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Hi,
Is anyone soon visiting Kent History Centre in Maidstone and can do a look up for me on the Tonbridge Workhouse records?
I know that 4 members of my family were in the Tonbridge Workhouse in 1861, but need to know when they arrived and when they left or died as inmates.
Their Surnames - father and children - are recorded on 1861 as Vinall:  they arrived after 1851 census and had gone before 1871.
Stephen (61) - may have d. 1862
Stephen (15) - may have d. 1868
Richard (14) - known to have left as he marries in 1868
Eliza (11) - ?
Additionally, they may have been admitted in the 1850's with their mother (Kezia or Maria) and a further daughter Elizabeth.

If anyone can help.... many thanks.

Hi Maria,
I do also have another daughter of Robert, a Sarah Burgess b.1725.  I thought she may have married a Jacob - poss a Fleet marriage - but the marriage you found brings up other possibilities!
I copy below the Quitclaim fyi.

Kind Regards

Steve

" Quitclaim. Consideration: £24 each  WHL/206  2 Feb. 1781
Contents:
Robert Burgess of St. Saviour's, co. Surr., butcher, John Burgess of Hartfield, butcher, Mary Burgess of St. Margarets, Westminster, spinster, Sarah Jacob of St. Clements, co. Middsx., wid., Thomas Wickens of Sevenoaks, co. Kent, servant, Martha Malyan, w. of John Malyan of Cursitor St., Chancery Lane, London, Innholder, James Holmes of Tonbridge, co. Kent, farmer, and Edward Hitchcock of Penshurst, co. Kent, tailor, (children of the late sisters of Stephen Wheeler) to Henry Stone
Shares in legacy of Stephen Wheeler, as WHL/198"

Thanks Miriamkinga, but that is also what I found on SMI.
What I need is the detail from the licence.... age of groom, bondsmen etc.
Have you access to the microfiche of the original licence?

Hi Katlady,
I can only find an Elizabeth b1826 and with a totally different Dumbrell family in Brighton in 1841.
I've checked on Ancestry and Familysearch, using Eliza* D?mbr?l*.
Plse let us know where you saw your Eliza.
There's nothing in the census guidelines that dictates the order of the individuals in the household except that the Head is listed first.  But I agree that usually it's in age-descending order.

Regards

Hi Katday,

I trust you received the scan of young John's birth cert OK.

I set out below all the facts I can unearth to help you with your quest.

Some facts to add from parish registers:
Lindfield parish register:
Charity Watford baptised 23.11.1806 parents Charles and Fanny
Cuckfield parish register:
Catherine Watford baptised 12.10.1823 mother Charity, illegitimate
Stephen Watford baptised 26.02.1826 mother Charity, illegitimate
John Dumbrell m. Charity Watford 02.12.1826
Mary Dumbrell baptised 20.01.1828 mother Charity Dumbrell father John Dumbrell labourer

No baptism recorded for any of the other children.

I can find no further record of Catherine within censuses, although she may have married in Brighton, 1847.
Stephen is on the 1841 census, living in Cuckfield, working as a shoemaker.
Living in household where head is a shoemaker.
(Coincidence? - James Dumbrell in 1851 census was a cordwainer=shoemaker)

As to the 1841 census for Charity, I am at a loss to understand it.
Regards age of the 2nd John: if the recorder followed the instructions  http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/census/1841directions.htm
then a 19 y/o should have been written as 15.  And where is the John b.Nov 1838?
Looking through the 21 pages of that book, I cannot see anywhere else a child of age 16,17,18 or 19, all the adults have ages that are multiples of 5, so I think the recorder was aware of the rules and followed them.  The only other possible 9 y/o in the house would be Tryphena (see below).

Apart from the death of Hope, deportation of Mary, and Sophia (Sophy m. John Trusler, Brighton 1846, father's name John), the other girls Josephina and Charlotte are not in later censuses or on deah records. But in 1851 there is a Tryphena Dumbrell aged 19 in service in Brighton.  Gives birthplace as Lindfield. Marries Samuel Moore in Brighton in 1856, giving her father's name as John.  If she was a daughter of Charity, then either Charity had surviving twins or Josephina changed her name to Tryphena.

As to the John aged 55-59 in 1841 (so born 1781-1786), parish records show
Jevington 1784 son of John Pitchar/Sarah Dumbrill, bastard
Fletching 1783 son of Thomas and Anne Dumbrill
Rottingdean 1781 son of Richard and Elizabeth Dumbrel
Horsted Keynes 1783 son of Thomas and Mary Dumbrell

Subsequent relevant deaths of a John in Sussex 1841-1881
Burial Crawley Down 1861 age 60 reg at E.Grinstead
(SFHG have not yet transcribed any headstone info from that Cemetery)

I have no access to Tonbridge or London/Surrey records to look for the birth of a James Dumbrell b.1811
There are no deaths of a relevant-age James in Sussex 1861-1891.

I regret that beyond stating the facts from data I can access, I cannot further help to determine "who is John father of Mary?".

Regards