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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: JeremyS on Tuesday 09 March 21 16:42 GMT (UK)
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Hi,
I'm fairly new to genealogy but have really enjoyed it so far & have traced almost all branches of my family back to the 18th Century which has been so interesting. However on one branch I am totally stuck in the 20th Century on & I have searched and searched but to no avail.
I am looking for a Harry Moss, for whom I have his marriage certificate, a couple of later census returns & not much else. Here is all I know:
He married Rose Phillips "in the register office by certificate before me" (according to the Rites & Ceremonies of the Church of England is crossed out) in the District of London City on 12th June 1913. Harry is listed as a Barman, aged 24, & both he & Rose have the address of 12 Providence Place, Aldgate E.C. Harry's father is "Moses Moss, clothier (deceased). The witnesses both have the surname Isaacs.
I then have 1926 & 1939 addresses for him, in Auckland Road, Bow (now Zealand Road) and in 1939 in Dagenham, Essex. I know a little about his later life but no one knows anything about his early life.
His wife Rose Phillips' family were all Jewish & lived in Aldgate/Spitalfields/Whitechapel etc from the 1700s, probably German/Dutch/Polish Jews. The family memories of Harry are all mixed up...some have said that he spoke English as a second language, others not. It is of common agreement that he was Jewish. He also worked as a Motor Driver & apparently sold ice creams & bread from a travelling cart by a London Park. I have also searched for his father Moses Moss & can find nothing concrete on him, it's a very common name. And I am aware that Moss could well have been a name changed or given at a port of entry.
I have tried searching on Jewish Gen but haven't got far. Any help would be extremely welcome & appreciated. Thanks.
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The 1939 register gives you the likely DoB for Harry and Rose, 6 Mar 1889 and 29 Mar 1889 respectively. I'm pretty sure that is indeed them in Dagenham because the GRO record of their daughter, Vera, has a MMN of Phillips (birth registered in Q2 1927).
There is a good match for Harry's Christening on Family Search - 5th May 1889 in Colne Engaine, Essex. Father Moses Moss, mother Charlotte Moss. Ancestry might have the scan of this record and if so that might contain more information.
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There is a good match for Harry's Christening on Family Search - 5th May 1889 in Colne Engaine, Essex. Father Moses Moss, mother Charlotte Moss. Ancestry might have the scan of this record and if so that might contain more information.
The image isn't available on Ancestry; however, the index entry contains a link to the image at this website: https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk . You can pay to view just one image or you can purchase a subscription.
Ancestry also has an index entry showing the marriage of a Moses Moss and Charlotte Hume in Essex on Oct. 21, 1875 (with a link to the Essex Archives Online website).
Neither index entry lists an occupation for Moses Moss but one or both of the images would.
Regards,
Josephine
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There is a good match for Harry's Christening on Family Search - 5th May 1889 in Colne Engaine, Essex. Father Moses Moss, mother Charlotte Moss. Ancestry might have the scan of this record and if so that might contain more information.
Neither Ancestry nor FindMyPast has an image of this baptism; however it was performed in a CofE church. If Harry was Jewish then I guess that this couldn't be him. If it is him, I guess he wasn't Jewish!
ETA: Moses and Charlotte Moss with their children including Harry are in the censuses in Halstead, Essex, and Moses was consistently a moulder in an iron works. So I suspect this is not the right family.
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Thanks a lot for looking into this for me & I appreciate your time. However I had seen this Harry Moss with a Moses Moss as a father but I had dismissed it for 3 reasons. This is not to say that it is not him, but just why I had serious doubts it was him;
1) Harry Moss of Earl's Colne was Baptised. Whilst there is of course a chance that my great-grandad wasn't in fact Jewish as my living family believes, the fact that I know for a fact that his wife was Jewish would make that less possible. I believe in 1913 it would have been quite unusual for a gentile to marry a Jew, especially to move into what was at the time the Jewish slums in order to do so.
2) Moses Moss, father of Harry, is listed on Harry's wedding certificate as a Clothier (a very common Jewish profession), whereas the Moses Moss of Earl's Colne is some kind of (Metal?) Melder.
3) There is a Harry H Moss, born 18/10/1890, who in the 1939 census is living in Colne Engaine, 2km from Earl's Colne, who I think is much more likely to be the Harry Moss you have mentioned. I know that my great-grandfather was in the 1939 census living in Dagenham.
If you are able to keep helping I would be very appreciative. Thanks
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Annie65115 I have just seen you were writing a similar thought at the same time as me :)
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there is a moses moss on the 1881 census son of Zachariah and Leah Moss and both father and son are Clothiers
Reg Kensington folio 64 piece 18
it is a large family so maybe you could find more
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1911 - there's a Moss family in Wandsworth, headed by Elizabeth, who's a widow. She said she was married 35 years previously. Children born in London and then Brighton before obviously the family moved back to London. One of the children is Harry,age 22, b London.
Tracing the family back I found them in Brighton in 1901; father Harry Moss,age 52, a clothier. Children include Henry, age 13. Some of the children's names would suggest to me quite a high chance of the family being either Jewish or non-con.
The MMN for the children seems to have been Joseph so looking for possible marriages, I found this one:
Marriages Jun 1876 (>99%)
Joseph Elizabeth London C. 1c 157
MOSES Henry London C. 1c 157
Wacks Amelia London C. 1c 157
Woolf Joseph London C. 1c 157
I've go no further than that as yet but I think this bears further investigation.
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The 1891 census for this family gives more detail:
Henry Moss age 30, wardobe dealer (old clothes), b Bishopsgate,London
Elizabeth Moss age 28 b Aldgate
Rachel age 4b Mile End
Ellen age 3 b Paddington
Zachariah age 1 b Paddington
Maria (?) age 3 months
and there must have been money in old clothes as the household also included a domestic nurse and a general servant.
I wonder if "Moss" was the anglicisation of "Moses" and hence the confusion on the the future marriage certificate.
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This seems to be the birth registration of the Henry/Harry in the family I've found:
MOSS, HENRY JOSEPH
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in FULHAM Volume 01A Page 204
(It's the year before the yob given on the 1939 register but IME people regularly shaved a year or two off their age then!)
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Wow this is fantastic research, thanks Annie. I have 2 questions;
1) Would I be right in saying that it would be unusual in 1913 for a son of a family who could afford domestic help, to end up living in a slum marrying a woman from a very poor background?
2) If this is indeed the correct Harry Moss, & he got his Dad's name wrong on the marriage certificate, is there any way I could ever be certain of it? With my limited experience it seems that this link of father's name on a marriage certificate is the best way of finding a continuum to the previous generation..?
I have tried to attached Harry & Rose's marriage certificate but I can't get the file size small enough. One fact I forgot to mention was that it says Moses Moss (deceased) so I know he died pre-1913.
Would I be right in saying that this certificate would just be them officiating what had already taken place in a Synagogue, hence why they are already listed as living together & that it says "by certificate before me"? I have searched for Synagogue records on ancestry & JewishGen but not had any luck.
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Would I be right in saying that this certificate would just be them officiating what had already taken place in a Synagogue, hence why they are already listed as living together & that it says "by certificate before me"? I have searched for Synagogue records on ancestry & JewishGen but not had any luck.
In my experience, if the marriage took place in a synagogue, that would be noted on the certificate you would get from the GRO (it would include the name of the synagogue and the officiating rabbi), but I'm not an expert in this area.
Regards,
Josephine
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2) If this is indeed the correct Harry Moss, & he got his Dad's name wrong on the marriage certificate, is there any way I could ever be certain of it? With my limited experience it seems that this link of father's name on a marriage certificate is the best way of finding a continuum to the previous generation..?
I have tried to attached Harry & Rose's marriage certificate but I can't get the file size small enough. One fact I forgot to mention was that it says Moses Moss (deceased) so I know he died pre-1913.
Do you have Harry Moss's death record or date and location of death? Do you know where Harry was buried? If he has a traditional tombstone in a Jewish cemetery, the inscription should include his father's name.
Regards,
Josephine
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I have, but just as an index, before this I hadn't thought there much point but now you say this, yes I will order it from the GRO asap.
Here is the index entry details;
Harry H Moss d aged 66 Dec qtr 1954 Romford RD
Volume 5a Page378
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The death certificate won't say where he's buried.
Did he attend synagogue in Romford? If so, it might be worth getting in touch to see if they have any family or burial records.
Re possible changes in family fortune - yep, fortunes can certainly change, who knows what might have happened? Rags to riches and back to rags in 3 generations was not unheard of. And this was the era before any sort of state-provided safety net if things went wrong.
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I found an obit for Henry Moss, the well known clothier of Brighton; he died in 1901 and was buried in the Jewish cemetery. There was quite a lot of interesting info included but I can't replicate it on my phone, sorry.
It mentioned that his oldest son had recently left for service in South Africa - presumably the Boer war. Was there any mention in your family of someone who fought in that conflict? Do you know the names of any of Harry's siblings?
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I will indeed check the Dagenham & Romford synagogues, that is a good idea, thanks.
I'm now even questioning whether that is the correct death index!
To make matters worse I hoped there would be extended family I didn't know who might have clues. I know Harry & Rose had an eldest son called Morris b. circa 1913 (or poss Maurice) but he seems to have vanished off the face of the earth. A daughter Vera b.1927 I have found in records, marrying a Patrick Cullinan, but appears not to have had kids. Their other daughter Julia/Julie b. 1919 died young. Which just leaves my grandmother Rachel, b. 1916.
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The death certificate won't say where he's buried.
Correct. In my experience, if you're asking for a look-up from a cemetery or place of worship (or anyone, really), they'll want the date of death, to make it easier to do their search.
Regards,
Josephine
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I can’t see a Maurice/Morris birth listed; there was a Harry Moss mmn Phillips b Mile End in 1913. Perhaps this is him, but he perhaps he used a different first name as it can be confusing to have two people with the same name in the same household!
There was also an Esther b 1922 in MIle End who may well have been of this family; have you checked her out?
Probate is listed for Henry Moss who died in Brighton in 1901. You could request his will but I expect it will only confirm the family that can be seen on the censuses, without confirming that they are indeed your family.
I presume that Rachel b 1916 is no longer with us. How many children did she have? Can you quiz any of them some more about family stories? I’ve found that it’s best, with older folk, to say, “I found Xxx, does that sound familiar, could it have been Great Uncle X?”. Memories can be jogged, and people don’t realise that even a tiny seemingly unimportant fact can actually be the sledgehammer that demolishes a brick wall.
(I’ve just helped a friend solve a problem with her Jewish early 20th century background - one word in the story changed the entire focus of the search!)
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I'm now even questioning whether that is the correct death index!
I think you have the wrong death for your Harry Moss. This is from the probate calendar:
MOSS Harry of 8 Rose Glen Romford Essex died 13 November 1955 at 149 Grafton-road London N.W.5 Administration London 4 July [1956] to Vera Cullinan (wife of Patrick Cullinan). Effects £689 5s. 10d.
(Note that it is a grant of administration, so there was no will.)
This appears to be the death registration ...
MOSS, HARRY 66
GRO Reference: 1955 D Quarter in ST. PANCRAS Volume 05D Page 436
ADDED
Buried at East Ham Jewish Cemetery ...
https://www.theus.org.uk/category/find-grave
East Ham HARRY MOSS 16/11/1955 Section I Row 23 Plot 1530
ADDED 2
The electoral roll shows Patrick and Vera living at 149 Grafton Road in the mid 1950s.
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A daughter Vera b.1927 I have found in records, marrying a Patrick Cullinan, but appears not to have had kids.
A memorial notice published in the Jewish Chronicle on the anniversary of Vera’s death in 1999 (died 16 July 1996) list the names of her 7 children. At least some of their births can be found on FreeBMD, between 1948 and 1965.
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Going back to the beiginning of the thread, what were the first names of the Witnesses on the marriage certificate?
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Buried at East Ham Jewish Cemetery ...
https://www.theus.org.uk/category/find-grave
East Ham HARRY MOSS 16/11/1955 Section I Row 23 Plot 1530
Great find!
This would be the cemetery to contact and ask if Harry's father's name is on the stone and/or in their records.
Regards,
Josephine
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This is absolutely incredible!! Bookbox, Annie & Josephine you are absolute wonders!
I probably saw that death index in St Pancras and immediately thought that can't be him cos he was living in Romford. But yes you must be correct, I had done work on Vera trying to trace her family so indeed agree that she was living in Grafton Road. Apparently she & her husband Patrick had a pub in Kentish Town around that time. She then had another by Elephant & Castle later on hence why she is living that way in the later docs. I have only found Electoral Registers for her & Patrick, which (naturally) contain no children, so made the wrong assumption that she had none. An older family member had mentioned she did have some. To track them down now would be amazing. A Rosie, & a Harry perhaps..? If anyone can find Census Records for Vera & Patrick that would be great. I know they were living at 346 Hillingdon Street, Vauxhall SE5 by 1962. I have no info on Patrick other than he was Irish (born or heritage I don't know) and had had an accident on the docks.
How am I able to see this Jewish Chronicle entry on Vera Moss/Cullinan please? Also any guidance on finding the pub License Vitulars (spelling?) would be fantastic. It makes absolute sense Harry would be living with Vera, as she was by far the youngest and was living with him at least until 1939. She & my grandmother fell out at some point.
As for Harry's death & burial, that is amazing information. I live in NE London so I'm tempted to go down to East Ham cemetery myself, also to pay some respects. Beyond what is written on the gravestone, would they hold any info in their records...?
To answer your question Annie, the witnesses on Harry & Rose's marriage cert are hard to read but I believe "R. Isaacs" and "Lewis Isaacs".
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As for Harry's death & burial, that is amazing information. I live in NE London so I'm tempted to go down to East Ham cemetery myself, also to pay some respects. Beyond what is written on the gravestone, would they hold any info in their records...?
It's probably best to contact them before you visit, because they can tell you if they still hold the relevant burial register and, if not, where it is currently held, and also what info it might contain. Plus, the grave itself might not be easy to find, so you'd want directions.
Another potential source of information is funeral home records. And, as suggested earlier by another poster, synagogue records.
Regards,
Josephine
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How am I able to see this Jewish Chronicle entry on Vera Moss/Cullinan please?
I've sent you a PM.
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Vera d 1996 and Patrick 1976 they were both buried in a camberwell cemetery southwark
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Another potential source of information is funeral home records.
Not usual for Jewish burials. Burial is conventionally within 24 hours of death.
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Another potential source of information is funeral home records.
Not usual for Jewish burials. Burial is conventionally within 24 hours of death.
They use funeral homes here in Canada. There are also Jewish burial societies.
Edited to add: I'm not Jewish but I've been to a number of Jewish funerals and all but one were held in the chapel of a Jewish funeral home (the other one was just a graveside service, done through a Jewish burial society).
Regards,
Josephine
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I looked in my books that I have for Jewish bmd but they are mostly earlier nothing jumped out
I tried electrol rolls for vera and only herself and Patrick were on from 1956 to 1963
Rachel married a arthur stubbings and the n when he died in 1983 she married a Stanley Owen but haven't searched her yet
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I looked in my books that I have for Jewish bmd but they are mostly earlier nothing jumped out
I tried electrol rolls for vera and only herself and Patrick were on from 1956 to 1963
Rachel married a arthur stubbings and the n when he died in 1983 she married a Stanley Owen but haven't searched her yet
Thanks, yes I know most of these later details about Rachel, she was my grandmother but I barely knew her sadly.
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Vera d 1996 and Patrick 1976 they were both buried in a camberwell cemetery southwark
Thanks a lot, that's very interesting. Can't find anything on their children except for one born Oct 1953 in Romford, but then not much on him after that either.
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As for Harry's death & burial, that is amazing information. I live in NE London so I'm tempted to go down to East Ham cemetery myself, also to pay some respects. Beyond what is written on the gravestone, would they hold any info in their records...?
It's probably best to contact them before you visit, because they can tell you if they still hold the relevant burial register and, if not, where it is currently held, and also what info it might contain. Plus, the grave itself might not be easy to find, so you'd want directions.
Another potential source of information is funeral home records. And, as suggested earlier by another poster, synagogue records.
Regards,
Josephine
Good idea, I'll contact them. Thanks a lot. I'm also not sure where Rose Phillips his wife died. I had guessed at this 1956 Q3 5d p218 Poplar death, but really don't know. From family they believe she died around the 1950s. Though if Harry died whilst (living?) at his daughter's house aged 66, perhaps Rose had already passed away by 1955.
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Vera d 1996 and Patrick 1976 they were both buried in a camberwell cemetery southwark
Looking at birth registrations, it looks as though the family moved south of the river in the late 1950s or early 1960s.
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Good idea, I'll contact them. Thanks a lot. I'm also not sure where Rose Phillips his wife died. I had guessed at this 1956 Q3 5d p218 Poplar death, but really don't know. From family they believe she died around the 1950s. Though if Harry died whilst (living?) at his daughter's house aged 66, perhaps Rose had already passed away by 1955.
You're welcome, JeremyS. If you're lucky, Harry and Rose were buried in the same plot.
Have you searched for obits for them in the online newspapers?
Regards,
Josephine
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jsorry removed "
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As the above people are probably living, I think their names should be removed. That's why I sent the memorial notices from the Jewish Chronicle by PM.
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sorry didnt think will remove
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Just a little update as a thanks for your hard work - I have managed to find a cousin once removed who is a granddaughter of Vera Moss! And her Dad, Vera's son, apparently has some info. I am very happy & should get some more ancestral info too. I'll update you all again if I get more if you like.
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Good news that you've made contact. Yes, do keep us updated if you'd like to.
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Oh yes please - I’d love to know if my hunch re Moss/Moses was correct!
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Yes, please, update us when you can!
Regards,
Josephine
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yes love to know I tried the United Synagogue for Rose Phillips marriage nothing matched exactly but there are a lot of Rose Phillips!!
https://www.theus.org.uk/category/find-marriage-record
index is free but I think they charge for record
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So to update you kind people, I finally spoke to Vera's son, (Harry & Rose's grandson), yesterday. Nothing concrete but a few clues & one possibly very exciting thing I found as a result.
1) there is a story of someone being born, possibly Harry, on a ship - that the family tried to emigrate to the USA but weren't allowed in, & upon return there was a birth onboard. However my hunch is that he is getting the family sides mixed up, because Rose's eldest sister Julia's birth (b.1875) is registered in Liverpool, where their parents (Morris Phillips & Rachel Nelson) also got married in a synagogue in 1875, & around the same time Morris' brothers had emigrated to the USA, (tho I have no travel docs for them). This Phillips family had always lived in London apart from this.
2) Apparently Harry had a very wealthy uncle called Colonel Isaac Moss Vernon (spellings & accuracy of this is not to be taken too precisely! I haven't managed to find anything on google), who made his money gambling, travelled to Monte Carlo, had a collection of racehorses & a lot of property around Shaftesbury Avenue. This uncle was apparently involved in a scandalous affair that was covered in the newspapers at the time, whereby a barmaid in a pub he owned apparently fell pregnant to him & took him to court. Vera's son believes he had cuttings of this story from the Telegraph but can't find them. Apparently Harry informed this uncle's wife of the affair, which is why Harry was cut off from any inheritance from him.
3) Most interestingly, Vera's son is convinced there is a connection between the Moss Bros shop and our Harry Moss. I then googled around a bit & found this amazing genealogy thread from 2007, which gets very interesting on page 2 when they are discussing our Harry & Rose Phillips! I can't quite understand all the references, nor am I sure if they feel that indeed Harry Moss was an extended part of the same family. I know that the Harry Moss they find b. Kensington who took over the business wasn't him. But I was wondering if you experts agree with these researchers, that the Harry I am after is the same working on Shaftersbury Av in 1911 census, born in Paddington etc... I'm also going to try & contact this Squiddley1957 who was posting.
https://www.familytreeforum.com/forum/research-advice/family-history-research/67721-moss-bros-family
Any help much appreciated.
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Portsmouth Evening News
Fri., March 19, 1926
“BARMAID’S CLAIM.
Estate of Racehorse Owner.
ALLEGED LOANS.
“LONDON, Friday.
“In the King’s Bench to-day, Miss Maggie Sayer, also known as Mrs. Maggie May Montague, brought an action against Capt. Stuart Reginald Moss Vernon, and Mr. Lewis Edwards, executors of the will of the late Mr. Isaac Moss, also known as Isaac Moss Vernon, owner of racehorses, [sic] Plaintiff claimed £9,717 on the ground that it was money testator had from her. The defence was a denial of liability. The Statue of Limitations was also pleaded.
“Mr. Fortune, for plaintiff, said testator owned the ‘Avenue’ Hotel, Shaftesbury, [sic] Avenue, where Miss Sayer was employed as a barmaid. In 1913 she went to live with him and remained until his death in 1925. A child was born to them. At that time testator was known as Mr. Montague.
“At times he had command of large sums, but at others was short and borrowed from Miss Sayer. She had got money partly from testator as gifts and partly from winnings on the turf. She had not kept many cheques and documents relating to loans, because she destroyed them at testator’s request. He had an idea he might be blackmailed. He died suddenly on Jan. 10 last year, and left his property apparently to another lady. The gross value of the estate was £104,000.”
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Birmingham Daily Gazette
Sat., March 20, 1926
“BARMAID AT 12s. A WEEK.
How She Became Rich.
AWARD OF £6,815 AGAINST ESTATE.
“A remarkable story was related in the King’s Bench Division yesterday during the hearing of a claim by a former barmaid against the executors of a well-known racing man, known as Isaac Moss Vernon, for the return of £9,717 said to have been lent to him. The Court found for the barmaid, and entered judgment for £6,815 and costs.
“The claim, which was heard by Mr. Justice Roche, was made by Miss Maggie Sayer, commonly known as Mrs. Maggie May Montague, against Captain Stuart Reginald Moss Vernon and Lewis Edwards, executors of the will of the late Mr. Isaac Moss, commonly known as Isaac Moss Vernon.
“Defendants denied that Mr. Moss Vernon had any money entrusted to him for the use of plaintiff and also pleaded the Statute of Limitations.
“RACEHORSE OWNER.
“Mr. Fortune, for the plaintiff, said Mr. Isaac Moss Vernon was a well-known owner of racehorses.
“He had also many business activities and among other things owned the Avenue Hotel, Shaftesbury – avenue, where Miss Sayer was at one time engaged as a barmaid.
“At the request of Mr. Moss Vernon she, in 1913, went to live with him.
“On 2 May, 1916, a son was born and he was fully acknowledged by Mr. Moss Vernon.
“Mr. Moss Vernon eventually died, leaving an estate of £100,000.
“He dabbled a great deal in purchasing property, and when he required money for that purpose he often went to Miss Sayer for it.
“In September, 1919, two sums of £300 and £4,400 were obtained.
“She had got the money partly from testator as gifts, and partly from winnings on the turf.
“SIGN OF GOOD FAITH.
“Miss Sayer, giving evidence, said she always believed Mr. Moss Vernon when he said he would pay her, because he put his hands to his head, being a Jew, and said he never broke his word.
“Cross-examined by Mr. Norman Birkett, K.C., Miss Sayer said she learned after Mr. Moss Vernon’s death that there was a Mrs. Clayton, and that Mr. Moss Vernon had lived with her; but she knew nothing of that while Mr. Moss Vernon was alive.
“ ‘Did he provide for Mrs. Clayton, in his will, to the extent of £800 a year?’ —
“ ‘I did not hear it like that, but I heard she was provided for.’
“Miss Sayer said when she first went to the Avenue Hotel, in 1910, as a barmaid she was paid 12s. a week.
“OWNER OF A TAXI.
“She made some money by owning a taxi. The property in Shaftesbury-avenue was left to Mrs. Clayton.
“In answer to the Judge, Mr. Norman Birkett said it was in 1918 Mrs. Clayton went to live with Mr. Moss Vernon, and the annuity she had been left was one of £800 a year for ten years.
“He was told, though it was rather hazardous to say so, that Mrs. Clayton looked about 40 years old.
“Mr. Justice Roche found that some of the sums claimed were barred by the Statute of Limitations, which the executors had properly pleaded. As to the other items, he found they were loans by Miss Sayer, who let Mr. Moss Vernon have the money from time to time as he required it. He found for Miss Sayer from 29 July, 1919.”
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JeremyS,
Have you been in touch with the cemetery? It would be good if you could confirm the name of Harry's father. The info might also include Harry's Hebrew and/or Yiddish names, which might help with searching.
It's interesting to see that Harry's uncle went by various names at different times: Isaac Moss, Isaac Moss Vernon, Mr. Montague.
Regards,
Josephine
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This is incredible! Thank you so much Josephine.
And when matched with this document I think it's truly amazing. 1911 census, here is (prob), the Avenue Hotel on Shaftesbury Avenue, Harry Moss, aged 22 working as a manager...and who else is on the doc, but Margaret May Sayer from the articles you posted!!!! A barmaid, 25 & single in 1911. Wow.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_00500_0455_03?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=vcr57&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1490145
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I have been in touch with the cemetery - sadly they said they don't have any docs pertaining to his burial :(
With these uncle names I should be able to find Harry's family perhaps..? And if this 1911 census is correct then I have his birth as Paddington, which confirms the research I posted on that thread. The big question is whether the Harry Moss married in 1913, 24, a barman, is the same as in this 1911 census. The fact of the family story about this court case around the Avenue Hotel on Shaftesbury Av certainly would support this...
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This is incredible! Thank you so much Josephine.
And when matched with this document I think it's truly amazing. 1911 census, here is (prob), the Avenue Hotel on Shaftesbury Avenue, Harry Moss, aged 22 working as a manager...and who else is on the doc, but Margaret May Sayer from the articles you posted!!!! A barmaid, 25 & single in 1911. Wow.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_00500_0455_03?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=vcr57&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1490145
Awesome! You're most welcome, JeremyS!
If you go to the page just prior to the one showing Harry Moss in 1911, you'll see the cover page, which says it was filled out by Mr. Tull (I think), for 21 Shaftesbury Avenue W.
Regards,
Josephine
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I have been in touch with the cemetery - sadly they said they don't have any docs pertaining to his burial :(
It's too bad they don't have any documents.
Just to clarify, though: is there a tombstone on his grave?
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Belfast Telegraph
Wed., Sept. 23, 1925
“£40 A WEEK FOR A SON.
HE MUST CALL FOR IT PERSONALLY.
“There is a curious proviso in the will proved of Mr. Isaac Moss (otherwise Isaac Moss Vernon), the racehorse owner, of 14 Wellington Street, St. John’s Wood, London.
“Mr. Moss, whose estate is of the gross value of £104,421 (net personality being £76,999), left during the lifetime of his wife £20 per week to his son Philip Zachariah, payable to him personally at the office of solicitors to the estate, it being left to the sole discretion of the trustees whether the sum be paid or forfeited if he fails to call weekly.
“To his son Stuart Moss Vernon, coachbuilder, of Bilke Street, Chelsea the testator left £1,500 and £1,000 per annum, and to the testator’s wife was left £2,000 per annum. The balance of the income during his wife’s life is to be applied to paying off any charges on his property.
“Subject thereto, he left a further £20 per week payable to his son Philip Zachariah on the same terms as above.
“There are reversionary bequests for Jewish charities and for the home for aged and needy or disabled jockeys and trainers at Newmarket.”
A report in the Nottingham Journal says that Isaac died on "10 January last" in Montreux, Switzerland (the rest of the report is the same as above).
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With these uncle names I should be able to find Harry's family perhaps..? And if this 1911 census is correct then I have his birth as Paddington, which confirms the research I posted on that thread. The big question is whether the Harry Moss married in 1913, 24, a barman, is the same as in this 1911 census. The fact of the family story about this court case around the Avenue Hotel on Shaftesbury Av certainly would support this...
The info should help (fingers crossed).
You should be able to purchase a copy of Isaac's will for £1.50 from here:
https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate
His will should give you his wife's name (let's hope it includes her maiden name).
If you can locate Isaac's marriage record, it should give you his father's name and occupation, which should be a big help.
It looks like Isaac died in Switzerland in January 1925, so presumably he was buried there, but he might also have been memorialized on a stone in a Jewish cemetery in England.
Regards,
Josephine
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The 1911 census shows Isaac Moss Vernon and family in Hampstead, London. Isaac is 44, a hotel proprietor, born in St. Botolph Bishopsgate, London, and married to Rebecca for 23 years.
Let's hope he's not a big red herring, LOL.
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Take a look at the 1881 census entry for Zachariah Moss, 67, clothier, born Whitechapel, living in Paddington, London.
Sons include Moses, 24, clothier, born Houndsditch, and Isaac, 17, shop man general, also born Houndsditch.
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I really hope some other Rootschatters will be able to help you with these potential leads.
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Not of any help-just putting these here:
Isaac and Rebec* (1911 and 1901)seem to have had 2 children.
From GRO Births:
MOSES, PHILIP ZACHARIAH VERNON mmn ISAACS
1888 S Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 69
MOSS, STUART REGINALD mmn PHILLIPS
1894 S Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 499
There is a marriage:
FreeBMD
Marriages Jun 1887:
Isaacs Rebecca Westminster 1a 957
MOSES Isaac Westminster 1a 957
Maureen
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Take a look at the 1881 census entry for Zachariah Moss, 67, clothier, born Whitechapel, living in Paddington, London.
Sons include Moses, 24, clothier, born Houndsditch, and Isaac, 17, shop man general, also born Houndsditch.
I did put this on page 1 but no one seemed to think it was a possible ;D
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Take a look at the 1881 census entry for Zachariah Moss, 67, clothier, born Whitechapel, living in Paddington, London.
Sons include Moses, 24, clothier, born Houndsditch, and Isaac, 17, shop man general, also born Houndsditch.
I did put this on page 1 but no one seemed to think it was a possible ;D
Whoops, sorry, sandiep!
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Not of any help-just putting these here:
Isaac and Rebec* (1911 and 1901)seem to have had 2 children.
From GRO Births:
MOSES, PHILIP ZACHARIAH VERNON mmn ISAACS
1888 S Quarter in PADDINGTON Volume 01A Page 69
MOSS, STUART REGINALD mmn PHILLIPS
1894 S Quarter in WESTMINSTER Volume 01A Page 499
There is a marriage:
FreeBMD
Marriages Jun 1887:
Isaacs Rebecca Westminster 1a 957
MOSES Isaac Westminster 1a 957
Maureen
I think this is helpful, because it shows the use of Moses as a surname for Isaac and one of his sons.
FreeBMD also has a marriage in Westminster of a Moses John Moses and a Jessie Abrahams in the March quarter of 1885. Could this be the missing Moses Moss? You'd have to purchase both marriage records and see if the father's name and occupation line up.
The GRO index has a birth for a Henry John Moses, mmn Abrahams, in Swansea in the March quarter of 1886. That doesn't match the birth date of 6 March 1889, which I think was mentioned in an earlier comment as his d.o.b. per the 1939 Register?
Even so, I think the two marriage records are worth following up on.
Regards,
Josephine
Edited to add: Now it looks like I'm going around in circles, because the 1891 census shows John Moses, iron trade agent, with wife Jessie and son Harry in Willesden, Middlesex, and I think someone already posted this family a while back. Darn!
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Take a look at the 1881 census entry for Zachariah Moss, 67, clothier, born Whitechapel, living in Paddington, London.
Sons include Moses, 24, clothier, born Houndsditch, and Isaac, 17, shop man general, also born Houndsditch.
I did put this on page 1 but no one seemed to think it was a possible ;D
I must apologise to you Sandiep! - I'm new to this & everyone I had found so far, who were all poor & living in the east end of London, no one had moved more than a mile from where they were born! I also had family (mis)information that Harry was a straight-off-the-boat immigrant so I just couldn't see past this & couldn't envisage him being anywhere other than the east end, especially as he was married there. It just shows you have to keep an open mind!
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This is incredible! Thank you so much Josephine.
And when matched with this document I think it's truly amazing. 1911 census, here is (prob), the Avenue Hotel on Shaftesbury Avenue, Harry Moss, aged 22 working as a manager...and who else is on the doc, but Margaret May Sayer from the articles you posted!!!! A barmaid, 25 & single in 1911. Wow.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/2352/images/rg14_00500_0455_03?treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=vcr57&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true&pId=1490145
Awesome! You're most welcome, JeremyS!
If you go to the page just prior to the one showing Harry Moss in 1911, you'll see the cover page, which says it was filled out by Mr. Tull (I think), for 21 Shaftesbury Avenue W.
Regards,
Josephine
The page after the entry shows for 25 Shaftesbury Av, & that it was filled out by H. Moss! At 22 being the manager, younger than almost everyone there & filling out their census, certainly suggests that the Uncle could have set him up with the job...
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So on the thread I posted from 2017 on Family Tree Forum, people there have posted references which are Piece / Folio / Page, and I'm trying to look them up but embarrassingly I don't know how to do it, despite entering the data what I thought was correctly on Ancestry. I thought I knew what I was doing but turns out I'm a real amateur :-[ haha.
Is anyone able to tell me how to find these, or even better post links from Ancestry to the correct document?
I think this is for Zachariah & his first wife Rachel Judah
- 1851 Piece 1533 Folio 357 Page number 40
- 1861 Piece 211 Folio 21 Page number 2
Then for Zachariah with his 2nd marriage (Elizabeth) Leah
1891: Piece number:15 Folio:119 Page:3
1901: Piece number:119 Folio:29 Page:6
1911: Registration district: Paddington
Registration District Number: 1
Sub-registration district: Paddington North
ED, institution, or vessel: 28
Piece: 28
Also they say Zachariah married Rachael Judah St Luke July 1848. - I was able to find this when searching under Rachel's name but not a marriage index ref under Zachariah's name.
Then they say Rachael dies 1874 and Zachariah remarries to Elizabeth Leah Connor Mar 1888 Paddington - I can't find docs to support either of these facts.
Just spent 2 hours trying. Not being lazy just a beginner, sorry!
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Is anyone able to tell me how to find these, or even better post links from Ancestry to the correct document?
It’s worth learning how to do this yourself.
For the census, go to the search page for the relevant year (not the whole Census Collection).
1851
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8860/
If you have a full census reference (as you have here), enter the Piece, Folio and Page as below. Don’t enter anything else – no names or places (in case they are mistranscribed).
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That's what I did but maybe that's where I went wrong - I also put in their names. I'll try again. Thanks
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dont worry about being a beginner and not knowing how to put things I have been researching about 20 years and still get lost and not too good at links
usually it takes me so long doing look ups that someone else always gets there first ::)
still so long as we all enjoy doing it and the help on here is first rate
so back we go on with the search
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Also they say Zachariah married Rachael Judah St Luke July 1848. - I was able to find this when searching under Rachel's name but not a marriage index ref under Zachariah's name.
Here’s the index entry for the marriage (I’ve deleted lines for other people on the same page)
Marriages Sep Qtr 1848
JUDA Rachael St Lukes 2 287
Juda Rachel St Lukes 2 287
JUDD Rachael St Lukes 2 287
Judd Rachel St Lukes 2 287
Moses Zachariah St Lukes 2 287
(lots of spelling variants for Rachael, but there will be only one actual marriage registration)
Here’s the transcript ...
https://synagoguescribes.com/blog/person-details/?value=6414
(click on Rachael’s name for her father’s details)
You will get more detail on the full civil registration certificate (from the GRO).
This marriage will have been under the auspices of the Great Synagogue (in the City) and recorded in their register, but with the ceremony probably held at a private venue in Finsbury/St Luke, where there was no proper synagogue at this date.
ADDED - Finsbury was an area where many aspiring middle-class Jewish families lived in the 1830s-40s, en route to moving further into the West End.
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The page after the entry shows for 25 Shaftesbury Av, & that it was filled out by H. Moss! At 22 being the manager, younger than almost everyone there & filling out their census, certainly suggests that the Uncle could have set him up with the job...
Ha, I didn't catch that! It looks like Mr. Moss to me.
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Then they say Rachael dies 1874 and Zachariah remarries to Elizabeth Leah Connor Mar 1888 Paddington - I can't find docs to support either of these facts.
There are possible index entries, but you won't find the records themselves online.
Deaths Jun 1874
MOSES Rachel 46 London C. 1c 6
Marriages Mar 1888
Connor Elizabeth Paddington 1a 86
Highlands Rebecca Paddington 1a 86
JENNINGS Alfred John Paddington 1a 86
MOSES Elizabeth Paddington 1a 86
MOSES Zachariah Paddington 1a 86
The above marriage was probably in a register office. Elizabeth may already have been known as Elizabeth Moses, as she is indexed under both surnames.
You'll need the civil certificate for more details, and to compare the name of Zachariah's father with that on the 1848 marriage record.
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I am finding all the info much easier now, thanks a lot.
A small detail but I noticed that in the 1871 census the page that would have contained Zachariah & Rachael's kids is missing, the files skip from page 1 to page 3.
I am going to get hold of these marriage certificates this week.
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Then they say Rachael dies 1874 and Zachariah remarries to Elizabeth Leah Connor Mar 1888 Paddington - I can't find docs to support either of these facts.
There are possible index entries, but you won't find the records themselves online.
Deaths Jun 1874
MOSES Rachel 46 London C. 1c 6
Marriages Mar 1888
Connor Elizabeth Paddington 1a 86
Highlands Rebecca Paddington 1a 86
JENNINGS Alfred John Paddington 1a 86
MOSES Elizabeth Paddington 1a 86
MOSES Zachariah Paddington 1a 86
The above marriage was probably in a register office. Elizabeth may already have been known as Elizabeth Moses, as she is indexed under both surnames.
You'll need the civil certificate for more details, and to compare the name of Zachariah's father with that on the 1848 marriage record.
Yes as ELizabeth & Zachariah had already had several children together that would make sense. And thanks for the incredible knowledge about Finsbury & St Luke's, fascinating!
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the record in Great Synagogue for 22 August 1848
Zacharia Moses (minor) father Benjamin Moses patronymic Zacharia b Binyamin address 112 Houndsditch.
Rachael Juda (minor) father Moses Juda patronymic Rahel b Moshe address 112 Houndsditch
unfortunately the book has only been transcribed to 1885 so next one isnt here
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the record in Great Synagogue for 22 August 1848
Zacharia Moses (minor) father Benjamin Moses patronymic Zacharia b Binyamin address 112 Houndsditch.
Rachael Juda (minor) father Moses Juda patronymic Rahel b Moshe address 112 Houndsditch
unfortunately the book has only been transcribed to 1885 so next one isnt here
Fantastic!
Could this be the family in 1841? They're in Christchurch, Spitalfields: Benjamin Moses, 35, general dealer, not born in county (everyone else was born in county); Hannah Moses, 30; Zacharia Moses, 13, general dealer; Lewis Moses, 10; Fanny Moses, 4; and Israel [I think] Moses, 2.
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So after much consultation with Squiddley1957 from the Family Tree Forum, who has done a lot of work, & consultations with newly found family members, we have settled on;
- Harry Moss was born Henry (!!) Morris Moss 6/3/1889 at Queen Charlotte's Hospital to Morris Moss & Ada Rosina Moss b. Tardbard. He was then baptised (!!) 14/3/1889 in St John's Wood. He is the same person who we saw in the 1911 working at the Avenue Hotel in Shaftesbury Av & who marries Rose Phillips in 1913.
- His Morris Moss was indeed born Moses Moss in St Botolph way, (yes son of Zachariah Moses, & the family then moved to Praed St Paddington), but Moses used the names Maurice & Morris in his life. He married a Fanny Moses (b.1862) in 1886, in a Jewish ceremony, but shortly after this both Fanny & their newborn son Benjamin died. This appears to have sent Moses/Morris/Maurice into the arms of Ada Rosina Tarbard, who he married in July 1888 in Hastings. She was almost certainly not Jewish, & neither was their ceremony, & she was prob pregnant with Harry at the time.
- Moses then goes to New York in April 1889 with Ada Rosina & Harry.
- Moses then dies in Whitechapel in 1904, & Ada Rosina goes on to have a new life with a Richard Vowles around Canning Town, & has other children with him.
The questions that remain;
- I can find no records of Morris/Moses, Ada Rosina & Harry in New York apart form their arrival, & nor can I find their return to London, which apparently was after a couple of years.
- Harry & family are not on the 1891 Census (prob in NY), but where is he in 1901?
But I thought I'd send that info to you all :)
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Thanks for keeping us updated. I’m sorry if I’ve missed some of your research stages in what is now a very long thread.
Have you managed to resolve satisfactorily this very important issue below that you yourself raised in reply #48?
The big question is whether the Harry Moss married in 1913, 24, a barman, is the same as in this 1911 census.
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Thanks for keeping us updated. I’m sorry if I’ve missed some of your research stages in what is now a very long thread.
Have you managed to resolve satisfactorily this very important issue below that you yourself raised in reply #48?
The big question is whether the Harry Moss married in 1913, 24, a barman, is the same as in this 1911 census.
That's ok I've struggled to keep up with it myself at times!
Of course there can't be definitive proof but the names, DOB, place of birth, the family story, & now Harry's (or Henry's!) birth certificate, father, occupations all match up. I am satisfied.
Squiddley has even located Moses & his father Zachariah's headstones in Edmonton Jewish cem which is very satisfying.
Just these 2 questions really remain on Harry Moss. And we still don't know who all his children were but this should be resolved by the 1921 Census release.
I now need to learn how to trace people going back to before the early 1800s, because without the Census results & the parental/job details on the wedding certificates it seems very hard!
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This is great!
JeremyS, I'm still confused about Harry's final resting place. I understand that the cemetery didn't have anything on file for him, but is there a stone on his grave?
Regards,
Josephine
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This is great!
JeremyS, I'm still confused about Harry's final resting place. I understand that the cemetery didn't have anything on file for him, but is there a stone on his grave?
Regards,
Josephine
No stone I'm afraid, a rather sad looking grave! And no other info held there, so a dead-end :(
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This is great!
JeremyS, I'm still confused about Harry's final resting place. I understand that the cemetery didn't have anything on file for him, but is there a stone on his grave?
Regards,
Josephine
No stone I'm afraid, a rather sad looking grave! And no other info held there, so a dead-end :(
Oh, that's too bad.
Regards,
Josephine
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- I can find no records of Morris/Moses, Ada Rosina & Harry in New York apart form their arrival, & nor can I find their return to London, which apparently was after a couple of years.
- Harry & family are not on the 1891 Census (prob in NY), but where is he in 1901?
What kind of clues can you give us from the documentation of their arrival in New York? Does it list Ada's age, for example? Does it say where they intended to stay (and/or who they intended to stay with) and what type of work Morris/Moses Moss was intending to do in the US? Do you know where Ada was born?
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I had look through Doreen Bergers books in which she has transcribed a lot of Jewish reports from the Jewish Chronical found this
Rachel Moses death at 10th July 1874 @ 25 Cutler Street Houndsditch beloved wife of Zachariah Moses and Mrs Barnet Daughter and Mrs Judah Daughter.
also in Great Synagogue births
Isaac Butler Street Houndsditch 14th Oct 1864
Joseph 7 Market Street Finsbury 24th July 1851
Benjamin 6 Devonshire Street Bishopsgate 31st March 1857
MOSES, MOSES JUDAH
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in EAST LONDON Volume 01C Page 13
all were children of Zachariah & Rachel Moses.
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The questions that remain;
- I can find no records of Morris/Moses, Ada Rosina & Harry in New York apart form their arrival, & nor can I find their return to London, which apparently was after a couple of years.
- Harry & family are not on the 1891 Census (prob in NY), but where is he in 1901?
They were back in London by 1897 when their son Joseph Moss was born in Poplar.
Birth
MOSS, JOSEPH TARBARD
GRO Reference: 1897 D Quarter in POPLAR Volume 01C Page 642
I think Ada was born illegitimately in 1868 in the Bristol area, as Ada Rosina Margaret Curnock.
Birth
CURNOCK, ADA ROSINA MARGARET - [no mother's surname stated]
GRO Reference: 1868 M Quarter in CLIFTON Volume 06A Page 120
Her mother Sarah Ann Curnock married Thomas Tarbard in Poplar in 1874. The family is found there in 1881.
Ada used her stepfather’s surname of Tarbard when she married Morris Moss in 1888, and the birth registrations for her Moss sons give Tarbard as her maiden name.
But after Ada’s remarriage to Richard Vowles in 1908, the birth registrations of the children she had with him show her maiden name as Curnock.
I can’t find Morris/Moses, Ada, Harry or Joseph Moss in 1901. If Morris/Moses died in Whitechapel in 1904 (as stated above), the death certificate may give a useful address – unless perhaps he died in the London Hospital, which was in that district.
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This doesn't answer your question, but it might be of interest.
The Daily News (London, England), Wed., Aug. 29, 1888, has a list of bankruptcy cases to "surrender in London," which includes "Moss, Morris, Prued-street, Paddington, clothier."
The Standard (London, England), same date, has: "Moss, Morris, Praed-street, Paddington, clothier, August 24."
I can't find anything else.
Edited to add:
The Morning Post (London, England), Wed., Sept. 19, 1888, has: "BANKRUPTS. NOTICES OF ADJUDICATIONS AND FIRST MEETINGS OF CREDITORS... M. Moss, Praed-street, Paddington, clothier and outfitter, September 26 [I think it's 26, but it could be 28], at 12."
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Re. the trip to New York: I'm looking at a passenger list on FamilySearch.org. There's Morris Moss, 27; Rosina Moss, 22; and Harry Moss, 1 month; all born in England. But Morris's occupation looks like Sailor.
Is this the passenger list in question?
Updated to ask: Was that ship sailing from Amsterdam?
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Tailor rather than sailor, maybe?
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Tailor rather than sailor, maybe?
I wondered about that, but there are other men on the same page who were listed as sailors, and the word looks the same to me. But maybe so.
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I had look through Doreen Bergers books in which she has transcribed a lot of Jewish reports from the Jewish Chronical found this
Rachel Moses death at 10th July 1874 @ 25 Cutler Street Houndsditch beloved wife of Zachariah Moses and Mrs Barnet Daughter and Mrs Judah Daughter.
also in Great Synagogue births
Isaac Butler Street Houndsditch 14th Oct 1864
Joseph 7 Market Street Finsbury 24th July 1851
Benjamin 6 Devonshire Street Bishopsgate 31st March 1857
MOSES, MOSES JUDAH
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in EAST LONDON Volume 01C Page 13
all were children of Zachariah & Rachel Moses.
This is fantastic, thanks so much. Is this resource readily accessible?
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This doesn't answer your question, but it might be of interest.
The Daily News (London, England), Wed., Aug. 29, 1888, has a list of bankruptcy cases to "surrender in London," which includes "Moss, Morris, Prued-street, Paddington, clothier."
The Standard (London, England), same date, has: "Moss, Morris, Praed-street, Paddington, clothier, August 24."
I can't find anything else.
Edited to add:
The Morning Post (London, England), Wed., Sept. 19, 1888, has: "BANKRUPTS. NOTICES OF ADJUDICATIONS AND FIRST MEETINGS OF CREDITORS... M. Moss, Praed-street, Paddington, clothier and outfitter, September 26 [I think it's 26, but it could be 28], at 12."
What a find. Maybe this is why he goes to New York then...it seems he really fell on bad times.
There is a bit of a story emerging here. Son of a Jewish clothier who has clearly done quite well for himself marries a daughter of another successful Jewish clothier, & then tragedy strikes with the loss of her & his son. Then he appears bankrupt one year later, gas what appears to be a bit of a shotgun wedding with a Gentile daughter of a traveller, runs off to New York.
Then what is even sadder is what family member has in his written down memories of Moses. That he took Harry to NY, that his wife died out there & that he was a drunkard.
Well we know that Ada Rosina was back in London. So perhaps this was the story poor Harry Moss was told about his mother & perhaps he went through life thinking both his parents had died when he was a child. I find it rather heartbreaking to be honest!But just speculation...
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Re. the trip to New York: I'm looking at a passenger list on FamilySearch.org. There's Morris Moss, 27; Rosina Moss, 22; and Harry Moss, 1 month; all born in England. But Morris's occupation looks like Sailor.
Is this the passenger list in question?
Updated to ask: Was that ship sailing from Amsterdam?
I thought it was Tailor, if it was then everything adds up - names, ages, the family story etc. It's a shame I can't show u the travel doc, but it sounds like the one you found, yes the boat departed Amsterdam (maybe came via London?). I found it on ancestry, but I'll transcribe the important bits...
Ship: P Caland
Arrives New York 20/04/1889
Morris Moss 27
Rosina Moss 22
Harry Moss 1 month (I think it says that, that's how it's transcribed anyway)
2 pieces of luggage
Destination U.S of America
The family story is that they weren't allowed to stay or were turned back but who knows. It's the only doc I can find of this trip
Travelled in the Family Compartment
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I wish I could find more on his bankruptcy case. I wonder if that's why they went to New York. Or maybe it had something to do with him marrying a non-Jewish woman. Or maybe both. It just seems strange to make such a big trip with a young baby.
When you say Ada Rosina was the daughter of a traveller, what does that mean? A travelling salesman? Or a traveller a.k.a. "gypsy"/Roma person? (Just curious.)
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Then what is even sadder is what family member has in his written down memories of Moses. That he took Harry to NY, that his wife died out there & that he was a drunkard.
Well we know that Ada Rosina was back in London. So perhaps this was the story poor Harry Moss was told about his mother & perhaps he went through life thinking both his parents had died when he was a child. I find it rather heartbreaking to be honest!But just speculation...
Do you know who raised Harry? We know that he was working for his paternal uncle, so it seems he was accepted by his father's family, at least.
It would be interesting to know if the family story was correct about the uncle not leaving anything to Harry in his will.
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Then what is even sadder is what family member has in his written down memories of Moses. That he took Harry to NY, that his wife died out there & that he was a drunkard.
Well we know that Ada Rosina was back in London. So perhaps this was the story poor Harry Moss was told about his mother & perhaps he went through life thinking both his parents had died when he was a child. I find it rather heartbreaking to be honest!But just speculation...
Do you know who raised Harry? We know that he was working for his paternal uncle, so it seems he was accepted by his father's family, at least.
It would be interesting to know if the family story was correct about the uncle not leaving anything to Harry in his will.
We should have the will in the next few days.
I have looked a lot at Issac Moss (Vernon), Harry's uncle - Harry wasn't with Isaac on the 1901 or 1911 census docs. I wanted to look to see if he was with his aunts Mary, Hannah or Fanny but I really struggle tracing forward in time, especially with women if they then lose their surname! But an idea for a rainy day.
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We should have the will in the next few days.
I have looked a lot at Issac Moss (Vernon), Harry's uncle - Harry wasn't with Isaac on the 1901 or 1911 census docs. I wanted to look to see if he was with his aunts Mary, Hannah or Fanny but I really struggle tracing forward in time, especially with women if they then lose their surname! But an idea for a rainy day.
I hope you'll keep us all posted as you learn more. It definitely takes time and effort but, as you're seeing, it can be well worth it.
:)
City directories can be helpful for tracing people in non-census years.
I don't know if this applies to the London area, but I've had some success tracing people in city directories that aren't online but can be found in libraries. Children weren't listed, but sometimes teenagers were, depending on the era. I have found young adults, who were living at home and either going to university or working, listed in the family home (or sometimes at the address where they were living as a boarder). Sometimes a daughter was listed by her married name if she and her new husband lived with her parents for a while. If a workplace was listed, that can help differentiate between people with the same name in subsequent years.
Access will be hampered by the lockdowns, of course, but those won't last forever. It might be worth investigating.
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quote
This is fantastic, thanks so much. Is this resource readily accessible?
[/quote]
She wrote 2 books
1 the Jewish genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861 - 1870
2 the Jewish genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871 - 1880
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quote
This is fantastic, thanks so much. Is this resource readily accessible?
She wrote 2 books
1 the Jewish genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861 - 1870
2 the Jewish genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871 - 1880
[/quote]
Currently not available at Waterstones and Book Depository.
Priced at £34:95
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This is fantastic, thanks so much. Is this resource readily accessible?
She wrote 2 books
1 the Jewish genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1861 - 1870
2 the Jewish genealogical information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871 - 1880
Currently not available at Waterstones and Book Depository.
Priced at £34:95
Check your local library (when it reopens). Several north London libraries have Berger on the reference shelves, including Hendon.
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Some info from the Issac Moss Vernon Will if you people are still interested in this story!
The Mrs Clayton was a Beatrice Clayton who lived in 17 Iverna Mansions in Kensington, & she was given the Hotel on Shaftesbury Avenue. Not really sure who she was.
His wife & sons got most of everything else, inc given the rights over the Gloucester Mansions of Cambridge Circus, but they still had to buy the freehold. The son Phillip was indeed given a bit of a cruel inheritance, he had to collect it weekly in London but was living in America or Canada at the time, it seems he came back & died in Margate area!
The Maggie Sayer of the newspapers isn't mentioned, prob why she went to court.
He leaves a little money to some nephews, a Lewis Edwards & a Benjamin Zachariah Edwards, not sure who they were but presumably one of his sister's sons.
And he leaves £150 & then £500 to "Harry Moss son of my brother Moses Moss".
Other clues are the associations he leaves money to;
- the Western Synagogue, Alfred Place, Tott Court Rd London
- the Jewish Board of Guardians, 127 Middlesex St London
- the Jewish home for Incurables
- the Home for Aged Jews in Wandsworth Common
- Charing X hospital
- a jockey & trainers home & hospital in Newmarket
I was wondering if the Jewish Board of Guardians might have had some involvement in Harry Moss' life. I had a bit of a look at the syngogue, seems it got bombed in the Blitz so not sure if they still have records...
Anyway thought you might like to know this.
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That's wonderful I've not read the whole thread so don't know if it's already been said but the Jewish school s kept good records which is another way to find people between census es
They list exact birth dates address and date of entry leavin school
& Name of parent or guardian ...I was lucky found my great grandfather as parent or guardian of his little half sister their father must have been away that day
Also if you're lucky it will have school they came from and reason for leaving
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Marvellous you do have evidence now.
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That is awesome, JeremyS!
I bet you'll be able to learn even more about your Moss family origins and I hope you keep us updated in this thread!
Regards,
Josephine
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Other clues are the associations he leaves money to;
- the Western Synagogue, Alfred Place, Tott Court Rd London
- the Jewish Board of Guardians, 127 Middlesex St London
- the Jewish home for Incurables
- the Home for Aged Jews in Wandsworth Common
- Charing X hospital
- a jockey & trainers home & hospital in Newmarket
I was wondering if the Jewish Board of Guardians might have had some involvement in Harry Moss' life. I had a bit of a look at the syngogue, seems it got bombed in the Blitz so not sure if they still have records...
Thanks for the update. Good to know you’re making excellent progress.
General information on the Western Synagogue (now the Western Marble Arch Synagogue) is here ...
https://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/London/western/index.htm
(follow the links for more information)
Some records for the Western Synagogue are in the care of London Metropolitan Archives (LMA), and most of them need written permission to access. This research guide is useful, with addresses of where to apply ...
https://search.lma.gov.uk/scripts/mwimain.dll/144/RESEARCH_GUIDES/web_detail_rg/SISN+44?SESSIONSEARCH
(link now corrected, sorry)
Also at LMA are the records for the Westminster Jews’ Free School (allied to the Western Synagogue), and for the Jews’ Free School (JFS) which was in Spitalfields. JFS records are indexed online at JewishGen, in the All UK Database.
https://www.jewishgen.org/databases/UK/
(You will need to create a log-in if you don’t already have one, but it’s free to access.)
Jewish children also attended the local London Board Schools, and many of those records are on Ancestry.
Charitable bequests to the Jewish Board of Guardians are fairly standard in wills, and there may be no particular family connection. Those records are held in the Jewish Care archive at the University of Southampton, in their Special Collections. Not easy to research.
https://www.southampton.ac.uk/archives/cataloguedatabases/webguidemss284.page
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The son Phillip was indeed given a bit of a cruel inheritance, he had to collect it weekly in London but was living in America or Canada at the time, it seems he came back & died in Margate area!
It looks like collecting his inheritance wasn't so onerous for Philip after all.
The Weekly Dispatch (London, England)
Sun., Sept. 27, 1925
“ROVER AND HIS LEGACY.
“NEED NOT CALL FOR HIS MONEY.
“‘It is a practical certainty that the clause will never be enforced. My brother will not have to call for his legacy week by week at the office of our solicitors – that is, unless he chooses to.’
“These were the words of Mr. Stuart Moss Vernon, discussing in a special interview yesterday the strange clause in his father’s will under which his brother, Mr. Philip Zachariah Moss Vernon, was left ₤40 per week, provided that he called for it personally at the office of the family solicitors.
“‘The question was left entirely to the discretion of the trustees, of whom I am one, and we have no intention of asking my brother to call for his money,’ Mr. Moss Vernon went on.
“‘It was in no way a caprice that led my father to make the stipulation in his will [sic] My brother Philip has always been a great roved [sic]; in fact, he has been abroad most of the time since my father died – and the provision that he should call for the money weekly was to guard against its going astray in the event of an accident to him.’
“Mr. Isaac Moss Vernon died in Switzerland ast [sic] January, and left an estate of ₤104,421, with ₤76,999 net personalty.”