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Messages - M_ONeill

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19
Derry (Londonderry) / Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« on: Monday 03 July 23 23:51 BST (UK)  »
Hi, good to hear from you! I remember coming across your American branch before when looking up the various 'Stafford' families.

They definitely bear a number hallmarks of the Downing families around Dreenan. Firstly, there's the usage of the Stafford name itself (I believe I'm right in saying that one of Betty and Robert's children was called Stafford?). Secondly, there's the related surnames; Henry is a very common surname in the area, being particularly concentrated in the area of the Dreenan Bridge.

The name Fullerton might also of note. dukewm has already noted how the Fullertons of Ballintoy were intermarried with the Downings of Rowesgift, leading to that branch adopting the surname in 1794. I have also come across the surname Fullerton with increasing frequency while researching the O'Neills of Rocktown. There were at least two local O'Neill-Fullerton marriages that I can find, with the name appearing as sponsors and witnesses on a number of O'Neill marriages and baptisms. The Fullerton family seems to have been fairly prominent around Bellaghy as well as to some of the townlands to the north of the town. I've yet to determine whether the Fullertons of Ballintoy were the origin of all the local Fullertons, or whether they are unrelated families of the same name.

One thing we should note is that it seems unlikely that your Elizabeth Sharon is another direct descendant of the Stafford Downing who married Rose Mulholland. This is because they had a surviving daughter called Elizabeth, likely born sometime during the mid-to-late 1780s, who married a Michael Dinnen. This makes me wonder if your Elizabeth Sharon might have been from a cousin branch. Perhaps the child of a sibling of this later Stafford Downing?

20
Derry (Londonderry) / Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« on: Wednesday 28 June 23 23:00 BST (UK)  »
Hey all, I hope anyone following this topic is doing fine! I thought I'd add a couple of small updates to the thread.

I've recently done an Ancestry DNA test, and while I'm waiting for my results, my paternal first cousin has let me take a look at his. While combing through them I discovered a fairly distant relation (9cM shared) whose tree I nevertheless immediately recognised as belonging to the Ballymacpeake branch of the Stafford O'Neills, specifically from one son who stayed in Ireland. There was then another account (also 9cM) who seems to be descended from one of the sons who went to New Zealand. This is the first solid evidence I've found for my long term theory that the two 'Stafford' O'Neill branches are indeed cousin branches.

On top of this, there was a Thruline given by Ancestry that suggested another account (11cM shared) that appears to be a direct descendant of Elizabeth Downing and Michael Dinnen. I still need to do a bit of checking, but the initial read-through does seem to bear out.

This, combined with the other research I've done on land occupancy, naming traditions etc., makes me more and more convinced that the genealogy of Stafford Downing and Rose Mulholland's four daughters as recounted by Stafford Poole is indeed correct.

As an outside chance, there is one result way down in my cousin's matches who seems to descend from some of the Downings of Kilberry Downing, specifically a James Downing and his wife Bridget Henry, married on the 13th Jan 1868 in the R.C. church at Lavey. The tree gives James' parents as John Downing and Ann Knib.

Now, this person's tree has a number of other families from the same area, so it's hard to say whether the DNA link comes from the Downing branch or elsewhere, but I thought it worth mentioning. Said match also has a shared match with my cousin - an account whose descent (or at least part thereof) I've managed to trace back to the Carmichaels of Drumard and possibly to my own direct ancestors William Carmichael and Mary McAward/Ward.

21
Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Re: Interpreting Degree of Relation from multiple DNA Matches.
« on: Thursday 22 June 23 11:41 BST (UK)  »
Thanks for the response, Petros!

I have to say, I'd be surprised if the link was that close - but that's with me assuming the link is through the name/line that I suspect it is. It is of course possible that the connection comes via an unknown or undiscovered family link marrying in through one of the later generations - or at least later than their initial ancestor's emigration from Ireland.

I'm also entertaining the possibility that the higher matched DNA from the descendants of A1 may be due to us sharing more than one related line of ancestry. This is currently just a theory based on some shared surnames and locations in *other* matches. Need more research on that front.

Also, I've finally done my own DNA test, which might hopefully give some extra detail!

22
Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing / Interpreting Degree of Relation from multiple DNA Matches.
« on: Tuesday 20 June 23 12:49 BST (UK)  »
Hello, all.

I've recently been asked to go through my paternal 1st cousin's DNA matches to see if I can find anything interesting. I've found an interesting cluster of results and wanted to get a collective opinion on whether getting a ballpark estimate on the degree of relationship was possible. The family in question likes to keep their tree mostly private, so I hope you'll excuse me skirting around the names.

So, my cousin has five matches from separate Ancestry kits, all descended from one man (we'll call him 'A'). These five results all descend from three of A's Children (A1, A2, A3):

A1: Two results, grandchildren of A, children of A1. Male and female in their 60s (31 and 32cM shared with my cousin respectively).

A2: Two results, a male grandchild of A and child of A2 (11cM shared), along with his own son, the great-grandchild of A (10cM).

A3: One result, a female descendant of A (8cM) Unsure whether this is a grandchild, great grandchild, etc, but she is definitely a descendant of A through A3.

There is also a sixth result, a person of unknown gender (13cM). This person descends from a woman of the same (maiden) surname as A, from the same area (We'll call this woman B). A number of Ancestry trees place her as the older sister of A from the same parents, and conversations with the descendants of A suggest that this link is most likely correct.

Now, I'm aware that these are all very distant relations, but can anyone give an idea of what sort of degree of relationship we're looking at here? There is a shared surname in this branch with our own tree, and some evidence suggests that A's family left Ireland (where mine and my cousin's ancestry remained based) in the early 1800s, with A and B's own father being born in Canada. Also, is there any potential significance in A1s children having a higher cM match with my cousin or is that just 'the luck of the draw' in genetics terms?

Thanks in advance!   

23
Derry (Londonderry) / Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« on: Tuesday 06 December 22 00:29 GMT (UK)  »
Tithe Applotment Books (1821-1851)

The next appearance of the O'Neill surname that I've found is on the Tithe Applotment Books. These books were compiled as part of a survey performed in order to determine how much money (or 'tithe') occupants of land over one acre owed to the established, protestant church.

In Dreenan the survey was conducted in 1828, and showed the following O'Neill head of households in Dreenan and the surrounding townlands:

Dreenan
Unnamed O'Neill
Felix O'Neill
Daniel O'Neill
Staford O'Neill★
Danl O'Neill

Drummard
Daniel O'Neill

Gullyduff
Unnammed O'Neill

Dungleady
Chas. O'Neill

Rocktown
Charles O'Neill☆
Jas. O'Neill★


Note that some later townlands are not named in this survey; Eden for example is likely being counted as part of Dreenan. Also of note is that some townlands which do later have a considerable presence of O'Neills are shown here as not having any, such as Ballymacpeake.

The O'Neill surname is actually the second most common listed in Dreenan (assuming none of these individuals are repeated), though easily dwarfed by the Downings who sit in first place with fourteen (!) listed names.

The two names I've highlighted in bold in the applotment books are potentially important re: a Downing connection. The 'Staford' [sic] shown in Dreenan obviously bears the name almost synonymous with the Dreenan Downings. Of the two O'Neills listed as being in Rocktown, James is of particular interest to me personally, as I think my 3x great grandmother Ellen O'Neill may have been the daughter of a James O'Neill. Her (presumed, but likely) brother Stafford O'Neill takes over farmland from a James O'Neill in 1862.

My current (unproven) hypothesis is that the Staford and James listed in 1828 may have been brothers, children of the James O'Neill and Esther Downing mentioned earlier in the thread. My hunch (again unproven) is that Staford may have been the progenitor of the Ballymacpeake branch of 'Stafford' O'Neills by way of Eden; oral family history from that line has George Stafford O'Neill (b. 1860) recalling leaving Eden for Ballymacpeake being 'a boy about 5'.

The highlighted James O'Neill could therefore possibly be the progenitor of the 'Stafford' O'Neill branch of Rocktown. It would potentially explain why the 'Stafford' naming convention is so much stronger in the Ballymacpeake branch than the Rocktown one; a name taken from a more recent direct paternal ancestors perhaps being stronger presence in a family than one taken from more distant relatives.

The Charles O'Neill I've also highlighted from Rocktown could also have a connection to the Downings, though the evidence is even more tenuous than for Staford and James. The only record I can find from around that time in Rocktown is the 1838 catholic baptism of a Charles O'Neill son of a Charles O'Neill and a Mary Fullerton. The family's residence as listed as Killard, the specific subdivision of Rocktown in which all later O'Neills in the townland would live, my ancestors included. (Killard is the northeast corner of Rocktown, right along the border of Drumard).

My eye here is drawn to the name of the mother, Mary Fullerton. This is obviously a name and a family also close to the Downings. Again, it's a tenuous link, but if this is indeed the Charles O'Neill listed in 1828, I find myself wondering if it's telling that both of the only two O'Neills shown in Rocktown have a (potential) Downing connection.

I'll leave it there for now, but I'll probably keep posting any relevant bits and pieces to this thread as and when I find them!

24
Derry (Londonderry) / Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« on: Tuesday 06 December 22 00:27 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Jack, thanks for posting to the thread! Hopefully you find a connection to your tree in here.  :)

I thought I'd post some things related to my latest research on the O'Neills of the local area. I think there's definitely a link between the O'Neills of Rocktown and the O'Neills of Dreenan; in fact, my current hypothesis is that the local O'Neills may have started in Dreenan and then spread out from there. I remain convinced that at least one branch of these O'Neills is fairly heavily entwined with the Downings.

(This will likely be spread over a couple of posts)

The Rent Roll Books of The Bellaghy Estate

The first mention of the O'Neills in the local area that I have found is in the Rent Rolls for Dreenan (1718 - 1793). From 1718 - 1729 the only two surnames represented are Mulholland and Downing, with the former paying far more than the latter. This likely represents the Mullholland's former status as the major landowners in the area under the old Gaelic system:

Quote
In 1660 these four townlands were listed as under the tenancy of one Cormuck O’Mulholland, Esquire and were entirely Irish. The numbers of adults of tax-bearing age was given for each townland: – Drummuck[7], Mayogall[3], Bally McPeake[7], Dreenan[6] (...) Bryan Mulholland was listed in Drumard in Tamlaght O’Crilly parish which is contiguous with Mayogall and ten Irish adults were tax-payers in 1660.
(Although he's may be too old to be the one listed in the Downing's Dreenan lease of 1734, the name Bryan Mulholland naturally draws the eye here.)

After 1729 there is a gap in the roll books until 1775 when a third name appears in the list: A 'Phelemy O'Neill & Co'. The Downings' rent has risen considerably, which would tally with Dukewm's fantastic research regarding the Downings increased landholdings in Dreenan in the mid-18th century.

By 1788 the names on the roll books have multiplied; reflecting legal changes that made it far easier to get leases on land, as well as the gradual dilution of land through passing generations. Other names that would become prominent in the townland have appeared (e.g. Henry, Higgins, later Convery), as well as a James O'Neill in 1789. I find it potentially telling that the first reported marriage between the O'Neills and the Dreenan Downings came within a generation or so of the O'Neill's first appearance on the rent rolls for the townland.

25
Derry (Londonderry) / Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« on: Saturday 03 December 22 21:05 GMT (UK)  »
Interesting that you bring up the Linen manufacturing - one of the Dreenan O'Neills was a John O'Neill son of a Felix O'Neill. His will 1889 lists him as a 'Flax-Buyer'. His daughter Mary married Thomas Downing, son of Mary and Robert Downing. Thomas Downing would be the nephew of my putative ancestor Esther Downing.

The earliest reference I can find to a Stafford O'Neill is in the Tithe Applotment Books of 1828. He is listed as a head of household in that year, though strangely the 1831 census of the area doesn't show him. My current (unproven) theory is that he may be a child of James O'Neill and Esther Downing. I suspect there may be a 'missing generation' here, as the catholic records mostly only go back to the 1830s, with sporadic and incomplete records from the late 1820s.

Thanks for taking a look! If I find any other interesting O'Neill/Downing connections, I'll let you know.  :)

26
Derry (Londonderry) / Re: All Things DOWNING/DOWNEY in County Derry
« on: Friday 02 December 22 18:21 GMT (UK)  »
Hi Dukewm, hope you're well!

I'm currently attempting to put together a piece of work untangling all the various O'Neill families of Dreenan and the surrounding townlands. We'll see how far I get with it (it's obviously a lot to go through!), but sure enough a few families in I've run into some Downings and I'm trying to see if I can narrow down which particular ones!

The question centres on one particular group of O'Neills (name written Neill) sharing ~18 Acres in Dreenan as shown in the initial Griffiths valuations:

Map ref 47

a) Michael Neill
b) Hugh Neill
c) Arthur Neill

Lessor: Julius Casement

I'm not sure which is the elder of this trio, as their land all changes hands roughly around the same time. Arthur's land on plot 47 c) switches to a Bernard O'Neill sometime around or prior to 1870, then again in 1871 to a Henry O'Neill.

Plot 47 a) switches from Michael to a Henry O'Neill around the same time (I think likely the same man). 47 b) goes from Hugh to a William Downing around 1872. In 1873 there's some reorganisation, likely to reconstitute the three former holdings into two . They are then held by Henry O'Neill and William Downing as two neighbouring holdings well into the 1890s.

Now, I suspect that there may be more than simply a land/business relationship going on here. In 1895 Henry's portion of land is split in two, going to Mary O'Neill and Arthur O'Neill. I'm fairly sure that this Arthur is the same one present in the 1901 census of Dreenan with his wife Nancy (née Henry). They have a number of children that I can find, but of interest to us here is their daughter Bridget, who married a Henry Downing/Downey of Eden in 1892. He himself was the son of a William.

Now firstly, I'm not sure how or where the Eden and Dreenan branches of the Downings are connected, but I suspect with the land changes above we're likely dealing with the branch that descends from the marriage of William Downing and Matilda Downing (m. 1866, Maghera).

In 1895, the Downings appear to purchase their portion of the above land, and it is thereafter leased by 'William Downing Snr', to 'William Downing Jr.' I'm assuming that the senior William Downing listed here is the husband of Matilda; seeing as his own father William passed in 1902 and yet there is no change in the lessor name through the revisions of 1894-1919. There's always the possibility that there was indeed a change and it was simply missed due to the repeated name, but I think that's an outside chance.

I'd be very grateful if you could cast an eye over the above and see if it makes sense to you. Do I have the right bunch of Downings, here?  :)

27
Armed Forces / Re: Thomas Lovatt and the English Civil War
« on: Sunday 03 July 22 15:33 BST (UK)  »
Hi George,

I don't know about Lizzie, but I still drop in and out of the forums!

I have you right, then the Jeremiah you mention is the one listed as 'Pater Familias' (head of the family) in the records; his will being an exceptionally large one with many bequests. I believe that I descend through Jeremiah's eldest sister Elizabeth (married surname Masefield).

I am also yet to find a confirmed link into Jeremiah's branch, although there does seem to be one. There's a Draper Lovatt who dies in 1830 who seems to (potentially) have taken over the Lovatt family holdings in Wheaton Aston by the time of his death.

I've wondered if he may be from another branch of the Lovatt Family, linked to Jeremiah somewhat more distantly. There are definitely a few of them threaded through the local region. As for the London link, I have it pencilled in as a possibility, but I've yet to find any hard evidence of a connection.

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