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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Peggy13 on Sunday 11 November 18 04:47 GMT (UK)
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I am researching a Thomas Lennox and have been trying very hard to find his parents. Thomas was born abt 1834 in Ireland but married Jane Donnison on Aug 11, 1856 in Gateshead, Co. Durham, England. I don't have the marriage record to see if his parents are named. I have found the family in Heworth, Durham, England on the 1871, 1881, 1891, and 1901 censii although Jane had died in 1897 (I don't have her exact date of death or her parents either). I can't seem to bring them up in 1861. Tonight, on familysearch, I found an entry for Thomas Lennox living in Heworth in 1851 as son,age 16, so that means he was living with his parents in 1851 in Heworth. Would anyone have access to that census to see who his parents were? I would be so very appreciative if anyone could help me with this.
Thank you.
Peggy
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Living in Heworth Lane, Chapelry of Heworth.
Maria LENNOX, Head. Widow. Aged 48.Occ. A labourer in Prussiate Works. Born Ireland
Thomas LENNOX, Son. Aged 16. Occ As above. Born Ireland
No others
Sue
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Fantastic. Thanks so much. We at least have a mother so half way there. I wonder if there is an 1841 census, can't remember if England did one in that year.
At least, I now know that the family tree online with Margaret McLernon as Thomas' mother is incorrect.
Peggy
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Another thought. Thomas Lennox died Oct 24, 1903 and I have Gateshead, Co. Durham, England but thinking it is probably Heworth, Co. Durham, England. Would his death certificate have his parents' names on it?
Peggy
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She is accounted in 1861. With some amazing changes!
At Heworth Lane
Maria LENNOX. Head. Married. Aged 47. Chem Works Lab. Born Ireland
Gateshead, Heworth
Household schedule number 156
Piece 3798
Folio 42
Page number 28
No others.
Sue
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Hmmm. Amazing. She is one year younger that she was in 1851, and now she is married! No wonder I am having so much trouble sorting the family out. Could she have married another Lennox, although that won't account for the age difference, only the marital status. When I have been searching, it seems there were other Lennox families in Heworth. But if she remarried to another Lennox, where is the husband? Confusing.
Thanks for your help
Peggy
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Another thought. Thomas Lennox died Oct 24, 1903 and I have Gateshead, Co. Durham, England but thinking it is probably Heworth, Co. Durham, England. Would his death certificate have his parents' names on it?
Peggy
If known to the informant. A great deal of room for error here.
I would be seeking an Irish marriage for Maria, if there was one at all. She and Thomas do not seem to be on 1841.
(others may have more luck)
Thomas named early sons James and Thomas. They may be considerations for his father's name.
Sue
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If that is her on the 1861, then there is only one death that fits:
Mar 1864 Tadcaster 9c 453
LENNOX Maria
I can’t see her on the 1871, nor on the 1841.
I couldn’t see his birth or marriage for his folks in Irish records. I think they occurred pre record.
Jamjar
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Peggy, you say there is an online tree, are there siblings for Thomas?
Jamjar
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A year difference in age between censuses is nothing to be concerned about. Her marital status could simply be an error in recording.
Similarly differences between census ages and death ages:
Dec 1903 10a 571
Lennox Thomas 66 Gateshead
This gives him a birth year of 1837.
Jamjar
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Jane's and Thomas' death notices appeared in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle -
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/DeathNotices/deaths_LEAD
These notices will on microfilm at Newcastle library.
Marriage Locator seems to indicate that the marriage of Thomas and Jane took place between one of two Churches. So my guess is they married at Heworth, St Mary.
http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1856&qtr=3&vol=10a&page=599&search=search
You will be able to view the record at Tyne and Wear Archives if you are near there and can visit. :)
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Jane's and Thomas' death notices appeared in the Newcastle Evening Chronicle -
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/DeathNotices/deaths_LEAD
These notices will on microfilm at Newcastle library.
Marriage Locator seems to indicate that the marriage of Thomas and Jane took place between one of two Churches. So my guess is they married at Heworth, St Mary.
http://www.marriage-locator.co.uk/cgi-bin/ML_search.cgi?year=1856&qtr=3&vol=10a&page=599&search=search
You will be able to view the record at Tyne and Wear Archives if you are near there and can visit. :)
Sorry, I erred here.
Jamjar
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Another thought. Thomas Lennox died Oct 24, 1903 and I have Gateshead, Co. Durham, England but thinking it is probably Heworth, Co. Durham, England. Would his death certificate have his parents' names on it?
Peggy
Hello Peggy
Just to clarify your earlier query - the death cert will not list his parents. The name of the informant may be helpful and it can be surprising what helpful little nuggets sometimes pop up on death certificates, but there was no requirement to provide the name of either parent.
See here for the information you can expect to see on civil reg certificates:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#CertificateInformation
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Another thought. Thomas Lennox died Oct 24, 1903 and I have Gateshead, Co. Durham, England but thinking it is probably Heworth, Co. Durham, England. Would his death certificate have his parents' names on it?
Peggy
Hello Peggy
Just to clarify your earlier query - the death cert will not list his parents. The name of the informant may be helpful and it can be surprising what helpful little nuggets sometimes pop up on death certificates, but there was no requirement to provide the name of either parent.
See here for the information you can expect to see on civil reg certificates:
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/most_customers_want_to_know.asp#CertificateInformation
Sorry for misleading you, Peggy!
Sue
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I did a lengthy reply which evaporated so here we go again. According to Dave Bradley's website, Thomas's parents were Thomas Lennox and Margaret McClernon and that Margaret was in Durham in 1851 and died about 1860 (this is close to Maria's death in 1864). This would agree with another tree that seems to think Margaret and Maria are the same person. According to Dave Bradley on Geneanet, Thomas Sr. died in 1827 which would make it impossible for him to be the father of Thomas born in 1834. But on Rootsweb, the same Dave Bradley has an alternate date of death of abt 1845 in Magherafelt which fits the picture better.
According to Dave on Geneanet, Thomas and Jane had children
F Elizabeth (S) Lennox 1858-1875
M James Lennox 1859-1944 (note - Peggy thinks from censuses that James was born 1864 unless
there was another James born in 1859 who died.
F Eleanor Jane (Married a Lewison) Lennox 1869- Peggy knows from 1891 and 1901 censuses that
Eleanor married Robert McGuire unless her second marriage was a Lewison)
M Thomas Lennox 1872-1911
M Nicholas Lennox 1874-1923
M Joseph Lennox Oct 22, 1875 to Apr 21, 1876
Another tree had children for Thomas and Jane of Mary Jane, James, John and Thomas with no years of birth given, between Elizabeth in 1858 and James in 1864. This fits with an earlier James born in 1859 but since both are born July perhaps there is no 1859 James.
Thanks everyone for your help and the dates of death for Jane, and Thomas and Maria. At first, I was sceptical that Margaret and Maria were the same person but maybe.......
Thomas Jr. had siblings Mary Anne born abt 1827, Samuel born abt 1825, Jane born abt 1826, and possibly a previous Thomas or perhaps the date of birth for Thomas was never 1820 but 1834. I have traced Jane and Mary Anne.
Peggy
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Children:
LENNOX, ELIZABETH mmn DONNISON
GRO Reference: 1858 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 532
LENNOX, JAMES mmn DONALDSON
GRO Reference: 1859 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 540
LENNOX, MARY JANE mmn DONNISON
GRO Reference: 1861 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 541
LENNIX, JAMES mmn DONALSON
GRO Reference: 1864 J Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 627
LENNOX, JOHN DONNISON mmn DONNISON
GRO Reference: 1866 S Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 635
LENNOX, ELEANOR JANE mmn DONNISON
GRO Reference: 1869 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 634
LENNOX, THOMAS mmn DONNISON
GRO Reference: 1871 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 722
LENNOX, NICHOLAS mmn DONNISON
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 869
LENNOX, JOSEPH mmn DONNISON
GRO Reference: 1875 D Quarter in GATESHEAD Volume 10A Page 795
Jamjar
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Possible death of Mary Jane:
Sep 1861
Lennox Mary Jane Gateshead 10a 290
There are 3 deaths for a James Lennox, June, September and December 1862 GATESHEAD.
The marriage you mention:
Dec 1889 Gateshead 10a 1302
LENNOX Eleanor Jane
MCGUIRE Robert
Her death?:
Jun 1922 Gateshead 10a 885
McGuire Eleanor 52
As an aside, I would go with Mary as an alternative to Maria, before Margaret.
Jamjar
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Wow, Jamjar, this is terrific. You have found all the children for Thomas and Jane. And helped me so much in building this tree correctly. I wonder why all these children died. Looks like Eleanor did not marry a Lewison as she died as McGuire.
I agree that Mary and Maria are a better match for alternatives. I wonder where or why the name Margaret was presented.
Another thought is that the father of Thomas Sr. Is supposed to be Edward and yet there is no Edward in his children or his son’s children. Of course, I could be missing some of Thomas Sr.’s siblings as records in Ireland are sparse in that time frame. Food for thought though.
Thanks again everyone for all the help. If I want more exact dates for the children, would I have to order the certificates?
Peggy
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Another thought. Thomas Lennox died Oct 24, 1903 and I have Gateshead, Co. Durham, England but thinking it is probably Heworth, Co. Durham, England. Would his death certificate have his parents' names on it?
Peggy
Gateshead Registration District included Heworth
https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/gateshead.html
Boo
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Thanks Boo, for the help.
For Jamjar, did there happen to be a Thomas born abt 1862 to Thomas Lennox and Jane Donnison?
What site did you use to find the info on their children?
Peggy
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I didn’t see a Thomas: https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
To answer your question, yes, to get birthdates would require cert purchases. There are some christenings for some of the sons on FamilySearch, though.
Jamjar
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Baptisms for 3 of the children, all at Heworth St Mary (images from the Bishops Transcripts)
22 Oct 1875 - Joseph
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n0i/
18th Feb 1874 - Nicholas
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n0j/
27th Nov 1871 - Thomas
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01n0k/
That's all I have time to find tonight, it may be worth you checking the burial register images for the possible death years to see if there are any likely burials for the children who died.
Boo
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Thank you Boo. It is great to see the actual records.
Peggy
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Hello, I did not find any births other than the ones that you sent the links for but I did find deaths for Elizabeth, James born 1859, Mary Jane, Thomas born 1862 (which we presume belongs to Thomas and Jane), and John born 1866. the ages at death are given but not the cause of death or the parents).
When I did find the birth of Samuel, son of Thomas Sr. in Ireland, his mother's name is given as Margaret McLernon, not Mary or Maria. The next entry was for Jane Lennox, daughter of Thomas Lennox and Margaret Lennox, so wondering if Margaret's surname was given in error as Lennox, although there were many Lennox-Lennox marriages. In this case, I think it was an error. Strange though that Samuel was baptised Nov 1825 and Jane Jan 1826. Twins? Late Baptism for Samuel?
This has been a lot of work but I think we have sorted out the family.
Peggy
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According to Dave Bradley's website, Thomas's parents were Thomas Lennox and Margaret McClernon and that Margaret was in Durham in 1851 and died about 1860 (this is close to Maria's death in 1864). This would agree with another tree that seems to think Margaret and Maria are the same person. According to Dave Bradley on Geneanet, Thomas Sr. died in 1827 which would make it impossible for him to be the father of Thomas born in 1834. But on Rootsweb, the same Dave Bradley has an alternate date of death of abt 1845 in Magherafelt which fits the picture better.
According to Dave on Geneanet, Thomas and Jane had children
Peggy
I have not seen the work of Dave Bradley and you have not said clearly whether any certificates are cited or viewable in this work.
I find the statements regarding her husband, her death, her whereabouts and timelines all very vague and therefore open to serious doubt. Even her given name is not correct.
The fact that it agrees with another tree is possibly an indication that one has simply copied the other, again without verification.
You say in your opening post you do not have the certificate of marriage for Thomas LENNOX and Jane DONNISON.
Do you intend to purchase it?
Sue
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Dave Bradley has done extensive work on the Johnston, Lennox, and Bradley families of Co. Derry, Ireland. He has work posted on Geneanet and on Rootsweb but no, there are no viewable certificates.
His work is great but needs to be verified by oneself. It appears that he has borrowed some info from other trees so there is room for error.
I have paid for many certificates online for Ireland but don't think I have ordered any for England before. If I did order Thomas and Jane's marriage, only the father would be named so wouldn't help with Margaret/Maria situation. The Irish certificates only name the father. I guess three records might be in order - thomas and Margaret's marriage, Thomas' birth, and Thomas and Jane's marriage. Thomas and Margaret were supposedly married Nov 10, 1820 in Lisnamorrow so would need to hit the right church as civil records were not available in that time frame. I did find Samuel's birth at Wood's Chapel, Ireland when I was there in Oct this year and it gave his parents as Thomas Lennox and Margaret McLernon. Samuel is supposedly a brother to Thomas Jr. Perhaps his parents' marriage is there as well,and Thomas' birth although I think Wood's Chapel marriage records only start in 1820.
By the way, I live in Canada so cannot visit any facilities in England.
Peggy
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Witnesses on marriage certificates often give clues too. ;)
Sue
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I was looking into ordering the marriage record for Thomas and Jane but it looks like you have to get a 3 month subscription instead of ordering individual records. What is the best way to do this?
Peggy
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There is no subscription required from GRO. You simply register and then log in to proceed. The instructions are here.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/login.asp
Once you are registered, you need the basic details of the marriage which you will have from https://www.freebmd.org.uk/ and a plastic card.
Sue
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Well, I ordered. Not sure why, as he is not in my direct tree but curious I guess. One thing I was wondering about, aside from what has been discussed here, is the name of Thomas Jr.'s father as wondering why there is no Edward in any descendants (Edward should be his grandfather). However, the name of the firstborn son is James and second Thomas. His Will was probated by James Lennox and James Donnison, as per online into.
The certificate is estimated to be processed Dec 4 and will probably take a couple weeks to get to me, especially if the Canadian mail strike affects delivery. There are rotating mail strikes at the moment.
Peggy
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I am sure many here will be interested in the certificate's contents, so do share when it comes. ;D
Sue
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Ok, I will share.
Peggy
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Just for future reference Peggy, the GRO site also now has a facility to order a .pdf copy of death and birth entries (not an official cert but it includes all the info) for £6 rather than the £9.25 for a cert. They email within a week or so an give a link to download it. Saves a little money and is a lot quicker especially if you are outside the UK.
Sadly marriages are not yet included in this scheme, but I live in hope (and always complete the feedback and ask for marriages to be added if I order a pdf)
Boo
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That is good to know Boo. I did feel that 9.25 was rather steep and I would be OK with email.
Peggy
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I ordered the death certificate for Maria Lennox on July 23, 2020 by phone from Leeds registry office. I am hoping it is the correct Maria Lennox, mother of Thomas Lennox, born 1834/35. I was told that it would be processed within 5 days, I presume working days. However, I am still waiting, as of Aug 31. Will call again tomorrow. I will also call about the marriage certificate for Thomas ordered in Nov. and was to be processed Dec 4, 2019.
Peggy
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Hello,
I have received the death certificate of Maria Lennox who died in Parlington, Sub-district of Aberford, Yorkshire on Mar 10, 1864. Sadly, it is not the correct person. That Maria was the wife of George Lennox, Tailor Master, cause of death Morbus Cordis (will have to google that) and Sarah Cooper was present at death in Parlington. Maria was 52.
I am awaiting the marriage certificate of Thomas Lennox and Jane Donnison, expecting it in a couple more weeks. I had ordered it once before, but 3 months had passed before I enquired as to not receiving it, and so I had to re-pay.
Peggy
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I did finally receive the marriage certificate for Thomas Lennox and Jane Donnison and his father is Thomas. This also confirms that the Maria who died in 1864 in Tadcaster, which ended up being Parlington, was not the correct Maria as her husband was George Lennox. I believe her maiden name was Liverock and she married George in the 1850s (his second wife)/
So we have Thomas' mother Maria in 1861 in Heworth, then she disappears. Did she die or remarry?
Peggy
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I have written to the library in Newcastle regarding the death notices for both Jane and Thomas, who lived in Heworth Lane.
Peggy
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Hi Peggy,
When the Newcastle local studies eventually reopens and if my work hours fit (they likely will) I would be happy to look up the notices for you if you can wait.
The library local studies staff have a minimum look up charge of £30.
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I have written to the library in Newcastle regarding the death notices for both Jane and Thomas, who lived in Heworth Lane.
Peggy
Can't help with Jane's as the Evening Chronicle for 1897 is not yet online but this is the notice for Thomas:
Newcastle Evening Chronicle
26 Oct 1903, page 2 col 1
LENNOX At his residence, Black Bull, Heworth Lane, 24th inst., aged 68. Thomas Lennox, beloved husband of the late Jane Lennox. To be interred at Heworth on Wednesday; lift at 3.30 Friends please accept this, the only intimation.
As Heworth Cemetery did not open till 1941, he would have been buried at St Mary Churchyard, Heworth.
https://www.gravestonephotos.com If you search on there , there is a gravestone photo available they show a thumbnail photo - click the button marked 'request a free image of this monument' and you will get a larger, higher resolution photo.
EDIT I have just looked at the details on the Gravestone site, the list says that Thomas, aged 68 died in 1893 but I still think this could well be the right grave and perhaps the stone was weathered and the transcriber had difficulty making out the death year?
https://www.gravestonephotos.com/public/cemeterylist.php?cemetery=4804&limit=201
click on the GPR ref no to take you to the page where you can request the larger image.
Boo
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Thank you for your kind offer, River Tyne Lass. I had no idea there would be such a heavy charge. Since Boo found Thomas' death notice online, I would only need Jane's. And yes, I can wait.
Thank you Boo for Thomas' death notice. Also, the info about seeing the photo. I did manage to see the image which was great to see. This is indeed the correct stone. Thomas and Jane lost many children at young ages which would be heartbreaking.
I can well see that the transcriber could make a mistake about Thomas Sr.'s year of death, as it could look like 1893, although once you know it is 1903, that seems clear.
Thanks again to both of you.
Peggy
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On findmypast, there is indexed a death for a Thomas Lennox, born 1802, died 1874, Gateshead, Durham, England. Wondering if this is Maria's husband - she does say married in 1861. Also, on the 1851, there is a Thomas Lennox in Gateshead. This would fit with Maria and Thomas being separated although she says widow. the marriage might even be in England instead of Ireland.
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There is a Thomas Lennox, who died Nov 17, 1874 in Gateshead Parish, dob abt 1802. Does anyone have access to further info regarding this person?
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There is a Thomas Lennox, who died Nov 17, 1874 in Gateshead Parish, dob abt 1802. Does anyone have access to further info regarding this person?
The images for this cemetery are available to view on Family Search
The burial record at Gateshead East Cemetery says he was 'buried' 17 Nov, so he probably died a day or two before then. His address at the time of death was West Street
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSJ4-TVWL?
Boo
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Thank you very much Boo. Too bad it doesn’t name anyone related to him such as wife or daughter or father or…….. I will see what I can find, if anything under what the address with Street
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Sorry, should say address West Street.
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The burial record in 1874 says he was buried in Section H, grave 4839
The Grave Registers for Gateshead East Cemetery are also available to view on Family Search, so I had a look in the hope that a relation was buried in the same grave but it looks like he was the only burial in that grave.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QHV-L3VC-ZKCG?
A civil death cert/pdf may give some clues if the informant was a relation.
Boo
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Thanks again, Boo. I think I will order the death certificate.
Peggy
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Certificate ordered from GRO. 7 pounds for PDF compared to 79 pounds for a certified certificate from BMDArchives, on sale from regular price of 179 pounds. I really think this might be Maria's husband.
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Certificate ordered from GRO. 7 pounds for PDF compared to 79 pounds for a certified certificate from BMDArchives, on sale from regular price of 179 pounds. I really think this might be Maria's husband.
GRO prices I know about
but ....????
Who are BMDArchives that have a price of 179 pounds for a cert?
Boo
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I googled death certificates, co. durham, england and BMDArchives came up, but when I saw the price, I went elsewhere.
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I googled death certificates, co. durham, england and BMDArchives came up, but when I saw the price, I went elsewhere.
oh well you must be way more charitable than I then. I'd have done my best to report them to the GRO/police/scam report sites/ . . .their Mam if I could find her! <g>.
I still would but despite searching I can find no trace of the site.
That's a HUGE amount of money and though the majority of folk would just look, giggle at the price and move along, someone, somewhere will have fallen for it.
I really, really dislike any site which charges ott amounts for something easily obtainable at the least possible price.
Boo
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https://bmdarchives.co.uk/
Certified Death Copy
£179.00 Sale £79.00
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I received the death certificate of Thomas Lennox 1874 and it is hard to know if it is Maria's husband even though I think not. The informant was Mary A. Robinson of 1 Eldon Court, so I have been trying to find her. Thomas was age 72, resident of West Street, worker at Coal Depot.
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I have figured out who Thomas Lennox was, who died in 1874. He was born in Co. Tyrone, Ireland abt 1817 as per all the censuses in Co. Durham but his death record has his birth as about 1802. Thomas married Mary Ann Lennox, nee Lennox, born Scotland, Apr 3, 1859 in Gateshead, unverified. They had Rebecca 1860, Andrew 1862, Eleanor abt 1865, and Mary Ann abt 1867. Son Andrew died Apr 1891.
Doesn't help with the Thomas that I was looking for.