Has the 1906 Lanchester death definitely been checked? I know the report says a certificate was checked but was not for him, but there are no further details given. Not impossible that the child born in 1907 wasn't his.
Yes, what were the exact details on the death certificate?
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23rd Jan 1906 William Turner 42 year old Assurance Agent Tanfield Lanchester
I'll have to order John George Turner Birth cert I suppose to see father was
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There are some electoral registers, but they are arranged by streets not by people's names.
The ones in question were arranged by surnames. At least those few in the early 1900s that I had time to look at.
Last appearance of William Turner as per 1901 census was the 1902 electoral register
Electoral Polling District Hamsterley
Parish or Township Medomsley
William Turner at 117 Hamsterley Colliery
If anyone wants to attempt to pin him down afterwards they are on findmypast.
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I messaged RC military expert MaxD about this thread and asked for his opinion on it from a military viewpoint. This is what he says (He gave me permission to quote from his Personal Message)
Folk have covered all the bases I would look at. The genealogist didn't scour all the W Turners on the CWGC site so I had a look extending the search criteria to the whole war and age at death to 40-55 (allowing for some dissembling about his age). Zilch. The most likely explanation is the one the OP gives in his very first post, a story to cover up something else. Nothing else come to mind from the military angle I'm afraid.
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I messaged RC military expert MaxD about this thread and asked for his opinion on it from a military viewpoint. This is what he says (He gave me permission to quote from his Personal Message)
Folk have covered all the bases I would look at. The genealogist didn't scour all the W Turners on the CWGC site so I had a look extending the search criteria to the whole war and age at death to 40-55 (allowing for some dissembling about his age). Zilch. The most likely explanation is the one the OP gives in his very first post, a story to cover up something else. Nothing else come to mind from the military angle I'm afraid.
Excellent Thanks for that Jen
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There are some electoral registers, but they are arranged by streets not by people's names.
The ones in question were arranged by surnames. At least those few in the early 1900s that I had time to look at.
Last appearance of William Turner as per 1901 census was the 1902 electoral register
Electoral Polling District Hamsterley
Parish or Township Medomsley
William Turner at 117 Hamsterley Colliery
If anyone wants to attempt to pin him down afterwards they are on findmypast.
Thank you I shall have crack at it tomorrow.
My Grandad William Turner (1903) was born at Hill Top Colliery so may have moved there by 1903
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Has the 1906 Lanchester death definitely been checked? I know the report says a certificate was checked but was not for him, but there are no further details given. Not impossible that the child born in 1907 wasn't his.
Yes, what were the exact details on the death certificate?
Not sure if you saw this Jen as a lot of posts came up at the same time lol
23rd Jan 1906 William Turner 42 year old Assurance Agent, Tanfield, Lanchester, witness John Welsh
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There's a William Turner in Tanfield 1903 which is where Hill Top Colliery was
But that could be the one who died in 1906 above
Edited: I think our William Turner (d) 1906 Assurance agent lived in Oak Terrace Tanfield as That Name is there 1903 to 1906 and then no more
There are Three other addresses for A William Turner in Tanfield up until 1908 then they all disappear
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Hi,
Just an observation about his age . Many people lied about their ages, and if he looked a lot younger than he was I wouldn't totally rule out that he wasn't in the forces when he was in early 50's - my g grandfather was.
My G grandfather was transferred to the Royal flying corpse in 1917 when his true age was 51 yrs of age. He lied about his age on his forces papers back in 1914 . In 1914 he gives his birth as 1872 (making him look like 42 - when in fact he was 48 yrs old! He was born in 1866) He was discharged in 1918 (when he was 52)for being medically unfit.
Regarding the war, could your family have got the story mixed up over time and it wasn't WW1, but the second Boer war? (1899 to 1902)My other Great grandfather was in that one (and he was a coal miner, a Timberman in the pits to be more precise)
Kind Regards
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Royal flying corpse? :o Think that should be Corps?
I shall be having nightmares tonight thinking about that one!
Giggsy
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Royal flying corpse? :o Think that should be Corps?
I shall be having nightmares tonight thinking about that one!
Giggsy
LOL I didn't notice that mistake. That will teach me for not proofreading before I hit the post button lol
I won't edit it ;D
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Royal flying corpse
That's made me laugh. That could be Edward VII - hope it wasn't Victoria with all those skirts billowing about. ;D
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There's a William Turner in Tanfield 1903 which is where Hill Top Colliery was
According to Durham Mining Museum, Hill Top Colliery was in Langley Park: http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/h010.htm
Or Esh
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l5h/
Either way it's a good 10 miles from Tanfield.
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I'll have to order John George Turner Birth cert I suppose to see father was
Don't forget that if you do you can get a PDF for £6 from the GRO instead of paying £9.25
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
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Aye I shall order cert pdf today
I've found all census for William Turner and he was just a miner plodding along so don't think he was in the boar war plus he's supposed to have died in the war so wouldn't show up in 1901
I think in reality it's all a cover up to be honest.
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I think you are right about the cover up and quite possibly that birth certificate won't give any clues. Seems strange that your grandfather who was at home in 1911 when his father wasn't says his father died after that time.
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I think you are right about the cover up and quite possibly that birth certificate won't give any clues. Seems strange that your grandfather who was at home in 1911 when his father wasn't says his father died after that time.
My grandfather never had anything to show neither, no medals or photos etc thiugh his mother was still alive until 1944 so I guess she may have had them
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Wish my grandfather was still alive and I would interrogate him >:(
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My grandfather even said to my face that he had to go down the mines in order for them to stay in the house as it was mine company owned. However, if this was true it meant he was 12 which is rather unlikely in 1915
[/quote][/i
It doesn't look as if they were living in a mine company home in 1911. 31 River View, Blackhall Mill still exists and looks to be a substantial house. Martha is described as a Boarding House Keeper ( and a widow) Whatever changes there were to their family circumstances happened long before 1915.
Isobel
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Edited: I think our William Turner (d) 1906 Assurance agent lived in Oak Terrace Tanfield as That Name is there 1903 to 1906 and then no more
Oak Terrace was actually in Tantobie (Tanfield Parish). This William was buried Tanfield 27th January 1906, residence Tantobie.
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My grandfather even said to my face that he had to go down the mines in order for them to stay in the house as it was mine company owned. However, if this was true it meant he was 12 which is rather unlikely in 1915
[/i]
It doesn't look as if they were living in a mine company home in 1911. 31 River View, Blackhall Mill still exists and looks to be a substantial house. Martha is described as a Boarding House Keeper ( and a widow) Whatever changes there were to their family circumstances happened long before 1915.
Isobel
Yes totally agree Isobel it don't really fit with a typical miners house of the time
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Edited: I think our William Turner (d) 1906 Assurance agent lived in Oak Terrace Tanfield as That Name is there 1903 to 1906 and then no more
Oak Terrace was actually in Tantobie (Tanfield Parish). This William was buried Tanfield 27th January 1906, residence Tantobie.
Ahhh ok thanks for that Jen
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The mystery really though is even if he didn't die in WW1 were the hell is his death index it just doesn't exist
Unless Martha murdered him one night when he had one pint to many and buried him :-\
The old rolling pin over the head I'm thinking
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It is possible that if he left the family, rather than died before 1911, he changed his name and is buried under that name, as that is how anyone new would have known him. Also we aren't dealing with a particularly rare name, and he could have gone anywhere in the country and died at anytime between 1906 and 1950 ish.
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Side note
My father must have really believed the story of WW1 as he went to visit the Menin Gate in Ypres to look at the inscription of who he thought was his grandfather
It wasn't though as that was a totally different solider. My father died though before I could tell him.
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It is possible that if he left the family, rather than died before 1911, he changed his name and is buried under that name, as that is how anyone new would have known him. Also we aren't dealing with a particularly rare name, and he could have gone anywhere in the country and died at anytime between 1906 and 1950 ish.
Indeed Groom I think his story has died with him unfortunately
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Side note
My father must have really believed the story of WW1 as he went to visit the Menin Gate in Ypres to look at the inscription of who he thought was his grandfather
It wasn't though as that was a totally different solider. My father died though before I could tell him.
Perhaps it is just as well. I think a lot of our ancestors had secrets that they took to their graves, never dreaming that a hundred or so years later their descendants would be able to discover it, or at least query it.
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Just been talking to my mother and she's added that my grandfather said he was apprenticed to be a butcher but as his father died he had to go down the mines to keep the house
Perhaps they had moved to a smaller dwelling by 1915
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There's a William Turner in Tanfield 1903 which is where Hill Top Colliery was
According to Durham Mining Museum, Hill Top Colliery was in Langley Park: http://www.dmm.org.uk/colliery/h010.htm
Or Esh
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l5h/
Either way it's a good 10 miles from Tanfield.
There was a place in Tanfield Parish called Hill Top, but don't see a colliery there :-\
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/416119/554572/10/101063 (you might have to zoom out a bit to get the map)
Coincidentally :-\ only a couple of miles from Tantobie where the 'other' William Turner was when he died.
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I'll order John George and Emma Birth certs then at least I'll know where they were living 1906-1907
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I wonder if rather than Hill Top Colliery it was Hill Top, Collierley.
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I wonder if rather than Hill Top Colliery it was Hill Top, Collierley.
Ah yes, a strong likelihood I should think! Hill Top was certainly in the Parish of Collierley in 1901. Collierley was in Tanfield sub-district.
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There is a newspaper report in the Durham County Advertiser 10 November 1905 which seems to be him.
Reference is made to a brother, George M Turner, and looking at the 1871 census for William with his parents, John M & Mary J, there is also a son named George born c1867. GRO gives his full name as George Morland Turner - which ties with the father's middle name. ADDED - mmn given as Fracker.
The report is headed Serious Affray at Lintz Colliery. William is said to be an Engineman and describes himself as 'a cripple' and 'rather weak and soft'.
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I wonder if rather than Hill Top Colliery it was Hill Top, Collierley.
Ah yes, a strong likelihood I should think! Hill Top was certainly in the Parish of Collierley in 1901. Collierley was in Tanfield sub-district.
My Grandad went to Collierley school if that helps
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There is a newspaper report in the Durham County Advertiser 10 November 1905 which seems to be him.
Reference is made to a brother, George M Turner, and looking at the 1871 census for William with his parents, John M & Mary J, there is also a son named George born c1867. GRO gives his full name as George Morland Turner - which ties with the father's middle name. ADDED - mmn given as Fracker.
The report is headed Serious Affray at Lintz Colliery. William is said to be an Engineman and describes himself as 'a cripple' and 'rather weak and soft'.
Oooh wow ok cool find
Yes his brother was George Morland Turner
Could you post the link for that article please
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Could you post the link for that article please
It is easy to find just select 1905 and put Lintz Colliery into the search
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Could you post the link for that article please
It is easy to find just select 1905 and put Lintz Colliery into the search
I found it by name but it came up with the wrong page, so if that happens just go to page 3 and its towards the bottom of column 2.
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I wonder if rather than Hill Top Colliery it was Hill Top, Collierley.
Ah yes, a strong likelihood I should think! Hill Top was certainly in the Parish of Collierley in 1901. Collierley was in Tanfield sub-district.
My Grandad went to Collierley school if that helps
You said he was born at Hill Top Colliery. Can you check the birth certificate. Was it Hill Top Colliery or Hill Top Collierley?
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I wonder if rather than Hill Top Colliery it was Hill Top, Collierley.
Ah yes, a strong likelihood I should think! Hill Top was certainly in the Parish of Collierley in 1901. Collierley was in Tanfield sub-district.
My Grandad went to Collierley school if that helps
You said he was born at Hill Top Colliery. Can you check the birth certificate. Was it Hill Top Colliery or Hill Top Collierley?
Hill Top Collierley just checked sorry
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Could you post the link for that article please
It is easy to find just select 1905 and put Lintz Colliery into the search
I found it by name but it came up with the wrong page, so if that happens just go to page 3 and its towards the bottom of column 2.
Where am I looking what website ?
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British newspaper archive or FindMyPast
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Here's address entry on Birth cert
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British newspaper archive or FindMyPast
My FindMyPast account won't let me access this article 😯
Was there much info in the article is it worth upgrading just for this one ?
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Here's address entry on Birth cert
That clearly says Hill Top, Collierley, not Colliery. Jomot was correct. Collierley was the name of the parish where he was born.
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Was there much info in the article is it worth upgrading just for this one ?
If you just register with British Newspaper Archive
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/account/register
You get 3 page views for free!
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Was there much info in the article is it worth upgrading just for this one ?
If you just register with British Newspaper Archive
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/account/register
You get 3 page views for free!
Thanks
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Here's address entry on Birth cert
That clearly says Hill Top, Collierley, not Colliery. Jomot was correct. Collierley was the name of the parish where he was born.
I'm getting a bit lost Jen whats the relevance of William Turner (b) 1903 birth place
I did actually type Collierley but it auto corrected to Colliery without me noticing
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Here's address entry on Birth cert
That clearly says Hill Top, Collierley, not Colliery. Jomot was correct. Collierley was the name of the parish where he was born.
I'm getting a bit lost Jen whats the relevance of William Turner (b) 1903 birth place
We were trying to establish his father’s whereabouts. You said earlier that William junior was born in 1903 at Hill Top Colliery, and the only one we could find was at Langley Park.
However it’s now clear from the scan you’ve provided that he was in fact born at Hill Top in the parish of Collierley which was much closer to where he was in 1901.
Every little helps.
I see the newspaper report states that William was ‘a most aggravating man’. I’ll second that ;D
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Here's address entry on Birth cert
That clearly says Hill Top, Collierley, not Colliery. Jomot was correct. Collierley was the name of the parish where he was born.
I'm getting a bit lost Jen whats the relevance of William Turner (b) 1903 birth place
We were trying to establish his father’s whereabouts. You said earlier that William junior was born in 1903 at Hill Top Colliery, and the only one we could find was at Langley Park.
However it’s now clear from the scan you’ve provided that he was in fact born at Hill Top in the parish of Collierley which was much closer to where he was in 1901.
Every little helps.
I see the newspaper report states that William was ‘a most aggravating man’. I’ll second that ;D
Just like his great grandson eh Jen :-\
I can't find the article have registered free account and can't find it
I'm really crap at this geneology marlarky
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I'm looking at British Newspaper Archive I've opened up search now what ?
Found it ignore above
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I'm really crap at this geneology marlarky
Less of this defeatist talk please ;D
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I would go to advanced search and in the use exact phrase box put
"affray at lintz colliery"
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I'm totally ashamed what a wimp my Great Grandfather was :-[
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I'm guessing the Margaret Turner mentioned is George Turners wife ?
Actually the article makes it sound like Margaret Turner is Williams wife so therefore not my William
But then his brother was George Morland Turner
So who the hell is Margaret Turner
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Margaret & Martha could be easily muddled up. I think in itself it isn't enough to dismiss it as being your William.
Just to add to the annoyance, I can't find George Morland Turner after this either. Earlier census have him as born c1867 Penshaw/Pensher, married to Agnes.
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Margaret & Martha could be easily muddled up. I think in itself it isn't enough to dismiss it as being your William.
Just to add to the annoyance, I can't find George Morland Turner after this either. Earlier census have him as born c1867 Penshaw/Pensher, married to Agnes.
I've only got George up to the 1881 census on my tree
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Just to add to the annoyance, I can't find George Morland Turner after this either. Earlier census have him as born c1867 Penshaw/Pensher, married to Agnes.
George and Agnes are in Sunderland in 1901. RG 13/3705/165/10
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Just to add to the annoyance, I can't find George Morland Turner after this either. Earlier census have him as born c1867 Penshaw/Pensher, married to Agnes.
George and Agnes are in Sunderland in 1901. RG 13/3705/165/10
Maybe William is with them on the 1911 census
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That's what I was looking for, but I cant find them after the newspaper article.
Agnes' maiden name looks like it was Peveril or similar
TURNER, MARY JANE mmn PEVEREL 1889 D Quarter in LANCHESTER
TURNER, WILLIAM mmn PEVRILL 1890 D Quarter in LANCHESTER
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William Peveral Turner was killed in action 1916
There could be a death for Agnes 1905 Gateshead :-\
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William Peveral Turner was killed in action 1916
So HE is the one killed in WW1 !
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Well I did wonder if that is where the story came from :)
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Crikey, I see he married Mary Ann Smith in Sunderland, 1910, and there is a newspaper article in July 1911 about a William Turner aged 21 of Sunderland charged with attempted murder of his 5 1/2 month old child.
Checking the prison records the child was Elizabeth Ellen Turner:
TURNER, ELIZABETH ELLEN mmn SMITH - 1911 M Quarter in SUNDERLAND Volume 10A Page 675
Pleaded guilty, got 2 months hard labour :o
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William Peveral Turner was killed in action 1916
There could be a death for Agnes 1905 Gateshead :-\
Who's William Peveral Turner ?
What's the connection ?
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TURNER, WILLIAM mmn PEVRILL 1890 D Quarter in LANCHESTER
This chap I would say
Son of George Morland Turner and Agnes nee Peverill
Married to Mary
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/193470/turner,-william-peverall/
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William Peveral Turner is George Morland Turner's son.
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Ahhh ok thanks I have very little on him at the moment was just concentrating on my GGF
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Why would my grandad think his cousin was his father getting killed in WW1 ?
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Ahhh ok thanks I have very little on him at the moment was just concentrating on my GGF
I think the important point people are trying to make is that this is the William Turner who was killed in WW1, but it wasn't the William you were expecting :-\
Added Sorry, I missed your previous posting ::)
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Can I throw in a fly into the ointment?
Could your grandfather have been a son of William Peveral and Mary?
You said when he married in 1928 he said his Dad was William. What else do you know for sure that links him to the parents William and Martha?
I haven't been through all the posts here to see if the dates tie up etc, but this thought did just occur to me!
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Maybe not, as the only Turner/Smith births in Sunderland between the1910 marriage and his 1916 death are Ellen Elizabeth (who was found before), Patrick James, and Agnes.
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Can I throw in a fly into the ointment?
Could your grandfather have been a son of William Peveral and Mary?
You said when he married in 1928 he said his Dad was William. What else do you know for sure that links him to the parents William and Martha?
I haven't been through all the posts here to see if the dates tie up etc, but this thought did just occur to me!
My father knew Martha as his grandmother and also knew her second husband James Brown and I have a photograph of my Grandfather and his wife sitting with Martha and James and it states on the back who they are
Also wasn't William Peveral Turner George Turner son so he wouldn't have been old enough to father William Turner jnr as he was what 22 when he married in 1912
Also his birth certificate which states mother as Martha Isabella Turner and father William Turner
GRO birth index states mmn Cowie
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Can I throw in a fly into the ointment?
Could your grandfather have been a son of William Peveral and Mary?
You said when he married in 1928 he said his Dad was William. What else do you know for sure that links him to the parents William and Martha?
I haven't been through all the posts here to see if the dates tie up etc, but this thought did just occur to me!
Suppose it could be though that William Turner would have been 14 at the time of my GF birth
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I think it unlikely really.
I know I am repeating what has been said but trying to reason this.
William is not with his wife and family in 1911.
His son William is 8 yrs old in 1911 and believed his father to have been killed in 1915.
We think it unlikely that dad would have been a soldier due to age.
Did young William have any memory of his father being at home?
When did his mother die? Did he remember other family events?
We do know that a relative, also called William, was killed in 1916. Maybe confusion of names :-\
I have tried to look for any W T in hospitals or asylums but not yet found anyone.
At the moment, I can only think that the youngest child’s birth certificate might help as suggested but even then William might have been named as father. :-\
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William is not with his wife and family in 1911.
His son William is 8 yrs old in 1911 and believed his father to have been killed in 1915.
We think it unlikely that dad would have been a soldier due to age.
This is the strange part isn't it? If William wasn't with the family in 1911, what was the son told to explain his disappearance between 1911 and the start of the war?
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Possible last sighting?
1908 electoral register
Polling District Hamsterley
Medomsley
William Turner
place of abode 5 Hamsterley Colliery
Dwelling house (successive)
qualifying property 23, School Row, Lintz Colliery
and 5, Hamsterley Colliery.
Not there 1909 (nor I think in 1907)
Is the John Thomas Turner who also lived in Medomsley another brother of William?
For some reason there's a shortage in that area of the female local elections only voters (division 3) in the online registers. However, there is this one, which has a Martha Turner
1913
Polling District Hamsterley
Parish or District Chopwell
Division III
Martha Turner
place of abode Park House Cottages
Dwelling house (successive)
qualifying property Blackhall Mill and Chopwell
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I know the age is out but there is a death for William Turner 54 yrs in Gateshead in 1909.
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Possible last sighting?
1908 electoral register
Polling District Hamsterley
Medomsley
William Turner
place of abode 5 Hamsterley Colliery
Dwelling house (successive)
qualifying property 23, School Row, Lintz Colliery
and 5, Hamsterley Colliery.
Not there 1909 (nor I think in 1907)
Is the John Thomas Turner who also lived in Medomsley another brother of William?
For some reason there's a shortage in that area of the female local elections only voters (division 3) in the online registers. However, there is this one, which has a Martha Turner
1913
Polling District Hamsterley
Parish or District Chopwell
Division III
Martha Turner
place of abode Park House Cottages
Dwelling house (successive)
qualifying property Blackhall Mill and Chopwell
John Thomas Turner is also a brother of William Turner yes
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I think it unlikely really.
I know I am repeating what has been said but trying to reason this.
William is not with his wife and family in 1911.
His son William is 8 yrs old in 1911 and believed his father to have been killed in 1915.
We think it unlikely that dad would have been a soldier due to age.
Did young William have any memory of his father being at home?
When did his mother die? Did he remember other family events?
We do know that a relative, also called William, was killed in 1916. Maybe confusion of names :-\
I have tried to look for any W T in hospitals or asylums but not yet found anyone.
At the moment, I can only think that the youngest child’s birth certificate might help as suggested but even then William might have been named as father. :-\
William Turner (b) 1903 his mother died in 1944
I have no idea about if he knew the whereabouts of his father I had no reason to ask him really
All I remember him talking to me about was his father dying in WW1 and his own occupation down the mines
My Grandfather died in about
1986 so memories of us talking are fading now I'm afraid
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William Turner (b) 1864 siblings as follows
George Morland Turner 1866
John Thomas Turner 1868
Mary Jane Turner 1870
Henry Turner 1874
Elizabeth Turner 1878
Alfred Palmer Turner 1880
Samuel Turner 1885
Annie Turner 1892
William Turner 1894
William Turner children as follows
Elizabeth Jane Turner 1898
Frederick Turner 1901-1904
William Turner my GF 1903
Martha Isabella Turner 1904
Emma Turner 1906
John George Turner 1907
I believe the last William Turner (b) 1894 Blyth Northumberland and Annie sibling may have been to a different marriage or out of wedlock or adopted as disscussed on a previous thread John Morland Turner was playing away from home and remarried at a later date
Their mmn was Smith
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Is William Peveral Turner the son of George Morland Turner did anyone find out ?
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Is William Peveral Turner the son of George Morland Turner did anyone find out ?
See reply #114 :D
William Peveral Turner is George Morland Turner's son.
also in reply to your question here
Who's William Peveral Turner ?
TURNER, WILLIAM mmn PEVRILL 1890 D Quarter in LANCHESTER
This chap I would say
Son of George Morland Turner and Agnes nee Peverill
Married to Mary
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/193470/turner,-william-peverall/
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Yes, Jomot gave you that earlier
William Peveral Turner is George Morland Turner's son.
According to a tree on Ancestry as well, born 26 Sep 1890 • 41 Hamsterley Colliery Medomsley Co Durham
Sorry Jen, we crossed posts.
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Sorry I was getting a bit lost with it going onto 15 pages :D
Just recieved another newspaper article and by the looks of it the Turner family were complete head cases.
I'll not be surprised if Martha did do away with William or if he's in Prison
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Just recieved another newspaper article and by the looks of it the Turner family were complete head cases
Tell us more :D
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Just recieved another newspaper article and by the looks of it the Turner family were complete head cases
Tell us more :D
Jomot sent me it PM so I'll have to check they don't mind me posting it lol its pretty bad though I'm now really ashamed to be linked to this crazy family :D
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Jomot sent me it PM so I'll have to check they don't mind me posting it lol its pretty bad though I'm now really ashamed to be linked to this crazy family :D
Why, we can't change what our ancestors did?
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I know I was saying it with Tounge in cheek.
I can see why I'm like I am now ::)
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I'm sure Jomot won't mind me posting here's the article
This doesn't help with your search but is definitely William & Martha so I thought you'd be interested. I didn't post it on the main board as it doesn't add anything to the search:
Durham County Advertiser 05 October 1900
FAMILY FEUD AT HAMSTERLEY COLLIERY
W Turner and his wife Martha Turner were summonsed for assaulting Elizabeth Cowie, an elderly woman, at Hamsterley Colliery on 15th ult. The male defendant denied the charge, while Mrs Turner pleaded guilty. Complainant stated that there had been a disturbance in her house, the youngest son ill using his father. Mrs Turner, who was her married daughter, struck her upon the forehead with a key, whilst the male defendant “shoved” his fist into her face and threatened her. One of the sons had to eject Turner from the house, and PC Linden was sent for. Mrs Turner said she struck her mother because the latter first hit her. The magistrates came to the conclusion that there were faults on both sides, still Mrs Turner had no right to strike her mother. She would be fined 2s 6d and costs. The male defendant was discharged.
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Sounds as if they were quite a volatile family doesn't it? Perhaps all the more reason to suspect that the couple did split up. Still doesn't explain where he was in 1911, unless he did end up in prison and the "died in WW1" story was started to make them seem more respectable.
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Sounds as if they were quite a volatile family doesn't it? Perhaps all the more reason to suspect that the couple did split up. Still doesn't explain where he was in 1911, unless he did end up in prison and the "died in WW1" story was started to make them seem more respectable.
That's what I'm thinking and like I said way back my father said lots of black sheep in the Turner family
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Possible last sighting?
1908 electoral register
Polling District Hamsterley
Medomsley
William Turner
place of abode 5 Hamsterley Colliery
Dwelling house (successive)
qualifying property 23, School Row, Lintz Colliery
and 5, Hamsterley Colliery.
What is meant by qualifying property as it's a different address ?
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Hi
I think basically what it means is that his previous qualifying address was 23 School Row, Lintz Colliery. He must have recently moved from there to 5 Hamsterley.
It does seem that he disappears shortly after this.
I'd agree that it is very debatable whether Martha was a widow in 1911.
Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
But I'm not recommending it!
John
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Hi
I think basically what it means is that his previous qualifying address was 23 School Row, Lintz Colliery. He must have recently moved from there to 5 Hamsterley.
It does seem that he disappears shortly after this.
I'd agree that it is very debatable whether Martha was a widow in 1911.
Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
But I'm not recommending it!
John
School Row is were Martha is in 1911 as well very strange
So looking like 1908 and then he's a gonna somewhere
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This may be a huge leap but there is a William Turner who dies in Durham asylum in Nov 1915, if they were embarassed by this during WW1 it wouldn't be hard to explain away the death by he died in the war. However he was admitted in Mar 1901 so shouldn't be on the 1901 census at home which is why it's a big leap (although if his wife was treating it as a temporary thing or not admitting to it she may have included him on the census)
also one in durham admitted 1910 died 1919
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That's a good possibility, Iolaus. I wonder if Davy can find that one on the 1911 census to see if it give anymore information?
What registration district would the asylum come under, I cant find a death to check the age?
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He was in the newspapers 1906 though and fathered children 1898 to 1907 so may be the one admitted later.
And to be honest after reading what he got up too I wouldn't be surprised :D
I'll have a look tomorrow as I'm at work till midnight
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That's a good possibility, Iolaus. I wonder if Davy can find that one on the 1911 census to see if it give anymore information?
What registration district would the asylum come under, I cant find a death to check the age?
This is the only Asylum I can find in Durham
Winterton Asylum,
Winterton, Durham, England
Salters Lane near Sedgefield, Durham England
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Hi
I think basically what it means is that his previous qualifying address was 23 School Row, Lintz Colliery. He must have recently moved from there to 5 Hamsterley.
It does seem that he disappears shortly after this.
I'd agree that it is very debatable whether Martha was a widow in 1911.
Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
But I'm not recommending it!
John
School Row is were Martha is in 1911 as well very strange
So looking like 1908 and then he's a gonna somewhere
Martha was at 31 River View in 1911.
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Yes, Sedgefield/Winterton would be the asylum for the area, but the ages at death don't tie in with your William. William died 1919 was 38 & William died 1915 was 40. There was also one died 1903 but he was 59.
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Hi
I think basically what it means is that his previous qualifying address was 23 School Row, Lintz Colliery. He must have recently moved from there to 5 Hamsterley.
It does seem that he disappears shortly after this.
I'd agree that it is very debatable whether Martha was a widow in 1911.
Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
But I'm not recommending it!
John
School Row is were Martha is in 1911 as well very strange
So looking like 1908 and then he's a gonna somewhere
Martha was at 31 River View in 1911.
Indeed it was thank you
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Yes, Sedgefield/Winterton would be the asylum for the area, but the ages at death don't tie in with your William. William died 1919 was 38 & William died 1915 was 40. There was also one died 1903 but he was 59.
Ahhh ok back to the drawing board
Thanks for looking 🖒
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Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
But I'm not recommending it!
Still not. But Peter Rodger a couple of pages on, 10b 24, died at the Royal Victoria Infirmary (probate record)
So maybe not impossible.
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Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
But I'm not recommending it!
Still not. But Peter Rodger a couple of pages on, 10b 24, died at the Royal Victoria Infirmary (probate record)
So maybe not impossible.
Was Peter Rodger living in Durham like Jon ?
RVI was and still is the major hospital for the North East
William Turner age 46 fits perfectly
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Hi
No, Mr Rodger was living in Newcastle!
It's something to bear in mind, perhaps as a very last resort.
John
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There's a death index for William Turner 1923 age 59 in Durham 10A 363 but gives nothing else.
Is there anywhere I could look into that deeper other than ordering death cert ?
ADDED
Actually there's a couple that could be him, all the right age but even ordering the death certs may still not give a clue if it was him.
So what does one do ?
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Hi
No, Mr Rodger was living in Newcastle!
It's something to bear in mind, perhaps as a very last resort.
John
What's the connection with Mr Rodger John I'm a bit lost with that one ?
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Hi
No, Mr Rodger was living in Newcastle!
It's something to bear in mind, perhaps as a very last resort.
John
What's the connection with Mr Rodger John I'm a bit lost with that one ?
There's no direct connection :D
John was pointing out that Mr Rodger died at the RVI, so it wasn't beyond the bounds of possibility that William died there as well, and if so his death would be recorded in Newcastle Registration District.
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There's a death index for William Turner 1923 age 59 in Durham 10A 363 but gives nothing else.
Is there anywhere I could look into that deeper other than ordering death cert ?
There is a Billion Graves entry for what looks like it could be that one - William Turner dearly beloved son of Richard & Isabella Peele, died 19 Nov 1923 & buried at Stockton Road Cemetery, Durham.
Scrap that -it looks like the age is 5 years & 8 months
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I'm still wondering about the significance of Martha & James not marrying. Did they know that William was still alive perhaps.
Martha's death notice also makes reference to the Turner surname:
Newcastle Evening Chronicle 21 November 1944
BROWN. Greenside, 2 Landsale Houses. 20th. 74. Martha Isabella (Turner) wife James (late Hamsterley Coll). Inter. Ryton. Thurs. Friends meet cem. 2.45
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[/b]
Newcastle Evening Chronicle 21 November 1944
BROWN. Greenside, 2 Landsale Houses. 20th. 74. Martha Isabella (Turner) wife James (late Hamsterley Coll). Inter. Ryton. Thurs. Friends meet cem. 2.45
Is this saying she was buried in Ryton ? As if so i'll have a pop over there on Wednesday and see if William is hanging around there also.
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There is another death index for 1941 Durham 10a 1186 age 77 so yet again right age
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Trying to find William Peverall Turner with Mary Ann in 1911 census and failing miserably.
Can anyone see it ?
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[/b]
Newcastle Evening Chronicle 21 November 1944
BROWN. Greenside, 2 Landsale Houses. 20th. 74. Martha Isabella (Turner) wife James (late Hamsterley Coll). Inter. Ryton. Thurs. Friends meet cem. 2.45
Is this saying she was buried in Ryton ? As if so i'll have a pop over there on Wednesday and see if William is hanging around there also.
Yes, she is at Ryton Cemetery. The record is on Durham Records Online. Bear in mind the a significant number of people have no grave marker. It depended on what the family could afford.
DRO has the Records for Ryton Cemetery from 1884 to 1998, and I can’t see any burial for William.
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[/b]
Newcastle Evening Chronicle 21 November 1944
BROWN. Greenside, 2 Landsale Houses. 20th. 74. Martha Isabella (Turner) wife James (late Hamsterley Coll). Inter. Ryton. Thurs. Friends meet cem. 2.45
Is this saying she was buried in Ryton ? As if so i'll have a pop over there on Wednesday and see if William is hanging around there also.
Yes, she is at Ryton Cemetery. The record is on Durham Records Online. Bear in mind the a significant number of people have no grave marker. It depended on what the family could afford.
DRO has the Records for Ryton Cemetery from 1884 to 1998, and I can’t see any burial for William.
Thanks Jen
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By the way, Durham Records Online is a useful source of information via its free index. For instance it is easy to find Martha's burial because the free index includes her address.
https://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/NewSearch.php well worth bookmarking ;)
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By the way, Durham Records Online is a useful source of information via its free index. For instance it is easy to find Martha's burial because the free index includes her address.
https://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/NewSearch.php well worth bookmarking ;)
I can only see ones I have to pay £1.50
Am I doing something wrong ?
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By the way, Durham Records Online is a useful source of information via its free index. For instance it is easy to find Martha's burial because the free index includes her address.
https://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/NewSearch.php well worth bookmarking ;)
I can only see ones I have to pay £1.50
Am I doing something wrong ?
It's a pay-per-view site.
But if you search for a burial of a Martha Isabella Brown in 1944 it appears on the results page (which you don't have to pay for) complete with the same address as in the newspaper article.
The newspaper article stated burial at Ryton*. It has to be at the cemetery as opposed to the churchyard because DRO only has Ryton churchyard burials up to 1867.
Also, I've just noticed, it also says 'meet at cem[etery] :D
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You are in luck, because you can see Martha's burial at Ryton on FamilySearch
entry 4291
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-H9DL-5?i=245&cat=825165
And the graves register, section L grave 49, shows that James Brown is buried with her
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-H983-D?i=777&cat=825165
DRO has the burial (somewhere!) of
George William Turner, 1895, age 0, 39 Hamsterley Colliery
but seemingly not those of his siblings
Albert Turner, presumably died Lanchester 1899, age 0
Frederick Turner, 1904, age 3
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You are in luck, because you can see Martha's burial at Ryton on FamilySearch
entry 4291
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-H9DL-5?i=245&cat=825165
And the graves register, section L grave 49, shows that James Brown is buried with her
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-H983-D?i=777&cat=825165
Better and better!
Trying to find William Peverall Turner with Mary Ann in 1911 census and failing miserably.
Can anyone see it ?
We are only allowed to do 1911 look-ups via the free index. I can’t see anything promising.
There are some trees for him on Ancestry and they don’t seem to have found him in 1911. The newspaper article about his 1911 court case mentioned that he lived with his in-laws in Hutton Street but I can’t find anything from searching on that either.
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You are in luck, because you can see Martha's burial at Ryton on FamilySearch
entry 4291
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-H9DL-5?i=245&cat=825165
And the graves register, section L grave 49, shows that James Brown is buried with her
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ7-H983-D?i=777&cat=825165
DRO has the burial (somewhere!) of
George William Turner, 1895, age 0, 39 Hamsterley Colliery
but seemingly not those of his siblings
Albert Turner, presumably died Lanchester 1899, age 0
Frederick Turner, 1904, age 3
Thanks John
I didn't know about George or Albert so that's a bonus thanks
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By the way, Durham Records Online is a useful source of information via its free index. For instance it is easy to find Martha's burial because the free index includes her address.
https://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/NewSearch.php well worth bookmarking ;)
I can only see ones I have to pay £1.50
Am I doing something wrong ?
It's a pay-per-view site.
But if you search for a burial of a Martha Isabella Brown in 1944 it appears on the results page (which you don't have to pay for) complete with the same address as in the newspaper article.
The newspaper article stated burial at Ryton*. It has to be at the cemetery as opposed to the churchyard because DRO only has Ryton churchyard burials up to 1867.
Also, I've just noticed, it also says 'meet at cem[etery] :D
;D Thank you Jen
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William Peverall Turner was a L/Cpl in the Northumberland Fusiliers I'm surprised he got in the army with a previous conviction of attempted manslaughter
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you ask if someone could have gone to work at 12 in 1915. The school leaving age at that time was 12, it was raised to 14 in 1918.
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I see you had an earlier thread on this topic.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=664688.msg5099849#msg5099849
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I see you had an earlier thread on this topic.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=664688.msg5099849#msg5099849
Yeah 2013 and couldn't find him then. As I said at start of this thread this is my last go at finding him before I give up
And I've had a lot of new information this time around so was worth asking again.
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That's not the point DavyTee
Ther thing is, if you start another thread on the same topic as an existing one (however old it is) then there is the risk that people spend their time (which is freely given) looking up things that someone has already looked up, and going over ground you have already gone over.
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That's not the point DavyTee
Ther thing is, if you start another thread on the same topic as an existing one (however old it is) then there is he risk that people spend their time (which is freely given) looking up things that someone has already looked up, and going over ground you have already gone over.
It's all new information I have gathered though
Ok thanks everyone for all your input
I didn't realise it was against the rules to start a new thread four years later I do apologise
I am in touch with William Peverall Turner Grandson and he has solved all my issues.
This thread is now ended
Thanks you've all been great
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I am in touch with William Peverall Turner Grandson and he has solved all my issues.
Does this mean you now know what happened to 'your' William?
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I didn't realise it was against the rules to start a new thread four years later I do apologise
Not against the rules at all, but it’s useful to know so we don’t cover the same ground again :)
I am in touch with William Peverall Turner Grandson and he has solved all my issues.
This thread is now ended
Are we allowed to know what you’ve now discovered? We’ve put a good deal of time into helping you and it would be nice if you would share it with us :)
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Please don't leave us up in the air - as Jen said, we've put a lot of time into this and it would be nice to know what happened. If you don't want to put it on a public thread you can send all those who helped here a joint PM.
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Please don't leave us up in the air - as Jen said, we've put a lot of time into this and it would be nice to know what happened. If you don't want to put it on a public thread you can send all those who helped here a joint PM.
I am meeting with him next week so shall give you all an update then.
There's just a few things I need to clear up with him before publishing :D
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As someone who has been watching this thread, and enjoying the adventure of getting to have some knowledge of your family please don't forget to tell us how it goes.
I can understand if some on here get annoyed that there was a previous thread, albeit 4 years ago, and some research is duplicated. It was interesting to read the other thread and see what a difference four years makes to what help is found.
Please let us all know how it goes with William Peverall Turner's grandson. It gives us hope that our brick walls will one day fall.
Also how did you find him?
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As someone who has been watching this thread, and enjoying the adventure of getting to have some knowledge of your family please don't forget to tell us how it goes.
I can understand if some on here get annoyed that there was a previous thread, albeit 4 years ago, and some research is duplicated. It was interesting to read the other thread and see what a difference four years makes to what help is found.
Please let us all know how it goes with William Peverall Turner's grandson. It gives us hope that our brick walls will one day fall.
Also how did you find him?
Yes it would have been nice to have had a private message enquiring about the previous thread rather than posting on here and making me look like a plonker.
But as you say a lot of new information did surface this time around and I had forgot about that previous thread. Having had a brain tumour removed my memory is not what it was.
When William Peverall Turner was found it allowed me to trace a living relative through Ancestry. William Peverall Turner Grandson. I got in touch and he has quite a lot of info on his Great Uncle.
I just need to make sure we are singing from the same Hymn Sheet before definatly saying what happened.
I will in due course let folks know what happened.
I have just recieved John George and Emma Turner birth certs as well so gonna see what info that gives
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When William Peverall Turner was found it allowed me to trace a living relative through Ancestry. William Peverall Turner Grandson. I got in touch and he has quite a lot of info on his Great Uncle.
Rather than having to read back 21 pages - is his great uncle the mysterious William who is supposed to have died in WW1?
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Yes it would have been nice to have had a private message enquiring about the previous thread rather than posting on here and making me look like a plonker.
I apologise that you feel I have made you look like a 'plonker'.
It wasn't my intention. I am not that sort of person.
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When William Peverall Turner was found it allowed me to trace a living relative through Ancestry. William Peverall Turner Grandson. I got in touch and he has quite a lot of info on his Great Uncle.
Rather than having to read back 21 pages - is his great uncle the mysterious William who is supposed to have died in WW1?
Yes that William Turner 🖒
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Yes, do let us know. I too have been following this thread with interest. :)
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John George Turner last born child of William and Martha
Address given for birth is 5 Dene Row, Hamsterly Colliery, Medomsley, Durham. 25th July 1907 father William Turner miner and Martha Isabella Turner.
I talked to Wiiliam P Turner's Grandson again tonight and he just gave same info I already know about the wrong solider my father thought was my William Turner. So still no further forward.
I have gone through all the burial records for the cemeteries around that area and nothing at all.
Perhaps he was buried in a paupers grave and not registered.
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Perhaps he was buried in a paupers grave and not registered.
Even if it was a pauper's grave he must have been registered as you need that before a burial or cremation, especially as we are talking about the 1900s.
I still think he left the family and perhaps changed his name, so is buried using that name and that is why he can't be found. If he is supposed to have died in 1915 why can't he be found in 1911 and why does she say she is a widow? It just doesn't add up.
Unfortunately re John's birth certificate naming him as father that doesn't mean 100% that he was. If a woman was married, her husband was assumed to be the father, whether he was or not. There have been lots of cases, especially during war time, when men were away fighting at the time the baby was conceived, yet were down as father on the certificate. Could that be why the marriage broke up - she had a baby by another man? I suppose that is where a DNA test would come in handy.
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Guess it's time to give up on William Turner. All avenues have been exhausted.
I could try and track down Elizabeth, Emma and Martha jnr descendants and see if they can shed light I suppose.
Thanks to everyone that had input and followed this story with interest.
You've all been wonderful. :)
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That is probably the only way to go now, although the chances are they were told the same story. Looking at all the extra information we’ve found since you last posted, who knows what may become available in years to come.
Good luck.
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I still think he left the family and perhaps changed his name, so is buried using that name and that is why he can't be found.
Unfortunately re John's birth certificate naming him as father that doesn't mean 100% that he was.
So you don't think that was the correct William Turner in Medomsley on the 1908 electoral register?
1908 electoral register
Polling District Hamsterley
Medomsley
William Turner
place of abode 5 Hamsterley Colliery
John George Turner last born child of William and Martha
Address given for birth is 5 Dene Row, Hamsterly Colliery, Medomsley, Durham. 25th July 1907
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I still think he left the family and perhaps changed his name, so is buried using that name and that is why he can't be found.
Unfortunately re John's birth certificate naming him as father that doesn't mean 100% that he was.
So you don't think that was the correct William Turner in Medomsley on the 1908 electoral register?
1908 electoral register
Polling District Hamsterley
Medomsley
William Turner
place of abode 5 Hamsterley Colliery
John George Turner last born child of William and Martha
Address given for birth is 5 Dene Row, Hamsterly Colliery, Medomsley, Durham. 25th July 1907
Certainly looks like same man to me.
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Even though he appears on 1908 register he may have died in between data being gathered and the time the register was published. My great grandfather died in late 1914, yet appears on 1915 register
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Sorry John, I’d missed that. It still doesn’t answer where and when he died or why she claimed she was a widow in 1911, yet the children were told he died in the war in 1915. It’s a very odd situation altogether as the children in 1911 were old enough to know their father wasn’t around.
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I think we can say then that there is a period of about three years, before we see Martha in the next census, during which time William has certainly disappeared!
John
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Sorry Jon, I’d missed that. It still doesn’t answer where and when he died or why she claimed she was a widow in 1911, yet the children were told he died in the war in 1915. It’s a very odd situation altogether as the children in 1911 were old enough to know their father wasn’t around.
It looks like he and Martha were together until at least the time when data was gathered for 1908 ER (late 1907) and the date of 1911 census. Perhaps he did die in 1915, but not in the war (as he would be rather old to serve) and somehow Martha heard of his death and just assumed it was connected to WW1 because of the date, and that got handed on to the children.
But how did Martha explain several years of an absent father to her children before the beginning of WW1?
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But how did Martha explain several years of an absent father to her children before the beginning of WW1?
That is the strange thing isn't it? Or perhaps, and we'll probably never know, they did know he'd left her, but that bit was never passed down to grandchildren and great grandchildren, just his death. Still doesn't tell us when and where he died!
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I still think he left the family and perhaps changed his name, so is buried using that name and that is why he can't be found.
Unfortunately re John's birth certificate naming him as father that doesn't mean 100% that he was.
So you don't think that was the correct William Turner in Medomsley on the 1908 electoral register?
1908 electoral register
Polling District Hamsterley
Medomsley
William Turner
place of abode 5 Hamsterley Colliery
John George Turner last born child of William and Martha
Address given for birth is 5 Dene Row, Hamsterly Colliery, Medomsley, Durham. 25th July 1907
Yeah John I would say that's the same William definatly.
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I've spent the last two days going through the Burial records for the cemeteries in that area and Sunderland in case he ended up there with family and no trace from 1907 till 1954.
It would be handy to see when Martha Married James Smith as this could give us a clue as to when William may have died. She is called wife of James Brown on the burial record so i take it they got married.
I still personally think William was around in 1911 due to the word widow being added later and the fact she states married 18 years which was how long the marriage was up to 1911.
I've still to check prison records but Durham Records office is closed for Christmas so that'll have to wait.
Just got a feeling he may have been there as he was a bit of a bugger.
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I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I don't think that Martha & James actually married. I cant find any record to match and I still think it odd that her death notice has Turner in brackets.
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I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I don't think that Martha & James actually married. I cant find any record to match and I still think it odd that her death notice has Turner in brackets.
I can't find a marriage either, not in England and Wales records anyway. Might have popped across the border to Scotland, though.
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I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I don't think that Martha & James actually married. I cant find any record to match and I still think it odd that her death notice has Turner in brackets.
I can't find a marriage either, not in England and Wales records anyway. Might have popped across the border to Scotland, though.
I shall see what I can find on Gretna Green records if any
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Going back many pages I mentioned that on my Grandfather Marriage cert he gives his father's occupation as a miner rather than saying deceased as many other marriage certs I have say.
Could this be relevant or was he as stupid as his father.
Date was 1928
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The clergy probably just asked him for his fathers name and occupation. ??? I doubt that he would ask him if he was dead or alive ::)
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The clergy probably just asked him for his fathers name and occupation. ??? I doubt that he would ask him if he was dead or alive ::)
I have numerous marriage certs including my own on wife's side where it states father deceased just thought it was something that one would mention
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Depends how chatty they are when they are filling in the form ;D It is not a question that is generally asked.
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There is no official space for it on the certificate
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Depends how chatty they are when they are filling in the form ;D It is not a question that is generally asked.
Hmmm ok 8)
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Going back many pages I mentioned that on my Grandfather Marriage cert he gives his father's occupation as a miner rather than saying deceased as many other marriage certs I have say.
Could this be relevant or was he as stupid as his father.
Date was 1928
There have been ever so many threads on this very topic on Rootschat
As Rosie has said, the absence of the word ‘deceased’ after the father’s name most definitely does not mean he was still alive.
It just depended if the question ‘is your father still alive or is he dead’ happened to be asked, or, if it wasn’t, if either the bride or groom happened to offer the information.
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... the absence of the word ‘deceased’ after the father’s name most definitely does not mean he was still alive ...
... nor does its presence mean the father is no longer alive. :-\
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There is no official space for it on the certificate
This what I refer to Rosie
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According to the electorals (again!), James Brown and Martha (Brown) were together by the end of the war (perhaps not surprising).
It appears that when/if the 1921 census is released you will find Martha still living at 31 River View, Chopwell!
1931 has them at the aforementioned Landsale Houses, Ryton. Also Martha Isabella Bell.
An oddity
Mention in the newspapers preview of Mrs Colthard, 31, River View, Blackhall Mill, Hamsterley. She had received word that her husband Jacob had been wounded in 1915. He was in the Royal Navy, and died. Name is actually Coulthard
Jacob Coulthard (1884-1915)
http://www.durhamatwar.org.uk/story/13363/
So, I thought, the boarding house was still going strong (I'm sure it was!)
But if Jacob born 1884 was married, there is only one possible in the indexes
March 1913 Gateshead 10a 1586
Coulthard, Jacob - spouse Turner
Turner, Martha - spouse Coulthard
So which Martha Turner is that?
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Wow! Could it be?
Marriage, June 1918 Gateshead 10a 1594
Brown, James - spouse Coulthard
Coulthard, Martha - spouse Brown
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Wow, great finds. I'm intrigued!
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So Martha has married Jacob Coulthard then James Brown ?
It can't be Martha jnr as she would only be 15 in 1913
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That Durham at War biography of Jacob says
wife Martha Coulthard nee Turner
But have they seen the marriage certificate?
It would make some sense of one thing - Martha's husband dying in 1915 in the war. But it would have been Jacob, not William!
It all seems a bit bizarre at the moment. We need more info!
John
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Wow! Could it be?
Marriage, June 1918 Gateshead 10a 1594
Brown, James - spouse Coulthard
Coulthard, Martha - spouse Brown
They did live in Ryton, Gateshead in the 1939 register so does link to James Brown
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That Durham at War biography of Jacob says
wife Martha Coulthard nee Turner
But have they seen the marriage certificate?
It would make some sense of one thing - Martha's husband dying in 1915 in the war. But it would have been Jacob, not William!
It all seems a bit bizarre at the moment. We need more info!
John
I don't suppose you know if Jacob was a miner do you ?
Perhaps my grandad took him as his father and that's who he's on about dying in the war
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I know as much as you do about Jacob!
I am relying on that biography of him, which says that he was a miner in the 1901 census, and a labourer in the next one.
He would have been stepfather to your grandfather. That is, of course, if his wife Martha Turner was your Martha. How many Martha Turners could there be at 31 River View?
John
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I know as much as you do about Jacob!
I am relying on that biography of him, which says that he was a miner in the 1901 census, and a labourer in the next one.
He would have been stepfather to your grandfather. That is, of course, if his wife Martha Turner was your Martha. How many Martha Turners could there be at 31 River View?
John
Martha Isabella Bell 1931 will be Martha jnr married I guess
Indeed it is I've found a scribble I made last week of a marriage Martha I Turner married Louis E Bell 10A 1813 Dec 1930 Gateshead. I didn't follow it up as of yet though
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John those are really promising finds. A triumph of persistence!
Who needs paid researchers when we have Rootschatters like you :D
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Thank you, Jen.
It is indeed persistence. I think this one has had all of us totally gripped (obsessed?)
Davy, yes, it won't be Martha junior. Is there another Martha somewhere in the family? It could all be a fantastic coincidence, but then what happened to the widowed Martha after Jacob died?
What we do know is that a Martha Coulthard married a James Brown in 1918. Which may be one coincidence too many? Because there weren't lots and lots of people with that name.
Unless someone has a brainwave, it may come down to getting that marriage certificate.
The other thing is - if it is your Martha, then either she was a bigamist, or William Turner died before 1913!
John
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If you saw Martha it would surprise you she could find one husband never mind three.
She must have been a hell of a charmer coz she certainly wasn't a looker ;D
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Wow, John that's a great find.
So if I've followed it correctly, it's looking at the moment as if William either died or left between 1908 and 1911, Martha married Jacob Coultard in 1913 and he was killed in 1915. That would make perfect sense as unless she married soon after she met him, her children would have known him for at least 4 years, so possibly called him Dad.
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Thank you, Jen.
It is indeed persistence. I think this one has had all of us totally gripped (obsessed?)
Davy, yes, it won't be Martha junior. Is there another Martha somewhere in the family? It could all be a fantastic coincidence, but then what happened to the widowed Martha after Jacob died?
What we do know is that a Martha Coulthard married a James Brown in 1918. Which may be one coincidence too many? Because there weren't lots and lots of people with that name.
Unless someone has a brainwave, it may come down to getting that marriage certificate.
The other thing is - if it is your Martha, then either she was a bigamist, or William Turner died before 1913!
John
It all makes total sense John
William dies or leaves pre 1913. Martha marries Jacob who is now stepfather to my GF William who's only ten year old so when he says his father dies in WW1 then that fits. Martha then marries James Brown after the war and later on 1931 Martha jnr is living with them as Martha Bell as she married Louis Bell.
If Jacob was a miner then that would follow the story of my GF saying he had to go down the mines
Added: sorry Groom we posted at the same time with the same conclusion didn't see
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Wow, John that's a great find.
So if I've followed it correctly, it's looking at the moment as if William either died or left between 1908 and 1911, Martha married Jacob Coultard in 1913 and he was killed in 1915. That would make perfect sense as unless she married soon after she met him, her children would have known him for at least 4 years, so possibly called him Dad.
Agreed
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Guess it's time to give up on William Turner. All avenues have been exhausted.
Oh no they haven’t ;D
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Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
Maybe it’s time to think again about this death in Newcastle :-\
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Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
Maybe it’s time to think again about this death in Newcastle :-\
Remember that deaths were recorded where the person died, not where they lived - could he have died in a hospital in Newcastle? How far are we talking about from where he was living?
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Guess it's time to give up on William Turner. All avenues have been exhausted.
Oh no they haven’t ;D
I know Jen I'm a natural born pessimist.
Like I said earlier everyone has been amazing on here
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Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
Maybe it’s time to think again about this death in Newcastle :-\
Remember that deaths were recorded where the person died, not where they lived - could he have died in a hospital in Newcastle? How far are we talking about from where he was living?
10 mlies approx
Update: i was close its 13 miles by road
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Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
Maybe it’s time to think again about this death in Newcastle :-\
Remember that deaths were recorded where the person died, not where they lived - could he have died in a hospital in Newcastle? How far are we talking about from where he was living?
I think the possibility of him being in hospital, perhaps the RVI, was discussed earlier.
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Seemingly the only other possible death registration before then, other than the eliminated Lanchester one, looks to be
Dec 1910, Newcastle upon Tyne, William Turner, age 46
Maybe it’s time to think again about this death in Newcastle :-\
Remember that deaths were recorded where the person died, not where they lived - could he have died in a hospital in Newcastle? How far are we talking about from where he was living?
I think the possibility of him being in hospital, perhaps the RVI, was discussed earlier.
It was Jen but I don't think we took it further.
Would the death cert reveal any clues though as it will only mention who ever the witness was with him at the time ?
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Would the death cert reveal any clues though as it will only mention who ever the witness was with him at the time ?
Difficult to know. I have a couple who give the address where they died (a hospital) but then say "Usual Address" and give the address where they lived. The GRO still have their £6 online offer, so might be worth getting the certificate to satisfy yourself one way or the other.
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Would the death cert reveal any clues though as it will only mention who ever the witness was with him at the time ?
Difficult to know. I have a couple who give the address where they died (a hospital) but then say "Usual Address" and give the address where they lived. The GRO still have their £6 online offer, so might be worth getting the certificate to satisfy yourself one way or the other.
William Turner Dec 1910 Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 22 is that the one ?
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Wow! Could it be?
Marriage, June 1918 Gateshead 10a 1594
Brown, James - spouse Coulthard
Coulthard, Martha - spouse Brown
I think it could.
The medal papers for Jacob show that he died 2nd May 1915 and that his medals were delivered to his widow, MRS BROWN.
Also did you notice that although Jacob died while in the Royal Navy he originally enlisted in the Durham Light Infantry?
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This it?
Deaths Dec 1910
TURNER William 46
Newcastle T. 10b 22
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This it?
Deaths Dec 1910
TURNER William 46
Newcastle T. 10b 22
Thank you lol we posted at the same time again
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Wow! Could it be?
Marriage, June 1918 Gateshead 10a 1594
Brown, James - spouse Coulthard
Coulthard, Martha - spouse Brown
I think it could.
The medal papers for Jacob show that he died 2nd May 1915 and that his medals were delivered to his widow, MRS BROWN.
Also did you notice that although Jacob died while in the Royal Navy he originally enlisted in the Durham Light Infantry?
Ahhh wow totally fits Jen They said he was in The DLI
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1910 death cert ordered
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Just shows if you stick at it, and especially with so many of us, eventually it can be broken down. Our bills will be in the post. ;D ;D
If it proves correct, I think you ought to get back to the professional genealogist and tell them!
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Whilst everyone is pondering on this here is Martha.
No doubt you can see how she pulled three husbands with that beautiful face.
That's her bottom left as you look at it.
James Brown behind her.
Margaret Turner (nee Bowes) my GM next to her and William Turner my GF behind Margaret.
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Just shows if you stick at it, and especially with so many of us, eventually it can be broken down. Our bills will be in the post. ;D ;D
If it proves correct, I think you ought to get back to the professional genealogist and tell them!
Next time you're in Newcastle let me know and I'll treat you all to a drink.
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Just shows if you stick at it, and especially with so many of us, eventually it can be broken down. Our bills will be in the post. ;D ;D
If it proves correct, I think you ought to get back to the professional genealogist and tell them!
Next time you're in Newcastle let me know and I'll treat you all to a drink.
I’ll be on my way tomorrow ;D :D.
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You'd better have mine as well Jen as I'm over 300 miles away. ;D
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It was John who made the big breakthrough :) But I am happy to stand in for anyone who lives too far away. I can be there in 45 minutes using my trusty bus pass ;D
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This has been a fascinating thread to follow.
Here is a link to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission record for Jacob.....
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3054257/coulthard,-jacob/
PB
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This has been a fascinating thread to follow.
Here is a link to the Commonwealth War Graves Commission record for Jacob.....
https://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/3054257/coulthard,-jacob/
PB
Thank you for that 8)
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It was John who made the big breakthrough :) But I am happy to stand in for anyone who lives too far away. I can be there in 45 minutes using my trusty bus pass ;D
Yes fantastic work John.
Think you've knocked the nail on the head.
Still need to find Williams death but I'll update once I get the cert through.
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The medal papers for Jacob show that he died 2nd May 1915 and that his medals were delivered to his widow, MRS BROWN.
That was the brainwave we needed! Well done, Jen.
Good luck with the certificate, Davy.
John
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Whilst everyone is pondering on this here is Martha
She’s a fearsome looking lady :o
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Whilst everyone is pondering on this here is Martha
She’s a fearsome looking lady :o
I still think she did away with William.
I noticed on the Ryton Burials a unknown man was found on the foreshore of the River Tyne at Ryton Willows about 1910 i think it was, probarly him ;D
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Whilst everyone is pondering on this here is Martha
She’s a fearsome looking lady :o
Certainly was, but she must have had a good nature to attract 3 husbands.
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Whilst everyone is pondering on this here is Martha
She’s a fearsome looking lady :o
Certainly was, but she must have had a good nature to attract 3 husbands.
Do you not remember the news articles earlier Groom ?
She beat her mother up and attacked William's assailants with a poker ;D
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Well this is fantastic news. I was out for the evening, came back to see pages of posts and such great posts. Well done John ;)
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Do you not remember the news articles earlier Groom ?
She beat her mother up and attacked William's assailants with a poker
Oh gosh, I'd forgotten about that! Perhaps she was the one who did the proposing and they were too frightened to say no. ;D
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I don't suppose you know if Jacob was a miner do you ?
According to his RN Divisional Service Record, yes, he was.
If you saw Martha it would surprise you she could find one husband never mind three.
She must have been a hell of a charmer coz she certainly wasn't a looker ;D
Jacob's attestation in 1906 notes that he was considered unfit due to defective vision :-X ;D
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Do you not remember the news articles earlier Groom ?
She beat her mother up and attacked William's assailants with a poker
Oh gosh, I'd forgotten about that! Perhaps she was the one who did the proposing and they were too frightened to say no. ;D
:D ;) ;D
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I don't suppose you know if Jacob was a miner do you ?
According to his RN Divisional Service Record, yes, he was.
If you saw Martha it would surprise you she could find one husband never mind three.
She must have been a hell of a charmer coz she certainly wasn't a looker ;D
Jacob's attestation in 1906 notes that he was considered unfit due to defective vision :-X ;D
HA explains a lot ;D
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Well this is fantastic news. I was out for the evening, came back to see pages of posts and such great posts. Well done John ;)
Still need to find what happened to William.
Johns research definatly fits with my grandads story all be it his stepdad.
Hopefully the 1910 death cert will finalise things
So much new information today though including confirming that Martha Jnr married Louis Bell which I wasn't sure on.
Excellent work everyone
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A photo of the memorial including Jacob Coulthard is available at www.twgpp.org website (enter his name), £4 by email.
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And here's a picture of Jacob: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l66/
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And here's a picture of Jacob: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01l66/
Wow excellent thanks very much John
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I'm still female & still not John, but you're welcome ;D
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A photo of the memorial including Jacob Coulthard is available at www.twgpp.org website (enter his name), £4 by email.
Thank you
Died in Gallipoli I see
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This is getting better and better isn’t it, with that photo of Jacob?
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I'm still female & still not John, but you're welcome ;D
Lordy soooooo sorry I keep confusing you with Jonw65 how embarrassing :-[
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Been lying awake all night thinking about this lol
Would my GF not have been called William Coulthard if he was only 10 when Martha married Jacob ?
And the younger children as well John and Emma etc
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Well done John on making the breakthrough :)
If you saw Martha it would surprise you she could find one husband never mind three.
She must have been a hell of a charmer coz she certainly wasn't a looker ;D
You should never judge a book by it's cover ;D
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Been lying awake all night thinking about this lol
Would my GF not have been called William Coulthard if he was only 10 when Martha married Jacob ?
And the younger children as well John and Emma etc
Not necessarily, he didn't have to take his stepfather's surname. His 'given' name was Turner.
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I agree with Jen, he was registered as Turner and that is what he’d have been known as at school. There are plenty of examples where children have different names to their mother in censuses when there has been a remarriage. It is the mother who has married and changed her name, not the child.
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I agree with Jen, he was registered as Turner and that is what he’d have been known as at school. There are plenty of examples where children have different names to their mother in censuses when there has been a remarriage. It is the mother who has married and changed her name, not the child.
Ok that's good to know Jen and Groom thanks
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I think we must pay tribute to Martha for having great foresight in marrying Jacob. Not only did she choose a man with a relatively unusual name, but she also chose one whose service records survived and are available online, thus making it possible to make the vital link between her and James Brown.
So let’s hear it for Martha ;D :D
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I think we must pay tribute to Martha for having great foresight in marrying Jacob. Not only did she choose a man with a relatively unusual name, but she also chose one whose service records survived and are available online, thus making it possible to make the vital link between her and James Brown.
So let’s hear it for Martha ;D :D
;D ;D ;D ;D
I am glad she is being praised for something as Davy does not seem to have a very good opinion of her. ???
I think that we all tend to forget how hard times were then. ::) At least she remarried to hopefully give her family a bit better life than they would have had if she had struggled on her own or they had all gone into the workhouse.
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I think we must pay tribute to Martha for having great foresight in marrying Jacob. Not only did she choose a man with a relatively unusual name, but she also chose one whose service records survived and are available online, thus making it possible to make the vital link between her and James Brown.
So let’s hear it for Martha ;D :D
;D ;D ;D ;D
I am glad she is being praised for something as Davy does not seem to have a very good opinion of her. ???
I think that we all tend to forget how hard times were then. ::) At least she remarried to hopefully give her family a bit better life than they would have had if she had struggled on her own or they had all gone into the workhouse.
Just my sense of humour Rosie sorry.
I think it's a facinating story to be honest and yes respect to Martha
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Does anyone know how old this Jacob Coulthard was as if William was to old for joining up surely he was also.
Though I do see that he was in the Royal Navy Reserve so may have been more lenient on age.
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Does anyone know how old this Jacob Coulthard was
http://www.durhamatwar.org.uk/story/13363/
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Does anyone know how old this Jacob Coulthard was as if William was to old for joining up surely he was also.
He was 20 years younger than William. See details in link reply #212
added sorry Rosie, I see you've already given the link.
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So 14 years younger than Martha - a toy boy!
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Sorry Jen I did not go looking to see if it had been posted before on here (It would have taken ages ;D ) but it did answer Davy's question
So 14 years younger than Martha - a toy boy!
She must have had something about her then :D :D
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Fantastic information Rosie thank you very much :-*
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Sorry Jen I did not go looking to see if it had been posted before on here (It would have taken ages ;D ) but it did answer Davy's question
So 14 years younger than Martha - a toy boy!
She must have had something about her then :D :D
Would love to see a younger Martha photo but thats the only one I have
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John found it first. ;) I only found it as it was the top item when I put 'Jacob Coulthard' into google
An oddity
Mention in the newspapers preview of Mrs Colthard, 31, River View, Blackhall Mill, Hamsterley. She had received word that her husband Jacob had been wounded in 1915. He was in the Royal Navy, and died. Name is actually Coulthard
Jacob Coulthard (1884-1915)
http://www.durhamatwar.org.uk/story/13363/
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Sorry Jen I did not go looking to see if it had been posted before on here (It would have taken ages ;D ) but it did answer Davy's question
So 14 years younger than Martha - a toy boy!
She must have had something about her then :D :D
Was James Brown younger than Martha as well then ?
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Was James Brown younger than Martha as well then ?
Earlier on you said that James and Martha were found together in the 1939 register, so you could see his age from that ;)
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When did she remarry?
Just searching for that now Liz
she married James Brown (knowing as Jimmy to my Father) living together 1939 Register
Just about to say the same, Jen. If I'm looking at the right one, 5 years younger.
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Perhaps your course of action now Davy is to add all of this information to your tree then you can see clearly what you do not have ;D
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Perhaps your course of action now Davy is to add all of this information to your tree then you can see clearly what you do not have ;D
I agree with Rosie. I think that now you need to go systematically through every posting and make a note of all the relevant facts - ages, addresses etc. Then you will have all the information at your fingertips ;)
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Aye I will do
I'm away from home at the moment so doing everything on my mobile.
Remembered had his age on burial record as well
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Interesting find.
Jacob Coulthard was living a few doors down from Martha and her Father George Cowie in 1891.
He was aged 7 so did Martha age 20 used to babysit him :o
George Cowie and Jacob's father both worked at Consett Steel Works.
1891 Census
Residence Place:
Consett, Conside and Knitsley, Durham, England
Registration district:
Lanchester
Sub registration district:
Consett
ED, Institution or Vessel:
7
Piece:4090
Folio:42
So yet more proof to connect Martha and Jacob
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Naval record for Jacob Coulthard. Seems to have taken a long time to confirm his death and also wonder who Miss M C Ridley was.
Isobel
copyright images removed
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They did live in Ryton, Gateshead in the 1939 register so does link to James Brown
Just adding one more fact for you - they weren't living in Ryton itself in 1939, but in Greenside (which was in Ryton Urban District)
The pointer on the map is on Landsale Houses
https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/414363/562206/12/100954 (you might have to zoom out a little before the map appears)
I expect James worked at Greenside Colliery.
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This has been a great thread. Re Martha wasn't sure the mother assault was that clear cut from the article (not sure what page it was on to reference) who knows what kind of a woman she may have been?!
Also in that photo Martha looks toothless to me, hence the sunken look to her lower face - I expect her non toothless younger face might have been rather more attractive!
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What a fascinating thread this has been, and still is - I can't wait to hear what William Turner's death cert reveals. Well done John and all the other Rootschat detectives who have unravelled this mystery, you certainly put that professional genealogist to shame ;D
I have been having a nosey around, and 31 River View, Blackhall Mill is currently on the market, and a lovely house it is too! Any other nosey chatters might want a look here.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=51735375&sale=57947217&country=england
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I bet it didn't look like that when they lived there! If I were Davy I'd be tempted to go and have a look round. ;)
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What a fascinating thread this has been, and still is - I can't wait to hear what William Turner's death cert reveals. Well done John and all the other Rootschat detectives who have unravelled this mystery, you certainly put that professional genealogist to shame ;D
I have been having a nosey around, and 31 River View, Blackhall Mill is currently on the market, and a lovely house it is too! Any other nosey chatters might want a look here.
http://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices/detailMatching.html?prop=51735375&sale=57947217&country=england
Wow that is some size. I don't think Martha would have owned it.
Wonder what the circumstances were ? if it was mining company owned ?
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I bet it didn't look like that when they lived there! If I were Davy I'd be tempted to go and have a look round. ;)
I gonna pop over that way this week as well as visiting Martha and James Burial spot at Ryton. I might have a quick knock on the door with 1911 census in hand. See if they let me in :D
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Either that or phone the estate agent and pretend to be a prospective buyer. ;D
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I might have a quick knock on the door with 1911 census in hand. See if they let me in :D
Why not give it a go? After all, it looks like Martha was there for some time. They might be interested in the history of their house.
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I might have a quick knock on the door with 1911 census in hand. See if they let me in :D
Why not give it a go? After all, it looks like Martha was there for some time. They might be interested in the history of their house.
I'll give it a go lol. Though personally if I saw me standing at the door i wouldn't answer ;D
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I'll give it a go lol. Though personally if I saw me standing at the door i wouldn't answer ;D
You don't look like Martha do you? :D ;D ;D
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I'll give it a go lol. Though personally if I saw me standing at the door i wouldn't answer ;D
You don't look like Martha do you? :D ;D ;D
;)
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Just bookmarking this amazing story.
Excellent work by all :)
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Just bookmarking this amazing story.
Excellent work by all :)
Tis rather exciting Trish lol
Found Martha Isabella Jnr marriage but
Still need to find Emma, Elizabeth Jane and John George Turner marriage if you want to get involved :D
Just why we're waiting for Willy Turners death cert.
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Tis rather exciting Trish lol
Still need to find Emma, Elizabeth Jane and John George Turner marriage if you want to get involved :D
You would probably be better starting a new post for them :-\
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Tis rather exciting Trish lol
Still need to find Emma, Elizabeth Jane and John George Turner marriage if you want to get involved :D
You would probably be better starting a new post for them :-\
Aye was just joking Rosie thus the crazy rolling eyes emoticon.
I'm gonna do it Tuesday as working all weekend ;)
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I will look forward to it ;D
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Lets hope that they are more straight forward. ;D
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Lets hope that they are more straight forward. ;D
No idea who they married so gonna be interesting.
Just hit it lucky with Martha jnr I think John mentioned something about a Martha Bell and I just happened to have already found that marriage
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I have nothing to add to this post, history wise, but i have been enthralled with this from the beginning. First thing i do when i get up every morning (I'm in Australia lol), after making my coffee is sit and read the new comments.
Well done to everyone who has found such amazing information and I bet a brick wall has been halved for you Davy :)
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I have nothing to add to this post, history wise, but i have been enthralled with this from the beginning. First thing i do when i get up every morning (I'm in Australia lol), after making my coffee is sit and read the new comments.
Well done to everyone who has found such amazing information and I bet a brick wall has been halved for you Davy :)
Yes the folks on here have been amazing. It certainly all makes sense now what my Grandad told me as a kid he just got mixed up a little with who was who I think. He certainly never mentioned a stepfather to my Dad as he went to the Menin Gate to look for this William Turner.
Just waiting on this death certificate coming through and see if that gives any more clues to William Turner's death.
I've found a second cousin and am in daily contact thanks to the posts on here.
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:D Blimey AT LAST
Got the bugger
William Turner is now laid to rest
He did indeed die 1910 at The Royal Victoria Infirmary
6th Nov 1910 living at 31 Wansbeck Street, Chopwell, Durham
Chronic Bronchitis
Syncope
Informant Martha Isabella Turner same address
I feel quite emotional
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Oh that is absolutely fantastic. Well done you!! Well done Martha for being the informant!
That’s really made my day.
The whole story now unravelled :D :D ;D
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Oh that is absolutely fantastic. Well done you!! Well done Martha for being the informant!
That’s really made my day.
The whole story now unravelled :D :D ;D
Huge thanks to everyone involved in helping me find him.
Couldn't believe it when I saw informants name.
Just need to find where's he's buried now :D
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:) ;D Well done
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Couldn't believe it when I saw informants name.
Martha has been most helpful throughout as I said earlier ;D The informant could easily have been someone at the hospital and you’d have been none the wiser.
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This has been a fascinating - if complicated - story to follow, but what a great feeling when all the pieces fall into place 😀
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Wonderful news! Very pleased for you.
PB :)
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Great outcome, so pleased for you.
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Do you think that if he died at the RVI Newcastle upon Tyne 13 miles from Chopwell he would have probably been buried near to the hospital or shipped back home ?
I know its like asking how long is a piece of string
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That's absolutely fantastic, I bet that's made your Christmas. :)
Thank goodness that Martha was the informant, as that clinches it beyond all doubt. It's a great feeling when everything comes together isn't it and just shows what a brilliant site this is - better than any professional genealogist. It also shows how you can't always believe family stories as they can be a bit like Chinese whispers.
Hopefully now you can find his final resting place and go and tell him what a lot of trouble ( and expense) he has caused.
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That's absolutely fantastic, I bet that's made your Christmas. :)
Thank goodness that Martha was the informant, as that clinches it beyond all doubt. It's a great feeling when everything comes together isn't it and just shows what a brilliant site this is - better than any professional genealogist. It also shows how you can't always believe family stories as they can be a bit like Chinese whispers.
Hopefully now you can find his final resting place and go and tell him what a lot of trouble ( and expense) he has caused.
Yup working on finding his grave now ::)
Its totally mad how the story got passed down and then the truth. I only wished my Dad could have known with him going to Ypres and all.
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Yup working on finding his grave now ::)
A visit to Tyne & Wear Archives might be in order :-\ They hold all the cemetery records. Your search will be all the easier because you know the date on which he died. They have also got the records for the church at Chopwell.
Alternatively go to Newcastle Central Library and take a look at the Evening Chronicle for November 1910, just in case there is a death announcement which contains place of burial :-\
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Yup working on finding his grave now ::)
A visit to Tyne & Wear Archives might be in order :-\ They hold all the cemetery records. Your search will be all the easier because you know the date on which he died. They have also got the records for the church at Chopwell.
Alternatively go to Newcastle Central Library and take a look at the Evening Chronicle for November 1910, just in case there is a death announcement which contains place of burial :-\
Good advice thanks Jen
Don't suppose you fancy a day out there after Christmas to help me. I'll treat you to Lunch ;D
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A very kind invite - I've sent you a PM explaining how health problems are getting in the way ::)
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Here's a link to another Turner mystery: Where is William's father John in 1891, and when did his mother die? It seems Martha wasn't the only member of the Turner family to turn violent ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=782485.msg6369637#msg6369637
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Here's a link to another Turner mystery: Where is William's father John in 1891, and when did his mother die? It seems Martha wasn't the only member of the Turner family to turn violent ;)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=782485.msg6369637#msg6369637
Thanks for adding the link Jen
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William still proving to be a problem. Just came back from the records office and no sign of his burial in any of the Newcastle Upon Tyne Cemeteries or those nearer his address at the time of Death.
So absolutely no idea where this fella is buried.
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This is a possible TURNER, WILLIAM 46
1910 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 22.
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This is a possible TURNER, WILLIAM 46
1910 D Quarter in NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE Volume 10B Page 22.
Hi Cantu, welcome to Rootschat.
Yes, that proved to be the right person, davytee got the death certificate just before Christmas
see reply #312 on page 35 of this thread :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=783780.msg6392722#msg6392722
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William still proving to be a problem. Just came back from the records office and no sign of his burial in any of the Newcastle Upon Tyne Cemeteries or those nearer his address at the time of Death.
So absolutely no idea where this fella is buried.
Have you checked if he's buried in the graveyard of St John's Church at Chopwell?
Jay
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William still proving to be a problem. Just came back from the records office and no sign of his burial in any of the Newcastle Upon Tyne Cemeteries or those nearer his address at the time of Death.
So absolutely no idea where this fella is buried.
Have you checked if he's buried in the graveyard of St John's Church at Chopwell?
Jay
Hi Jay yeah I've checked Chopwell and all cemeteries in Newcastle upon Tyne.
I've a few to check in Durham area though I've gone through most of them.
It could be a fact that he was put into a paupers grave but then there should still be a record