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Messages - Zane81

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1
Durham / Re: Descendants of Henry Curry b.1816 d.1903, Durham
« on: Monday 18 December 23 04:28 GMT (UK)  »
I have drafted a letter that I will send to her address in the hopes that she is still living and still resides there. She would be approximately 75-76 now, so there is a good chance.

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Durham / Re: Descendants of Henry Curry b.1816 d.1903, Durham
« on: Monday 18 December 23 03:25 GMT (UK)  »
Quote from: Radcliff on Monday 18 December 23 01:14 GMT (UK)
Did Henry not marry Agnes Amelia Thompson 1909 Newcastle ,
Mary Eva Curry mothers maiden name Thompson birth registered Newcastle D 1910,

the daughter is still living in 2010, unmarried at her families home ,Prospect Road, ,

Thank you Radcliff, this is incredible information. This daughter seems like the most likely candidate to possess the kind of information I am after. Do you know how I might reach out to her?

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Durham / Descendants of Henry Curry b.1816 d.1903, Durham
« on: Saturday 09 December 23 10:31 GMT (UK)  »
Hi all,

I am looking for descendants of Henry Curry and Isabella Curry who might still be in the Durham / Newcastle upon Tyne area.

Their daughter Emma Curry b. 1855 in Hetton, Durham is my 2nd Great Grandmother who immigrated to Australia in 1885. Their son Robert Curry b.1857 also immigrated to Australia in 1885 but died shortly after in 1887. Immigration records show that Robert's wife Mary Ann and their surviving son Henry travelled to Australia in 1887 to be with Robert, but were back in the UK by the 1891 census. I know that Henry went on to marry Agnes Amelia Curry, and they had at least two daughters - Mary Eva and Agnes M.
My hope is that perhaps some correspondence between Robert and Mary Ann has survived through Henry's line and been passed down. I am trying to piece together Emma's life in Queensland for a documentary I am making, and this seems like it would have been a significant event for her. I am also hoping that correspondence from Emma herself might survive in a shoe box in someone's cupboard somewhere.

If anyone has any information about this family that might help, even old pictures, it would all be tremendously appreciated.

Thanks


4
Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Sideview confusion
« on: Sunday 03 December 23 05:55 GMT (UK)  »
Hi all, hope you can help me understand a problem.

Trying to identify Y-line 2nd great grandfather. Nothing is known about him other than he died after knocking up 2nd great grandma.
I performed the Leeds method on my DNA matches and was left with a group of American (I am Aussie, so is whole family) matches who were not matching with any one. I put them in the Unknown 2GGF bucket. Did genealogy, found out who the ancestral couples were, put them into my tree and resulted with ThruLines galore, matches going back to the 1700s. Mystery solved, at least as far as who the ancestral couples were.

Got my Dads DNA results back a couple of days ago and was excited to dig in and see if I could figure out the specific identity of Dads great grandfather only to realise - with abject horror - that all of these American matches were assigned to his as MATERNAL and according to that could not be cousins of our Y line ancestor. Now, I know that SideView isn't perfect but I need a second opinion from you learned folk.

My main points of contention with these results are:

1) I triangulate with all of these matches on Chromosome 22. We share one segment of between 29 to 35 cM depending on the person, and from what I understand that tends to confirm a recent common ancestor. In my Ancestry, my Paternal Ch22 is designated Welsh, and I have confirmed Welsh ancestry for this group through available trees. However, on my Dads ancestry, his Paternal Ch22 is designated Welsh as well, while his Maternal is English - yet these matches are assigned Maternal.

2) There is a gaping hole on the paternal side that these matches fit into. There are no holes on the Maternal side. When I do ThruLines for my Nans side going back to 4th great grandparent level, I get cousin matches galore for all lines. When I look at that, I just cannot see anywhere that there could have been a non paternity event to place these roughly 80 American 3rd cousins.

3) I have 2 Aunts, one matches to this cluster on Ch22, the other doesn't. The one who doesn't, when I put the American ancestral couples into her tree, she does match to a few dozen cousins that come from the families of both ancestral couples, and when I investigate them, they are all labelled as Paternal, which is why I was so certain in the first place I had these American cousins correctly placed.
Unfortunately, the Aunt who does match them has not done Ancestry, only MyHeritage so I uploaded her DNA to Gedmatch and confirmed triangulation there.

4) While no one on my dads Paternal side triangulates with these American cousins, no one on my dads Maternal side does either! It's just this group of people that me, my dad and my Aunt all triangulate with on Ch22. It isn't in a pile up region and it is one segment of at least 29 cM. The matches we are looking for to identify this mystery ancestor will be at the 3rd to 4th cousin level, and according to DNA Shared cM project, this cM segment lines up perfectly.

5) Perhaps most importantly, if I take those American cousins and shovel them into the Nan bucket, there is just no one left over to represent this 2nd great grandfather. Every 4th cousin or closer is matched to their respective line.

So after all of that, my question is simple: could SideView have phased my Dads Ch22 incorrectly, or failing that, just assigned these American cousins incorrectly because there were no other close matches to my Dad who triangulate with them?

Thanks all for reading through that, it was a lot!

5
Durham Lookup Requests / Re: John F Smith born approx 1857
« on: Wednesday 13 September 23 08:55 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Neale1961 on Monday 11 September 23 23:17 BST (UK)
Quote from: Zane81 on Monday 11 September 23 07:48 BST (UK)
To me, it is starting to look like she didn't even know John F Smith, and that when she realised she was pregnant by him and he was dead, she decided to say that they had been married. There is no evidence at all that they were ever married or that she knew anything about him other than his name. She does not even know his age on John Anthony Smith's birth record.

Clearly, Emma knew John Smith – she named him as father of her child, and knew his exact date of death.  On John’s inquest, if there is no mention of his wife (they had supposedly been married for over a year by then), then I would question if there was a marriage.
      If married, I would have expected them to be living together. At this time, on a large station like Terrick Terrick, typically farm labourers would be living on outposts, in huts with their wife and family. They may not come into the main homestead very often, and would have contact with, and get direction from, a station overseer.
      I would take Thomas Kent’s statement with a grain of salt, and his timing as very approximate. John could have gone into Blackall and back home again in a week, so his eventual demise could have been related to something else entirely. He may have been out on labouring work and lost his way. One wonders why his swag was so far from where he was found?
       As I haven’t seen the inquest, it is rather guess work on my part, but something doesn’t seem quite right.

Agreed, she absolutely knew who he was. My feeling is that they might have just met once or twice in Blackall, had a fling. He goes back to work, dies in quasi-mysterious circumstances. She finds out she is pregnant, knows he is the father. Then, rather than admit to anyone that she just had a fling with the babies father, she says that they were married the year before in Rockhampton. I'm sure back then no one would check or really be able to verify. Obviously all conjecture, but it's the only thing I can come up with that explains why she doesn't know his age, where he was from or any other details other than his name and when he died.

I have contacted Terrick to see if they have any records but not looking good so far. I'm now considering how to use my DNA results to try and narrow down the possible family branches.

Frustrating but also very intriguing!

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Durham Lookup Requests / Re: John F Smith born approx 1857
« on: Monday 11 September 23 07:48 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: wivenhoe on Monday 11 September 23 06:19 BST (UK)

Thank you for the details on the certificate.  Can you clarify please -

On John Anthony's birth record, it lists his father as:

"John Smith: deceased 29th September 1887. Parents: Unknown.
Married to Emily Curry April 1886, Rockhampton, Queensland. But in the next column "certified by" it gets her name correct as Emma.

I read this to mean that you have a birth certificate which records  name of baby's father....and accounts for father's origins ie. it records baby's parents...and grandparents?

Where was baby born?

Who is the informant?.  When and where was the birth registered?  Does it record an occupation for father?


On the marriage certificate, what names do you see for witnesses.....what church do they marry in (denomination).

It was not a proper birth certificate that I was able to find, just a births registry for the region of Maryborough.

I'll copy down all the information from it.

BABY
When are where born: 31st May, 1888 - Lady Musgrave Hospital, Maryborough Queensland
Name and whether present or not: John Anthony - not present

FATHER
Name and surname: John Smith
Rank or profession: Deceased 29th September
Age: Unknown
Birthplace: Unknown
When are where married: April 1886, Rockhampton, Queensland
Can't make out the next heading except for 'living and deceased': Just a tick, no writing

MOTHER
Name and maiden name: Emily formerly Curry
Age: 30 years
Birthplace: Wicklou Durham, England

INFORMANT: "Certified in writing Emma Smith, mother, Brisbane"

WITNESSES: 1) can't make out name 2) Mrs Ryland

REGISTRAR: Unknown signature - 19th June 1888, Maryborough

On her marriage certificate to James Clayton 24th June 1890
No denomination listed but the marriage was held at Wesley Passage, Maryborough
Witnesses: Alfred StrachawBeau (that's what it looks like) and Martha (german surname I cannot make out)

To me, it is starting to look like she didn't even know John F Smith, and that when she realised she was pregnant by him and he was dead, she decided to say that they had been married. There is no evidence at all that they were ever married or that she knew anything about him other than his name. She does not even know his age on John Anthony Smith's birth record.


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Durham Lookup Requests / Re: John F Smith born approx 1857
« on: Monday 11 September 23 04:04 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: Neale1961 on Monday 11 September 23 02:37 BST (UK)
A few thoughts for the moment, Zane. (I will look more, when I have more time.)

It is possible they were married at Terrick Terrick, but it never got recorded in the registration office, as the nearest town was probably Blackall – a long way to travel by horse of foot. They may have been married by a travelling minister, and the records are still held in the church that he was associated with. Perhaps contacting the Blackall family history centre will give you more information in that regard.


Interesting point. I had not considered the distance between Terrick and Blackall which I now see would be a few days walk or a full days hard ride.

In his death inquest, a worker at Terrick called Thomas Kent said: 'I last saw him about one month before. He was going into Blackall. He said he was "going in for a feed of Rum". I never saw him alive again.' Thomas was interviewed on the 30th September 1887, so this means John left Terrick around the start of September. His body was found on the 28th September, and it was noted that he had been dead for several days by that point, so he could have been dead around the 23-25 September. His swag was found 3 miles from Terrick station, so a search party was sent out. They found his body about 5 miles from his swag. So it looks like he had made it most of the way back to the station before he died.

Using an online calculator, I determined that Emma would have fallen pregnant most likely between the 6-10th September, but with a possible range of conception dates of 5th-15th September, but the earliest date they could have had intercourse was August 31st. This places Emma in Blackall! Intriguing, I had always assumed she stayed in Rockhampton. The Blackall historical society may have something about this.

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Durham Lookup Requests / Re: John F Smith born approx 1857
« on: Monday 11 September 23 01:48 BST (UK)  »
Quote from: wivenhoe on Sunday 10 September 23 12:34 BST (UK)

 "She gave birth to my great grandfather John Anthony Smith in 1888 in Bundaberg, Queensland"

* Can you please list all the information on this birth certificate, 1888.

* Can you please list all the information on the death certificate of your great great grandfather ....who died before his son was born, 1888

 "She married James Clayton in 1890"

* Can you list all the information on this marriage certificate, 1890.

Thanks all for the responses. I'll direct my answers to this quote because it covers mostly everything.

On John Anthony's birth record, it lists his father as:

"John Smith: deceased 29th September 1887. Parents: Unknown.
Married to Emily Curry April 1886, Rockhampton, Queensland. But in the next column "certified by" it gets her name correct as Emma.

^^ This information was how I was able to find his death record and the coronial inquest.

On his death certificate, it says
Date: "On or about the 28th September, 1887."
Name and surname, rank or profession: "John Smith, laborer"
Sex and age: "Male about 30"
Cause of death: "Exposure, lost in bush"
Name and surname of father and mother: "Unknown"

On Emma's marriage certificate to James Clayton, her details are:
Brides name: Emma Smith
Residence: Bundaberg
Condition: Widow
Age: 28 (she lied here, she was 35 by this stage, marrying a 22 year old. She ended up dying in 1936 while James lived up until 1964).
Birthplace: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Northumberland, England
Fathers name: Henry Curry
Mother's name: Isabella (Trimmer? Swimmer? It's not clear)
Marriage date: 24th June, 1890

With all of this information, I was able to search the Arrivals information for the years prior to their alleged wedding in 1886 in Rockhampton. (I say alleged because I have a feeling she might have said they were married after he died because she was pregnant. She does not even know his parents names, so there is a good chance they had a quick fling and that was that. There is no official record of their marriage).
Assuming it is correct that he was 30 at the time of his death in 1887, then going through the John Smith's who arrived in the years prior to 1882, the only one who is the approximate correct age and who landed in Rockhampton is John F Smith, as listed in my first post from Durham. I use Rockhampton as the arrival port because she claims they were married there, and that is the closest port of arrival to Terrick Terrick station, where he worked as a laborer.

The biggest hole in my plan is that I don't know what year he arrived. He could have been there for 10 years before he met Emma for all I know.

Big mess to untangle!

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Durham Lookup Requests / John F Smith born approx 1857
« on: Sunday 10 September 23 10:01 BST (UK)  »
Hi all.

I am trying to figure out how to identify a John Smith out of seemingly infinite number of John Smiths. The one in particular I am looking for immigrated to Rockhampton Australia in 1885 on the ship Roma, which departed from Glasgow. It lists him as being 28, single, English and from county Durham. His name on this record is John F Smith.
From this, assuming he has given correct details to immigration personnel, then he was born around 1857 somewhere in Durham county. Unfortunately, that is all I have to work with and have hit a brick wall in my research.

My great-great grandfather John Smith died approximately 3 weeks after my great-great grandmother Emma Curry from Newcastle Upon-Tyne became pregnant with their son. She gave birth to my great grandfather John Anthony Smith in 1888 in Bundaberg, Queensland. She married James Clayton in 1890 and changed her sons name to John Anthony Clayton. If it wasn't for a birth record I was able to find while researching the Clayton line, we would never have known that we are actually Smith's and not Clayton's! I am able to trace the Clayton line back quite far, but I have absolutely no idea what branch of the Smith's we belong to.

Any help would be very appreciated.
Cheers

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