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fantastic,  I have thomas William Murray's Birth certificate and marriage certificate and Thomas and Annie's Marriage Certificate and yes Betty is right that they were both (Annie and THomas Senior) were stated as being 18 years old when married in 1897.

I cannot find when THomas Senior Died and Yes Annie was in Cane Hill Hospital when she died in 1943. I have the original  Death card and also sent one to Betty (as a nice gesture).

If anyone can find details of Thomas Seniors Death I am happy to order it to gather more information.

lynne.

Hello out there,

We are definately researching the same Frederick William Clare - Grace Swinchatt.
I stronglybelieve as you have seen that Frederick William Clare was originally brought up as Frederick William Murray.  Family (his brother) Thomas William Murray told me and of course my father (Allan Thomas Murray) that the family had a big fight and he didnt say why.  Only that Fred Changed his surname to clare and Catherine and Fred no longer spoke with family.

Fred has signed "Their" mothers death certificate and arranged the funeral as Tom was at war at the time.
I have those originals.
I hold the birth certificate of Thomas Murray Senior (Who is father of Thomas William and step father or father? of Frederick clare)  There is also a sister  Catherine Murray that Grandad said that also stopped speaking to family.   Annie (fred's Mother) died in 1943 I have original docs on this too.  Catherine Married a Brichard.

I have lots of notes tracking Fred down ... He worked for the railway at Euston Station as a young boy.   Yes I have seen the birth/Baptism of Frederick Clare - Father Frederick and Monther Annie Clare.   It is in amongst my research papers.   Id love to talk more.  Lynne Murray (thomas Murrays Grandaughter/Fred's Great Niece.
Do you have any photos?

Betty, I have found the mysterious Catherine Murray - daughter of Thomas and Annie (or maybe not) annie.....Still no luck with frederick but still convinced its frederick Clare. Lynne.

I have a question:   I thought NEE was Maiden Name.  I have an entryof Birth where the mothers name is stated ANNIE MURRAY formerly SEWELL is there a difference? Thx

Good Morning Betty and all that are helping here.  Thank you so very much.

I would like to confirm that Frederick W Murray did change his name officially from Murray to Clare.
My grandfather and father confirmed this over the years. 

May I ask with the Rose MURRAY at the same address as Fredrick may I ask if it says how old she is?
and relationship.

The Swinchat relationship I did pick up and had this as a possiblility so thank you there.  Very much worth trying to find out more.

Betty Im not sure of whether or not Thomas Jnr was older or younger than the others.  this was never spoken about Just the definate 'brother and sister' and their names.

Thanks everyone. 

I think the key to all this will be with the possible grandmother of Thomas W, Frederick W and Katherine.  The Death announcement card I have for her is Caroline Elizabeth Murray possibly known as Elizabeth Murray - Wife of James Murray.  The card says.... In affectionate remembrance of Caroline Elizabeth Murray   who passed away January 22nd 1936 aged 79 years. Layed to rest at Abney Park Cemetary In Grave No 50147.

1901 census has a james murray and elizabeth Murray with Sons Thomas (12) and David (3) at 10 Francis Court Clerkenwell.

could anyone extend on this for us Please.