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« on: Saturday 05 November 05 08:55 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for that suggestion, very good idea - and yes I agree there seems to be a generation problem. I really would appreciate people’s views on this puzzling case.
Baptism records of
John Baldwin 07/01/1837
Dora Baldwin 10/12/1838
Catherine Baldwin 03/08/1845
To a Henry Baldwin and Ellen Williams at Killmurry, Co Cork Catholic Church. Witnessed by Mary Williams and Catherine Williams.
These entries have come through two different sources. Paul MacCotter, Elizabeth Baldwin’s, Granddaughters researcher and another Baldwin descendant who had carried out he own research in Ireland
Paul MacCotter opinion is that these three children are the illegitimate children of Henry Baldwin 1st son of William Baldwin of Lizzarda. (Ref to Burkes Landed Gentry)
He has also concluded that John b 1836 was in fact William and a name change occurred later on. This William became a Captain in the army, went to live in New Zealand around 1862, and married Janet Curling on 04/08/1863.
The reason why he concluded William was the son of Henry Baldwin was that an article appeared in the West Cork Eagle and County Advertiser 2 Dec 1871, about William and his life in New Zealand and it referred to him being the nephew of Rev, William Baldwin of Glandore who was 2nd son of William of Lissarda. (Ref to burkes landed Gentry)
William Baldwin b 1836/6 has always claimed his sister was Elizabeth Baldwin who married John Ilott and went to live in New Zealand near to where William was living and this has been passed down via Elizabeth’s family.
The facts and documents behind Elizabeth
She married John Ilott in Manchester on 02/09/1882
On her marriage certificate it says her father was a Henry Baldwin Gentleman
However an age stages 29, which would mean she was born 1853, not 1838
(Copy in my possession)
Elizabeth died in 14/08/1930 Wellington, New Zealand
On her death certificate it says she was age 76 = b 1854
It says her father was a Henry Baldwin and mother Helen Williams from Ireland
(Copy in my possession)
Elizabeth had a sister called Catherine/Kathleen (according to Elizabeth family) and she was found living in poverty in Manchester in 1924 by Elizabeth’s father and was bought back to New Zealand where she died in 18/07/1932 in Wellington, New Zealand. It says she was 77 = b. 1855/6 and her father was Henry Baldwin mother Helen Williams from Ireland. Please bare in mind this information would have come from Elizabeth’s sons so it may not be correct.
(Copy in my possession)
There are no census records in New Zealand to confirm ages and place of birth of these two women.
It’s also worth pointing out that Henry Baldwin 1st son of William of Lisarda died in 1848.
My Dora
Married a Thomas Pyle Gould on 27/01/1867 in Bristol and her marriage certificate says her fathers name was Henry Baldwin Captain in the Army. (Copy in my possession) There are no records of a Henry Baldwin in the Army neither British nor Irish Militia.
On all census records for England, Dora is shown as being born in Cork Ireland around 1844/5. = 1871 Somerset, 1881 Chorlton Upon Medlock, Manchester, and 1891 Manchester.
Dora and Thomas had 7 children in total. James Henry, Thomas Pyle, Ellen Elizabeth, William Baldwin, Godfrey, Reginald and Edith. Three (underlined) of them where born in Cork Ireland between 1872-1876. Then they moved to Chorlton Upon Medlock, Manchester.
In our family we had a story that Dora had a sister called Catherine/Kat and that she lived in Manchester. My cousin found an old funeral card for a Mary Baldwin who died in 22/03/1897 in Liverpool. On her death certificate it says she was 36 = b 1861 and her sister Catherine was present at the death. (Copy in my possession)
I have now found both Catherine and Mary Baldwin in both 1881 and 1891 census, living in Chorlton On Medlock although birth dates vary slightly Catherine 1855/58 and Mary 1858/1861. It says they were both living off an Annuity and they where born in South Ireland.
Refer back to Elizabeth’s Marriage certificate. Catherine Baldwin and Thomas Gould witnessed the wedding and Elizabeth was living in the next street to Catherine and Mary before she got married.
In my opinion this connects Elizabeth, Catherine and Mary to my Dora whether it be a sisters or very close relation is the dilemma.
It’s also worth bearing in mind that I believe Dora and Thomas could have christened their first male and female children after grandparents.
James Henry= James Gould Grandfather a Henry Baldwin?
Ellen Elizabeth = Elizabeth Gould Grandmother and Ellen??
Also I have always believed there was some connection with the other names of their children. William Baldwin and Godfrey. (Ref to Burkes landed gentry) Godfrey Baldwin b 1812 was the 5th son of William Lissarda and didn’t die until 1877; he was a captain in the Army. It’s also interesting that the first William Baldwin b 1836/7 christened his first son Godfrey. Before anyone’s suggests Godfrey could be the father, he was married to an Anna Louisa and lived in Bandon they had 11 children all baptized at Bandon Church of Ireland ‘Christchurch’. We have seen these records and there are no references to the above children
So you see not only is a HUGE puzzle but a bit of a mess as far as the connections!!!
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