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I need some help with my Thomas ALLEN…

This is a complicated web of bits and pieces and assumptions and guesswork and process of elimination that just about hangs together that I’ve been toying around with for a while. I could spend ages giving lots of detail – please ask if you need extra source references etc. But here’s the basics of a line I’m trying to follow at the moment:

Caroline Allen, born Isle of Wight c1815 +- up to 5 years. Newchurch/Ryde area.
Her father was Thomas ALLEN, born Isle of Wight, a bricklayer, who moved with several of his children to the London area sometime after 1826.

Caroline has (at least) two children, listed in the IGI:
Thomas ALLEN christened St Martin in the Fields, Jun 1839. No father listed. No date of birth given.
Edmund ALLEN christened St Martin in the Fields, Dec 1845, No father listed. Date of birth given.
Edmund is my great grandfather – and I have his birth certificate. All adds up nice and clean.

I just can’t find a birth cert for Thomas. I’ve checked the St Martin parish records. Caroline is listed as resident in St Martin in the Fields workhouse for the two christenings. She does not appear to be there for the 1841 census though.

The children Thomas and Edmund appear to be raised by their grandfather Thomas and his wife Sarah in the Lambeth/Newington area.
In 1841: HO107/1058; Folio: 7; Page: 10 - Just Thomas, age 2. NB: the older Edmund here is Caroline’s brother.
In 1851: HO107/1557; Folio: 183; Page: 35. Edmund 7, Thomas 12 – both born St Martins.
In 1861, possibly (RG9; Piece: 336; Folio: 135; Page: 32)  (here, there are two Edmunds and one Thomas – I think this is a mistake, and the elder Edmund should be the brother Thomas. I’ve extensively looked for other Edmund/Edward Allens and if it isn’t a mistake, then he’s v difficult to place elsewhere). If the brother Thomas is incorrectly listed as Edmund, the family unit would make sense with other sources.

In the 1861 census, Thomas (if that is he) gives his place of birth as Ryde, Isle of Wight.

It is possible that Thomas was born on the Island, but christened in London. However, I cannot find a Thomas ALLEN born on the Island 1837-1839. The great and complete IOW FHS BMD index does not list either an Edmund or Thomas ALLEN registered 1837-1841, so could Thomas have either never been registered or registered away from where he was born? Or was he simply born in London and I’ve just not found him yet. Because he was 2 in 1841, I would expect him to be within civil registration.

In 1871-1881 censuses, there is a Thomas ALLEN b circa1840 IOW living in the Lambeth area married to a Lydia b 1847 Harwich. This would help confirm his birth possibly or give me a couple of witnesses but I can find no marriage record for this marriage.
No idea what happens to Lydia or Thomas.

The puzzles are:
1)   Birth cert for Thomas, 1839 ish?
2)   Marriage cert for Thomas and Lydia?
3)   What happens to Thomas or Lydia – there is a possible in 1901 for Thomas, but can’t find him in 1891 and no death record.
4)   Where’s Caroline in all this anyway – she shows up again in 1864, then MIA again until 1881. Maybe this is a whole other puzzle....
5)   Another theory…? Am currently thinking he maybe have used some other name or something.

Many thanks to anyone who gives this any thought
cheers
dilly

Hi Debbie,

It is all very odd.

Who notifies the death for John in 1852? Anyone useful?

How sure are you of "Endell" - is the writingng clear?  I thought possibly Catherine could have been a widow as a Crow when she married John, but this would make her first marriage very very early. It does all seem very unlikely though given the ages given.

What happens to John the younger (John and Catherine's son)? Have you been able to discount him as a dead husband of Caroline by 1860?

dilly

Do you have the 1871 reference? If we can find him earlier, maybe we can get more sure of his age...?

Hello everyone,

I've tried all sorts of combinations to find this chap Benjamin COATES  in 1861 and 1871, though I have him earlier and later. 

This is a bit long but I thought I'd give you everything I already have. In Sep 1810, Benjamin Deberson(sp) Coates is christened in Littlehampton, Sussex. His parents are William and Sabrina Coates(IGI).  William Coates and Sabrina Deburson married in 1806 in Bermondsey (Pallots).

Benjamin moves back to Bermondsey and marries Eliza Ann Marshall in Newington (1833, IGI) , and has the following children:

Eliza Elizabeth 1834
Benjamin deburson (sp), 1836
Jemima, 1839
Rosina Elizabeth 1841
William John 1843
James 1845
Robert 1847
Susan, 1853

And, in 1841, they’re living in Bermondsey, Leather Market.
HO107/1047/2 Folio 18, Page 28

Benjamin COATES, 28, Fellmonger, Born in county: No
Eliza, 25, Born in county:Y
Eliza, 7
Benjamin, 5
Jemima, 3
Rosina, 4 M

In 1851, they’re still around the Bermondsey area.
HO107/1562 Folio 297, Page 23

Benjamin Deberson COATES, 39, Head, Mar, Fellmonger, born Sussex
Eliza Ann COATES, 38, Wife, Mar, b Berrmondsey
Benjamin, 15, b Bermondsey
Jemima, 12
Rosina, 9
William, 7
James, 6
Robert, 4


By 1861, the family appears to have split up. The daughter Eliza is married to a Robert Rowland (1859), and the youngest child Robert is living with them. James and William are boarding with a family in Hertfordshire. There is a death record in BMD for a Susan Coates in 1855. There is also a death record for Benjamin Deveason Coates (sic), in 1859 – which is presumably the son.

However, I can’t find Eliza and Benjamin snr. I presume they're dead but....

In 1881, still in Bermondsey:
RG12/563 – Folio 70, Page 10.
Benjamin COATES, 69, Fellmonger, b Littlehampton, Sussex
Caroline COATES, 63, Isle of Wight

I found the marriage and Benjamin marries Caroline ALLEN in 1864. I have the cert and I know it is the same Benjamin as Eliza Rowland is the witness.  Benjamin and Caroline both die before the next census.

So, I'd love to find Benjamin in 1861 and Benjamin and Caroline in 1871. As mentioned, I've looked a fair bit but cannot find them. I'm really hoping that perhaps others will have more skill and experience at searching.

Many thanks in advance

dilly

Hi all,

I'm hoping some kind soul may have some experience of this kind of thing...

I have a death cert where the informant is the Surrey Coroner and the date registered for the death is much later than the date of death. Any idea why this might have happened?

The cause of death box says (I think) - Natural death. Internal Rupture of the Stomach by distention

Then it appears to say underneath: "Inquest 20 minutes" though it's v hard to read. I will try to obtain and add a piccie of it. Does anyone know what the "20 minutes" might be about - I've never seen that before on a death certificate.

Death occured 25th January 1851 and death was registered 31 May 1851. Informant was William Carter, Coroner for Surrey, Kingston. The death occured at 22 Felix Street, Westminster Road, Lambeth.

I was expecting the wife to be the informant. And I thought that you had to register the death to be able to bury someone, so does this mean he lay unregistered or even undiscovered for ages? If so, how is the date of death so exact?

BTW, his wife was actually pregnant at this point, and by the time of the census in March, she has a 8 day old baby. But I know very little about John Meller as he dies just before the 1851 census.

Is this a clue to a weird juicy story, in which I should maybe chase inquest reports in the newspapers, or is my overactive imagination getting the better of me and this is just a common or garden death registration with odd paperwork...?

Any thoughts welcome.

dilly