RootsChat.Com

Thanks Garvary

That would put "my" Alice around 17 years old when she gave birth to my ancestor - not unbelievable.

Given that Don is related genetically - and that it looks like we are establishing his line more readily - it may mean that my Alice Kenny married one of her "cousins"..giving rise to the fact that on my ancestor's death certificate it states that his name is not only Kenny...but that his mother (Alice) also had the maiden name Kenny...something I can't quite believe....but we are finding that the name is not too uncommon in Fermanagh after all.....

I have posted a general "Alice Kenny" file on Rootschat which demonstrates the Alice's I identified as my "possbiles".....for many reasons I have discounted them as not the Alice I am looking for...........

I will post replies soon per one of my earlier e-mails - response slow (As always)

Kind Regards

Billy

Hi everybody!
Have started on my "battle plan"- so we will see what comes of that!
Garvary - that is another link too coincidental not to be investigated further.....I would believe there will have been thousands of shoemakers....but the whole "journeyman" aspect and Enniskillen "link" would indicate potential relations between our families.....it may also be the case that my ancestor (the shoemaker) simply disappears from British Census records intermittently....he must have been working in Ireland....or returned home to see his family.
For all concerned I will "post" copies of the death certificates for Alice Kenny for the timescale that "my" Alice would have died.......my assumption is that
1) she emigrated with other family members
2) she died between 1857 (when she is indicated as being alive on my ancestors marriage certificate) and 1864 (when the Irish death records become available)
I assume this because all records of the possible Alice's I just don't believe are her.....geography etc etc (you will see).....
Garvary - do you have any relations still in the Fermanagh area....I presume not.....and the elder relatives will probably have passed on without leaving much information.........are you in a position to have your own DNA checked to determine if you are related to Don and I?
As to the religion "issue" - I feel it comes down to one simple thing - survival!
Professor Kevin Kenny intimated to me that it is extremely common to find cases where individuals change their religion through convenience.
As to "Irish" and "English/Norman" Kenny's - I had an interesting discussion with someone who has a keen interest in cultural histories the other day..........I thought it would be impossible to distinguish between these Kenny's (because of the Norman Kenny's intermarrying with locals etc during the English dilution of Ireland)....BUT......our DNA is "classically" Celtic (determined by Oxford Ancestors)......this may not be interesting.....BUT.....Normans (from "Norse Men") were actually Vikings who settled in the area now known as Normandy................who then invaded England, then moved to Ireland etc etc.........."bottom line" is that I clicked when this was mentioned.............in simple terms if you're DNA is "Celtic" (and ours is!)  then we are of the indigenous Irish Celts (albeit originally from the Continent!) and not the English infiltrators! - since their DNA would be classcially "Viking" - the first ten "markers" are quite distinct from the "Calts" - HURRAH! Result!!!!!!! Going to be giving Scotland a bigger shout than ever next Tuesday when my son and I roar Scotland on in the World Cup Qualifiers!!!!!!!

.....or that these O'Rourke's are actually Kenny's.........now there's a story!

Hi Don and our newly identified family members!

Don - I seem to have lost your e-mail address!

I have been really interested to see all comments. For what it is worth my "tuppence worth" is as follows:

My known ancestor William Kenny was born between 1831 and 1833 - family lore states that we were from Fermanagh (Enniskillen is usually cited - but given that the area is relatively unkown to Scots I have a feeling that when asked this was probably stated since most people have heard of this town).

William was a "journeyman shoemaker" and he first appears when he is married in Ayr, Scotland, in 1857. He was married to a Scots girl (Irish parentage) in the Trinity Church in Ayr - this was Anglican. His parents are stated as being William (a Tailor to trade - must have been born around 1800-1810???) and Alice (maiden surname Kenny too??? - I find this doubtful - and more probable that William did not know his mother's surname???). Given Don's comments about his known family Wesleyan-Methodist roots - and the fact that we share the same male DNA - I am given to think that William was probably of the same persuasion - and that his wife perhaps swung him back to the "established church" (albeit the Irish established church - since Ayr is Presbyterian by majority).

William established himself in Scotland and had 12 children - Robert, Alice, Helen, Mary, William, John, McCandlish, Sarah, Janet, Elizabeth, Sarah (yes - another Sarah!) and James.

William's father was dead in 1857 and I am inclined to think that it is doubtful that he would simply have left his mother fend for herself following his father's death (the date being unknown at present - was he a child? was he in adulthood?)? This makes me think that he had other siblings. Most likely a "big brother" (given the Irish/Scots "naming system" - probably a Robert!) - since it is more common for junior family members to go out into the world "alone".

I am further inclined to think that "my" Alice either remarried (and took another name) or that she died between 1857 (her son's marriage) and 1864 (beleive this is when the deaths were officialy recorded from??? (may be incorrect here!).......or that she emigrated (since all the Alice Kenny death certificates which would put her in the correct age bracket were either unrelated OR died in workhouses - I cannot imagine that her son would let her die in this manner - surely he would have brought her to Scotland?).....

William is "missing" from several later Scottish census polls - with his younger siblings (the older ones being married etc etc) - and then he reappears - I like to think that he may have been visiting family in Fermanagh at these times (since ALL people's in the house at time of census were recorded).

Given that Don and I are related genetically it would be great if any Kenny's who remain in the area would undertake a DNA test and if they had further info that would be spectacular!

I feel we are so so close - since there is no way that we are not linked - The Thomas and William in "Brooke's deeds" are brothers and so irrespective of the few "missing links" we must be their descendants.

I asked after Wesleyan-Methodist records for the area but the search proved "blank". I have the Parish information from PRONI and will have a look through to see if I can identify anyone in the CoI records. I will advise all parties should I find anything.

I have thought about sending letters to Kenny's in the area and taking a "shot in the dark".....using addresses from local directories...might be worth a little effort on this front..........but might be a little intrusive of people's privacy - so I will consider the morality of that potential action!

Best Regards

Billy