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For completeness I have updated some details of the Norman's

1. I have sent another Email to the http://website.lineone.net/ site seeking the source of their BDM data on Malta information but as yet I have not received a reply.

2. I have revisited the Public Records Office and re-examined the available Male & Female patients case books for the Ballarat - Sunbury asylums for the period that Emily Norman was there (1906 - 1907) but again no success, the record books are incomplete and overlap to some extent. Her name appears on the Male index but the Male case books are incomplete with at least one missing volume for that period where I presume her details would be if the index is accurate.

3. Looked up William Norman's Jnr's railway station master postings in "Rigg of The Railways" ISBN 0646415395 which is the most complete and readily available listing and it only lists his posting to Brunswick station on the 28/7/1902, it lists his DOB as 30/10/1847 compared to the site on Malta that lists his birth as the 30/10/1845? The Rigg book is not complete so William may well have been the station master at Cheltenham at some stage. I'm quite sure though that the William Norman listed as executor to Stephen Wise's Will is the same person.

4. I note from LDS " FamilySearch" that William Norman had two other brothers also born in Deptford, John in 1804 and James in 1806. Only the 1851 census lists any of the Normans and that is James who is living at Chatham, is a Widower and works as a "Baker Journeyman", so the baker occupation seems a strong link. William Norman's parents being John Norman and Sarah Wilson as stated on his death certificate.

5. There is a John Norman who dies at Inglewood in North West Victoria in 1890 whose DOB is 1804-1805 born London that is a good candidate to be William Norman's brother.  John Norman died a bachelor with no known details other than he was born in London.

I think that the absence of any other DBM information for Emily Harriett Norman makes the Emily Norman who died at Ballarat a good candidate to be the family member but I don't think that I will be able to obtain any further conclusive evidence unless someone else at some future time claims to be a descendant.

Once again many thanks to all for the excellent work over the past two weeks in tracking down the Wise family connections and the fact that Eliza Haynes sister  Harriett also emigrated to Australia.

best regards  ....... Frank

Thanks for picking up my error, I was looking at the wrong date for Harriett Haynes, so Eliza and Harriett were sisters it seems, Eliza's son William may not have really known what occupation/profession his mother's father had so we can't read too much into "Carpenter" on Eliza'a death entry.

I've been away from Melbourne up country for a couple of days and I'm truly amazed at the work that has been going and have quite a lot to take in, many thanks to Sparrett, Judb, Essie, Merlin and Jorose.

1. I ruled out the Loraine Emily  being Emily Harriett Norman after looking into her background and the parents names but the Loraine & Wise connection was unexpected.

2. I was sceptical to say the least about the witness being WISE but now having had a long look at the 1896 probate records I must agree with Sparrett that the witness in 1871 to William & Catherine's marriage was most likely Emily Harriet Wise, given that there are some 25 years between signatures there are some striking similarities,  the "i" being dotted above the "s", the tail on the letter "e" and the ornamental letter "H". I'm certainly glad that I inserted the signature as I would be still "barking up the wrong tree" looking for Weirs. Thanks to Cando, Jennaya & Joyful for casting doubt on Weir and pointing to Wise.

3. Both Bethanga & Wangaratta  are in close proximity to Beechworth in North Eastern Victoria so if Emily Harriet Wise was in either place in 1871 then she didn't have far to travel (by Aus standards), certainly she was of the right age being born in 1851 - 1852 (age at death 58 in 1910 according to Vic BDM) thanks Essie .

4. The link to Malta through Stephen Wise and possibly the same Haynes family as Eliza is remarkable but it all  makes sense and that Emily Harriet Wise was no random witness if she was indeed the witness.

Eliza Norman's son William stated in the ledger entry for the death that the Eliza's father's name was JOHN and that his profession was a CARPENTER, Eliza's mother's name was not known. It was stated that Eliza was born in London although why she and William Norman were married in Derbyshire is still a mystery but the marriage in Derbyshire is stated in the death entry and there is a marriage in the LDS FamilySearch that matches this well.

Not knowing Eliza's mother's name makes it hard to link other possible siblings but the Maltese connection seems to point to Harriet Haynes being either Eliza's sister or a close relation.  According to Eliza Haynes death entry she was aged 56 when she died on the 13/7/1878 making her DOB around 1821 - 1822. Harriet Haynes was born in 1847 so some 25 - 26 years after Eliza so not likely to be her sister but possibly a cousin.

Eliza Haynes was buried in a pauper's grave at Beechworth in 1878 and some 20 years later a former male patient from the May Day Hills asylum was buried on top of her.

Because the father and son both have the name William and no middle name I surmised that it was William Jnr who was definitely living around Beechworth in the 1870's that admitted his mother to the Beechworth asylum and whose stated occupation was "letter Poster" and "Bell Ringer" but it could well be the father William.

5. Back to the Emily Norman who seems to have been given the "run around" of Victoria's mental system circa early 1900's.

Thank you Jorose for this work and I hope you haven't blown your Internet download limit as these old files are big, not to mention difficult to read.

It certainly seems plausible that the Emily Norman who entered Kew asylum (presumably Willsmere, now up market private apartments) is the family Emily Harriett Norman, her estimated/stated age was 50 in 1905 at Kew which makes her 7 years younger than the family Emily and 52 in 1907 at Ballarat but the Ballarat record of her age would have been based upon the admission record at Kew. The case book at Beechworth states that she did not speak much and that there were no known relatives so her true age would be doubtful.

I will now go back to the Public Records Office in North Melbourne and look again to see if I can find the case book  from Ballarat that holds Emily Norman's details before her death there in 1907, it may provide some final clue but given the death certificate stated all her details were unknown then I'm not holding my breath.

The Norman's may not have been all that close as a family as there are no mention of siblings in the few newspaper family notices (Trove) of  William Jnr's death before his sister Jessie and no notices that I can find for Eliza or William Snr.

I also have copies of William Jnr's Will from 1915 and there is no mention of anyone other than his wife and children and there is no mention of Norman's in Catherine Norman's (nee McKinley, William Jnr's wife) Will either.

Incidentally as you will all know copies of the AGE newspaper are not available via Trove (they are available at the Vic State Library on microfilm) but many copies (some in better condition than the State Library Vic) can be found at  http://news.google.com/newspapers but have not been OCR converted.

Hello Sue;

The Emily H Weir is almost as enigmatic as the Emily H Norman!

I've gone through all the possible Emily, and Emma H Weir's without any success either, given the other Weir's in my family I'm still sure that there is a connection and Les Horn in the UK has been helping me with the Weirs but so far nothing.

I'm not one to "run up the white flag" too early and I only post on  forums seeking help when I really feel I'm running out of options.

It looks like I'll just have to pay the $A31 to get a copy of the death entry for Emily Weir who died at Woonona in NSW in 1898 and failing that the Emily Weir who died at Northampton WA in 1946 (although this is a longshot) as these look like the only possibilities at this stage, there are no newspaper entries that I can find that shed any light on these Emily Weirs.

I've attached a JPEG of the Emily H Weir signature on William's marriage entry 1871 and an example of an ornamental letter H, so I'm pretty sure that the middle initial is the letter H.