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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Treetotal on Thursday 27 February 20 15:28 GMT (UK)
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I would love to know what this message says if anyone has the time or inclination to make sense of it.
Thanks for looking.
Carol
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Here is the whole reverse side of it.
Carol
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Haha! My g'mother used to write backwards so you needed a mirror to read it. :)
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So far I have..."Be sure to start in the right place where later I hope you are still following this....."best regards to Father and Mother not forgetting yourself and Joe believe me, yours sincerely ....."
Well that's the easy bit out of the way ::) ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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Start in the centre - Dear Edith - then he/she apologies that Edith didn't understand the last letter!!
I got giddy while reading it!
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Thanks Kay...It's a start....Dear Edith, sorry to hear you could not understand....He does say be sure to start in the centre....I have gone google eyed ;D
Carol
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Here is the front showing the joker who wrote it, Edith appears to be his Sister who is proving to be elusive...not sure whether she married Joe who is mentioned ??? His expression even suggests he is challenging the reader ;D
Carol
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Dear Edith I was sorry to hear you could not understand the last card. But I hope you will make this one out alright. I hope you had a nice time at Richmond on Monday. I was sorry I did not see you or I would have told you about this one. Tell your mother I will be sending her a proper photo as soon as I can get time to do one. My camera was a bit of a failour on Monday I only got one or two out of them but will let you see them later. I hope you are still following this reading you must let me know when you have made it out is it not awful too bad do you not think so.* You might give my kind regards to Father & mother not forgetting your self & Joe believe me yours sincerely
[The backwards bit, but unsure where it goes] - rather pretty is it not
P.S. Be sure you start in the right place
(* unsure if these underlined words are in the right order!)
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Aw thanks Bookbox 8) ...what a star you are :-* You always come up trumps...thanks so much for taking the time, so quick too...I was expecting the message to be worked out in dribs and drabs over a day or two. I really appreciate your input. Now to find her ;D ;D
Carol
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The easiest way was to print it out and turn it around while reading. But I'd advise you (or someone else) to check I've got it right!
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Cross-hatched writing also presented a problem :) Back in the days when our ancestors migrated, paper and postage were expensive, so they made the most of both. No need for any work on this - just an example.
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Cross-hatched writing also presented a problem :) Back in the days when our ancestors migrated, paper and postage were expensive, so they made the most of both. No need for any work on this - just an example.
I've seen that before on war time letters....I'm pleased about that BB ;D
Carol
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The easiest way was to print it out and turn it around while reading. But I'd advise you (or someone else) to check I've got it right!
Good tip Bookbox ;D
Carol
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Now to find her ;D ;D
Carol
This could be Edith in 1891 in West Witton, Yorkshire. There is a boarder called Joseph Stephenson with them.
Richard Wooff, head, b 1863, Whorlton, Yorkshire
Sarah Wooff, wife, b 1859, Forcett, Yorkshire
Ernest Wooff, son, b 1884, Gainford, Durham
Edith Wooff, daur, b 1887, Staindrop, Durham
Joseph Stephenson, boarder, b 1890, Newcastle, Northumberland
The family can be followed in 1901 in Romanby, Northallerton, Joseph Stephenson still with them, Ernest not there. Also 1911 in Brampton Brian, Herefordshire, Joseph and Ernest not with them.
EDIT. Ernest is with Uncle and Aunt, William and Jane Neasham in 1901 in Thornaby. Ernest died in 1903 so he is not the letter writer.
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Richard Wooff was a woodman in 1891, and a game keeper in 1901 and 1911. Maybe he was working at Forcett Hall and the family lived in the grounds of the Hall when the postcard was sent in 1905. (Assuming this is the correct family ??? ;D )
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Aw that's really interesting Jool, it certainly looks like the right Family. I thought he looked like he could be a chauffeur, did you notice the ring on the little finger of his left hand? It looks as though it is a shield. I am intrigued as to who the letter writer is. I thought there were initials after the word sincerely, but now I think it is two kisses. Thanks for taking the time to search for them :D
Carol
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I wondered what sort of cap it was, you may be right about chauffeur.
However, I think the family I posted earlier may not be the right one ::)
I am working on a new theory based on this marriage:
Joseph Woof married Edith Ellen Thornton Dec Q 1901 Holbeck, 9b 580.
Also a newspaper announcement from the Yorkshire Evening Post 12 November 1918.
"THORNTON - Killed in action Oct 11 1918, Serg. R.W. Thornton, West Yorks. From his only sister Edith Woof"
Note, only one F in Woof.
I have to go now to do some boring stuff, be back later. If anyone else wants to follow this up in the meantime please do.
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That's a great bit of sleuthing Jool..... I will delve a bit more tomorrow to see if there is a Hull connection where the photo ended up. I appreciate you spending time to help me to find the family. Your input is much appreciated as always
:-*
Added: Edith must have married after 1905 as the sender addressed Edith as Miss Edith Wooff :-\
Carol
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Added: Edith must have married after 1905 as the sender addressed Edith as Miss Edith Wooff :-\
Carol
Edith was born Thornton, she married Joseph Woof in 1901, so by 1905 when the postcard was sent she was Edith Woof ;D
Joseph Woof married Edith Ellen Thornton Dec Q 1901 Holbeck, 9b 580.
Edith's brother who died in WW1 was Robert Wilfred Thornton b 1884 Leeds - I am trying to prove/disprove that he was the post card writer. His WW1 service record gives Edith Woof as his half sister, which may fit with the line on the postcard "Tell your mother I will be sending her a proper photo as soon as I can get time to do one". Maybe they had the same father but different mother.
I am still trying to fathom out this complicated family.
Ignore my first posts #13 and #14 with Edith Woof and Joseph Stephenson in the same household - I think they are the wrong family.
EDIT. AAAAHGGGGGGHHHH. MISS Edith Wooff - I'm with you now. Hmmm, back to the drawing board :-\
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Aw never mind Jool...thanks for looking...I think your first one is most likely to be right. I have found a couple of trees with her in, and Mother's maiden name was Gates but no other info confirmed for Edith after 1911 yet.
It's odd that the postcard is just address as Forcett Darlington
Still looking.
Added:
Marriages Jun 1914
Beck James Wooff Hereford 6a 1219
Heiron Alban Jones Hereford 6a 1219
Jones Mabel E Heiron Hereford 6a 1219
Wooff Edith Beck Hereford 6a
Carol
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So many things seem right about family of Edith born to Richard and Sarah,except Ernest dying in 1903.However,he was with the Neashams in 1901(William and Jane nee Gates,sister to Sarah),and was employed on the railways(is that a railwayman's hat in the portrait.Is the person portrayed 19 or less?).Perhaps he had a number of portrait postcards done and one of the Neashams used it in 1905 to communicate with Ernest's family.
(I don't think it is a photo of one of the Neashams)
Regards
Roger
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Hi Roger....Thanks for your interesting comments and a Railway worker is something that I had considered too, but thought his jacket would have had a badge or collar tags but not sure.
The link to the Gates Family does seem like an idea to follow up. I cannot however find her as Edith Beck in 1939 nor can I find a death for her before that date ::) I did a high res. scan of the hatband but it gives no clues.
Carol
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Edith Beck is a widow in Herefordshire in 1939.From memory her parents Richard and Sarah were
in that county in 1911.
Roger
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There is a 1968 Hereford death record and equivalent probate record wich would match also.
Roger
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That's great Roger....thanks so much for your input, it's very much appreciated :-*...I only looked on Ancestry for the 1939 register but have FindMyPast on the ipad but OH was hogging it ::) ;D ;D
I will check it out.
Carol
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Do you think this railway pocket watch fob looks a similar shape to the one the gentleman in the photo is wearing?
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-solid-silver-fusee-railway-894616205
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Yes,it looks similar,but I can't get enough detail to be certain.
Roger
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Do you think this railway pocket watch fob looks a similar shape to the one the gentleman in the photo is wearing?
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-solid-silver-fusee-railway-894616205
Yes the fob looks very much like the one in the photo Jool, I scanned it at a high resolution earlier but have been too tied up to post it. The the other one is darker and less clear. I also scanned the hatband but it didn't offer any clues. I will post tomorrow for comparison.
Thanks for that Jool :D
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Another clue from Edith Beck's probate, Gertrude Metcalfe at an address in Richmond, Yorks. Richmond was mentioned on the postcard.
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Good find Jool....I think the net might be closing in ;D There is an Edith Beck mentioned as a share holder with the Great Western Railyway on FindMyPast but one entry lists her as Miss so maybe just a coincidence ::) I haven't found any children for a Wooff/Beck union.
Carol
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The only remaining alternative I can think of is that the portrait is of a suitor of Edith at the time,who doesn't reference Ernest because he is no longer at home.
Roger
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Thanks for that Roger....I have a feeling that the photo might be of a relative of her Aunt but it's all guess work ::)
Carol
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The high res scan does look a similar shape to the railway fob. It's a shame we can't pick out more detail from it. I'm not familiar with watch chain fobs, I wonder if a railway worker's fob would be a unique shape, or would this same shape be used elsewhere.
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Hello.
Has any one queried the way the gentleman has presented for his photograph?
To me the right arm sleeve looks very limp.
Alan.
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EDIT.to:-..I am intrigued as to who the letter writer is. I thought there were initials after the word sincerely, but now I think it is two kisses. Thanks for taking the time to search for them :D
Carol
My eyes see an almost identical "F" to that in "Forcett: for the first mark.
Alan.
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Hello.
Has any one queried the way the gentleman has presented for his photograph?
To me the right arm sleeve looks very limp.
Alan.
I think it is resting on a chair arm Alan. I did notice what looks like a shield shaped ring on his left hand little finger. I thought it might be kisses rather than initials but not sure.
Carol
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Interesting postcard - The chap looks so smart and has a slightly haughty air about him. Love it.
Although similar, I’m afraid I don’t think his fob is the same as the railway fob in the link provided. The shape looks different, though I suppose it could relate to a different railway or time frame.
:)
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I think I have found the connection between Edith Beck(nee Wooff) and the Mrs Gertrude Metcalfe listed in the probate record.The pathway was as follows:-
Death record for a Gertrude Metcalfe 1913-1983 Richmond
Only Gertrude born 1913 in Richmond is Gertrude Dodsworth(Dec Qtr) mmn Wooff
(Marriage of Gertrude Dodsworth to James Metcalfe Dec Qtr 1935 Richmond)
Marriage of Sarah Jane Wooff to James Dodsworth Dec Qtr 1898 Richmond
Birth of Sarah Jane Wooff Dec Qtr 1879 Teesdale
Census 1881 Sarah J daughter of John and Esther Wooff RG11/4931/39/12
Census 1871 Richard Wooff(father of Edith),son of John and Esther,RG10/4878/18/2
I think this makes Edith and Gertrude cousins(?)
Roger
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It may be worth noting that in 1911 Esther Wooff together with James and (Sarah) Jane Dodsworth are in Eppleby,which looks to be less than a mile from Forcett.
Roger
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If I am looking at the correct place,could the "signature" be a single "H"?
Roger
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Snippet rotated.
Alan.
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Going to post F x, then realised the snippet had F X in its title, Mark
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Is it F D?
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Thanks for all your input Roger and interesting observations, and others for helping to solve this mystery....I originally thought it was two kisses then thought it looked like Fx?
Carol
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An improbable lateral thought,but here goes....
What if the writer is not the person in the photo?What if it is a woman(Handwriting style?Puzzle format?).
Unlikely(?),but what about Ediith's Aunt(?) Jane Dodsworth(nee Sarah Jane Wooff,married 1898)?
The picture could be her husband,perhaps.He would have been approx 27 at the time of writing(anybody guess the age of the subject?).There might be a way of making sensse of Father/Mother references.....Initials maybe JD as suggested.......
Rpger
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I have considered some of the ideas you raise here, but unless we can confirm what his occupation was from the uniform it could be a friend, uncle, boyfriend, cousin.
This from Arthur's transcription:
But I hope you will make this one out alright. I hope you had a nice time at Richmond on Monday. I was sorry I did not see you or I would have told you about this one.
Gives the impression that he lives in Richmond....he clearly communicates with Edith regularly and knows the Family and the lodger Joseph Stephenson.
Thanks again Roger for all you input :)
Carol
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This from Arthur's transcription:
But I hope you will make this one out alright. I hope you had a nice time at Richmond on Monday. I was sorry I did not see you or I would have told you about this one.
I'm flattered that you thought of me, but it was actually Bookbox (Reply #7).
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Aw Arthur...I'm so used to you coming up with the answers ::)
Sorry...Bookbox :-[
Carol
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I have only just caught up with the challenge, but one or two things in your gentleman’s photo seem odd to me. He seems extremely well dressed. Are you sure he is in uniform?. He is wearing a floral bow tie and his waistcoat is made in a spotted material and the buttons seem decorative too. His hat is a mystery though, they were worn a bit around the beginning of the century but were usually associated with people with marine connections. I can’t make out any details on the darker watch fob but could the other one be a coat of arms similar to the one in my photo. I know it is not this one. He appears to be wearing a finger stall on the first finger on his left hand but I can’t imagine that is significant in any way.
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If you look at Edwardian railway porter's uniform Pat, they are quite smart and some are wearing bow ties. I think what you are seeing on his left index finger is his thumb.
Thanks for your input. Not sure about the fob as there are many similar ones and may not have a connection to his occupation.
The idea of him being a chauffeur at Forcett Hall was an idea that crossed my mind, as the postcard address gives only "Forcett" in the first line of the address. The connection to Forcett Hall was suggested by Jool.
Carol
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So many things seem right about family of Edith born to Richard and Sarah,except Ernest dying in 1903.However,he was with the Neashams in 1901(William and Jane nee Gates,sister to Sarah),and was employed on the railways(is that a railwayman's hat in the portrait.Is the person portrayed 19 or less?).Perhaps he had a number of portrait postcards done and one of the Neashams used it in 1905 to communicate with Ernest's family.
(I don't think it is a photo of one of the Neashams)
Regards
Roger
I too think the photo is that of someone working for the railway and may well be of Edith Wooff's brother Ernest who died 1903.
I don't necessarily think the postcard was sent by a male though.
I offer another contender for the sender - a female.
A Margaret Anne Gates was born in Forcett 1878 (birth reg'd Sept.1878 Richmond) who appears to have been raised by her maternal grandparents James and Sarah Gates - I believe Edith's mothers Sarah Gates was the daughter of James and Sarah and that Margaret Anne Gates was the illeg. dau. of Sarah's younger sister Eliza (confirmed by public tree on Ancestry).
Eliza subsequently married a John Garvey and, as already stated, daughter Margaret Anne was with her maternal grandparents in 1881 and 1891 but with her mothers family in 1901. Margaret married a John Allen in 1907 and they appear to have had a daughter in 1905 (birth as Gates) who is later listed as Allen. This daughter was named Edith May (coincidence or not?) and the family lived in Richmond in 1911.
So, was Margaret Ann Gates the sender of the postcard? She, too, would be a cousin to Edith Wooff (their mothers being sisters) and the Gates family link to both Forcett and Richmond.
Annette
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There is a further "Gates" connection.Ernest Wooff is staying with the Neashams in 1901.William Neasham married Jane Gates,another daughter of James and Sarah Gates,and another sister to Sarah and Eliza.Further,the Neashams are resident in Thornaby on Tees,only 3 miles from Stockton on Tees(the postmark).
Roger
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In the 1901 census there appears to be some fainter script above Ernest's occupation.It may not be relevant but can anyone make it out?
Looking back over comments,I'd missed the reference to a limp right arm in the photo.It almost looks as if he is an amputee.
It would be too much to expect these two observations to be linked!
Roger
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I thought his arm was missing at first but I think he's leaning against a cushion and his hand is on the arm of the chair.
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That's a great bit of sleuthing Jool..... I will delve a bit more tomorrow to see if there is a Hull connection where the photo ended up. I appreciate you spending time to help me to find the family. Your input is much appreciated as always
:-*
Added: Edith must have married after 1905 as the sender addressed Edith as Miss Edith Wooff :-\
Carol
Hi
Realise it says Miss.
My Sister has been married 40 years, but I have still called her ______ Hood, during that time.
It strikes me, that whilst the writer might be intelligent and knows what he/she wants to say, the writer might have some spectrum disorder or other neurological condition.
Bits that the mind thinks and we want to write, we miss out as the hand writes or types and so ends up being added and altered later over some hours, or if mentally exhausted the following day.
So perhaps a possibility it should have been written Mrs?
Mark
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I thought his arm was missing at first but I think he's leaning against a cushion and his hand is on the arm of the chair.
Yes that was my answer when it was mentioned earlier in the post about his right arm so we are on the same page. Thanks :D
Carol
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Thanks for your input Mark but I think that is a stretch :-\
Carol